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Londoner2015
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PostPosted: 15:41 - 12 Apr 2018    Post subject: Insurers – prices pulled out of their ***** ? Reply with quote

Just a useless rant – not much anyone can do about it, of course.

Last year my insurer sent me a renewal quote for about £400; the website of the same insurer gave me a price of £240. Unfair, but understandable – the lazy tax. This time it’s been the other way round! Renewal quote of £180, website price of £600. What?

Other pearls of wisdom:
Insuring a £14k Turismo Veloce twice more expensive than insuring a £17k S1000XR, which is way more powerful

Without tracker cheaper than with tracker

A Tracer cheaper if kept on the road than in a garage, a Tiger (similar value) the other way around. Same address, same rider. Do the scumbags in that part of England not steal Tracers left on the road, just those in a garage?

Quotes fluctuating by +-30% from one month to the next

A mate was quoted £200 + £ 40 admin fee, because, halfway through the policy, he moved by as much as 1 mile, which “caused the risk profile to change”, according to Janine from the call centre (same bike, parked on the road in both cases, etc.). Surely the scumbags who canvass one area for bikes to steal don’t venture 1 mile out.

One more thing I have never been able to make sense of is why, for 4 wheels (never happened with 2 so far) comprehensive is almost always cheaper than third party fire and theft. The press likes to say it’s because drivers who get comprehensive are more careful, but it sounds like nonsense, because all it takes to compare comprehensive and TPFT is one banal mouse click – getting one or the other doesn’t mean you belong to a specific category with a different risk profile (eg 18 year olds vs middle-age).

I have honestly given up and come to terms with the fact that insurance quotes will vary wildly for no apparent reason.

How about you? Do you have similar experiences?
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Howling Terror
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PostPosted: 15:52 - 12 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got a renewal quote.
Shopped about.
Got a call about renewel and I asked if they could better it. No was the answer and could I tell them who it was with. You I said.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 15:58 - 12 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Howling Terror wrote:
Got a renewal quote.
Shopped about.
Got a call about renewel and I asked if they could better it. No was the answer and could I tell them who it was with. You I said.


Go on, what did they say to that?
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Howling Terror
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PostPosted: 16:11 - 12 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

'Hold the line whilst I pretend to check with my boss'

'We can go with that quote'.

They chance their arm in the knowledge that a lot of people don't bother with a few phonecalls or a comparison site.

My insurance is cheaper if I tell them I don't (do) use a ground anchor.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 16:16 - 12 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's all based on statistics.

Turismo Veloce owners crash more than S1000XR owners.

People with trackers crash more than those without.

Tracer owners with garages crash more than those without garages.

People who live where you mate used to live crash more than they do where he's moved to now.

People who have fully comp crash less than those with TPO or TPFT.

Assume nothing. Play with all the variables.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 16:44 - 12 Apr 2018    Post subject: Re: Insurers – prices pulled out of their ***** ? Reply with quote

Londoner2015 wrote:
This time it’s been the other way round! Renewal quote of £180, website price of £600. What?

That's kinda how it should be IMO, if they want to keep your custom.

Londoner2015 wrote:
One more thing I have never been able to make sense of is why, for 4 wheels (never happened with 2 so far) comprehensive is almost always cheaper than third party fire and theft. The press likes to say it’s because drivers who get comprehensive are more careful, but it sounds like nonsense, because all it takes to compare comprehensive and TPFT is one banal mouse click – getting one or the other doesn’t mean you belong to a specific category with a different risk profile (eg 18 year olds vs middle-age).

Because car insurance is an even bigger scam. We're lucky with bikes there are still some* insurers offering cheap TPO policies, particularly for youngins or those living in shit areas.

*well one in my case Confused

Howling Terror wrote:
'Hold the line whilst I pretend to check with my boss'

'We can go with that quote'.

They chance their arm in the knowledge that a lot of people don't bother with a few phonecalls or a comparison site.

My insurance is cheaper if I tell them I don't (do) use a ground anchor.

I was told they couldn't, because prices change all the time Rolling Eyes, so I let my policy expire and took out a new one with them. Saved £150 Thumbs Up
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Londoner2015
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PostPosted: 16:55 - 12 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ste wrote:
It's all based on statistics.


And what statistics justify fluctuations of +-30% in the space of 3-4 weeks?
Ever heard of the concept of spurious correlations? https://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations
The more data you have, the higher the risk of ending up with cases like those. Especially because the pricing algorithms tend to be black boxes, in which it is effectively impossible to isolate and assess the impact of a single factor.

I remember reading this book about the perils of becoming slaves to algorithms, and of passively accept that “the computer said so”: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/28186015-weapons-of-math-destruction


As for TV owners crashing more, there are so few TVs registered in the world, especially here, that I very much doubt anything meaningful can be inferred.

But I can understand the owners of certain bikes can be seen as riskier; I won’t suddenly become a suicidal idiot if I ride an R1, but, statistically, there may be more crash-prone idiots riding R1s than riding, I don’t know, a CB500X. What I can’t get my head around is comprehensive being cheaper. Unless they intentionally overprice TPFT in the hope most people won’t bother making that mouse click and comparing the price.

Ste wrote:

Assume nothing. Play with all the variables.

So true!
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Londoner2015
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PostPosted: 17:00 - 12 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Howling Terror wrote:


My insurance is cheaper if I tell them I don't (do) use a ground anchor.

I never declare my 20Kg Pragmasis chain, only my Abus U-lock, because it never makes a difference, and because I clearly I cannot take the 20Kg chain with me when I'm out and about, but I can and do carry the Abus. At home I use Abus + Pragmasis. I want to avoid a situation in which an insurer refuses to pay out because I hadn't locked my bike in central London with a 20 Kg chain.
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grr666
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PostPosted: 17:13 - 12 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I moved away from London (which is your issue btw) and as soon as I changed my address on my existing car
insurance, I got a £400 rebate. But if you will live and work in the culturally diverse utopia that shows the rest of us what
we must avoid becoming at all costs. Then in a variety of ways, you pays the price. I wouldn't go back if you bought me house
and paid me to sit in it all day.
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Londoner2015
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PostPosted: 17:18 - 12 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

@grr666 , that's not the point. Of course I understand that London will be more expensive than InTheMiddleOfNowhereshire. My gripe is with the inconsistencies I have mentioned (all quotes obtained in London).
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grr666
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PostPosted: 17:34 - 12 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is no different anywhere. My £100 comp policy on my bike could have cost me £300 if I'd have paid it.
Never renew, always ring around. I have 4 vehicles on the road, I shop around for all of them. I'm halfway between
Bath and Bristol give or take, an hour further south and then you're really in the arse crack of nowhere.
We even have shops, schools and special shoes for our funny little webbed feet round 'ere. Laughing

Pisstakers will always take the piss if they think they can get away with it, insurers are the worst because they sell a
legally required product. Shop around, don't bother or suck on a fat meaty renewal quote them's your choices.
It's the same for everybody. Even in Upyerbumshire, it's just that the numbers are smaller.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 17:35 - 12 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Londoner2015 wrote:
And what statistics justify fluctuations of +-30% in the space of 3-4 weeks?

Being able to get your policy for 30% cheaper is a strange thing to be unhappy about. Laughing

As far as spurious correlations, they're not interested in isolating an assessing the impact of a single factor. All that matter to insurance companies is how much their customers cost them.

There is a statistical reason for why it costs twice as much for you to insure a Turismo Veloce as it does to insure a S1000XR. There's something in their big table of statistics which says if they insure you to ride a Turismo Veloce then you're more likely to end up costing them money than you would if you're on a S1000XR. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Fully comp being cheaper than TPO is straightforward, people who want fully comp insurance take more care than people who just want TPO. It's not dissimilar to how

Remember, they're profiling you as well as the vehicle.

Play all the silly inconsistencies to your advantage. A couple of years ago with my home insurance I discovered that the policy was slightly cheaper if I told them I don't have any smoke alarms rather than telling them I have two smoke alarms. WTF is that all about? Laughing At the same time, ticking the box to say I have a tree that's taller than two meters within 5 meters (I think it was 5, could be wrong about that detail though) also made the quote cheaper. Eh?

It's not my place to question their reasoning, that's their lookout. Laughing
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Londoner2015
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PostPosted: 17:42 - 12 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Ste"]
Londoner2015 wrote:


Play all the silly inconsistencies to your advantage.

I am wondering if any clever clogs have come up with a way to automate the creation of online quotes, and therefore to compare the impact that tiny, apparently irrelevant differences can have on the price. I do play with quotes online (without lying, e.g. tweaking the job description, with vs without tracker, etc), but I'm not going to spend hours and hours trying all the possible combinations.
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Londoner2015
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PostPosted: 17:46 - 12 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

grr666 wrote:

Pisstakers will always take the piss if they think they can get away with it, insurers are the worst because they sell a
legally required product.

Any Kiwis on the forum? AFAIK in New Zealand there is some kind of state-funded compensation scheme which covers injuries caused by car accidents (not damages to property), so car insurance is not compulsory . I am wondering if this forces Kiwi insurers to behave more transparently?
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Ste
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PostPosted: 18:00 - 12 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Londoner2015 wrote:
I am wondering if any clever clogs have come up with a way to automate the creation of online quotes, and therefore to compare the impact that tiny, apparently irrelevant differences can have on the price.

Narp.

As you say, there's only so much fiddling around that anyone can be bothered to do. It just comes down to how much is your time worth to you. Laughing

New Zealand car insurance....

"Motorists pay for this insurance through annual vehicle licence fees and also through a portion of the tax paid on every litre of fuel purchased. In New Zealand there's no need for third party insurance to cover injuries because we already have a form of compulsory 'insurance' that covers injuries caused by a car accident."
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Ste
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PostPosted: 18:03 - 12 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

NZ car insurance sounds complicated. Confused

https://www.expatfocus.com/expatriate-new-zealand-car-tax-insurance
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M.C
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PostPosted: 19:03 - 12 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ste wrote:
Fully comp being cheaper than TPO is straightforward, people who want fully comp insurance take more care than people who just want TPO.

It depends. Bangers are normally more to insure for that reason, but when you get to more expensive vehicles surely being TPO leads to you being a little more careful? Smile I'm not gonna neglect a nice bike, and I also know if I stack it on my own that's 2-3k down the drain.
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thx1138
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PostPosted: 20:28 - 12 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ste wrote:


that's what I thought when I was there

think they need their version of an MOT twice a year too?

The suzuki motorcycles in the dealers showrooms seemed stupidly cheap, I assume they add an after sales tax and don't show it on the price tag?
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grr666
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PostPosted: 20:38 - 12 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also they aren't shipped as far.
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Kentol750
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PostPosted: 20:44 - 12 Apr 2018    Post subject: Again? Reply with quote

I posted about this not long ago.....fucking lottery. Then today Mrs sorted her renewal...155 in post....shopped around and it's 88! And that's with me on the policy as an instructor!
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MCN
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PostPosted: 20:49 - 12 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ste wrote:
It's all based on statistics.

Turismo Veloce owners crash more than S1000XR owners.

People with trackers crash more than those without.

Tracer owners with garages crash more than those without garages.

People who live where you mate used to live crash more than they do where he's moved to now.

People who have fully comp crash less than those with TPO or TPFT.

Assume nothing. Play with all the variables.


All of this /\

Safe cars are not safe just because of design.

The biggest variable is the nut behind the wheel.

Sensible folk drive sensible cars. Sensible folk drive sensibly.

Senseless folk drive senseless cars senselessly.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 21:13 - 12 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

MCN wrote:
Ste wrote:
It's all based on statistics.

Turismo Veloce owners crash more than S1000XR owners.

People with trackers crash more than those without.

Tracer owners with garages crash more than those without garages.

People who live where you mate used to live crash more than they do where he's moved to now.

People who have fully comp crash less than those with TPO or TPFT.

Assume nothing. Play with all the variables.


All of this /\

Safe cars are not safe just because of design.

The biggest variable is the nut behind the wheel.

Sensible folk drive sensible cars. Sensible folk drive sensibly.

Senseless folk drive senseless cars senselessly.

I can't find any logic behind any of it. For example last year X car cost the same to insure as Y car. This year X car is 25% cheaper.
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Londoner2015
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PostPosted: 21:18 - 12 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I'm not the only one who finds it a lottery - at least this is reassuring.

Speaking of oddities abroad, any Mexican around? How does insurance work there, given that in most states (maybe all for all I know) there is no driving test? You just "apply", possibly bribe someone in the process, et voilà... here's your licence!
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Freddyfruitba...
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PostPosted: 22:50 - 12 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, talking of insurers pulling quotes out of the arses, how about this...

My son recently got his first car insurance renewal (£795 after a year with no claims, on a black-box policy) - Admiral proudly told him it was £5 cheaper than last year). He did the usual runaround and found a quote elsewhere for £680; phoned Admiral to cancel the autorenewal and was instantly offered £650. So far, so normal. However, good lad, he said he's think about it but meanwhile please cancel the autorenewal anyway.

That's where things got more interesting. The Admiral droid wouldn't let him go, and said 'well, let's see what else we can do". He noted that I was a named driver on the policy, and said 'let's see if taking Dad off brings it down a bit". Well that wasn't going to happen, since the reason I'm even on the policy is to bring the premiums down, which it has done quite significantly on every single quote my son's ever had (as my son told the droid). Well, surprise surprise, taking me off the policy dropped the Admiral quote by a further £90, so now down to £540! Clearly the figure was completely anally derived, based on how much leeway there was in the premium profit margin.

Out of interest, two weeks later my son phoned them back, the day before renewal, asking how much he could reduce his new renewal premium by adding his dad onto the policy. Can't blame him for giving it a go! but sadly the answer was -£90!
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M.C
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PostPosted: 23:24 - 12 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Freddyfruitbat wrote:
Well, talking of insurers pulling quotes out of the arses, how about this...

My son recently got his first car insurance renewal (£795 after a year with no claims, on a black-box policy) - Admiral proudly told him it was £5 cheaper than last year). He did the usual runaround and found a quote elsewhere for £680; phoned Admiral to cancel the autorenewal and was instantly offered £650. So far, so normal. However, good lad, he said he's think about it but meanwhile please cancel the autorenewal anyway.

That's where things got more interesting. The Admiral droid wouldn't let him go, and said 'well, let's see what else we can do". He noted that I was a named driver on the policy, and said 'let's see if taking Dad off brings it down a bit". Well that wasn't going to happen, since the reason I'm even on the policy is to bring the premiums down, which it has done quite significantly on every single quote my son's ever had (as my son told the droid). Well, surprise surprise, taking me off the policy dropped the Admiral quote by a further £90, so now down to £540! Clearly the figure was completely anally derived, based on how much leeway there was in the premium profit margin.

Out of interest, two weeks later my son phoned them back, the day before renewal, asking how much he could reduce his new renewal premium by adding his dad onto the policy. Can't blame him for giving it a go! but sadly the answer was -£90!

Yep similar experience with them. It was £750 taking my dad off the policy, so I let it expire and got it for £600 with him back on. I ran a quote with him off and it was more than with him on, so Admiral obviously use it as some BS bartering tactic, knowing full well they're still well above their best quote Rolling Eyes

Also they were trying to offer me a 10 month policy Confused
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