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Hey Stooodent! tuition fees/loans blah blah

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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 20:39 - 19 Feb 2018    Post subject: Hey Stooodent! tuition fees/loans blah blah Reply with quote

Who's actually paying for our universities? The "loan" is b0lloks its a cheap teensy weensy tax. But meanwhile the actual cash for providing Universities must come from somewhere. I suspect my taxes.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 20:44 - 19 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's actually my taxes. But I'm not selfish. I feel that an education should be free.
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Johnnythefox
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PostPosted: 20:44 - 19 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

where else?
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 20:47 - 19 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Who's actually paying for our universities? The "loan" is b0lloks its a cheap teensy weensy tax. But meanwhile the actual cash for providing Universities must come from somewhere. I suspect my taxes.



https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/-/media/boe/files/quarterly-bulletin/2014/money-creation-in-the-modern-economy.pdf

Quote:
Whenever a bank makes a loan, it simultaneously creates a matching deposit in the borrower’s bank account, thereby creating new money.


Therefore a student loan is created. And a counter entry is created on a bank balance sheet. How does it work? It works because of a suspension of disbelief and also that very few people are willing or able to get the banks and the financial system to show their hand.

Soros managed it twice.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 20:53 - 19 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arts students are funding STEM courses so they reckon, because resourcing a Chemistry degree costs more than a History of Arts course, for example. They ignore the fact that STEM will contribute more to the nation's economy. Probably simply unaware.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 20:59 - 19 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
I feel that an education should be free.

Liberal Arts

Global Liberal Arts

Liberal Studies (Media and Communications)

Liberal Studies (Public Relations)

Liberal Studies (English)

Liberal Studies (Political Science)

Liberal Studies (Psychology)

Liberal Studies (International Relations)

Liberal Studies (History)

Creative Expressive Therapies


Those aren't education, they're political indoctrination.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 21:17 - 19 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
Arts students are funding STEM courses so they reckon, because resourcing a Chemistry degree costs more than a History of Arts course, for example. They ignore the fact that STEM will contribute more to the nation's economy. Probably simply unaware.


Laughing Laughing Laughing

150 years ago reading and writing was a premium skill. One could get a considerable amount of pay for merely being able to read and write. Then everybody knew how to read and write. Therefore being able to read and write is a base line skill. Nobody sticks on their CV I can read and write. It's considered a default ability and therefore attracts no premium.

Too long ago to be considered applicable?

20 years ago the ability to use a computer was considered a premium skill. One could get a considerable amount of pay for merely being able to use computer things. Then everybody knew use computers. Therefore being able to use computers is a base line skill. Nobody sticks on their CV they've got a CLAIT . It's considered a default ability and therefore attracts no premium.

Sort of like when you buy a new car you expect there to be 4 wheels, airbags and ABS brakes manufacturers can't charge premium because they're expected as default and standard.

So what happens when everybody gets a STEM degree?
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 21:23 - 19 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, that would be a disaster wouldn't it. What happens when everyone gets an arts degree?
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 21:29 - 19 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
Yeah, that would be a disaster wouldn't it.


For STEM wages absolutely. For the betterment of society no primarily because what works for the individual does not work if everybody does it.

The massive irony though of course is if everybody did STEM degrees except for a few who did the arts... those would be the ones in short supply.

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
What happens when everyone gets an arts degree?


The pay in those sectors drops quite a lot and those who do not study those sectors get higher pay.
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Tracey Suntan-King
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PostPosted: 21:31 - 19 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a parent of one graduate and one undergraduate I don't have a problem with the way higher education is paid for.

I had mine "for free" but went on to earn a lot and therefore paid a (bleedin) lot of tax during my career. I reckon I've paid for my education several times over.

My kids have had loans and their final "debts" will be in the tens of thousands.

However, I don't see this as debt per se. It is only repayable under strict criteria (hitting a prescribed earning level) so they will pay a higher "tax" once they earn +£21,000 and won't notice the money going out. They may never pay it all back as any balance is written off after 30 years, just in time for them to be paying my care home fees.

So, whatever creative public accounting is being applied, we all in the end, pay for higher education.

I'd just like to add though, that though I love them dearly, whatever method is used to pay for their higher education it was worth EVERY penny to get them out of my house and into independent lives of their own.........so far.......
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 21:36 - 19 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
So what happens when everybody gets a STEM degree?

All of the very best intellects get STEM degrees and contribute to the betterment of humanity, with none of them wasting their potential doing History of Ethno Victimhood.

The same argument works backwards. If there's no point in everyone doing STEM, then there's no point in everyone being computer literate, or langwage litrut. You don't need that to pick potatoes or mine fatbergs in sewers, right?

Once we've cut all funding to the "arts" and "humanities", then we can start cutting back on STEM funding for the lesser minds.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 21:44 - 19 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:


The same argument works backwards. If there's no point in everyone doing STEM, then there's no point in everyone being computer literate, or langwage litrut.


As I said above it's good for society overall. But all of a sudden it becomes a base line standard thus eliminates any premium. So in a twist of irony some of those best minds may well study something else.

Big finance today for instance hoovers (or your chosen vacuum cleaner brand) up loads of STEM grads because comparatively the betterment for society jobs don't pay as well.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 22:08 - 19 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
So what happens when everybody gets a STEM degree?

The STEM degrees won't all be equal.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 22:08 - 19 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was thinking of the likely societal benefits rather than the personal gains but yes, sad but true, currently the British economy is significantly based upon recruiting smart young people to gamble on the labours of others or the fluctuations in commodities. It rewards those smart young people more than they'd get by applying themselves to STEM jobs which could advance humanity, and denudes the scientific/engineering base on which our long-term future depends. There's an important place for arts in a strong society, but we need to maintain that strength first.
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asta1
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PostPosted: 22:33 - 19 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

The trouble is that it is financially very difficult to get into 'proper' STEM science, and that even if you do there is no real monetary reward at the end.

I was recently offered a job as a lab tech (usual starting role for those who wish to progress to a PhD in certain fields) for a research group doing x ray crystallography of photosynthetic enzymes. Was an interesting job working in a topic I care about.

Did I consider it? Fuck no. £17,500pa (part time) living in London for three years at which point you may be allowed to progress to their PhD fast stream which may eventually pay up to £40,000? Not a chance.

Why would anyone even consider that as a career unless they were already financially well off and the money didn't matter anyway? Seems to me science generally is drifting back to the old 'Gentleman of Science' model of the 1800s where only the rich can really afford to do it.

Me, I'm off to a well paying job with good career prospects in a cheap part of the country making beer. Is it science? Not really. Does it contribute greatly to humanity? Not much. Will it allow me to accumulate sufficient assets so I can afford to die? Yup.

I can understand why STEM people go into finance, we're all leaving with a shit ton of debt (your money or no, that's a £45,000 weight on our shoulders) and the pressure to scrimp for houses etc. Altruism only goes so far in the real world.
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SDFarsight
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PostPosted: 00:04 - 20 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Those aren't education, they're political indoctrination.


It can be very educational. The trick is to not become distracted from the technical stuff while the lecturer is trying to sign you up for an outing to the Gaza Strip.

Guest activist: "This students, is a model of an American drone. It's used to blow up orphanages indiscriminately; all in the name of the capitalist empire."

Me: "Oh is that MQ-1A Predator in high-quality resin? I've got a JU87 at the moment and I was looking at expanding my collection with something more modern. Wow they've put excellent detail on the Hellfires. Do you have an MQ-9 Reaper too??"
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M.C
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PostPosted: 00:53 - 20 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
So what happens when everybody gets a STEM degree?

It wouldn't happen, the mouth breathers wouldn't get on the course let alone gain a degree. They do get on other degree courses and end up working in Tesco afterwards, which's a bad investment for the tax payer (I think the repayment threshold is going up to 25k), and a waste of time for the individual.

Education has always been about the 'quality' (so where/what you studied). Kids leaving school with ~10 GCSEs isn't uncommon, nor with further education now being compulsory will attaining A Levels etc. be.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 02:55 - 20 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tracey Suntan-King wrote:
As a parent of one graduate and one undergraduate .................................

....................to get them out of my house and into independent lives of their own.........so far.......


They always come back. Like Blackadders boomerang, when you least expect them. Twisted Evil
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 10:52 - 20 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
. I feel that an education should be free.


If it was used to educate people further and improve their career prospects, instead of the growing numbers who use it to dodge work for a few more years (or decades for some), then I'd agree.

There are now too many people going to University, who are as thick as pig shit and will never be much use to society other than spending other people's money for their own existence.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 11:04 - 20 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
Nobby the Bastard wrote:
. I feel that an education should be free.


If it was used to educate people further and improve their career prospects, instead of the growing numbers who use it to dodge work for a few more years (or decades for some), then I'd agree.

There are now too many people going to University, who are as thick as pig shit and will never be much use to society other than spending other people's money for their own existence.


A big problem now is major companies won't employ young people in jobs of any standing unless they have degrees.

My old company, Shell Transport and Trading would only employ people in the management route with a degree. Employ them young and then mould them into how they wanted them to be. But they had to have a degree.

It's all paperwork nowadays just to get a foot in the door. Vocational training seems to have been diluted down to pretty well waste of space status.
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Loui5D
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PostPosted: 12:06 - 20 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my opinion, at the end of the day a degree is just a piece of paper with words scribbled on it. it means you can pass a test, not that you actually understand the subject.

having a load of knowledge is useless if you are not able to apply it.

Then again i am biased, i saw the shitshow with Uni's coming a while back which is why i went into an apprenticeship in IT.
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 14:48 - 20 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
It's actually my taxes. But I'm not selfish. I feel that an education should be free.


Is it education though? It looks more like an expensive white elephant of a left over Thatcher era social engineering project designed to expand the right leaning middle class.
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 14:56 - 20 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

asta1 wrote:
.



Me, I'm off to a well paying job with good career prospects in a cheap part of the country making beer. Is it science? Not really. Does it contribute greatly to humanity? Not much.

.


Lets face it. Science ultimately is only beneficial to the minority rich who will be able to buy a ticket on the galactic star cruiser that science will make possible that will be needed so the Trumps etc of the future can escape the earth's eventual demise. Seems to me making beer for the rest of us is wholly more beneficial for much of humanity than pure science.
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 15:00 - 20 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
magical bsnking wizadry


I didn't really mean to that depth. More in the day to day accounts sense.

Im thinking the whole "Uni" thing is a middle class version of subsidised industries naking useless widgets as inefficiently as possible just to give the masses something to do.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 15:38 - 20 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
A big problem now is major companies won't employ young people in jobs of any standing unless they have degrees.

My old company, Shell Transport and Trading would only employ people in the management route with a degree. Employ them young and then mould them into how they wanted them to be. But they had to have a degree.

It's all paperwork nowadays just to get a foot in the door. Vocational training seems to have been diluted down to pretty well waste of space status.

What grinds my gears is when it's any degree rather than a degree relevant to the field. We get graduates at work 'shadowing' us, basically slumming it with the proles for a day before they go onto make bad decisions at management level. They aren't any different except they speak a bit more proper.

Loui5D wrote:
In my opinion, at the end of the day a degree is just a piece of paper with words scribbled on it. it means you can pass a test, not that you actually understand the subject.

having a load of knowledge is useless if you are not able to apply it.

Then again i am biased, i saw the shitshow with Uni's coming a while back which is why i went into an apprenticeship in IT.

I came of age when modern apprenticeships were being relaunched and actually went for an 'IT apprenticeship'. There was zero training involved, it was full time for zero pay, except £5 a day for lunch Eh? They cottoned onto this and introduced the apprentice wage a few years later (£3.50 I think).
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