DAS lesson advice

[Jamieking86]

Hi guys, I've had 2 DAS lessons in the last week. First off, how nice is a 600 coming off a 125? lol.

Anyway, had my 2nd lesson on tuesday, which went perfectly well until i dropped it. He took me down to the test centre to show me around which is down a pretty steep hill, did a u-turn at the bottom which went really well actually, then i thought we was going to ride straight back out, at the last second he said sorry Jamie just park up on the left here and we'll have a chat, so quickly turned into the side which was on the slight hill and lots of gravel, as i straightened the bike up i put my foot down and slipped on the gravel, over i went with the 180kg bike. Kind of dented my confidence a little but after that my riding was perfect. He told me my riding is perfect, positiong etc is excellent, only thing i'm crap at is as i'm only small i hate stopping as i'm always worried i'm going to drop it. He told me i use too much front brake which is true, i hardly ever use the rear brake. Would using the rear brake only when reducing speed to 10mph approx, make a more controlled stop than just using the front brake? I understand all the weight goes to the front when you use the front brake which tends to let the bike want lean over when stopping so i suppose it makes sense. Just thought i'd ask for advice from the other experts Cheers

[Rogerborg]

You dropped a bike, it happens. Yes, use the rear brake at slow speed, especially on bad surfaces. Here endeth the lesson.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

[Jamieking86]

I also dropped it on my first lesson doing a U-turn, but it was my first ever u-turn so i'll give myself a break on that one.

Does hurt the confidence though but i suppose it comes with practice like anything. I'm having nightmares about this rear brake thing lol.

[Ste]

[Jamieking86]

I am happy dragging the rear brake at slow speed maneouvres, ie: Slalom, figure of 8 etc, but my question is coming to a stop at traffic lights or a junction etc, is it more suitable to release the front brake and use the rear brake only once you've got to around 10mph? Is the bike more steady that way and less chance of falling over? lol. I don't have another lesson for a couple weeks now so i can't really practice until then.

[Pjay]

[Holdawayt]

It's not a big deal but I know how much it can knock your confidence.
I've been riding since 2015 and only had my first off last month. Slipped on some ice but it wasn't a biggy.
On the rest of my journey and on the ride home that day I was tense and nervous and it really showed in my riding.

It happens to all of us at some point. Take in what the instructor tells you, learn to balance the brakes and you're on to a winner.

[Powderhead]

[Rogerborg]

You don't strictly have to use the rear brake. I self-learned and passed on my chuff via the 125 route and never got into the habit of using the rear at all, even on bigger bikes.

But when I finally started making a conscious effort to do so - after watching this video, actually - I found that it did actually help.

However, don't sweat it. All you need to do is to get through a couple of fairly easy tests, then you can find a bike that suits your stature. Feel free to ignore Sunday riders who assure you that you don't need to be able to flat foot - I can assure you that commuting on today's rekt roads, stopped on a bad camber in a high sidewind, you'd better be able to.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

[Powderhead]

[AshWebster]

stopping from fast = use front brake 80/20 back brake

stopping from slow can just use back brake really...

or is this bad advice?
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Honda cg125 J reg peice of shit ---> CB650F ---> 2016 CBR600RR
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[Powderhead]

[NJD]

I wouldn't think about dropping it anymore than you already have. You're not the first and won't be the last, it happens. I'd be glad, if anything, that you dropped it the way you did rather than because you can't ride the thing with confidence. Gravel's a pain in the arse.. I loose count of how many times I avoid a huge section of it near roundabouts etc.

..

Good news on the whole "stopping phobia" episode is that loads of bikes have lowering kits and, well, when you pass you can buy a bike that you feel comfortable on and or can flatfoot.

Alternatively if you don't want to stop you can learn to use the clutch, throttle and rear brake to plan ahead and balance without stopping.

I wouldn't use the front at slow speeds because the front wheel follows the dips in the road. In truth how much brake to use, what ones and when comes with more miles on the road. I used to use the rear and engine breaking only but then change between styles as and when, conditions and mood depending.
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[Rogerborg]

[Teflon-Mike]

Oh gawd, back-brake and slow-speed-maneuvers.. 'Drag'n'effin'Slip' warning!!!!!!!

Oh-Kay.... the 'legacy' of back-brake for slow speed maneuvering, there IS good reason behind it.... B-U-T not in drag'n'slip which is the MC equivalent of patting your head and rubbing your tummy!

It's actually quite a simple principle why back-brake for slow-speed came to be... and it's a matter of geometry.

The front wheel, is on a fork, raked out from the vertical and hinged to the frame; when you turn the bars, the wheel doesn'tpivot directly over the contact patch of the tyre, the contact patch of the tyre moves in an arc.. which means it can go either side of the axis of the bike.... wore the fork is telescopic, and the wheel can go up and down... but not just up and down, as the fork's raked, it goes forwards and back, too... actual wheel base changes with suspension movement... and it could all get very complicated....

B-U-T, the thing is that off-set between the contact patch and the axis of motion... as long as you are going in a dead straight line, you dont get any off-set, so it shouldn't make any odds... but if doing 'manouvers' you are probably wanting to 'steer' as well as anything else, and you DO get that offset.

TRAIL... draw a line through the head-stock 'hinge' where that line cuts the floor aught to be ahead of the contact patch of the tyre. The distance between the intersection of the hinge axis and the contact patch is actually the 'trail' dimension sometimes quoted in the brochure specs; but it's like the 'castor' on a shopping trolly wheel or trailer behind a car... as long as the contact patch is behind the hinge, like the car trailer.... the trailer'follows' the car.... now watch some-one trying to reverse a caravan...... yeah.. it tends to go ANYWHERE!!!

Now keep that analogy in mind...... MOST of the time, when riding a bike, that contact patch stays well behind the hinge, and everything 'sort' of stays where it should, like a trailer being dragged..... but bikes is built to tilt, and that can complicate things..... but still... I'll ignore that for now!

Oh-Kay.. hinge, contact patch behind hinge, bike..... now turn bars to the left, and the contact patch moves to the right of center....

Now brake.....

Subtle aside... It is almost certain that when you read that, you imagined braking with the front.... bike moving forwards, off-set, contact patch to the right, weight traveling along center line, braking reacting that offset from axis of travel a-n-d....

Yes! This is where it all gets complicated... but I didn't 'say' brake with the front, did I? But lets run with it....

You brake with the front, you have a momentum force pushing along the axis of travel.... you have a reaction force trying to oppose that, pushing back through the contact patch, and an offset between the two lines....

This gives you a 'couple' or 'torque' two offset forces trying to twist something.... and in this case, conveniently that's the 'hinge' the forks and frame, so something is actually 'free' to twist, and the only thing stopping it is you hanging onto the handlebars!!

Now... your steering left, contact patch shifts to the right, resultant torque tries to 'straighten' the bars back up to center; So the more you try and turn, so the more off-set you create, hence more torque, and 'self centering' effect, so the more you have to try and resist that torque and positively turn the bars to the left...

NOW built to tilt.... ignore the KCody counter-steer distraction, BUT, you get into a world of what is called progression effects, and turning the bars to the left WILL make the bike 'try' and lean to the right, and the lines of action get all very muddled in 3-Dimensions, as the bike lens over and the center of gravity everything 'should' soft of act through, moves around over the top of the two contact patches.....

B-U-T, up-shot is that as you brake on the front, the natural self-centering of the steering geometry tries to counteract the steering input.....

At speed, lean tends to be greater, and steering smaller, so the offset is kept small, and you don't have to 'fight' the bars very much.

When you is going slow.... you PROBABLY want a lot more steering, as in a much tighter 'arc'. You probably also have the tendancy to hold the bike as upright as you can.... feels like it will just fall over if you lean it more... and so. top get the right arc you hope for, you likely use a LOT of bar-turn. That means a much bigger 'offset' between contact patch and axis of travel, and so more reaction, and hence more fighting the steering to deal with it.....

A-N-D more tenancy; As you steer, you will 'naturally' try and lean the other way to get the leverage to turn the bars.... you aren't leaning the bike very much, but you are probably MAKING perverse weight shifts effectively leaning the opposite way to steer....

That will tend to try and make the bike lean that way; and so 'not' steer as much as you turn the bars... so you are in a tussle, more tou steer, more you lean, less you steer, more you try steer, more you lean the wrong way, etc

A-N-D all the time, BRAKING... the braking force through the offset fighting you making you try and turn even more, and lean even more and you get in a R-I-G-H-T mess!!!!!

Brake with the BACK brake.... now there's no offset between the opposing forces.... braking is coming from the back, its always behind like the caravan, being dragged..... it does NOT set up a wrestling match with the handlebars!!!!

THIS is where the suggestion comes from...... and actually makes a lot of sense and more, WORKS!!!!!!

Best of all, it actually works at pretty much all speeds, and on the road, NOT using the back-brake is pretty much just making life hard for yourself.....

I can hear the sport-bike-jockeys sucking in more air than a supercharged hemi at that, and someone shouting that a back wheel in the air aint transmitting any braking force...... which is true...... why the heck isn't it on the deck where it should be in the first place though?!?!? And we get into the anomalies and contradictions, of which there are many...

Two things; FIRST that so-oft-ignored back brake is a DAMN useful thing to have, AND its a hell of a good habit to get into using it, as routine. Slow-Speed or no....

Up to the point that the back-wheel is hanging in the air, that on public road you shouldn't EVER really encounter anyway, it IS doing 'something' and something useful; and that IS putting a proportion of useful braking force through the back tyre, where its dragging the speed down like a parachute, rather than pushing it down like a way-ward shopping trolly wheel, through the trail offset, and geometry effects and natural tendancy to try and lean the wrong way to help steer....

For slow-speed manouvers... first that back brake is a good freind.... NOT giving you extra work through the offset and steering geometry.... Beyond that...... recognizing that bikes steer by LEANING as much as they do by turning the handlebars goes a long way..... and, it is an increased tendancy on a bigger heavier bike, especially if coming up from a light-weight, and most so at low speeds to NOT lean the boogah, and try do it ALL through the bars, which like only using front brake, is just making life hard for yourself and setting up of inflating the number of competing forces to get in a tangle to bring you down.

LET IT LEAN, the thing weights you suggested 180Kg... that's near enough 400lb, the weight of a pro-wrestler like Hulk-Hogan or The Rock, plus a bit.. why you in such a hurry to get into a wresting match with it?!?! Use less bar-steer, more lean-steer.. let it lean, DON'T get into the wresting match with it, do judo... let its weight work for you! And then DON'T give it the advantage, USE THAT BACK BRAKE!

You shouldn't, for slow speed maneuvers, or even pretty brisk ones! Be going so fast that on a 180+Kg motorcycle there's a lot of risk of lifting the back-wheel on braking..... so let the weight keep it on the deck, get the braking effect from it, and save making that shopping trolly effect at the front.

Remember, bikes lean. If you dont lean them, you may as well buy a car or ride the bus; its what they do! DO IT! Don't fight it, USE it; let the thing lean, and help you turn, and get in the habbit of using that back brake, especially at slow speeds to save some, if not all the tangle of competing forces from that 'trail-offset' at the front.
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[grr666]

I thought it was to keep the chain tight. eliminating some jerkiness from throttle inputs at low speed.
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Ste wrote: Avatars are fine, it's signatures that need turning off.

[Kentol750]

Well, you've been Teffed. Use the engine braking of the bike. Look ahead and plan your slow down. If you're braking hard, you've missed something. We all do it. Smooth riding comes from reacting to things before they become a problem. Depending on the engine, depends on how much closing the throttle gives you instant slow down/engine braking. Then you should think about using the brakes. Slow speed riding is something practice makes better. 30 odd years of riding will make you happy doing a 'u' turn with the clutch in and coasting round. 2 weeks on a bike you've spent hours on won't. Read the advice on here and work out how you can adapt your skills to it. There's a reason that Rossi and Lorenzo aren't building our transport to Mars.[/i]
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Some bikes.

[M.C]

[Rogerborg]