Resend my activation email : Register : Log in 
BCF: Bike Chat Forums


restricting to A2

Reply to topic
Bike Chat Forums Index -> New Bikers
View previous topic : View next topic  
Author Message

Fred3606
Two Stroke Sniffer



Joined: 26 Jul 2016
Karma :

PostPosted: 16:27 - 24 Mar 2018    Post subject: restricting to A2 Reply with quote

I am looking for a little info on restricting a bike 35-70kw to 35kw.
As I understand it the two common ways are to change over the ECU or to pop a few washers on the throttle bodies.

What I don't understand is:
-why the latter is so expensive for a few bits of metal
-why I cant find many ECUs out there unless they are 33kw second hand ones

Has anyone got advise about which road to go down. Which method is better? Where can you buy ECUs? How easy are they to fit? etc

Any help is appreciated. Thanks

Fred
____________________
...
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Teflon-Mike
tl;dr



Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Karma :

PostPosted: 19:38 - 24 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

The washers may be 'expensive' for a number of reasons:-

1/ - Certificate of Restriction

NOT a legal necessity; it's entirely down to you whether you choose to ride a legally A2 complient bike, the certificate has absolutely no legal standing, no matter how many coppas or insurance co's ask for one/expect you to have one. But there is a point when dealing with idiocy to just come down to their level and play dumm.. thing about idiots is they tend to always build a better version when ever you think you have a fool-proof-plan, and whether you do or dont, they'll still drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!

An 'official' looking Cert-of-Restriction, that passes officialdoms expectations, then is oft what is being paid for, more than the metal.

2/ - Proof-of-Restriction

See above. Not legally necessary, and not necesserily a bit of paper warranting restriction; But, if SOLD as a product that will make a bike legally A2 complient, then under sale-of-goods act it bludy better well should, or the seller could be in a mire of challenged to 'prove' product, as sold was fit-for-purpose.

Little bit of metal with a hole in it, then is not just a little bit of metal with a hole in it, its the R&D on that little bit of metal to make a hole just the right size and shape to actually restrict the engine just enough, then more, the Dyno time spent proving it... and NOT just on one engine, but any and every engine that washer is sold to restrict... and there in lies a lot of time on a dyno, to NOT necesserily 'defray' the costs of over millions and millions of product sold.

There's 30-million people in the UK; over half of them have a car-licence, and there are actually more registered and taxed cars than there are folk to drive them! There's only about 3 million bikes in the UK; and an awful lot more 'full' licence holders than there are bikes for them to ride. The actual 'market' for restriction kits for A2 compliant licence holders, is at best, PRETTY small.. 3 million motorcycles; half of them A1 class scooters and sub 125's. So around 1.5 million motorcycles, of which a lot will either be naturally A2 compliant, or ridden by RWYL 'A' licence holders to whom it don't matter. So how many A2 restriction kits is any-one ever going to sell in a year? The market is TINY, and the perms and coms of bikes they could buy and try to restrict many, and if they have to put almost every bike they may want to restrict on a Dyno to get 'proof-of-restriction' then, they are each going to have to bear a fairly large proportion of that development cost.

3/ ITS NOT JUST A FUGGING WASHER!

See above! It may be a pretty 'simple' artifact to make, BUT still has to be made, and in the sales volumes suggested, cost of tooling up to make one cannot be defrayed accross a mass-market sales volume.

Penny washers that are like £1 for 40 from screwfix are stamped out of sheet metal. They dont have to fit, accurately inside a carburettor manifold or throttle body, and the size of the hole down the middle is also subject to a pretty wide 'tolerance'... you get a washer that hasn't been properly blanked in a box from screw-fix when you are putting up the kitchen shelves, and it has no hole down the middle... you chuck it over your shoulder and grab another! You get a restriction washer that don't have a hole in it, you're motor isn't going to run very well!

Them washers have to be preccission made... comparitively.. that means that they have to be cut down to size, and sometimes shape, to fit, and not just fit but fit accurately and snugly within the intake tract. Holes have to be there.. and the right size to actuallu let charge flow through them, and 'just' restrict flow enough to ensure A" power limits.

Given the tiny tiny potential sales volumes, this means that they cant blank them on a press like screw-fix washers.. even if they could, they'd still need QC screening to make sure they had holes, and or be reworked by hand. Cheap and easy to hand make to start with, which means they are a high-labour artifact... MAY just be a simple bit of metal, but they are a pretty tightly engineered and there's more man-hours gone into one than there is metal! And that's skilled man-hours for a man that knows how to work a lathe, not a shelf-stacker on NMW like at Tesco's!

WHY would you imagine these things HAVE to be 'cheap' just because there's not a lot of metal in them?

4/ MARKETING

A fool and his money are soon parted! Supply and demand etc etc etc. There aren't a lot of folk who may buy these things, BUT those that might are probably pretty desperate. If saving money was really their top concern, they wouldn't have bought a big-bike to start with, or made life hard doing an A2 licence, more made life harder still buying a unrestricted bike and trying to MAKE it A2 compliant.

Market will demand what folk are prepared to pay, and folk are prepared to pay what people ask for these washers!

Advice on what route to go down?

No actual legal requirement for you to ride a bike, let alone one that's not inherently A2 compliant, and mod to be so. No legal requirement for an A2 licence holder to restrict with an off-the-shelf e-bay gizmo like a restriction kit OR ECU....

There's nothing to stop you getting non A2 compliant, but restrictable bike, and doing whatever YOU want to make it A2 compliant.... Law merely states that its YOUR responsibility as licence holder to ensure, by whatever means, bike you ride is within licence entitlement.....

Ultimate answer is a Dyno-Print out of THAT actual bike you are riding.... which is a slittle vague as far as when that dyno-print was taken, and whether at the time of riding it's still making power described by Dyno-Print, and plenty more queries of how accurate the dyno-run may have been to start with..... B-U-T

No reason why you cant restrict by putting a screw in the throttle twist grip to stop it opening all the way; putting it on a Dyno, turning the screw down until A" power is achieved, then aralditing the screw in place. Or putting 'throttle-stop' anywhere else on the throttle actuating mechanism, like the actual throttle butterfly lever, or the cable adjuster; OR making your own washer to restrict flow, from a bit of plastic cut from a stak-a-box, to taking the engine to bits and filing down the cam-lobes!

HOW you choose to restrict your bike, is ONE question

How you choose to PROVE... if challenges that it's restricted... a completely seperate one.

A-N-D question is what will who-evber is asking acctually 'accept'.. some form filling insurance clerke, who knows nothing about bikes and has even less interest, probably wants to see a bit of paper saying "Certificate of Restriction"... makes them happy, makes thier life easy, job done.

Coppa at the side of the road.. if a little more clues up, could challenge that, and insist its as worthless as we all say, because you dont actually have to have a restricted bike to have a bit of paper that says "Certificate of Restriction" on it..... could go to court, and there, judge will want some 'assurance' that in the balance of probability; a) you have done 'something'.. a receipt from a guild garage, would be pretty good.... photo's and schematics of your own home-brew restriction mech would be interesting; b) Whatever has been shown to be done... WORKED.... Ie they will want to see a Dyno-Print to show that it's got power beneath A2 limits.

Thems your options... pretty much endless.. like law says, its UP TO YOU to 'ensure' bike you ride is within licence limitations.... how you do that, and how you may choose to convince an insurance co or coppa or court is then also down to you..

What you want, is a cheap and easy, off the shelf, no hassle, guarantee... that dont cost you any time or money or hassle! Sorry... but, you want to ride a non A2 bike on A2 licence, you do the leg work.. easy answer is to catch the bus, or buy a bike naturally A2 compliant.

Makes your choices - pays your money - takes your chances - its ALL your call, and sorry but we dont have a magic wand to fix your problem, and make all 'cheap and easy'... you want cheap and easy... buy a bike that's A2 complient in the sales brochure.
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website You must be logged in to rate posts

NJD
World Chat Champion



Joined: 11 Mar 2015
Karma :

PostPosted: 22:47 - 24 Mar 2018    Post subject: Re: restricting to A2 Reply with quote

The modern A2 is a fucking farse and the only person I've ever found that sells restriction kits for bikes to comply to the modern licensing is a guy on eBay that, interestingly, one dealer refused to fit kits supplied by them -- I've since forgot why.

I have one of them fitted by the dealer I purchased the bike form and it runs fine but I've never actually seen the kit or dyno'd the bike.

It's far easier to do the wrong thing than it is the right. Ninety-nine percent of reasoning to actually but a restriction kit is anxiety because in the real world a copper would seize the bike and dyno it themselves if they were that in question about if what you say you've got is how its set up.

I've never once been stopped, including while riding around with a "restriction kit" I paid for.

Buy a bike that does comply to the restriction law and do whatever you feel comfortable with ie: buy a kit and get it fitted or don't buy one and don't cry if anything ever goes south.

In a way the only bikes that are made for the A2 are A2 bikes that are shite because they're only A2 -- in that they're 47 hp and that's it. A2 is basically a middle weight CBT.

I might escape this bollox in the summer and get my A over with. Laughing
____________________
The do it all, T̶h̶e̶ ̶b̶r̶o̶k̶e̶n̶ ̶o̶n̶e̶,̶ ̶T̶h̶e̶ ̶b̶i̶g̶ ̶l̶u̶m̶p̶,̶ ̶C̶h̶o̶n̶g̶ ̶N̶o̶o̶d̶l̶e̶
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Fred3606
Two Stroke Sniffer



Joined: 26 Jul 2016
Karma :

PostPosted: 21:38 - 26 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for the help
very informative
____________________
...
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

stevo as b4
World Chat Champion



Joined: 17 Jul 2003
Karma :

PostPosted: 09:28 - 29 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

The best A2 bikes IMO are the ones that are naturally compliant as you say, and the worst ones are the upper power limit ones that you need to restrict. I do agree that less effort is put in by manufacturers these days to making nice, interesting and fun A2 bikes. You can blame economics, limited market and poor profitability for this.

But I don't get why people that have gained an A2 licence are so butthurt about it and think A2 bikes are all shit and a waste of time?

Back in the 33bhp days you could if you looked find some pretty cool and fun bikes to ride in that licence category, and I don't remember people bitch moaning about why the 33bhp restricted licence was such a load of shit?

As progressive licence system newbies, where would you all like the power and weight limits set at? And you do have to accept that there's a reason for progressive licencing and why it should exist especially when cost isn't the main factor.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

NJD
World Chat Champion



Joined: 11 Mar 2015
Karma :

PostPosted: 12:58 - 29 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not the bikes themselves, although that is a factor, but rather the license.

Unlike the 33 hp restriction there is no automatic upgrade and therefore after two years (or if they reach 24 before that time) one faces themselves with the same situation that they were in post CBT, albeit with a nicer bike and a full license to hand. Ie, do you pay the same several hundred to perform the same hoop jumping tricks or do you go through the faffery of doing it on your own bike? I'm not stupid and nor is the examiner and therefore we both know there's no way I've removed the: seat, tank, air box, carbs and then removed the restriction kit.. as people suggest saying. I'm not overthinking it, here, but simply saying the training school, for most, is more convenient than D.I.Y.

The bikes are a pain in the arse because finding one is a needle in a haystack. You have to research power figures (with various sources claiming various figures), find one within budget (a bike that you can afford and like) and then find one that's local. I asked endlessly about GS 500's when I first started looking because that's all that was around at the time (beside GPZ 500's, Bandit 600's and SV 650's). There's no point forking out for a new A2 47 hp bike because by the time you've started to feel like you're out-riding it there's nothing to "unlock," as such, when the restriction is removed.

And, as above, one place I spoke to refused to fit the kits self-supplied by the eBay seller. The restriction kit in itself is not available from a trusted source and thus the whole thing feels like an after thought.

My ZR-7S is a nice bike, has plenty of power for around town and is enjoyable to work on, and therefore own, but I had to hunt a little to find it. Slightly annoying seeing bikes I could swap out for -- because everyone gets a niggle after a year, or two -- and knowing I've got a hoop to get through before I can try different kinds.

Oh, and don't forget the issue that Borg has explored many times in stating that when it comes to insurance there is a potential loss of two years worth of license holding depending on the way the question is worded on the insurance website and the person's -- you -- interpretation of that question.
____________________
The do it all, T̶h̶e̶ ̶b̶r̶o̶k̶e̶n̶ ̶o̶n̶e̶,̶ ̶T̶h̶e̶ ̶b̶i̶g̶ ̶l̶u̶m̶p̶,̶ ̶C̶h̶o̶n̶g̶ ̶N̶o̶o̶d̶l̶e̶
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

B0ndy
Spanner Monkey



Joined: 25 May 2015
Karma :

PostPosted: 13:30 - 29 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

The restriction kit for most bikes (which is essentially 4 washers) is £65 and the restriction certificate isn't worth the paper it's written on.

A2 is a big mess.

My advice is don't bother but don't listen to me, I may have broken the law but riding around without one and endangered millions of kittens.
____________________
CBF 125 -> CB400SF -> GSX600F -> ZX6R (G1) -> GSXR1000 K4 -> ZX6R (B1H Stunt bike) -> VFR800 -> R1 5PW -> Sprint 1050 -> Fireblade 929 -> ZX10R C2H
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts
Old Thread Alert!

The last post was made 6 years, 1 day ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
  Display posts from previous:   
This page may contain affiliate links, which means we may earn a small commission if a visitor clicks through and makes a purchase. By clicking on an affiliate link, you accept that third-party cookies will be set.

Post new topic   Reply to topic    Bike Chat Forums Index -> New Bikers All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Page 1 of 1

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum

Read the Terms of Use! - Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group
 

Debug Mode: ON - Server: birks (www) - Page Generation Time: 0.11 Sec - Server Load: 0.3 - MySQL Queries: 17 - Page Size: 68.02 Kb