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Itchy
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PostPosted: 16:32 - 22 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
me before wrote:


The only thing I can think of is Iraq Tony Blair subsequent governments went for a Parliamentary vote before any action was taken. The current PM broke this precedent with the recent actions.

It's why when people say rule of law in the UK it's sometimes doubtful.


chickenstrip wrote:


Precedent, not law. Which is why some are calling for it to be made law, which to my mind sounds like a good idea on first examination, except I wonder if there might be circumstances where that would prove unwise? I'm not sure that this latest action would be an example of such circumstances - probably not.


Uh I'm on about two completely different things.

Precedent as after Tony Blair Cameron set a precedent by asking Parliament before taking military action. It would maybe be a good idea to make this law or have a war powers act like the US... not that the War powers act has ever really prevented the US entering laws.


Rule of law in the UK is doubted because the major facet of rule of law being everybody is equal before the law and all are subject to it doesn't really exist in the UK. This is because there are many many exemptions. The Queen isn't subject to UK law but she doesn't test it so it's a non issue for her. The other exempted groups matter a lot more, MPs, police, wealthy people etc.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 16:35 - 22 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:


What does Putin mean by "there's no such thing as an ex-KGB man", and "traitors will kick the bucket"? Razz



They all walk funny after the KGB :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxmDeU_4UlQ

No seriously they do.

chickenstrip wrote:
"traitors will kick the bucket"? Razz


Well wait long enough everybody dies Very Happy
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 17:34 - 22 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Itchy wrote:
me before wrote:


The only thing I can think of is Iraq Tony Blair subsequent governments went for a Parliamentary vote before any action was taken. The current PM broke this precedent with the recent actions.

It's why when people say rule of law in the UK it's sometimes doubtful.


chickenstrip wrote:


Precedent, not law. Which is why some are calling for it to be made law, which to my mind sounds like a good idea on first examination, except I wonder if there might be circumstances where that would prove unwise? I'm not sure that this latest action would be an example of such circumstances - probably not.


Uh I'm on about two completely different things.

Precedent as after Tony Blair Cameron set a precedent by asking Parliament before taking military action. It would maybe be a good idea to make this law or have a war powers act like the US... not that the War powers act has ever really prevented the US entering laws.


Uh I think we are not disagreeing here...
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 17:42 - 22 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Itchy wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:


What does Putin mean by "there's no such thing as an ex-KGB man", and "traitors will kick the bucket"? Razz



They all walk funny after the KGB :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxmDeU_4UlQ

No seriously they do.


Laughing
Funnily enough, this isn't actually the first time I've seen this mentioned. I think he's a fan of John Wayne.

Itchy wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:
"traitors will kick the bucket"? Razz


Well wait long enough everybody dies Very Happy


Had an invitation for an interview regarding a post within the Kremlin PR office yet? Laughing

My question still stands though Razz
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M.C
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PostPosted: 23:56 - 22 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
Royal Marine guilty of Afghanistan murder

Quote:
It showed Marine A shooting the Afghan prisoner with a 9mm pistol, and saying: "There, shuffle off this mortal coil... It's nothing you wouldn't do to us."

He adds: "Obviously this doesn't go anywhere fellas. I just broke the Geneva Convention,"


I remember seeing loads of Facebook posts about this. Marine A was a hero, out risking his life in the theatre of war for our great nation. Lots of Help For Heroes stuff chucked around. People wanted him absolved because he was on our side.

Now how would all these things have been presented and received if they were done by an enemy?

Suddenly the chemical weapons stuff sounds a bit tit-for-tat to me, if it even happened the way the media says it did!

Which was later quashed and reduced to manslaughter Rolling Eyes What do you think the Taliban would have done upon finding a wounded solider?
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duhawkz
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PostPosted: 00:25 - 23 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:

Now how would all these things have been presented and received if they were done by an enemy?


There was plenty of torture and ill treatment of POWs during the gulf war

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=gulf+war+pow+treatment&oq=gulf+war+pows+&aqs=chrome.2.69i57j0l5.9834j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

also I've yet to see UK/US forces put some poor fucker in a cage and set them alight
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 02:48 - 23 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:

No doubt to mpd's disgust, I'll ask you the same question that remains unanswered by all those defending Russia here: what does Putin mean by "there is no such thing as an ex-KGB man", and "traitors will kick the bucket"?


Agreed, it's a dodgy statement. But one could argue it has about as much substance as Theresa May and her endless shallow soundbites for building the political image of herself and her party.

'Strong and Stable' Putin, KGB until he dies, because he said so, go Russia! Russians like the hard man talk, I think?

Though I should admit, I would say Putin has more integrity than Theresa May and her folk, so his words have a little more weight.

Funny way to fail at killing a traitor though.

Last edited by Lord Percy on 03:03 - 23 Apr 2018; edited 1 time in total
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 03:01 - 23 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thoughts on this?

Gas attack was staged by anti-Assad rebels.

For those who can't be arsed to clicked through to a Facebook video:

Bloke says while he was out at work his son was suddenly taken to a hospital and generally had no idea what was going on. They started making him look all scruffy and chucked a load of water on his face, giving it a good scrub. Kid had no idea what was going on so was obviously very distressed, crying etc.

The father was then called while he was at work and was told his whole family was in a bad state at hospital, so he arrived and added to the chaos of blokes doing that wailing thing that Arabs seems to do in times of distress.

A short while later they gave him his son back, a little dishevelled but not at all hurt, and he went home.

A doctor in the hospital testified too, saying the rebels just used one corner to scrub kids and other people with water.

Question
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 07:27 - 23 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
^^^ Personally I think it's more likely than Russia and Assad doing the attack.

I just cannot see a reason for Putin to do it (or allow Assad to). They are winning. They will win so why unless it's a 'fuck you, we don't give a shit about what you think warning'.

For Russia to allow it there would have to be a real reason for them to. They are totally pragmatic about anything they do.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 11:52 - 23 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
Thoughts on this?

Gas attack was staged by anti-Assad rebels.

For those who can't be arsed to clicked through to a Facebook video:

Bloke says while he was out at work his son was suddenly taken to a hospital and generally had no idea what was going on. They started making him look all scruffy and chucked a load of water on his face, giving it a good scrub. Kid had no idea what was going on so was obviously very distressed, crying etc.

The father was then called while he was at work and was told his whole family was in a bad state at hospital, so he arrived and added to the chaos of blokes doing that wailing thing that Arabs seems to do in times of distress.

A short while later they gave him his son back, a little dishevelled but not at all hurt, and he went home.

A doctor in the hospital testified too, saying the rebels just used one corner to scrub kids and other people with water.

Question


That's what it looks like to me, going by what has actually been shown on the news.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 12:06 - 23 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:

No doubt to mpd's disgust, I'll ask you the same question that remains unanswered by all those defending Russia here: what does Putin mean by "there is no such thing as an ex-KGB man", and "traitors will kick the bucket"?


Agreed, it's a dodgy statement. But one could argue it has about as much substance as Theresa May and her endless shallow soundbites for building the political image of herself and her party.


...if it weren't for Litvinenko, I strongly suspect with Skripal, and other cases of poisoning by various agents. If it weren't for the Russian apartment bombings, the way Beslan and the theatre hostage case were handled. If it wasn't for the word of so many Russians, who felt they had to flee the country because they raised their voices, and those beaten up or jailed or dead because they didn't leave, and those who died in 'unexplained' circumstances anyway. If it wasn't for many things which taken together are damning evidence of the nature of Putin's regime. In my view, of course Wink

Quote:
Though I should admit, I would say Putin has more integrity than Theresa May and her folk, so his words have a little more weight.


Based on what? There are many, both Russian and otherwise, who would laugh you out of the room for putting the words "integrity" and "Putin" in the same sentence.
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Last edited by chickenstrip on 12:19 - 23 Apr 2018; edited 1 time in total
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 12:16 - 23 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Polarbear wrote:


For Russia to allow it there would have to be a real reason for them to. They are totally pragmatic about anything they do.


This is a curious statement to make, imo. Again, based on what? I think it is a way too general statement.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 12:30 - 23 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
@Lord Percy.
Try reading this:

https://images.gr-assets.com/books/1382111304l/18663990.jpg

Yes, I know what you say about the books we can get being those the government wants us to be able to read (I disagree, but that's just me). But give it a shot anyway. Some of it I have my doubts about, but I'd call it insightful, nevertheless. If nothing else, it's an entertaining read.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 12:53 - 23 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:


Based on what? There are many, both Russian and otherwise, who would laugh you out of the room for putting the words "integrity" and "Putin" in the same sentence.


You're the one who said he means it when he says traitors will die!
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 12:54 - 23 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:


Based on what? There are many, both Russian and otherwise, who would laugh you out of the room for putting the words "integrity" and "Putin" in the same sentence.


You're the one who said he means it when he says traitors will die!


In the words of mpd72, "nice dodge"!
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 12:55 - 23 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:

No doubt to mpd's disgust, I'll ask you the same question that remains unanswered by all those defending Russia here: what does Putin mean by "there is no such thing as an ex-KGB man", and "traitors will kick the bucket"?


Agreed, it's a dodgy statement. But one could argue it has about as much substance as Theresa May and her endless shallow soundbites for building the political image of herself and her party.

'Strong and Stable' Putin, KGB until he dies, because he said so, go Russia! Russians like the hard man talk, I think?

Though I should admit, I would say Putin has more integrity than Theresa May and her folk, so his words have a little more weight.

Funny way to fail at killing a traitor though.


If you admire dictatorial Putin for being assertive, tough, decisive perhaps, then haven't you got to hope that the UK will show similar character when there is an attack on its own soil and everything points to Russia? Otherwise you've got a wishy-washy government going, "Well... we can't be unequivocal so we'll just have to do nothing."
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 12:59 - 23 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:
@Lord Percy.
Try reading this:

https://images.gr-assets.com/books/1382111304l/18663990.jpg

Yes, I know what you say about the books we can get being those the government wants us to be able to read (I disagree, but that's just me)


No you missed the point completely. It isn't that anyone is telling us to read anything at all. It's that books making Putin out to be the bad guy are the ones most likely to sell, for whatever reason, and so they are the ones that are distributed in the highest numbers.

About the book itself, the black cover with sinister half-shadowed face are enough to tell me what kind of angle it's most likely to take Wink

I'll give it a peak if I can anyway Thumbs Up
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 13:07 - 23 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:

If you admire dictatorial Putin for being assertive, tough, decisive perhaps, then haven't you got to hope that the UK will show similar character when there is an attack on its own soil and they dubiously claim everything points to Russia? Otherwise you've got a wishy-washy government going, "Well... we can't be unequivocal so we'll just have to do nothing."


FTFY Wink

About Putin as a person, to be honest he just comes across as a more human character overall. I think one of the greatest failings of modern British culture is the way we seem to have slowly attacked our own ability to speak plainly. Most British politicians come across as boring office workers who've morphed their personality into an awful shade of grey because they don't want to stand out. It's impossible to trust someone like Theresa May who so clearly doesn't really give a shit about what she's saying anyway. It's just a job for her.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 13:10 - 23 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:
@Lord Percy.
Try reading this:

https://images.gr-assets.com/books/1382111304l/18663990.jpg

Yes, I know what you say about the books we can get being those the government wants us to be able to read (I disagree, but that's just me)


No you missed the point completely. It isn't that anyone is telling us to read anything at all. It's that books making Putin out to be the bad guy are the ones most likely to sell, for whatever reason, and so they are the ones that are distributed in the highest numbers.


Point me towards the books that paint Putin in a better light then. As I said, I like to read as widely as possible, but I struggle to find anything that does this. A cynic might be suspicious about why this is, but I'm not one of those (I would prefer something written and published in Russia, because then I know it's not western propaganda).
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 13:14 - 23 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:

If you admire dictatorial Putin for being assertive, tough, decisive perhaps, then haven't you got to hope that the UK will show similar character when there is an attack on its own soil and they dubiously claim everything points to Russia? Otherwise you've got a wishy-washy government going, "Well... we can't be unequivocal so we'll just have to do nothing."


FTFY Wink

About Putin as a person, to be honest he just comes across as a more human character overall.


Yes, you've guessed what I'm going to say Laughing :

Based on what? Perhaps you base it on the way he handled the Kursk submarine disaster, and the things he said at that time?
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 13:17 - 23 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:


Most British politicians come across as boring office workers who've morphed their personality into an awful shade of grey because they don't want to stand out. It's impossible to trust someone like Theresa May who so clearly doesn't really give a shit about what she's saying anyway. It's just a job for her.


And look at the uproar generated when they're not like this; Boris Johnson, anyone?
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 13:29 - 23 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:

If you admire dictatorial Putin for being assertive, tough, decisive perhaps, then haven't you got to hope that the UK will show similar character when there is an attack on its own soil and they dubiously claim everything points to Russia? Otherwise you've got a wishy-washy government going, "Well... we can't be unequivocal so we'll just have to do nothing."


FTFY Wink

About Putin as a person, to be honest he just comes across as a more human character overall. I think one of the greatest failings of modern British culture is the way we seem to have slowly attacked our own ability to speak plainly. Most British politicians come across as boring office workers who've morphed their personality into an awful shade of grey because they don't want to stand out. It's impossible to trust someone like Theresa May who so clearly doesn't really give a shit about what she's saying anyway. It's just a job for her.


I think you've done it again. You're asking for one thing from UK government and then criticising it when it happens.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 17:39 - 23 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:


I think you've done it again. You're asking for one thing from UK government and then criticising it when it happens.


What do you think I'm asking for and what do you think I'm criticising?

Done what again? Seems you're trying to use loaded terms to make me look like an imbecile. Is it really so hard to grasp the point that half the British political system come across as spineless bores?

And are you suggesting Theresa May has been the opposite of a spineless bore with her sudden 'tough' stance against the apparent enemy and her sudden 'tough' decision to start bombing Syria? Laughing . Looks more like a severe case of 'yes sir, yes sir, three bags full sir' to me.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 17:49 - 23 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:

Lord Percy wrote:

About Putin as a person, to be honest he just comes across as a more human character overall.



Based on what? Perhaps you base it on the way he handled the Kursk submarine disaster, and the things he said at that time?


No, more simple than that. Just watching him talk in TV appearances is enough to tell me has more about him than most of our folk.

This isn't saying he's a good or bad person. Just that he has a brain in his head and thinks like a sensible adult, while most of ours don't.

You mentioned Boris Johnson before. He's a shining example of everything, and I mean everything, that is wrong with British politics right now. He's a court jester, the public see him as a bit of light entertainment because of his novel character, but actually he's one of our top politicians. He would be an abject failure in any sensible political system. Yet somehow he manages to stay around right at the top. How? Bullingdon club effect I suppose - he's in his rightful place for somebody of his kind. The British class system at its most obvious. It's madness. But that's another rant entirely...

A counter to the above could be Diane Abbott, I suppose. But that's another rant too Very Happy
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M.C
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PostPosted: 18:05 - 23 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
And are you suggesting Theresa May has been the opposite of a spineless bore with her sudden 'tough' stance against the apparent enemy and her sudden 'tough' decision to start bombing Syria? Laughing . Looks more like a severe case of 'yes sir, yes sir, three bags full sir' to me.

What would you call not bothering to consult Parliament? She wasn't the PM during the previous 2 votes on military action in Syria.
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