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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 13:47 - 08 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
In the context of the speech, why do you think Trump mentioned the UK knife problem?

Let's watch it together. We can skip the first 20 minutes of biglying up himself to get to the actual gun speech.

https://youtu.be/0tyi5j3PIzY?t=1341

The London part is here:

https://youtu.be/0tyi5j3PIzY?t=1528

The context is that he is in favour of law abiding people, including business owners, being armed. Not with "automatic assault rifles and the like".

He is also making the point, with reference to London, that banning legal guns does not prevent bad people from using unlegal guns, or knives, or vans and trucks, to murder-kill. It only disarms the law abiding.

Which of his actual statements trigger you the hardest?
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Fizzoid
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PostPosted: 15:33 - 08 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:

"Dindu" in this case can also be angry, messed-up High School students with access to Mom's gun locker.


Why does it need to be Dindu?

Weren't the last few mass shootings in the US carried out by legal gun owners?
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M.C
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PostPosted: 16:27 - 08 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
The rights or wrongs of where the guns are coming from in $CURRENT_YEAR (M.C. is wrong, Ste is right) aside, they are coming, and they are being used.

M.C wrote:
Edit: also came across this earlier.

Tue 14 Nov 2017

So completely irrelevant? Eh?

Johnnythefox wrote:
We should gives blacks guns so that they can kill other blacks more 'efficiently'

Here's the problem, with guns being hard to get hold of they're usually the preserve of serious criminals, or at least the nuclear option when it comes to solving disputes.

If you increase their availability they'll be used for any minor dispute, as knives are, and more worryingly street muggings etc. which they currently aren't. You then massively increase the collateral damage.

For example: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-17300327 - I don't think they would have accidentally knifed the 5 year old girl would they?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 16:31 - 08 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fizzoid wrote:
Weren't the last few mass shootings in the US carried out by legal gun owners?

The ones that have hit the headlines, yes. In gun free zones.

However, the mass of shootings and other gun crime are carried out by Dindus.

If you only care about the the headlines, then legal gun ownership is the bigliest problem. Apparently even the God Emperor can see past that though. The laugh is that he can use the CDC report commissioned and then buried by Obama to make that point.

Don't be dumberer than the God Emperor, please.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 16:43 - 08 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Fizzoid wrote:
Weren't the last few mass shootings in the US carried out by legal gun owners?

The ones that have hit the headlines, yes. In gun free zones.

However, the mass of shootings and other gun crime are carried out by Dindus.

If you only care about the the headlines, then legal gun ownership is the bigliest problem. Apparently even the God Emperor can see past that though. The laugh is that he can use the CDC report commissioned and then buried by Obama to make that point.

Don't be dumberer than the God Emperor, please.

So where do the illegal guns come from?
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Ste
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PostPosted: 17:36 - 08 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

In this country or in Merica?
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 17:58 - 08 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
The context is that he is in favour of law abiding people, including business owners, being armed.

Every member of society tooled-up ready to murder someone. I can't see it ending well.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 18:24 - 08 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ste wrote:
In this country or in Merica?

Merica.

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:
The context is that he is in favour of law abiding people, including business owners, being armed.

Every member of society tooled-up ready to murder someone. I can't see it ending well.

It won't, as common sense the US/UK murder stats prove. But wait all those extra deaths are people protecting their propertah right?
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WD Forte
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PostPosted: 18:36 - 08 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

You never know,
he might drive past a grassy knoll one day........
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Last edited by WD Forte on 18:37 - 08 May 2018; edited 1 time in total
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 18:37 - 08 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

And if you're roaming UK cities without a knife you're asking to be knifed.

And if you're in a part of the world which 'Murca keeps putting boots on (i.e. anywhere) the logical response is to match whatever their top level of weaponry is. Ultimate deterrent. Actually that makes sense. Disarmament is for pussies, no?
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Fizzoid
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PostPosted: 08:40 - 09 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:

The ones that have hit the headlines, yes. In gun free zones.

However, the mass of shootings and other gun crime are carried out by Dindus.

If you only care about the the headlines, then legal gun ownership is the bigliest problem. Apparently even the God Emperor can see past that though. The laugh is that he can use the CDC report commissioned and then buried by Obama to make that point.

Don't be dumberer than the God Emperor, please.


Oh, I understand that most of the dindu/gang related killings go unreported, internationally at least, I'm just not sure arming the general populace is the solution

I mean, if I have a bad day at work, I may go home and kick the cat. What I don't do is go get my legally held AR, and shoot up the local cinema
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MCN
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PostPosted: 18:47 - 09 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

WD Forte wrote:
You never know,
he might drive past a grassy knoll one day........


Inshallah.
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BTTD
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PostPosted: 08:58 - 10 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fizzoid wrote:
I mean, if I have a bad day at work, I may go home and kick the cat. What I don't do is go get my legally held AR, and shoot up the local cinema


Neutral Is that a common problem?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 09:46 - 10 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fizzoid wrote:
I mean, if I have a bad day at work, I may go home and kick the cat. What I don't do is go get my legally held AR, and shoot up the local cinema

You could quite trivially obtain a legally held shotgun and do a pretty good job with large grape.

What you couldn't do is take it to the cinema to protect yourself from Evil Fizzoid's shotgun rampage.

However, it's interesting to note that totally illegal handguns are used by Dindu far, far more often than legally obtainable shotguns.

With gun crime rising, and the most popular weapon being the one that's completely banned, with no exceptions, wut do?

Double ban it?
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 11:18 - 10 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

On Trump bashing.....

Oh dear, what are the Trump haterers going to say now that he has just got the captives home from North Korea.

I expect everyone else (read Obama, Merkel, mother Teresa) did it and Trump is just stealing the accolades.

Of course he is. Cool
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M.C
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PostPosted: 11:31 - 10 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
ou could quite trivially obtain a legally held shotgun and do a pretty good job with large grape.

What you couldn't do is take it to the cinema to protect yourself from Evil Fizzoid's shotgun rampage.

Can you in large parts of America? I thought you had to be in a carry state.

Rogerborg wrote:
Double ban it?

You make efforts to stop the illegal supply? Eh? As they have with easily converted replica firearms etc..
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 12:27 - 10 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:
ou could quite trivially obtain a legally held shotgun and do a pretty good job with large grape.

What you couldn't do is take it to the cinema to protect yourself from Evil Fizzoid's shotgun rampage.

Can you in large parts of America? I thought you had to be in a carry state.

You can't in a "gun free zone", which is why virtually all mass Murcan shootings occur in "gun free zones" (I do like leftie articles that confirm the substantial facts while desperately flapping their hands over what the definition of "is" is).

To the best of my recollection, all UK shootings since at least 1968 have occurred in "gun free zones".


Rogerborg wrote:
Double ban it?

You make efforts to stop the illegal supply? Eh? As they have with easily converted replica firearms etc..[/quote]
Sure, let's give that a try. Can you let the police know that they actually need to do something about gun crime? That would be very helpful.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 12:44 - 10 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
To the best of my recollection, all UK shootings since at least 1968 have occurred in "gun free zones".

Humour me, how does this work in your head? Dindu has a gun and points it at another Dindu. Rogerborg of justice is nearby and takes out Dindu number one? I thought we didn't care about Dindu on Dindu?

Rogerborg wrote:
Sure, let's give that a try. Can you let the police know that they actually need to do something about gun crime? That would be very helpful.

It was over a decade ago (iirc) they brought in new rules around selling replicas. Anyway I thought the problem wasn't with police but lawmakers?

Out of interest has anyone ever tried to mug you?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 12:57 - 10 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:
To the best of my recollection, all UK shootings since at least 1968 have occurred in "gun free zones".

Humour me, how does this work in your head? Dindu has a gun and points it at another Dindu. Rogerborg of justice is nearby and takes out Dindu number one? I thought we didn't care about Dindu on Dindu?

What? Of course I don't. Why on earth would I? I wish them the best of luck, with a double-fatality being the cheapest and most welcome outcome.

I only care about me and mine. I'd prefer Dindu to be unarmed (he won't be able to get a shooter legally due to having a criminal record despite him being a good boy anorl) and myself to be armed.

At the moment, at most one of us will be armed, likely with a knife - the God Emperor's point (and edge), remember - and it won't be our heroic taxpayer.

Rogerborg wrote:
Anyway I thought the problem wasn't with police but lawmakers?

The problem is that we don't gas the Deltas and Omegas who are incapable of making an honest living, or unable to delay their gratification long enough to try.

That is primarily a political issue.


Rogerborg wrote:
Out of interest has anyone ever tried to mug you?

Yes, outside Central Station in Glasgow Toon in the middle of the day by a "Gie's yer money" jakey or baghead, trembling fist raised. I was so politely bemused by the attempt that he was flummoxed, and simply sloped off.

That was a pushing on for 30 years ago though. Having seen what's swarming around there today, I doubt it would be as charming an anecdote now.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 13:07 - 10 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
he has just got the captives home from North Korea.

Wasn't there talk of North Korea's underground nuclear test facility collapsing in on itself and bringing the programme to a halt? Kim Jong Un has saved face by 'agreeing' to stop, which suits everyone. Plaudits all round.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 13:31 - 10 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
I only care about me and mine. I'd prefer Dindu to be unarmed (he won't be able to get a shooter legally due to having a criminal record despite him being a good boy anorl) and myself to be armed.

I noticed you ignored my earlier question about where the (illegal) firearms in the US came from, when Reggie says they're smuggled into Chicago from other states.

Rogerborg wrote:
At the moment, at most one of us will be armed, likely with a knife - the God Emperor's point (and edge), remember - and it won't be our heroic taxpayer.

Out of probably 50*+ mugging attempts (from what I can remember) twice they had a knife, once they had what looked like a gun... a mate and I didn't hang around to find out if it was real (I'd guess not but you never know). This doesn't include all the I'll shank you threats where they might have had a knife, just when I actually saw one.

Anyhoo my point is the media might be exaggerating the problem, just like with the last peak in violence around a decade ago. The only thing that feels different is the (lack of) policing, or at least standoffish policing highlighted by a former err... black copper.

*the guys who waited outside our school regularly seeing who they could try and rob boosted this number somewhat. This culminated with a guy in the year above (who tried to fight back) getting slashed across his face. He was on his way to a GCSE exam Neutral
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 14:08 - 10 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
I noticed you ignored my earlier question

You could fill a whole forum section with questions that I ignore.


M.C wrote:
about where the (illegal) firearms in the US came from, when Reggie says they're smuggled into Chicago from other states.

Yes, fewer legal guns = few unlegal guns.

But no legal guns != no unlegal guns.

It'll be just super when there are no gun and knives on UK streets - have you let the police know that's within their remit yet? Tell them that it'll prove Trump wrong, as opposed to right, which he currently is.


Rogerborg wrote:
Out of probably 50*+ mugging attempts [...] *the guys who waited outside our school regularly seeing who they could try and rob boosted this number somewhat. This culminated with a guy in the year above (who tried to fight back) getting slashed across his face. He was on his way to a GCSE exam Neutral

And the teaching staff didn't intervene because they had no means to protect themselves.

Imagine if they did.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 14:42 - 10 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:

Yes, fewer legal guns = few unlegal guns.

But no legal guns != no unlegal guns.

It'll be just super when there are no gun and knives on UK streets - have you let the police know that's within their remit yet? Tell them that it'll prove Trump wrong, as opposed to right, which he currently is.

Wait so are we in agreement with more legal guns you end up with more illegally held guns? What are we arguing about then? Eh?

Rogerborg wrote:
And the teaching staff didn't intervene because they had no means to protect themselves.

Imagine if they did.

They didn't intervene because it was outside of school. We had a full time copper at our school... a woman who was about 5 foot nothing Confused The strategy was to try and keep knives out of the school. They even had a hoodie ban as if that would somehow help.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 16:01 - 10 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
Wait so are we in agreement with more legal guns you end up with more illegally held guns? What are we arguing about then? Eh?

The other issue, the God Emperor's point: that zero legal guns doesn't equal zero unlegal guns. Or knives. Or acid.

A disarmed populace is neither polite, nor safe.


M.C wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:
And the teaching staff didn't intervene because they had no means to protect themselves.

Imagine if they did.

They didn't intervene because it was outside of school.

Sure, that's one way of equivocating about the issue. More than their job's worth.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 16:22 - 10 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gun crime: How do weapons appear on England's streets?

Over the bank holiday weekend, a spate of shootings across England hit the headlines. They add to a picture of rising gun crime, after more than a decade of big decreases.

Although gun-related offences have risen for the past four years, there were still less than half as many gun crimes in England and Wales last year as there were in the early 2000s.

Where do the guns come from?

Guns are very tightly controlled in the UK. Those that end up on the black market often start off as legal guns - but become illegal because they are modified or their licence status changes.

For example, a legal gun covered by a firearms licence could be stolen from a farm or firearms dealer.

Murdered MP Jo Cox was killed with a gun that had been stolen from someone who held it legally with a licence.

Also, non-firing ceremonial guns or race-starting pistols can be modified to fire bullets.

And decommissioned guns used in conflict can be reactivated - especially because the standards of "deactivation" vary around Europe and in some cases the process is very easy to reverse.

In 2017, Europol - the EU police agency - said: "The reactivation of deactivated weapons and conversion of blank-firing firearms are among the main sources of illegal firearms trafficked in the EU."

The National Crime Agency (NCA) in the UK says blank-firing and deactivated guns are bought legally by organised crime gangs in Europe who then "reactivate" them - often by removing an obstruction from the barrel - and sell them in the criminal market.

Some of these then end up in the UK, often coming from Eastern Europe, hidden in heavy goods vehicles, by sea or even in the post.

Guns or parts of guns are also traded online. In 2015, NCA officers seized a gun that had been sent to a man in the UK in the post, concealed within a radio.

And finally, there is a growing problem in the UK of antique guns that use obsolete kinds of ammunition being fitted with home-made bullets.

The problem with antiques

The National Ballistics Intelligence Service (NABIS) said that it was identifying more cases where home-made ammunition was used, nodding to a rise in the use of antique weapons by criminals.

"One of the trends which emerged over recent years is offenders increasingly using obsolete calibre or 'antique' firearms, which are easier to get hold of," it said.

In one high-profile case, Paul Edmunds, a registered firearms dealer, was jailed for making ammunition to fit antique guns, which he then sold to criminal gangs. His guns were linked to about 50 crime scenes.

NABIS manages the national database for all recovered firearms and ballistic material, including bullets and cases.

It runs forensic labs and works with police forces in England, Wales and Scotland to link this recovered ballistic material to guns, where no gun is recovered at a crime scene, and to crimes.

In 2015-16, 30% of the guns used in crime that the organisation recovered and tested were "obsolete calibre", meaning they were designed for ammunition no longer produced - in other words, antiques that have been repurposed to be used in crime. This represents a significant rise over the past five years.

The rise in the use of antique weapons is thought to be a sign that non-antique guns have become more difficult to obtain.

Gavin Hales, a former director of think tank the Police Foundation says the fact that individual guns are found to have been used in crimes committed by different individuals suggests that the number of illegal firearms in circulation is likely to be quite small.

"Evidence of particular guns popping up all over the country tells us something about how hard it is to get hold of them," he says, adding that high prices mean criminal guns often get sold on rather than being destroyed after being used.

However, it also serves as an indication of how much damage just a small number of guns in circulation can do.

What types of guns are being used?

Handguns were the most common type of firearm used to commit offences last year, according to police records.

Some of these will also be converted guns, for example Baikal handguns designed to fire gas canisters are modified to turn them into lethal weapons.

They are followed by "imitation weapons". This category, which includes antiques and blank-firing guns that have been converted to fire bullets, has grown the most over the past 10 years.

Dr Helen Poole, an expert in firearms crime, at the University of Northampton, says evidence from Europe that far more firearms are recorded as stolen than are seized suggests an increasing number in circulation.

How common are these crimes?

Gun crime remains rare in Britain.

In England and Wales in 2016-17, there were 31 fatal shootings - or one for every 1.9 million people.

And there were 9,578 weapons offences that resulted in injury.

In the US, in contrast, there were 11,000 murders or manslaughters involving a firearm or one death for every 30,000 people.

There are particular hotspots in the police force areas that cover large urban centres.

London had the most firearms offences per head of population, followed by the West Midlands force area, covering Birmingham, West Yorkshire, covering Leeds, and South Yorkshire, serving Sheffield.

Last year:

- just over half of all firearms offences involved a gun actually being fired
- in just under half of cases, a gun was used as a threat
- in a small minority of cases, a gun was used as a blunt instrument
- There is evidence of a genuine rise in crime - NHS figures reveal an increase in hospital admissions in England for assault by firearm discharge.

But part of the increase in recorded offences could also be down to the police prioritising gun crime. As they focus more of their efforts on looking for these crimes, they find more.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44053904
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