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Jayy
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PostPosted: 04:25 - 07 Feb 2018    Post subject: 4K HDR Reply with quote

What do you think of it?

There's games available that utilise it, loads of films and TV shows also but do you actually take full advantage of it or is it more of a gimmick?

Find myself fucking about with HDR even on things which aren't HDR ready, just so it makes the colours pop and seem way more surreal.

Mad Max Fury Road is a great example of this... looks fucking made with all the HDR settings turned on, like a completely different film and I don't have a HDR version of it, just 4K.
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 09:50 - 07 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

HDR is a black art. There is no real standard in broadcasting for HDR, and there are two competing standards with TVs. I won't trust it until the standards are a bit more settled.

Personally I've only just got a 1080p TV, and have been considering 4k, but I don't think it's worth it at this stage. When you can get a decent sized 4k TV for 300 I'll consider it.
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andym
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PostPosted: 11:03 - 07 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is the point in all of this technology?

It's starting to seem like the Daz doorstep challenge, hold up 2 grubby white shirts, waft one through some dirty water and the other is bleached and compare them. Oh but wait, the previous product only got them to a grey shade, this new formula gets them white.... until the next product etc etc etc.

Being from the older generation I grew up with CRT TV's and never really gave it much thought, watching videos on VHS and my dad playing something like Beastmaster to clean the heads because Die Hard had several lines and the tracking wouldn't sort it Rolling Eyes

In my early days of using PC's I had an old CRT monitor that was always set on 1600x1200, but the games would drop down to 640x480.... and some how still looked decent.

Skip forward quite a few years and I had my first dual screen setup with 2 1920x1080 displays and even though I thought it was the mutts nuts back then (because it allowed me to mess around with 3DS Max and have real time texture updating with Photoshop on the other screen), after 5 years one of the screens developed problems, the second soon after.... so I ended up with a 32 inch 1080p LCD TV for my monitor.... which was all well and good, I missed being able to do 2 jobs at once without Alt+Tab'ing between programs, so I got more into gaming after that.

I've played many games over the years, and one that stands out was MW2 as the graphics were amazing (but then GTA 3 looked amazing at the time, and so did GTA IV etc), now I have GTA 4 and 5 on the PS3 and playing 4 it looks like the contrast has been turned up far too high (still looked good at the time).

I guess what I'm trying to say is if you want to see everything looking ultra-realistic then stop staring at a TV/Monitor and go out and look at shit.

It took me several years to buy into the whole HD thing, I don't see the point in 4k TVs (and why would anyone need a 4k phone screen?), yet, but maybe when 1080 is as outdated as CRT then I'll think about it.... but I'm just stuck in my old fashioned ways


TL;DR: waffle waffle, don't see the point in 4k let alone 4k HDR
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 11:13 - 07 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

andym wrote:
I guess what I'm trying to say is if you want to see everything looking ultra-realistic then stop staring at a TV/Monitor and go out and look at shit.

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doggone
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PostPosted: 11:14 - 07 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bitrates will be the next big thing they will want to update.
1080p at 100bits can look better than 4K at under 60, which most feeds can't manage yet.
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 11:25 - 07 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's mostly marketing driving us to wanting it, as we dont need it.
There is solid tech behind it all so you're not getting scammed like we do on washing powders. I'm sure in 1985 the Persil adverts claimed it got rid of all stains and made your whites white, but ever since, they have improved it many times. Was the 85 Persil that bad then? No.

It's not the same with TV tech, as you can actually side by side them, but I remember DVD being advertised as 'Realistic' and I thought it was. Then came HD and pow! DVD was now shit and hurting my eyes. Yeah 4K is nicer and 3D is well, 3D. I'm not convinced with 3D, my life is in 3D, watching TV in 3D isn't a huge leap for me. Anyhow, I dont even own a 4K TV yet, no need for one. I have an HDTV with 3D, it's perfectly fine for me and not once have I thought the picture is so bad that I need to change it. It looks crisp and clear to me. This is mostly because very little is broadcast in 4K, so I will more than likely have a 4K TV when it is the norm.

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Last edited by Pjay on 11:25 - 07 Feb 2018; edited 1 time in total
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Paddy.
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PostPosted: 11:25 - 07 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

4K doesn't give me much better viewing than 1080p, but I also don't have HDR enabled, because it made it look too 'in your face'

Currently my monitor runs the PC and Xbox at 4k and that's all I really need it for. It makes a difference to the Xbox, not so much the pc. Films look the same on both.
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Jayy
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PostPosted: 17:35 - 07 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's seriously impressive if you're watching the right content.

Planet Earth 2 in 4K HDR looks incredible Vs watching it in 1080p

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-42225220

4K on phones is not about watching true 1:1, it's more for the retina display and making everything look super sharp. When you design websites, you can display retina graphics to users with displays like that, so everything looks much much better to them.
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Jayy
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PostPosted: 17:43 - 07 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:
4K is nicer and 3D is well, 3D. I'm not convinced with 3D, my life is in 3D, watching TV in 3D isn't a huge leap for me. Anyhow, I dont even own a 4K TV yet, no need for one. I have an HDTV with 3D, it's perfectly fine for me and not once have I thought the picture is so bad that I need to change it.


The BEST 3D I have ever seen is in Virtual Reality by far.

I had a 3D projector and that was cool but the effect was slightly gimmicky.

Put on my HTC Vive and load up any of the decent cinema apps (Bigscreen Beta, Virtual Desktop, etc) and whack a 1080p SBS 3D bluray on and fuck me does it look cool as penguin piss.
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 11:16 - 08 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

doggone wrote:
Bitrates will be the next big thing they will want to update.
1080p at 100bits can look better than 4K at under 60, which most feeds can't manage yet.


That's basically what the company I work for does. Incidentally, Planet Earth 4k was transcoded for iPlayer by a tool that I cannot confirm or deny was produced by a company that I may work for right now.

It's stressful and hard but sometimes to see the fruits of your labour is quite nice.

A bit of background. As has started with the MPEG and MPEG2 standards, generally as long as the bitstream is decodable by the standards body created standard decoder, you can do what you like to compress it. You can emphasise certain areas or take bits away from areas that aren't as important to the human eye. That's why some compression vendors have better video quality than others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Efficiency_Video_Coding

Bit rate is not the be all and end all too, if you throw more bitrate at something it doesn't necessarily improve VQ. In most cases it does, but often it does not.

Video compression is a massive growth industry.
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 11:20 - 08 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paddy. wrote:
4K doesn't give me much better viewing than 1080p, but I also don't have HDR enabled, because it made it look too 'in your face'

Currently my monitor runs the PC and Xbox at 4k and that's all I really need it for. It makes a difference to the Xbox, not so much the pc. Films look the same on both.


4k is basically pointless until the pixels are large enough to be retina sized as I understand it, which means you need an enormous 4k TV to get the benefit. I'm also told by some industry experts that 4k without HDR is basically pointless too.

Also bear in mind that upscaling algorithms are not that great right now, so the only way to see decent content is to see it natively in 4k from end to end, which means a 4k Blu Ray or Xbox One S or whatever.
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Jayy
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PostPosted: 16:44 - 08 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarJay wrote:

4k is basically pointless until the pixels are large enough to be retina sized as I understand it, which means you need an enormous 4k TV to get the benefit. I'm also told by some industry experts that 4k without HDR is basically pointless too.


I have 4K monitors... viewing standard 4K content on them doesn't look much better than 2560x1440 on one of my monitors. I have tried running the same content side by side and it's pretty much un-noticable and they are 30" monitors.

However... I have a 4K HDR projector, not an upscaling 1080p one, true 4K HDR and it looks fucking nuts Vs the monitors but the screen is 145 inch so I'm seeing that shit at 1:1 ratio.

http://i.imgur.com/pxt2rE3.jpg
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recman
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PostPosted: 22:58 - 08 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

My sister-in-law has 4k telly.
All I know is that it makes everything look better than my 1080p tv.
Its not a priority to get one at the moment but my next living room tv will be 4k.
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chris-red
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PostPosted: 00:21 - 10 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I went from a 6 year old LG 42" 1080p to a Panasonic 50" 4k HDR.

The resolution difference wasn't all that noticeable but the quality of the newer panel was epic, the colours are much better, the blacks look so much nicer. HDR looks great and is really good for gaming.

I also bought a cheap LG 32" 1080p about 2 years ago, even that the panel was noticeably better than the older 42", despite the 42" being upper mid range and the 32" being bottom of the range.
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recman
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PostPosted: 08:57 - 10 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

chris-red wrote:
I went from a 6 year old LG 42" 1080p to a Panasonic 50" 4k HDR.

...the blacks look so much nicer.


I knew it. LG is racist.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 18:06 - 10 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarJay wrote:
Also bear in mind that upscaling algorithms are not that great right now, so the only way to see decent content is to see it natively in 4k from end to end, which means a 4k Blu Ray or Xbox One S or whatever.

So not a PS4 Pro?















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MarJay
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PostPosted: 17:13 - 11 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
So not a PS4 Pro?


Covered by the 'or whatever'. It's obviously for professionals only! Wink
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Ste
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PostPosted: 17:36 - 11 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jayy wrote:
Monitors... viewing standard 4K content on them doesn't look much better than 2560x1440 on one of my monitors. I have tried running the same content side by side and it's pretty much un-noticable and they are 30" monitors.

What you need is a Dell Ultrasharp.

http://www1.euro.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/dell-u3818dw-monitor?c=uk&cs=ukbsdt1&l=en&s=bsd

Drooling
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Hong Kong Phooey
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PostPosted: 17:44 - 11 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've stood in Currys/PCW whatever and looked at the TV's side by side before deciding which to buy. It's not so easy to judge sound quality in store though, so I'll usually check online reviews for that aspect.

I'm not in the market for a TV right now, but looking at the OLED model family, it was clear which are going to give the best contrast ratios from a hardware perspective, regardless of being branded HDR or not. Truly astounding, but saw the price and winced a lot.

Other than panel technology, the 'cheaper' branded hardware doesn't seem to handle signal decoding (as a general rule) as well as Sony, Samsung etc, with a noticeable blur on fast motion or artifacts from decompression become more apparent.

Seems like you get roughly what you pay for, hoping 4K OLED has come down in price when my existing tv goes kaput.
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Stevie GooGs
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PostPosted: 22:12 - 11 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

To give you an example i shoot in 4k Apple Pro Res when using the drone, it can do 5.2 which is fecking lovely but its a bastard to edit and no one wants it.

Look at a game of football (I'm not a fan) however it looks shite in standard def now, HD looks sharp. Unless our broadband improves massively i think 4k and larger is going to take longer to become the norm.

There are cameras recording in 8k at the moment, below gives you an idea of up to 5.2k

http://www2.djicdn.com/assets/images/service/dji-license/license-s2-sea-8ca09f13794f1bb996371b568e407350.jpg
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Jayy
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PostPosted: 02:20 - 12 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ste wrote:


I'd get one of them for designing on but I fucking DESPISE 21:9 as a ratio. Have had monitors which were super wide and hated them.

Stevie GooGs wrote:

There are cameras recording in 8k at the moment, below gives you an idea of up to 5.2k


They say a normal cinema is about 8K in resolution and most movie cameras are about 8K in resolution too with the original film, for pretty much the last 100 odd years. Seems mad that you could watch Gone with the wind (1939) in 4-8k but we simply didn't have the consumer screens with the resolution at affordable prices.

It's also about right that IMAX cinemas are around 16K in resolution.
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Stevie GooGs
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PostPosted: 12:05 - 12 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah very much so Jayy, consumer tech just is not up to scratch and major factor now is streaming and bandwidth.
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chris-red
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PostPosted: 12:19 - 12 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Disagree RE the Bandwidth

A quick google suggests Bandwidth needed for 4k is 15-20Mbps

Virgin's lowest fibre speed is 50Mbps BT's is (Upto) 52Mbps

Over 24Mbps is available to 95% of people.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/superfast-broadband-now-available-to-more-than-19-out-of-20-uk-homes-and-businesses

It's there if you want it.
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Jayy
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PostPosted: 15:51 - 12 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

chris-red wrote:
Disagree RE the Bandwidth

A quick google suggests Bandwidth needed for 4k is 15-20Mbps

Virgin's lowest fibre speed is 50Mbps BT's is (Upto) 52Mbps

Over 24Mbps is available to 95% of people.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/superfast-broadband-now-available-to-more-than-19-out-of-20-uk-homes-and-businesses

It's there if you want it.


If you're wired in you will have no issues hitting your connections limits but the majority of people aren't anywhere near their full internet speeds due to them not giving a shit and using WiFi.

The amount of people I know who complain their internet isn't fast enough but they're about 200ft from their router with a weak as shit WiFi signal.

That said... 4K compressed on YouTube is a bit different to 4K untouched bluray.

Some of my 4K HDR files are 180gb each... you'd struggle to stream that even on a 50mbit connection.
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Paddy.
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PostPosted: 17:02 - 12 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

My entire connection is provided wirelessly, as in I have an AP on my house which talks across the road to our works offices.

Some wireless is fine. I get a solid 500MB connection with 0ms point to point, I'm then wired internally.

Internal shitty routers will cause issues, and devices that are aids, such as consoles, will never have great connections over wireless. However, streaming 4K from Netflix seemed perfectly fine on my One X, so I'd be wanting at least 50MB and wired if I was ever going for that set up again.
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