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Pjay
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PostPosted: 18:26 - 20 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
How many guns did the terrorists have in the Manchester, London Bridge and Westminster attacks of last year?

34 dead and over 350 injured. Zero guns.

Guns don't kill people, nutjobs do.


Guns are very efficient in killing people, considering that is their main task. In a civilised society, is it fine to own a weapon thats purpose is to kill humans?

I personally think that outlawing guns in the US wouldn't bring down the murder rate massively, but it certainly would bring it down.
Even if one life is saved due to law change, surely that's a worthy change to make?
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 19:39 - 20 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
Driving a Transit can into a crowd of people is way more efficient than most guns.

Laughing You should tell the army.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 19:46 - 20 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:
In a civilised society

Aye, there's the rub.

Murca is too far gone for that to apply.

I'm wondering which way we're going.


Pjay wrote:
I personally think that outlawing guns in the US wouldn't bring down the murder rate massively, but it certainly would bring it down.

Even if one life is saved due to law change, surely that's a worthy change to make?

It rather depends which lives you're saving. The planet isn't under-populated.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 19:51 - 20 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
It sounds like you're saying that prohibiting law abiding people from carrying guns has no effect on gun crime.

But that can't be right. Eh?

I said several pages back the problem was that guns in circulation = guns getting into the hands of crims. Brick Wall Unless you finally have an answer to my question as to where all the illegal guns in the US come from?

Pjay wrote:
I personally think that outlawing guns in the US wouldn't bring down the murder rate massively, but it certainly would bring it down.
Even if one life is saved due to law change, surely that's a worthy change to make?

They have a much higher murder rate. Dunblane was in 1996, Columbine was 1999, you can only wonder what would have happened had they decided to change their gun laws as well.
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asta1
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PostPosted: 20:52 - 20 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:

They have a much higher murder rate. Dunblane was in 1996, Columbine was 1999, you can only wonder what would have happened had they decided to change their gun laws as well.


Worth noting that Dunblane was as much or more a failure of policing than exisiting gun laws. Based on the evidence I certainly wouldn't have given the chap a certificate and I think his had been suspended and then re-granted despite the recommendations of local officers just before he went loopy.

Also, it's very difficult to make an real comparison of US and UK gun crime stats for a number of reasons, very few of which are actually related directly to control of firearms.

Firstly, bear in mind that actually, guns aren't that uncommon even in the UK. Yeah, the US has orders of magnitudes more, but even so, there are over 500,000 UK shotgun certificate holders and 150,000 firearm certificate holders. Even if we assume that a fair proportion of peope have both, there are still more than 600,000 people in the UK with acess to firearms, that's approximately 1 in 100. Chances are you interact with someone on a weekly or even a daily basis who has guns at home and don't even know it.

That said, the culture around guns is very different in the UK versus the US. This is, IMO, generally nothing to do with the fact that a certificate is required for ownership. Instead, it revolves around the fact that self defence or being part of a 'well regulated militia' are not a valid reason for ownership in the UK. The only valid reasons for ownership here are:

- Historical collections
- Sporting usage
- Pest control.

This promotes a very different mindset in owners, as well as allowing various (generally sensible IMO) regulations to be imposed around storage, carry and access that would be considered an infringement of the right to self defense in the US.

For instance, in the UK, there is a legal requirement to store guns securely and away from casual access.

In real terms this means a police approved lockable cabinet, bolted to a wall and, in the case of rifles, with ammo stored seperately. If you store a gun 'around the house' or if you allow unrestricted access to your weapons, even by family members, then that's an offence.

It's my opinion that this is generally a good idea, but it'd never fly in the US, because for a gun to be a valid defense of your person, it needs to be accessible to you, or anyone else in the household, immediately, which requires the weapon to be out and loaded at all times.

There is also the mindset involved. If you chose to carry for defense, then you have accepted, at least subconciously, that you are willing to shoot someone with the gun. In your mind therefore, the gun is a weapon. That doesn't happen in the UK. In the UK, guns are tools or sporting items, not weapons. That's an important distinction in how they are handled and used.

Self defence also more closely integrates guns into every day life, which can lead to lapses in safe handling etc. I only ever touch my firearms for a specific purpose and they are only ever loaded in a very small subset of situations and locations. As such, it's quite easy to pay attention to safety rules etc, because, even as a firearm holder, holding a loaded gun is a relatively unusual situation which only occurs when the firearm is about to be used now. I don't think I would have quite the same focus etc, if loading your pistol was a daily occurrence like brushing your teeth or wearing a seatbelt and it was always on your person.

Case in point, I had a chat with a couple american colleagues whilst I was over there for work last year on placement and talk moved, as things do, to guns. One chap had a pistol and handed it to me for a look. I checked, and sure enough, loaded magazine, round in the chamber, safety on. If you handed someone a gun like that on my range here in the UK you'd get the most almighty bollocking and probably be asked to stop shooting. Cultural differences, driven by the role of guns as self defense.

That's why, whilst I would be in favour of some slackening of the UK laws (bring back pistols and semi-autos for sporting purposes, streamline the licensing process to eliminate pointless red tape), I am not in favour of self-defense as a reason for ownership, nor am I in favour of unrestricted access to all.

Yes, it may actually stop a few crimes, and actually it probably wouldn't have any bearing on use in crimes by say terrorists, or even kids like the last one who shot up his school, but I do think it would change the culture around ownership over here such that accidental shootings due to carelessness and unauthorized access by children would increase, and that's too high a price to pay in my mind.

As for the latest school shooting and use by terrorists, the bloke had researched and made improvised explosives as well. It wasn't a spur of the moment thing, it was premeditated and planned, so actually, he would probably have got his hands on a gun anyway, either through making one himself, or getting one from a different source.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 21:34 - 20 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

asta1 wrote:
Stuff.

And yet I don't know one single person with a firearms license. The culture's driven by availability. Like the 9 year old girl who shot an instructor dead (with a Uzi), Vs a forty year old running around some woods with an airsoft gun. I know which scenario I prefer.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 21:49 - 20 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
I said several pages back the problem was that guns in circulation = guns getting into the hands of crims. Brick Wall

A statement of the bleedin' obvious doesn't really need acknowledged.

That's the current reality that needs to be dealt with. The question for BCF to solve is: what should Murca do about it?

And in the long term, if our prohibition strategy continues to fail, when will we admit that the State has reneged on the contract to be the biggest gang in town, and what follows?
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 21:56 - 20 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
Driving a Transit can into a crowd of people is way more efficient than most guns.

Over to you.


A transit has a use aside from maiming/killing.
Do you see the distinction?

Arguing that a gun isn't dangerous, as you can use a knife/van/seaweed/golf club is a stupid stance to take.

Guns are for wars, not for the average Joe. America is a case in point, there are more killings by firearm in Texas in one year, than we have had in the last 50 years in the UK (probably). Based on the average UK death rate of 60 per year and Texas having around 3000, half of which are Homicide, the rest accidents/suicide.

Outlawing guns would at the very least save the accidental deaths.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 23:17 - 20 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
M.C wrote:
I said several pages back the problem was that guns in circulation = guns getting into the hands of crims. Brick Wall

A statement of the bleedin' obvious doesn't really need acknowledged.

That's the current reality that needs to be dealt with. The question for BCF to solve is: what should Murca do about it?

And in the long term, if our prohibition strategy continues to fail, when will we admit that the State has reneged on the contract to be the biggest gang in town, and what follows?

So why have you been trying to make the distinction between legal license holders and everybody else, if the availability of guns is the problem? The US are f**ked and I don't really care about them, they had their chance decades ago to introduce gun control and procrastinated/took backhanders. The UK is fine as it is. Outside of this topic I don't recall any debate on the issue, most people can see the benefits of our gun control.

Anyhoo that's all I have to say about that, you can only go round in circles so many times until you start feeling sick.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 08:26 - 21 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
So why have you been trying to make the distinction between legal license holders

To what "licence" are you referring? Just for clarity. So that we can be sure that we're both discussing the same issue.

M.C wrote:
if the availability of guns is the problem?

Because there's no "licence" to obtain most firearms in most States.

Because it's trivial to obtain them, either legally in-State, legally out-of-State, or illegally anywhere.

Because the issue is not who is obtaining them, but who is carrying and using them for mayhem, and where they're doing it. Which is overwhelmingly in "gun-free" zones against a helpless, disarmed populace


M.C wrote:
The US are f**ked and I don't really care about them

London is f**ked and I don't really care about them.

Well, they're regressing to the mean, perhaps, after a few good years of stop-and-search, and actual street policing. Halcyon days.

However, empires that have fallen into barbarism are instructive as to what will eventually happen to civilised regions if we simply pursue our current policies and policing priorities.

M.C wrote:
The UK is fine as it is.

Like the curate's egg.
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duhawkz
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PostPosted: 09:31 - 21 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Guns don't do it on their own you know?


Yet, but google are working on it.
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 09:47 - 21 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
In order to deliberately kill, both Transit vans and guns. need someone in control of them, to commit the act.

Guns don't do it on their own you know?


Stop being a fucking idiot for one moment.
Guns are designed to kill. A Transit is designed to carry goods from a to b.
As I said, it a stupid stance to take, stop being stupid. This is about guns, not what you can use as a weapon when there are no guns...

The accidental deaths saved by gun control would not automatically transfer to deaths by van. Only a fucking moron would argue this point any further, so crack on but I wont be responding to your idiocy.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 10:34 - 21 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:
As I said, it a stupid stance to take, stop being stupid. This is about guns, not what you can use as a weapon when there are no guns...

A more stable genius might take a moment to read the OP and the Al Beeb piece it references, and find that this thread is precisely about what villains can and do use as a weapon when there are no guns.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 12:53 - 21 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Pjay wrote:
As I said, it a stupid stance to take, stop being stupid. This is about guns, not what you can use as a weapon when there are no guns...

A more stable genius might take a moment to read the OP and the Al Beeb piece it references, and find that this thread is precisely about what villains can and do use as a weapon when there are no guns.

But haven't you been arguing that the public should have guns for self-defence?

As to what the USA could do, there was talk of improved mental health provision as the solution to High School shootings. (Admittedly schools are a small part of the gun problem, but the most shocking.) However, as far as I know there were no ideas on how to distinguish the moody but harmless teenager from the next gun-toting nutcase, so it would probably come to nothing.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 13:05 - 21 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
But haven't you been arguing that the public should have guns for self-defence?

Not the public, me.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 17:10 - 21 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
M.C wrote:
So why have you been trying to make the distinction between legal license holders

To what "licence" are you referring? Just for clarity. So that we can be sure that we're both discussing the same issue.

M.C wrote:
if the availability of guns is the problem?

Because there's no "licence" to obtain most firearms in most States.

Because it's trivial to obtain them, either legally in-State, legally out-of-State, or illegally anywhere.

Because the issue is not who is obtaining them, but who is carrying and using them for mayhem, and where they're doing it. Which is overwhelmingly in "gun-free" zones against a helpless, disarmed populace


M.C wrote:
The US are f**ked and I don't really care about them

London is f**ked and I don't really care about them.

Well, they're regressing to the mean, perhaps, after a few good years of stop-and-search, and actual street policing. Halcyon days.

However, empires that have fallen into barbarism are instructive as to what will eventually happen to civilised regions if we simply pursue our current policies and policing priorities.

M.C wrote:
The UK is fine as it is.

Like the curate's egg.

F**k me are you ever not a pedantic bore? You need a license in the UK, you've been going on about licensing guns, and giving them to UK citizens so they can go all rambo whenever they feel the need to. You'd assume we'd go back to what we had before (rather than the US free-for-all), you know when we had mass shootings, and all those kids died, and we decided to try and and stop history repeating itself Rolling Eyes

Yes US gun laws are all over the place, I'm fairly sure we've already established that. If you don't give a f**k about London then why do you give a f**k about people protecting themselves against Dindu? Eh? It's funny how I can live and work in this city without feeling I need a gun for protection, despite the crime etc., and I'm willing to bet most people feel the same way.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 20:33 - 21 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's unfortunate that you were unable to express yourself clearly, but the past is passed and we're on the same page now.

London is still less stabby-shooty than its been in the past. However, incisive observers will note that it's on a startlingly sharp upwards trajectory and the Met seem to be losing their grip on the streets. It's not too edgy to wonder when tangs will get so bad that law abiding residents will have had it up to the hilt.
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