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Whats going on on the 600 seen or lack of it??

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Jaybone
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PostPosted: 18:31 - 22 Feb 2018    Post subject: Whats going on on the 600 seen or lack of it?? Reply with quote

Afternoon peeps,

You've probabley been asked this question thousands of times now by new and more experienced riders(cough old gits Laughing ) but what is going on with the 600 sports bike scene?? I've recently passed my DAS and now being able too purchase any bike I see fit, there seems to be a shortage of new 600's and a shedload of expensive secondhand 600's.
Now my dilemma is do I shell out for the expense of the 600 which when checking the insurance (these kind people cough w*nkers cough seem to be on the ball) doesn't seem to be a lot cheaper than going for a 750 or a 1000.
I know what peoples vues are on new riders getting big bikes but I'm not inexperienced to riding and I'm fully aware there is only 1 D*ick who controls the throttle.
But what do I do??


Cheers for listening
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 19:08 - 22 Feb 2018    Post subject: Re: Whats going on on the 600 seen or lack of it?? Reply with quote

Jaybone wrote:
But what do I do??

Fireblade.
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grr666
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PostPosted: 20:58 - 22 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bought a 650 twin after passing DAS, it was okay but not all that thrilling. I'm too old for hunched over a sportbike
so when I decided to change the 650 I got an upright naked 850 triple instead (which weighs less than the 650 it replaced)
which is much more um.... engaging. Like a jet powered BMX.
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Enduro Numpty
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PostPosted: 21:00 - 22 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try Covonia for the cough.

As you're already a riding god, I also suggest a Fireblade Wink
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 22:47 - 22 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once upon a time, bikes came in five capacities; The three 'racing' capacities were 250 'lightweight', 350 'junior' and 500 'senior' anything less than a 250 was a tiddler, anything over 500 a side-car hauler. For the most part, bikes were singles; they were cheaper to build, lighter on the track, and easier on fuel and maintenance. And then came the 650's....

In the post WWII consumer boom, US market demanded ever bigger-better-faster-more, and the Brit-Twin, was stretched from 350/500 to 650 to meet the demand.

As UK roads got tarmaced, we saw the rise of the ton-up-lads, who could buy a 650 on tick. So what they didn't handle like a Velocette 'sporting-single', the new roads were wider, flatter and longer than any race track, and the 650's were 'fast'.... although even in my youth, contrary to opinion, not soooooo long ago, folk still grumbled that anything bigger was only fit to haul a chariot, and you may as well buy a car!

But that attitude saw the UK motorcycle market shrink, as the Japanese offered ever bigger-better-faster-more techno-marvels.... and sold shed loads of 'tiddlers'... licence laws encouraged.

By 1980, the hi-po two-strokes that has seen 250 'learner-bikes' challenge the old guard 650 Brit-Twins for performance. To stay ahead in the game, the 350's had become 400's, the 500's 550's, and in 1986, Kawasaki badges its new water-cooled GPz600 a 600, to mark the difference between the air-cooled 550 'fours' and the 650 'twins'. They co-incidentally launched the GPz900R, creating the 600 and litre classes that have become familiar.

Meanwhile... racing regulations were written around the bikes sold to fold for the road; racing inspired new road bikes, and so the circle perpetuated hardening the 'new' 600 and liter classes.....

Until recently.....

What has 'happened' to the 'six-'undreds'?

Well, around 1997, Kawasaki launched an all new 600 'sports' designed to win 600 class production racing; the ZX6-R. AFAIK it was the first 600 class road bike to claim 100bhp, previously the preserve of full liter machines..... a-n-d the decline set in.

The techno-race of the 80's was over. The defacto-standard was a water-cooled 'four' with double-over-head-cams, in a box-section frame, covered in body-work. In the cash-cow US markey, 'factory-customs', over-the-counter harley-esque 'cruisers' outsold sports bike by an enormous margin; in continental Europe, 'Paris-Dakar' replica dirt bikes, similarly outsold everything else, and the 'race-replica' was becoming ever more irrelevant.

Y2K emmisions controls, along with the gold-seam of easily mined technology, and economic pressure on Japan to stop exploiting subsidized manufacturing investment to keep product-prices artificially low in export markets, saw a departure from bigger-better-faster-more marketing.

People weren't buying bigger-better-faster-more motorcycles any-more; they were buying more reasonably priced and more road-usable 'all-rounders' like Bandits and Diversions....

Emission regs hard-hitting the year-on-year power increases of strict-displacement classes, and demand for those machines to be a lot more 'rounded' and road feindly. 500 'commuter-twins' grew, gradually from 500cc to 650, and the 600 'super-sports' followed suit...

So endeth the era of the 'six 'undred'.

THAT is what happened to them. The artificial capacity 'class' just evolved into irrelevance.

In 1980, a 'good' Brit-Twin may have offered 60-65bhp. 25 years on, and that curiously is STILL about the sort of power you might get from something like an SV650 or ER6.. just in a very much more 'civilized' homogenized shrink-wrapped TV dinner package.... it's still more than enough power to break the still the same UK speed limits with inordinate ease... how much is 'enough'?

What do you Do?

You have the 'Ride-What-You-Like-Licence'.. you ride what you like!!!! Everything is 'restricted' to 70mph in this country by GATSO cameras... so what do you 'want'?

IF I wanted a razor edges, full on, no compromises 'sports' bike, these days, I would pick a last of the line, unrestricted 125, like a Mito or Aprillia!!! They only have 30bhp or so, its enough to just about achieve a genuine 100mph, but demand a lot of work from the rider to get it, so very rewarding when you do! (if actually getting there without shooting following traffic with piston-ring shrapnell, isn't enough!)

On the public roads, just about anything with more and bigger holes where fire happens, will just make achieving those sort of speeds a heck of a lot easier, and hence less rewarding, less 'fun', to my mind.

I ride a 750... a very old 750, its a pretty universal all-round motorcycle... and thanks to the 600 vs liter class-controversy actually cheaper to insure than either! There's little real correlation between capacity and performance these days, anyway; there are 600's that make more power than many liter-plus machines; performance depends more on their intended application or the style that looks best in the brochure; so its a very 'useful' machine, I can ride all day, and two-up without getting clouted around the crash-hat by a scrunched-up pillion bunny, OR have a 'bit' of more spirited fun on the lanes on a summer's evening.. if I don't get frustrated by sports-bike riders squidding between corners, believing that how much thier arms hurt from hanging on during warp-speed acceleration and rubber wall breaking, between bends is indication of how much of a riding ace they are!

So, you have a RTWYL-Licence... ride what you like..... takes-your-pick and pays your-money!
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 23:01 - 22 Feb 2018    Post subject: Re: Whats going on on the 600 seen or lack of it?? Reply with quote

Jaybone wrote:
750 or a 1000.


heres your answer
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Howling Terror
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PostPosted: 23:33 - 22 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Latest 1000s are too fast for the kids these days.
The latest bikes put out more power than the bike Rossi won his first MotoGP World Championship. Pass the popcorn
Plus kids are softer now. Why go out in the rain when you can stay in and shoot aliens.
Only us mature riders have the skills and discipline. Pass the popcorn

^^^There are truths in there.

Weird thing with the decline in sportsbikes is that this moment is the very best time..It's the pinnacle right now for the internal combustion engine before electric bikes start moving in with their whiny motors...powerful and clean they may be but like steam engines of the past these living dinosaurs are a marvel of mashing cogs and spinning bits of metal all run by explosions.

Nothing will beat the sound of 600s in the distance getting it's arse teared to shreds by yobbos.

Sportsbikes are dying because those that aspired to own one are dying.

We're dying of cool...Like Steve McQueen..Like Lawrence of Arabia, Marlon Brando, Hunter S Thompson, Clint Eastwood, Joey Dunlop, Barry Sheene.

We're dying and nobody will ever be as cool as we are/were.

Mr. Green
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Tdibs
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PostPosted: 23:40 - 22 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you have your full license just buy what you want Thumbs Up
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 09:17 - 23 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Howling Terror wrote:
Latest 1000s are too fast for the kids these days.
The latest bikes put out more power than the bike Rossi won his first MotoGP World Championship. Pass the popcorn
Plus kids are softer now. Why go out in the rain when you can stay in and shoot aliens.
Only us mature riders have the skills and discipline. Pass the popcorn

^^^There are truths in there.

Weird thing with the decline in sportsbikes is that this moment is the very best time..It's the pinnacle right now for the internal combustion engine before electric bikes start moving in with their whiny motors...powerful and clean they may be but like steam engines of the past these living dinosaurs are a marvel of mashing cogs and spinning bits of metal all run by explosions.

Nothing will beat the sound of 600s in the distance getting it's arse teared to shreds by yobbos.

Sportsbikes are dying because those that aspired to own one are dying.

We're dying of cool...Like Steve McQueen..Like Lawrence of Arabia, Marlon Brando, Hunter S Thompson, Clint Eastwood, Joey Dunlop, Barry Sheene.

We're dying and nobody will ever be as cool as we are/were.

Mr. Green


Incredibly eloquently put Mr. Terror. Karma
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 11:07 - 23 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 600 class in racing is dead, ergo there is no racing to further the 600's profile or tech.

Who really wants a new race replica 600 that's never entered a race, let alone won anything?

Nobody.
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 11:15 - 23 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Howling Terror wrote:
The latest bikes put out more power than the bike Rossi won his first MotoGP World Championship. Pass the popcorn

That would have been in 1997 on an Aprillia 125!!!!!!!

Admittedly, with a kart-tuned Rotax propelling it, it probably put out between 45 & 55bhp, depending how long they reckoned they had before they could afford to shoot spectators with piston-ring shrapnell!

Still, the suggestion hardly sets the bar very high.... with a claimed 44bhp, the Yamaha 535 Viagra 'cruiser' can probably justifiably claim to have as much power as Rossi's first World-Championship bike!
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Last edited by Teflon-Mike on 11:43 - 23 Feb 2018; edited 1 time in total
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 11:41 - 23 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:
Who really wants a new race replica 600 that's never entered a race, let alone won anything?


When Honda launched the CBR900RR in '93, that's pretty much what folk said about it; Who'll buy a bored out 750 that's not eligible for 750-class racing, and down on power to the litre-plus class bikes?

Similar argument was leveled at the 650-Brit-Twins, that were too big for the then current 500 'blue-ribbon' race class. Folk still bought them; then after buying them, they had to invent a class for those that wanted to race them!

It's a diverting double-ended Llama, really.

Of note, though the earliest 'Race-Replicas' were bikes like the Norton Manx or 'International', of the 1930's; models strategically claimed to be a 'replica' of the works race-bike of the last season, sold over-the-counter to any-one in the street with cash, who 'might' go race one.

The modern 'Race-Replica', probably traces it's ancestry back to Suzuki's '84 GSXR750, claimed then to be a road-going replica of their endurance racer, and the same era Yamaha RD500 & Suzuki's RG500 'GP-Replicas'.

Rather ironic to my mind that the GSXR was launched as the 'ultimate' Cafe-Racer.. at the end of an era when folk had bought over-the-counter road bikes; slapped rear-sets and clip-ons on them, and maybe a token fly-screen fairing to make them look like a 'racer'..... then when they got something done for them, by the factory, what did they do? Strip off the fairings, slap on high Renthal MX bars, to make it like a road-bike again, and called it a street-fighter!?!?!? There's nowt-queer-as-folk! As they say!!!

The cult of the Gixxer, though, probably shows how as the shear performance excess of over-the-counter production models grew, so the relevance of the 'racer-for-the-road' wayned.
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Kentol750
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PostPosted: 12:08 - 23 Feb 2018    Post subject: 600cc Reply with quote

It's power that you should be looking at. If a 600cc bike makes 120bhp, then it'll cost about the same to insure as a 750 or 1000cc bike making about the same power. Some of the exceptions being massive nazi adventure tractors and Italian exotica. Go and price up what you like and see if there's deals to be done. Don't let cc be a limiting factor.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 12:31 - 23 Feb 2018    Post subject: Re: Whats going on on the 600 seen or lack of it?? Reply with quote

Did you Fireblade yet?

Jaybone wrote:
I'm not inexperienced to riding and I'm fully aware there is only 1 D*ick who controls the throttle.

Then why limit yourself to a 600?

And if you're not intending to ride it hard and fast, you might as well be on an ER6F.
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Howling Terror
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PostPosted: 12:59 - 23 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teflon-Mike wrote:

That would have been in 1997 on an Aprillia 125!!!!!!!

Nope that was his win on a 500 in 2001.

Quote:
The numbers do not do justice to how fast these bikes were. At the end of almost three decades of GP racing Honda produced a bike weighing only 130kgs (286lbs) but with almost 200hp. Valentino Rossi won the last 500cc World Championship for Honda in 2001 but settled for a bike producing a mere 168hp, and a 200mph top speed, because 200hp was too much even for the ultimate Moto God.


In context that was a bike without all the rider aids of say a BMW S1000RR. A bike that is preferred by the TT riders as the Superbike version can be a tad too much for the circuit.

The OP asked about 600s. Get 1. The latest R6 puts out 120bhp revs to 14500 and actually has some torque. Titanium valves FFS!
Gixer 600/750 if you like punching kittens in the face.

Or go for a street triple which arguably doesn't look as cool (nothing is cooler than a crotch rocket) but will still put many many grins on face and will embarrass lots of litre bikes.
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GSTEEL32
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PostPosted: 13:52 - 23 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

buy something that you can drop/crash.

then crash it.

then buy something you actually want, but are less likely to crash.

Pay 1500 for ZX6_R or a GSXR or even a speed four.

The triumph is a bit of a Banter Factory, and I doubt you'll ever get bored of it tbh.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 15:54 - 23 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Howling Terror wrote:
Teflon-Mike wrote:

That would have been in 1997 on an Aprillia 125!!!!!!!

Nope that was his win on a 500 in 2001.

I'd happy throw my leg over a S1000RR or whatever uber superbike straight line heroes are riding these days. A 500cc 2-stroke I'd pass on.

Howling Terror wrote:
Or go for a street triple which arguably doesn't look as cool (nothing is cooler than a crotch rocket) but will still put many many grins on face and will embarrass lots of litre bikes.

The round headlight models do Folded arms Sports bikes look good until you scratch up your fairings. Then they look like a tramps hat.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 00:30 - 24 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:

I'd happy throw my leg over a S1000RR or whatever uber superbike straight line heroes are riding these days. A 500cc 2-stroke I'd pass on.



Which leads us neatly back to:

Howling Terror wrote:
Only us mature riders have the skills and discipline.


Mr. Green
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M.C
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PostPosted: 04:31 - 24 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
M.C wrote:

I'd happy throw my leg over a S1000RR or whatever uber superbike straight line heroes are riding these days. A 500cc 2-stroke I'd pass on.



Which leads us neatly back to:

Howling Terror wrote:
Only us mature riders have the skills and discipline.


Mr. Green

I'm willing to hedge my bets on that one Wink
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 13:18 - 24 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:



I'm willing to hedge my bets on that one Wink


Your record has got stuck.

Oh, wait. Only us mature people know what a record is Smile

Edit: Did I just call myself mature? Oh, that's a hoot! Laughing
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M.C
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PostPosted: 17:22 - 24 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

As long as the audience responds it'll keep on playing Wub

For my generation it would be your CD is skipping.

For the next something about buffering? Confused
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AshWebster
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PostPosted: 11:50 - 26 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

600 sports (and supersports) are indeed on the decline sales/production wise, but like people have said, this is the best time to own one - the last swansong before the rise of the (shit) electric machines take over.

I've got the last 600RR model produced. Maybe it'll be a cool collectors thing. Maybe it wont. All i know is its a fucking great ride.
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qarka
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PostPosted: 18:29 - 31 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another vote for Fireblade. Or ZX9R.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 19:45 - 31 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:
The 600 class in racing is dead, ergo there is no racing to further the 600's profile or tech.

Who really wants a new race replica 600 that's never entered a race, let alone won anything?

Nobody.


Well to be honest, the whole motorcycle racing scene got crap in the past few years. Especially the WSBK isn't as popular as it was in the 90's and early 2000's and that was the ultimate ''buy a bike'' ad there ever was. Watch lads racing on Tv/track on sunday, go buy the ''same'' motorcycle on monday. That was the golden era + the regulations were much less strict. Nowadays, I can't even tell the last time I saw a WSBK race on Tv, or track (Brno, CZE).
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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 00:10 - 04 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree with some of this. WSB and to an extent Moto GP has got less exciting, less diverse and less relevant to anything the public want.

I do still watch BSB because of close racing on bikes that have limited changes and development, and more stringent rules on tuning.

The other race class I believe will be exciting racing will be the super sport 300 class, as there is some diversity in machinery and development.
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