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Supermarket fuel?

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Freddyfruitba...
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PostPosted: 22:41 - 07 Apr 2018    Post subject: Supermarket fuel? Reply with quote

I read a thread here recently about whether it was worth paying the extra for the higher octane petrol. This post is a bit different - is it OK to buy cheap petrol from supermarkets?

Basically for as long as I can remember have always bought standard grade, el cheapo petrol from Tesco or Asda for both bike and car if at all possible; and although I'm really not a petrolhead, I've experienced no apparent ill effects that I'm aware of. But tonight I had a conversation with a mate who nearly fell off his chair at this revelation. He apparently goes out of his way to buy non-supermarket fuel, and had horror stories of engines and FI systems getting gummed up by crap fuel "which is cheap because it doesn't contain any of the necessary additives to keep your engine running smoothly", with expensive stripdowns etc required.

All news to me. What say you, BCF?
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Triton Thrasher
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PostPosted: 22:47 - 07 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do all your mates have under-developed brains?
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Powderhead
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PostPosted: 23:07 - 07 Apr 2018    Post subject: Re: Supermarket fuel? Reply with quote

Freddyfruitbat wrote:
He apparently goes out of his way to buy non-supermarket fuel...


...because he's an idiot.

/thread
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Courier265
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PostPosted: 23:15 - 07 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nothing wrong with Supermarket Fuels, I tend to use them more often to
save time by paying at the pump. The fuel is okay, all my bikes run okay.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 01:01 - 08 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

It can have a pretty high ethanol content which can cause probolems if you have an older bike.
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Barnoe
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PostPosted: 01:07 - 08 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the UK, all pump gasolines and diesels are governed by various national and international standards – notably European and CEN Standards.
These require vehicle fuels to conform to minimum world-agreed quality and performance standards… so in Europe, supermarket fuel is as good as any.

Source
https://www.petrolprices.com/news/supermarket-fuel-and-premium-petrol-the-lowdown/
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 01:31 - 08 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

While they conform to the same standard, they are not all the same.

For example, tesco momentum has 5% ethanol while most BP super unleaded has none. It's because pure ethanol is around 140 octane so upping the ethanol content is an inexpensive way of increasing the octane rating of cheap fuel.

Problems with fuel system componants on older vehicles aside, the higher ethanol content fuel has a lower energy density. You get less bang per ml out of it.

Probably not noticeable for most vehicles but to assert they are all as good as one another because they conform the the same standard is inaccurate. Bells and Balvenie both conform the the standard for Scotch whisky but they are not as good as one another.

What comes out of my kitchen tap in Cumbria conforms to the same drinking water standard as what comes out of a tap in London but I know which I'd rather drink.
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Triton Thrasher
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PostPosted: 08:56 - 08 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
What comes out of my kitchen tap in Cumbria conforms to the same drinking water standard as what comes out of a tap in London but I know which I'd rather drink.


Sellafield Spring, every time.
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Dave....
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PostPosted: 09:56 - 08 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

All the petrol is taken from same place e.g. Grangemouth refinery for Scotland.
Its what the individual oil companies add to the petrol that differentiates it from the others by adding detergent or unicorn piss or whatever which apparently is added to tanker rather than the fuel in production.
So I was told by someone who drove tanker for BP for years but he always was a bit of a blether.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 09:58 - 08 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never really used anything other than supermarket petrol for the last six or seven years since I rejoined the biking fraternity'.
Doing at least 10k miles a year using either a 90s vintage sports bike or a relatively recent triumph I've never had a problem with fuel. the nearest to a fuel related problem was when the plastic casing for the fuel pump on my 25 year old fz split...
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weasley
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PostPosted: 10:00 - 08 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave.... wrote:
All the petrol is taken from same place e.g. Grangemouth refinery for Scotland.
Its what the individual oil companies add to the petrol that differentiates it from the others by adding detergent or unicorn piss or whatever which apparently is added to tanker rather than the fuel in production.
So I was told by someone who drove tanker for BP for years but he always was a bit of a blether.


He was right. There are only a limit number of refineries to get the ‘base’ fuel from, but the additives that make the difference are dosed during loading. Additives such as detergents, stabilisers, ignition modifiers, foam inhibitors etc.

I avoid supermarket fuel unless it is the only possible option in an emergency.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 10:31 - 08 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 'additives' are probably detergents.

Supermarket fuels are fine.
People who report problems may have been filling from plastic containers or other vessels and introduced shite themself.

Too much pish on the internet about this.

Some supermarkets sell their own super fuels same performance as the big boi's stuff.

Most motorcycles cannot use the super fuels to the super fuels biggest potential as a knock sensor is required. Unless you tune your engine to use only high octane fuels.
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fireyphoenix1...
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PostPosted: 10:57 - 08 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I try to run BP unlimited, shell V power and Sainsburys premium. Why ?.
My mates drives tankers, he tops off the local shell V power and then straight to Sainsburys to top them up.

I think the condition of the underground tanks in some stations regardless of brand however is a FAR bigger issue.

IE i will never fuel up at shell fleetwood again. When i buy a bike the first thing i do is a full servicing including flushing the tank and cleaning the carbs, checking the emulsion tubes and needles for wear ect as preventive maintenance.
Three separate bikes developed fueling issues within 100 miles of fueling up there. Always blocked pilot jets.

This should not be an issue as the pumps have filters on them, but some times stations get lazy and dont replace them.
I now i just try to stick to stations that i know have recently installed tanks or with a high rate of custom as the fuel is generally better than at small privately owned stations which only get topped up every few months.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 13:44 - 08 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

fireyphoenix1989 wrote:
I try to run BP unlimited, shell V power and Sainsburys premium. Why ?.
My mates drives tankers, he tops off the local shell V power and then straight to Sainsburys to top them up.

I think the condition of the underground tanks in some stations regardless of brand however is a FAR bigger issue.

IE i will never fuel up at shell fleetwood again. When i buy a bike the first thing i do is a full servicing including flushing the tank and cleaning the carbs, checking the emulsion tubes and needles for wear ect as preventive maintenance.
Three separate bikes developed fueling issues within 100 miles of fueling up there. Always blocked pilot jets.

This should not be an issue as the pumps have filters on them, but some times stations get lazy and dont replace them.
I now i just try to stick to stations that i know have recently installed tanks or with a high rate of custom as the fuel is generally better than at small privately owned stations which only get topped up every few months.

Probably de-rate/shut-off the pump when filters clag up.
They will be more protective of their pumping equipment than your machines. Smile

The most likely crap in fuel tanks will be some water as it is difficult to prevent condensation.
Some dust from breathers and routine dipping/filling operations.
And possibly bacteria growth. (Lives in water feeds on the hydrocarbons in fuels/oil.)

They use de-watering devices and barrier filters to keep what they sell clean.

We fire about 15000 litres/day through our engines from fuel truck deliveries three or four times per week.
We very, very seldom if anytime have issues with dirt/water in our fuel.
That is a substantial amount of fuel to use and have not much problem with.
We have two filter stacks after our bulk tanks, water separators and filters after the 'daytanks' and then the final filtration is on the engine.
The engines use 'High Efficiency' filters (removing particles of 2 microns and larger) due to the critical need for super clean fuel.
If the fuel supplied is shit we will notice more frequent clagging in the engine filters and mechanic will not get any sleep. Smile

I know for a fact that conditions in UK for fuel delivery is controlled to a much higher standard than anywhere we use fuel in the oil field.

Dirt/Clag in a product sold from a UK/European forecourt is not a concern I would worry about.
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barrkel
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PostPosted: 14:24 - 08 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
Problems with fuel system componants on older vehicles aside, the higher ethanol content fuel has a lower energy density. You get less bang per ml out of it.


Ethanol is about 90% as energy dense. So with a 5% ethanol content, you get 99.5% of the efficiency; with 10%, you get 99%.

Air temperature will have a much larger effect, in the region of 1.5% every 5 degrees.

Ethanol will also help remove water from your petrol tank.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 14:30 - 08 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

It also means you don't need to use lead in petrol because it raises the octane.
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Copycat73
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PostPosted: 16:48 - 08 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

barrkel wrote:

Ethanol will also help remove water from your petrol tank.


your gonna have to explain the chemistry / physics of that cos i was under the impression the Ethanol in petrol absorbed water and this causes rust / corrosion inside the fuel system .... Question

This is principally why i fill with 98ron over the winter because of its low ethanol content... Question
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Last edited by Copycat73 on 16:50 - 08 Apr 2018; edited 1 time in total
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 16:49 - 08 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
It also means you don't need to use lead in petrol because it raises the octane.


I thought lead had been dispensed with before the introduction of ethanol came along?
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 17:08 - 08 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:


I thought lead had been dispensed with before the introduction of ethanol came along?


It was, but back when lead was introduced originally there was a bit of a debate between whether lead or ethanol should be used.
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kgm
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PostPosted: 17:15 - 08 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Copycat73 wrote:
barrkel wrote:

Ethanol will also help remove water from your petrol tank.


your gonna have to explain the chemistry / physics of that cos i was under the impression the Ethanol in petrol absorbed water and this causes rust / corrosion inside the fuel system .... Question

This is principally why i fill with 98ron over the winter because of its low ethanol content... Question


That was my understanding as well.
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kerr
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PostPosted: 17:41 - 08 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember probably 15 years ago iirc there was an issue with supermarket fuels gumming engines up, after they had to pay to fix punters engines they stopped selling piss water.

That's how i remember it anyway, i did smoke a lot of weed back then so could well be in my imagination. Laughing
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 17:45 - 08 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I seem to remember there was something that was in the news a good while back about supermarket fuels that made people mistrust them. Something to do with contaminated storage, perhaps? I would have thought that issue would have been resolved by now though?
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weasley
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PostPosted: 19:02 - 08 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was a widespread issue a while back where a high level of silicone had got into a batch of gasoline; this was then interfering with lambda sensors and causing some cars to shut down. It was mostly supermarket and cheaper retailers who were affected, although the method to identify the issue was developed by one of the majors as a service to the overall industry (even though they were not affected).

Ethanol will take up some free water, and hence remove it from the tank. However this water then runs through the fuel system and can cause issues by reacting with materials as it goes along.

You can affect RON a few ways; starting with the hydrocarbon base fuel blend and oxygenates/octane improvers such as ethanol or other alcohols or some ethers (eg MTBE).
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 20:02 - 08 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

weasley wrote:


You can affect RON a few ways; starting with the hydrocarbon base fuel blend and oxygenates/octane improvers such as ethanol or other alcohols or some ethers (eg MTBE).


Said so...
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recman
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PostPosted: 21:01 - 08 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I very rarely use anything but Asda fuel as its the closest option for me and I can pay at the pump which means no card cloning.
Car runs fine, bike runs fine, mower runs fine.
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