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chickenstrip
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 Posted: 13:34 - 15 Apr 2018  Post subject: |
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Might be a good idea not to rely on Russian gas supplies, since they're known to cut them off when they don't get their way with someone.
Many people seem to use the things that one group/country/alliance has done wrong, or been caught out with, to deny other situations or occurrences attributed to the opposing side. I struggle to understand the logic of that. It is perfectly possible that more than one side can be up to no good. As an example, many German soldiers captured during fighting in western Europe in WW2 warned of the Russian threat, and said we should be joining them to oppose it. Of course, Uncle Joe was our staunch ally and Hitler was a monster, so how could that be true?
It is as easy to deny that man ever set foot on the moon, and some here have actually espoused that theory. For me, you get to a point where the evidence, even anecdotal, builds to such a level such that it would seem churlish to deny something. In my view, and that of many thousands of others, including many who are well placed to know much more, Russia is playing a game against the west every bit as much as the west may be manoeuvring to secure it's own interests around the world. I worry about Russia (as much as I worry about anything these days  ) because of the backgrounds, history and connections of those currently running it, among much else.
My problem is that I'm a bit of a patriot, despite the failings of some of our politicians. If we went to war with Russia, and I was asked to do my bit by one side or the other, I'd throw in my lot with the UK. Some of you must be wondering at what point it will be time to buy that one-way air ticket to Moscow.
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| Posted: 14:29 - 15 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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| Kawasaki Jimbo wrote: |
You won't for a moment entertain the idea that Russia did it yet you'll happily imagine all sorts of scenarios where somebody else is to blame. |
If there was one part of the whole farce, which was remotely believable. I'd entertain it. None of the chain of events coming out of May or Johnson are even remotely believable.
We're supposed to believe Russia spent over 5 years plotting to assassinate 2 Russian citizens, using a nerve agent which nobody is supposed to survive from and would clearly implicate Russia, at a location handily 6 miles from the only place in the UK equipped to handle such an agent. They then made a complete cock up of it, 2 weeks before we made an excuse to attack the Syrian state army, defended and assisted by Russia, over an unproven chemical weapons attack, where we're supposed to believe Assad was stupid enough to target innocent civilians, giving the West the invasion excuse they've been looking for, for the last 5 years, at a time where he had practically won the war?
And you think I'm the one believing crazy theories? 
| Kawasaki Jimbo wrote: | Trying to tie the expulsion of some diplomats to the idea that the UK is engaged in a full blown war is nonsense. |
So was the claim of Weapons of Mass Destruction by Teflon Tony, when he was looking for an excuse to blow shit up in the Middle East.
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| Posted: 15:11 - 15 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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| mpd72 wrote: |
We're supposed to believe Russia spent over 5 years plotting to assassinate 2 Russian citizens |
You'd be surprised to learn of the time and resources the KGB put into such things during the Soviet era. Stalin was more obsessed about getting at Trotsky than he was about any threat from Germany, even after Germany invaded Russia. But of course, Russians who worked for the most powerful organisation in the state, which built its whole ideology on Stalinist practices, have not been influenced in their thinking one jot by that experience. Putin and many of his buddies are ex-KGB. Putin himself has said, "there's no such thing as an ex-KGB man." But as I said before, that is, of course, meaningless.
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 15:28 - 15 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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| mpd72 wrote: | | chickenstrip wrote: | Might be a good idea not to rely on Russian gas supplies, since they're known to cut them off when they don't get their way with someone.
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You mean like expecting countries to pre-pay for the gas they buy from them?
What bastards eh?  |
FTFY.
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| Posted: 15:35 - 15 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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| mpd72 wrote: |
I bet they didn't fuck up and allow them to make a full recovery after 5 years of planning though eh?  |
Twice, with some targets
| Quote: | Lucky it happened only 6 miles from the only place in the UK equipped to deal with nerve agents. What are the chances of that? Talk about lucky. |
Was Litvinenko targeted within 6 miles of Aldermaston? If the UK had wanted to do this, would the proximity of such an establishment really matter? Perfectly logical to accept that this is evidence though, right?
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| Posted: 15:37 - 15 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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| chickenstrip wrote: | | mpd72 wrote: |
You mean like expecting countries to pre-pay for the gas they buy from them?
What bastards eh? |
FTFY. |
Bollocks. Ukraine was in serious debt to Gazprom for not paying it's gas bill. You do have a strange recollection of the truth sometimes.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29521564
| Quote: | Why did Russia cut off Ukraine's gas?
Russia moved on 16 June to turn off the taps, after complaining that Ukraine had failed to pay off its debts, estimated at $5.3bn (£3.3bn; 4.2bn euros) by Russian state-run giant Gazprom. Gazprom had sought a repayment of $1.95bn. |
They only stated having to pay monthly in advance after running up over £3BN in debt.
| Quote: | What has been agreed now?
Ukraine will make two payments this year to clear most of its gas debt: a $1.45bn tranche "without delay", then a $1.65bn tranche.
This debt settlement will be based on the price of $268.5 per 1,000 cubic metres (cu m).
The EU agreed to act as guarantor for those payments.
Next year the rest of the debt is to be paid off - that quantity of debt and the gas price are to be determined by an independent court.
When the dispute erupted, Russia and Ukraine both took their cases to the international arbitration court at the Stockholm Chamber of Commerce. A final decision is only expected next summer.
Russia agreed to resume gas deliveries to Ukraine, for which Ukraine will pay monthly in advance.
These new deliveries will cost Ukraine $378 per 1,000 cu m to the end of 2014, and $365 in the first quarter of 2015.
Ukraine is free to order as much gas as it needs, the European Commission says. |
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| Posted: 16:06 - 15 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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Trusting the BBC now, are we?
The trouble is, when Russia cut off Ukraine's gas supply, it also massively reduced the flow to other European countries, which it must have known would happen. These countries weren't consulted beforehand. That's why it is better for Europe to have more than one source of supply generally. Gas from Gazprom is dependent on Russian political, as well as commercial factors. That is a risk it would be wise to mitigate against in my view, especially in the current political climate, but generally anyway.
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 18:50 - 15 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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| Itchy wrote: | | chickenstrip wrote: | Trusting the BBC now, are we?
The trouble is, when Russia cut off Ukraine's gas supply, it also massively reduced the flow to other European countries, which it must have known would happen. These countries weren't consulted beforehand. That's why it is better for Europe to have more than one source of supply generally. Gas from Gazprom is dependent on Russian political, as well as commercial factors. That is a risk it would be wise to mitigate against in my view, especially in the current political climate, but generally anyway. |
The thing is though the Western world has depleted gas and oil reserves and needs to import gas and oil.
Why? Well in the 1970s and 1980s the Western world pumped it as fast as possible to flood the markets and therefore undermine the USSR economy which was highly dependent on oil and gas exports.
Hell we even saw a James Bond film about it where he travels through a USSR gas pipe. |
I don't think I'm quite with you there, sorry. Are you saying that Europe should not diversify its gas supply sources?
And please leave the James Bond comments out of this
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| Posted: 20:33 - 15 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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| Itchy wrote: |
So the diversification is now lets bomb Syria depose the president and build a gas pipe line over it. There will be absolutely NO negative consequences right? |
I did wonder why we were involved with that country. Never realised it was all about getting a gas pipeline established to Europe. I must say, it's very nice of the USA to help us with this goal! Cheers for enlightening me
Although I'm sure I've read about other potential options under consideration, but I must be mistaken.
| Quote: | putting solar panels on roof tops then sure. |
Well, China is hardly an example of introducing solar power, or generally in a position to preach about clean energy, is it? (I take it you're speaking with your "I'm Chinese and we're great" head on there?). Although, thank you for help with our nuclear energy supply  But you really ought to be cracking on with that for yourselves too - 70% reliability on coal is going to take you some time to escape from, and I would say that with the way you are poisoning your citizens with those famous smogs, it makes it rather more urgent than current efforts are likely to achieve
Not to mention, I think it is already pretty accepted that solar energy is not anywhere near sufficient to replace fossil fuels, and is not foreseen to be for.....well, ever.
So for now, yes, I think diversifying supplies of oil and gas should be at least near the top of the energy agenda for Europe. Not much choice really, considering the expense of massively expanding nuclear power generation capability. Although anyone who hasn't noticed that at least some progress has been made with clean alternatives, must be (selectively) blind. It's not like no one is thinking about it.
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| Posted: 20:42 - 15 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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| Itchy wrote: | !
Ah lets put in place a dictator (quite a few of them) who brutalises his people! Nothing can ever go wrong with this!!! |
https://thediplomat.com/2011/09/chinas-dictator-complex/
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| Posted: 20:48 - 15 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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| Pjay wrote: | | chickenstrip wrote: | Was Litvinenko targeted within 6 miles of Aldermaston? If the UK had wanted to do this, would the proximity of such an establishment really matter? Perfectly logical to accept that this is evidence though, right? |
Was it proven that Litvinenko was poisoned by Russians?
Like I have stated before, $50m to kill someone is lolsome.
Even entertaining the idea is. To me at least. |
Proved beyond a reasonable doubt I'd say. The stuff was found all over the place - wherever Lugovoi went, Polonium 210 went too He sprinkled it around with carefree abandon - poured it down hotel sinks, wiped it up with towels...
And it apparently took him an embarrassing return to Moscow to get more after he botched the first attempt. But you know all this having looked into it to support your view, yes?
So clearly someone didn't find the expense a problem. Who else might it have been? Bearing in mind Lugovoi is so closely connected with the trail. Inextricably connected, in fact.
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| Posted: 22:21 - 15 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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| chickenstrip wrote: | Trusting the BBC now, are we?
The trouble is, when Russia cut off Ukraine's gas supply, it also massively reduced the flow to other European countries, which it must have known would happen. These countries weren't consulted beforehand. That's why it is better for Europe to have more than one source of supply generally. Gas from Gazprom is dependent on Russian political, as well as commercial factors. That is a risk it would be wise to mitigate against in my view, especially in the current political climate, but generally anyway. |
Nice dodge. I accept your apology about Ukrainian gas debt.
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| Posted: 22:22 - 15 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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| chickenstrip wrote: | Proved beyond a reasonable doubt I'd say. The stuff was found all over the place - wherever Lugovoi went, Polonium 210 went too He sprinkled it around with carefree abandon - poured it down hotel sinks, wiped it up with towels...
And it apparently took him an embarrassing return to Moscow to get more after he botched the first attempt. But you know all this having looked into it to support your view, yes?
So clearly someone didn't find the expense a problem. Who else might it have been? Bearing in mind Lugovoi is so closely connected with the trail. Inextricably connected, in fact. |
You just seem to be regurgitating western splurge.
Again.
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| Posted: 22:26 - 15 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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The refusal to send Russia a sample, made this pretty much self-evident to me.
Still, we should always think the worst of those pesky Russians, they obviously sourced it from outside Russia.
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| Posted: 23:26 - 15 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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| Wikipedia wrote: | Zero Hedge's content has been classified as "alt-right",[3] anti-establishment, conspiratorial, and economically pessimistic,[4][5] and has been criticized for presenting extreme and sometimes pro-Russian views |
Why am I not surprised that you would use such a source?
Honestly, I really think there is no point in any of us quoting sources to uphold our arguments on this topic.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/no-swiss-lab-hasnt-cast-12367077
See what I mean?
| Pjay wrote: | The refusal to send Russia a sample, made this pretty much self-evident to me. |
Sorry, explain to me what this would have achieved again? I must have forgotten your previous explanation when I posed this question before.
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| Posted: 23:33 - 15 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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| Pjay wrote: | | chickenstrip wrote: | Proved beyond a reasonable doubt I'd say. The stuff was found all over the place - wherever Lugovoi went, Polonium 210 went too He sprinkled it around with carefree abandon - poured it down hotel sinks, wiped it up with towels...
And it apparently took him an embarrassing return to Moscow to get more after he botched the first attempt. But you know all this having looked into it to support your view, yes?
So clearly someone didn't find the expense a problem. Who else might it have been? Bearing in mind Lugovoi is so closely connected with the trail. Inextricably connected, in fact. |
You just seem to be regurgitating western splurge.
Again. |
What are your sources for saying Litvinenko wasn't killed by the Russians?
I'm sorry, but just repeating over and over that I appear to be "regurgitating western splurge" isn't going to change my opinions. You'll need to show me something a bit more convincing if you want me to change my mind.
The investigation into Litvinenko's death was carried out by Scotland Yard. Give me your reasons why I should trust you before them if you like.
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| Posted: 23:41 - 15 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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Just responding in kind.
What was your answer to my question about Putin's statements again? My memory is getting terrible!
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