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FITE: BikeSafe v IAM v RoSPA v DIAmond v ERS v BMF v ?

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Powderhead
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PostPosted: 14:57 - 22 Mar 2018    Post subject: FITE: BikeSafe v IAM v RoSPA v DIAmond v ERS v BMF v ? Reply with quote

Background: I've been riding for about 3 years. Started on a 125, rode it for 2 years, binned it, and then bought an MT-07 a year ago. My riding is mainly commuting from Kingston upon Thames to central London, and the occasional weekend blast.

With a view to doing some more advanced training in the future, I've just booked a BikeSafe Workshop in June, starting at the Ace Cafe. I'm also going to buy a copy of Roadcraft, so I'll be learning and practising what I can from it myself anyway. If all else fails, it'll help me sleep Laughing

I know there's a bunch of different courses and assessments you can do, and from what I've read, it seems like IAM and RoSPA are the most popular (apart from BikeSafe).

The local IAM group (LAM) are bike-only, and fairly big. They also do a fair few weekend rides and overseas trips, which might be a laugh. However, it's mainly old blokes, and I'm not sure they really cover much town riding. My understanding is that it's mainly country lanes and A-roads, which are two things I hardly ever encounter in my day-to-day riding.

My local RoSPA group seem near-impossible to get hold of, so I might have to write that off before I even start. I've also read a lot of their literature, and it all seems very SPEED KILLS, MORE CAMERAS, SAVE KITTENS. Not sure I can deal with their ethics Laughing I'm also not particularly keen on the idea of a 3-year re-test, although I can understand the appeal.

I know you can also do other further training, e.g. DIAmond, the ERS (Enhanced Rider Scheme), the BMF Blue Riband, etc., but I have no real knowledge of these or how they work. I'd be interested to hear from anyone who's had experience of anything other than IAM/RoSPA/BikeSafe and how they got on with it.

I also plan to do a few trackdays as I'm sure I'll learn as much, if not more, from riding the bike in anger.

tl;dr - what's the best advanced training to do, and why?

My main interest is becoming a better, safer rider, but I'd like something with a bit of a social aspect if possible. I don't have any biking pals, so meeting up with some people for the occasional hoon would be good. I'm not doing it for the (almost certainly negligible) insurance savings, although I'll take 'em if they're there Laughing

What say you, BCF?
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grr666
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PostPosted: 16:14 - 22 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm doing my DIAmond Elite advanced test later this year. To attain this level I can make no more than two minor errors
during the course of the 'examined' ride, and must complete a pretty long commentary ride section. Since this was part and
parcel of my training to drive a bus many years ago I can switch into commentary mode with relative ease. Thumbs Up I had the
assessment day out ride (7 hours, just me and the instructor) last year and was appraised as being more than capable of
passing the elite test, which was nice to hear. I was bought the course as a gift so I never got to choose which advanced
course to do. If my wife has asked me what I wanted, in all honesty I wanted to go to wheelie school. Laughing I can't
wheelie for toffee. Crying or Very sad
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grr666
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PostPosted: 16:28 - 22 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Which is why I want to learn (On someone elses bike and insurance).
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 16:35 - 22 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bikesafe, IAM and RoSPA all pray at the altar of Roadcraft.

Bikesafe can only give a very brief taster, but it's a fun day. The copper doing mine noted that the people who sign up for it tend to be the ones who need it the least, which is cheery.

I also failed to get in touch with the local RoSPA group - I think I was supposed to use a carrier pigeon.

The IAM were, as you note, old(er) blokes, but not necessarily slow(er) blokes. The chap I did my assessed ride with was a track racer.

And yes, they were all about Making Progress on B roads, and seemed surprised that anyone would even ask about town riding. Guess what Roadcraft focusses on?

In the end, I sodded them off because they didn't ride as they preached. Too much speed over blind crests and bends because they were riding on the assumption that the road they couldn't see was clear. Or had X-ray vision. Since their assessment of my riding was "Moar speed, go faster", we parted ways.

It's entirely down to the local group though, so I'd encourage you to give them a try.

What I will say is that if you actually self assess your riding on an ongoing basis, you're probably going to do better than someone who's got themselves a gold star and then treats it as a licence to ignore everything they've just learned.
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AshWebster
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PostPosted: 17:08 - 22 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Since their assessment of my riding was "Moar speed, go faster",.


where can i find these guys? asking for a friend...
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Fisty
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PostPosted: 17:54 - 22 Mar 2018    Post subject: Re: FITE: BikeSafe v IAM v RoSPA v DIAmond v ERS v BMF v ? Reply with quote

Powderhead wrote:


tl;dr - what's the best advanced training to do, and why?



I am not taking the piss with what I am obout to say.

The best advanced training is a race school.

I learned more at Ron Haslams Race School in a day than I did on a 3 day ROSPA course.
Yes you are on a track, but EVERYTHING they teach you relates directly to road use and is a damn site more useful and fun.
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redeem ouzzer
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PostPosted: 18:00 - 22 Mar 2018    Post subject: Re: FITE: BikeSafe v IAM v RoSPA v DIAmond v ERS v BMF v ? Reply with quote

Fisty wrote:


I am not taking the piss with what I am obout to say.

The best advanced training is a race school.

I learned more at Ron Haslams Race School than in a day than I did on a 3 day ROSPA course.
Yes you are on a track, but EVERYTHING they teach you relates directly to road use and is a damn site more useful and fun.


+1 track riding is the only useful training. I was riding for 20 years then got into track work a few years ago. I’m now shitloads faster and more confident in a way road riding never taught me.
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Powderhead
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PostPosted: 18:03 - 22 Mar 2018    Post subject: Re: FITE: BikeSafe v IAM v RoSPA v DIAmond v ERS v BMF v ? Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies all.

Rogerborg wrote:
And yes, they were all about Making Progress on B roads, and seemed surprised that anyone would even ask about town riding.


Are there any you're aware of which focus more on town riding?

Rogerborg wrote:
Since their assessment of my riding was "Moar speed, go faster", we parted ways.


Is riding too slowly (in their opinion) a fail? Clearly, if you're doing 30 up the motorway then it's too slow, but I definitely don't want to be pushed into doing a full 60mph at all times on every single country road.

Fisty wrote:
The best advanced training is a race school.

GT200Fan79 wrote:
+1 track riding is the only useful training.


Good call. I'll probably end up doing both at some point to be honest. A "sensible" IAM/RoSPA-type one and a Ron Haslam/California Superbike School-type one. And some track days Cool


Last edited by Powderhead on 18:04 - 22 Mar 2018; edited 1 time in total
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P.
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PostPosted: 18:03 - 22 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Road courses teach you to avoid potholes and traffic/stationary scenery whilst attempting to make a good pace.

Track = confidence and speed and learning.

Agree with the 2 above...

Or you could just go and do your local roads really fast until you find your limit, that will likely involve another vehicle and/or lamp post.
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grr666
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PostPosted: 18:11 - 22 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there are elements of both that are useful. Haven't tracked a bike yet but have numerous times on 4 wheels.
I'm not sure tracking a car taught me any new skills for on the road that I never already had but I do acknowledge the
more physical side of riding a bike aggressively might be better learned away from traffic. That's not to deny the validity
of an advanced road course, in my opinion if you learn just 1 thing that saves your bacon one day in the future then it
was worth the effort and expense whether that was on track or on the Queens highway.
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P.
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PostPosted: 18:13 - 22 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can drive a car fast around a track.

Bike was much harder to feel comfortable and to learn the edge of its traction or the size of my balls.
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Freddyfruitba...
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PostPosted: 19:22 - 22 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Bikesafe, IAM and RoSPA all pray at the altar of Roadcraft.
Bikesafe can only give a very brief taster, but it's a fun day. The copper doing mine noted that the people who sign up for it tend to be the ones who need it the least, which is cheery.
I also failed to get in touch with the local RoSPA group - I think I was supposed to use a carrier pigeon.

Definitely agree with all that. Interestingly I never managed to get in touch with IAM, which was mainly why I have come to be with RoSPA currently. After a Bikesafe (which as noted, is only one session) I decided to sign up to either IAM or RoSPA and my research suggested they were much of a muchness, and nothing I've heard or found out since since has made me think otherwise. As Roger says I'm sure it's really down to the aptitude and enthusiasm of your local group, and success/failure to contact prospective punters is probably a good starting point!

So, I'm doing the training with RoSPA at the moment. I definitely rate it and really feel I've learned a lot, both in terms of machine control etc and personal safety - even if I was to stop now and not take a test I'd certainly say I'm a better and safer rider than before I started.

As for track days.... absolutely, great idea and yes it will improve your riding, but it's certainly not a replacement for road training. You're obviously not going to learn about safe road positioning (in terms of other road users), overtaking and general cager-avoidance skills which are key to staying shiny side up.

Good luck whatever you decide
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 21:04 - 22 Mar 2018    Post subject: Re: FITE: BikeSafe v IAM v RoSPA v DIAmond v ERS v BMF v ? Reply with quote

Powderhead wrote:
Are there any you're aware of which focus more on town riding?

Nope, sorry. I can't think of anyone who teaches it, which seems like a gap in the market.


Powderhead wrote:
Is riding too slowly (in their opinion) a fail? Clearly, if you're doing 30 up the motorway then it's too slow, but I definitely don't want to be pushed into doing a full 60mph at all times on every single country road.

This was long about 2011 or so, so it may have changed now. IAM HQ was talking about dropping the focus on Making Progress, but whether that actually filtered down to the groups, I don't know.

I'd stress that we're not talking crazy antics here, I've seen far worse on group ride outs. And they were constructive in their assessment. Much of it is useful at any speed, like taking wider approaches, but the focus was definitely on "... so that you can go faster."

Check out your local groups, be up front about what you're interested in. Worst case you'll go on a nice ride on some roads that you might not know, so it's a win either way.
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mas101
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PostPosted: 21:20 - 22 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've seen a few people recommend this lot :
https://www.i2imca.com/About.asp
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duhawkz
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PostPosted: 22:10 - 22 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

i did the i2imca machine control level 1 a few years ago.

I think it was about £75 when I did it, its more about the physics of how motorbikes work.

counter steering, gyroscopic forces how bikes are inherently stable and the riders make them unstable.

It was interesting, it got you learning thing like
how hard you really can break,
stopping distances
slow speed control
how the bike behaves when you go over large objects

I wouldn't really call it an advanced riding course that will improve your road craft.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 23:54 - 22 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

duhawkz wrote:
how hard you really can break

I'd like to not find that out, thanks.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
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G
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PostPosted: 01:32 - 23 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was plenty of town bits in the IAM I did - thought being in the SE around Berkshire/Surrey/Hampshire way - you don't have any other choice.

They certainly made a point of 'training' in those bits too - however I think the group I went to was a pretty good one compared to many.
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UncleFester
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PostPosted: 07:26 - 23 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

i enjoyed the Bikesafes i've been on, i try and get one in early in the year as it's a gentle refresher and a good way to make sure bad habits aren't creeping in.

I do know IAM were making a point of NOT making a point about making progress but also agree with what Rog says about that not necessarily filtering down to local group level. Also from what i heard, they were making more of an attempt to offer rider training without it always leading to a test on the basis that improving general skills was a good thing in itself without the need / desire for a certificate to say so. So yes, approach your local group and see what training they will offer and how far they are prepared to tailor it.

The desire to filter at all costs / make progress isn't really my thing - i'd rather pick the road that has less traffic in the first place and as such, whilst i might enjoy the ride, I'm rarely in a rush.
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bamt
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PostPosted: 08:04 - 23 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing I've mentioned before about this kind of training - what goes on on an observed ride doesn't necessarily reflect how hard you are are expected to ride all the time.

If I'm out on a nice sunny afternoon (or even commuting with plenty of time) I may well bimble along, enjoying the weather, not even bothering to filter through slow traffic. That doesn't give an observer anything at all to work with to increase your skills (or even to see that those skills are already godlike), and potentially shows him someone who is timid and doesn't understand the performance and limits of the machine.

It's when you are pushing on, taking overtakes, approaching bends at speed etc. that there is something to look at and hone. Therefore there is a perceived need to "make progress" all the time when you are out with them, to explain why you didn't take an overtake opportunity (and there will be many times when you wouldn't) or why you took a sweeping bend at 30mph in the middle of the lane rather than 60mph making full use of the road (again, could be many valid reasons - but if you take every bend like that you are obviously not reading the road etc.).
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 10:38 - 23 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

bamt wrote:
what goes on on an observed ride doesn't necessarily reflect how hard you are are expected to ride all the time.

Which makes the process a farce, in my not at all humble opinion.

Consider that The Noble Roadcraft dictates that you should ride a road every time the same way that you ride it the first time, because your first impression of its potential hazards is more accurate than the false sense of security that comes not running into a tractor over every blind crest.

But I should ignore that and press on, in order to demonstrate that I've not accepted The Noble Roadcraft as my personal saviour?

I'll pass on passing that test, thanks. It doesn't meet my standards.
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P.
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PostPosted: 10:47 - 23 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shank69 wrote:
Honda Civics aren't fast Paddy Laughing Laughing


Thinking

Had Civic, sold cos slow and shit.

K den. Neutral Nice bit of off topic though. Which sock are you then?
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Freddyfruitba...
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PostPosted: 11:13 - 23 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Consider that The Noble Roadcraft dictates that you should ride a road every time the same way that you ride it the first time, because your first impression of its potential hazards is more accurate than the false sense of security that comes not running into a tractor over every blind crest.

Where d'you get that from? The whole point of Roadcraft is that you are continually assessing the road conditions all the time (see their favourite acronym IPSGA) and modifying your riding accordingly. And I don't know why you think Roadcraft would have you powering over a blind crest??
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 12:22 - 23 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Freddyfruitbat wrote:
Where d'you get that from?

A chap on here who was pimping IAM training by making exactly that point. I repeat it to emphasise that accepting The Noble Roadcraft into your heart should lead to you riding every ride consistently. The suggestion that there's somehow a more Roadcraft way to ride that you'd demonstrate only while under test is bizarre.


Freddyfruitbat wrote:
I don't know why you think Roadcraft would have you powering over a blind crest??

It wouldn't, that's exactly my point.

However, I saw IAM observers doing that while on an assessed run, and then bamt got all hard on me.
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Powderhead
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PostPosted: 12:25 - 23 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

G wrote:
There was plenty of town bits in the IAM I did - thought being in the SE around Berkshire/Surrey/Hampshire way - you don't have any other choice.


TVAM?
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G
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PostPosted: 13:18 - 23 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, TVAM. Some years ago now.
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