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Ninja 250R Vs. ZXR400 for first bike?

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Barney626
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PostPosted: 14:21 - 12 Jun 2018    Post subject: Ninja 250R Vs. ZXR400 for first bike? Reply with quote

Hi all,

New biker doing his A2 in a few weeks and looking to get his first bike. 20 years old with 3 years car driving experience.

Have a budget for the bike of sub £2000, ideally around £1500.

Was looking at the EX250-J models as they seem to be roughly at my pricepoint but noticed some of the ZXR400s are going for that too.

Insurance is relatively similar on each, the ZXR400 being a little cheaper.

Will be using the bike for fun and commuting to work (10 minute ride each way). Also planning on taking it with a group of bikers around france in september...

Any opinions on these?

I drive a Renaultsport clio 197 so fairly used to being faster than most traffic which makes me think i might get bored of the 250 pretty quick.

Only concern is reliability of the 400. I'm a student mechanical engineer so I can do maintenance but obviously my supply of money is fairly limited so cant go buying new carbs every week...

Cheers
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B5234FT
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PostPosted: 14:51 - 12 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMHO, neither.

The 250 is the more sensible option of the two, newer, better (cheaper) spares availability and simpler.

An I4 400 sports bike is a bit of a love affair, cool bikes (I'd love one) but most are in need of a full resto now, or command good money and spares arent common, or cheap.

Personally, for £1500 and a 10 mile commute on a restricted license, I'd be looking at any of the standard 500 and 600 cc bikes that can be restricted.
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Barney626
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PostPosted: 14:52 - 12 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

B5234FT wrote:
IMHO, neither.

The 250 is the more sensible option of the two, newer, better (cheaper) spares availability and simpler.

An I4 400 sports bike is a bit of a love affair, cool bikes (I'd love one) but most are in need of a full resto now, or command good money and spares arent common, or cheap.

Personally, for £1500 and a 10 mile commute on a restricted license, I'd be looking at any of the standard 500 and 600 cc bikes that can be restricted.


Did you have any specific models of 500/600 in mind? I just kinda assumed they would all be above my price range?
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B5234FT
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PostPosted: 15:40 - 12 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

500 twins are typical commuter territory and include things like:

Suzuki GS500
Kawasaki ER-5 or GPZ500
Honda CB500

All tough as old boots if a bit dull, used by riding schools up and down the country, common spares and cheap used parts

https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/first-rides-tests/2009/june/jun2609-5-great-500cc-commuters/

For 600s, you'd need to look at what can be restricted, but within your budget:

Suzuki SV650 or SV650S, Bandit 600/650, gladius
Yamaha Fazer 600
Honda Hornet 600
Kawasaki released the ER6 to replace the ER5 but its probably a little new and expensive

https://a2bikes.co.uk/browse
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 16:43 - 12 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neither is the correct answer (probably).

I ride a Ninja 250, but I'm a geezer, and its modest performance suits me. It's fun, but it's only mid range car fast, and you won't enjoy riding in company with bigger bikes when they romp away and then wait for you to catch up.

With the ZXR400 you'll be chasing a decreasing number of sellers who will likely value their pride and joy more than you will, or have a story to tell that ends with "... was running fine before it wasn't, probably an easy fix, I just don't have the time." Also, it'll need restricted for A2, which would be a shame.

Most bikes that you'll want need to be restricted or "restricted", so you might as well get a 600 or 650. Top candidates would be a Fazer 600 (the old FZS600, not the later FZ6, and get the best and latest one that you can find), an SV650S, or an ER6. They can absolutely be had in your budget.

Don't overlook anything decent that comes up for sale locally in budget though. Bandit 650s and the faired GSX650F are worth a look.

Be guided by what you like and don't like on your training and test bike, which will likely be a restricted 650, and if at all possible blag a quick test ride. You'll be surprised how much bikes differ from each other in riding style, so don't decide based on Top Trumps numbers.
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Barney626
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PostPosted: 17:12 - 12 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheer for the replys.

I'm gonna be silly and say I'm only interested in sportbikes.

Also, I'm gonna need to get this bike within a week after my test due to time constraints, or before the test. So probably won't be able to see what I like on the test.

There are only two things that attract me to the ZXR400 over the ninja 250:

The extra performance and the sound of an inline 4.

I'll be going round with another ZXR400, a ninja 650 (But the guy rides it like a pensioner) and another 600. I doubt I'll necessarily get left behind on the 400 but the 250 maybe.

The main catch with the 500/600s is insurance tends to be quite a bit more expensive (About 50% more expensive)...

I think out of the two kawis, the 250 is the more sensible choice as it's newer and injected. But honestly the 400 just looks like a lot more fun...
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha
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PostPosted: 17:35 - 12 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

The correct and ludicrously obvious answer is the 400. However - and that's a massive "how" and a really vast "ever," the ZXR would need to be a one owner 1998 bike, with low miles (e.g. 20k max), and those miles would have to be well-spaced across the past two decades (not all bunched up in the first five years, then the bike left to stand with petrol in its carbs, tank oxidising and callipers binding, etc. etc. for fifteen years). It would need to have excellent paperwork with it, detailing all service work. The owner would have to be a total MILF who hung onto the bike for sentimental reasons, and totally cherished it. She'd have to be incapable of lying and explain that she'd only ever ridden the bike in summers, and laid it properly over the winters - never revved it over 7k or thereabouts (enough to make it work and heat it up properly, but not so much that it's being thrashed).

So, in short, the 250.
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Barney626
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PostPosted: 17:46 - 12 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another note, it's likely I'll only be keeping this bike for a year then moving on to something else...
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c_dug
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PostPosted: 18:09 - 12 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Definitely buy the 400, they're generally reliable and great value for money, and yours will definitely be one of the good ones, for absolute certain.



That's the answer you're after, right?



Meanwhile, those of us who have been riding for a few years are advising you look in a different direction. Not slower necessarily, nor not sporty. There are appropriate bikes that tick those boxes, and that isn't why the zxr isn't appropriate.

The fact of the matter is that you'll find newer, more reliable, generally better bikes for your money. Old 400s have a place for sure, I'd love one as a second bike, for much the same reason I bought my Tuono 125. But as a bike to be cheap and reliable, look elsewhere.

I'd suggest Japanese and late 90s onwards. I'm a big fan of the gpz500 but I get that it isn't everybody's cuppa tea.Fzs600 is another good shout for sure.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 18:21 - 12 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

£1,504 of ZXR400 https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/-/232788811748?nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l10137

34k miles and "everything on the bike is completely original, even down to the chain And sprocket".

Looking at sold items on eBay and it's not completely impossible that there's a sub £1,500 ZXR400 which isn't a complete shed.

If you can find a good ZXR400 that's within budget then it would be very tempting. How happy you'll be with it commuting 10 miles (each way?) every day remains to be seen.
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dydey90
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PostPosted: 18:54 - 12 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you don’t ruin the ZXR, it’ll go up in value.
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Barney626
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PostPosted: 19:21 - 12 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

c_dug wrote:
Definitely buy the 400, they're generally reliable and great value for money, and yours will definitely be one of the good ones, for absolute certain.



That's the answer you're after, right?



Meanwhile, those of us who have been riding for a few years are advising you look in a different direction. Not slower necessarily, nor not sporty. There are appropriate bikes that tick those boxes, and that isn't why the zxr isn't appropriate.

The fact of the matter is that you'll find newer, more reliable, generally better bikes for your money. Old 400s have a place for sure, I'd love one as a second bike, for much the same reason I bought my Tuono 125. But as a bike to be cheap and reliable, look elsewhere.

I'd suggest Japanese and late 90s onwards. I'm a big fan of the gpz500 but I get that it isn't everybody's cuppa tea.Fzs600 is another good shout for sure.


Knew I'd get one of these snooty answers soon enough...

I am well aware all of you have vast amount more experience with bikes than I do.

But I am yet to see an alternative to the two I had in mind which ticks the boxes for me really. I'm not set on either of them, but from what I can see they are the one's that I'll be most happy with so far.

I knew the ZXR400 was likely to have reliability issues but was worth asking in case they happened to actually be somewhat reliable.

Really not a fan of the fazer looks tbh...

I'll say it again, as a 20 year old, first year rider, 600cc insurance is not great from what I've seen.
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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 19:22 - 12 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forget ZXR and any other 400's they will all be either:
Too knackered, too old, hard to get spares for and all that hassle on a knackered baggy bike probably ridden with bodges loose damaged plastics and fasteners for 1year?? OP only really wants a sports bike, and is prepared to be off the road searching for parts, or elbows deep inside the bike every month sorting out problems?

You either want a rider or a project, and if your keeping a bike for one year maximum maybe two, then how about a clean tidy bike that might not lose much money if kept decent in that time? If you found a ZXR worth having it'll be well out of your price range, as their day of first bikes was 20years ago, when as TM said they were either too knackered or old for their home market so we bought them to blighty to finish them off.

Look at good NC30's they are stupid money as there's a small market of would be RC30 owners that must have one. The ZXR/FZR etc etc will be the back up inflated price option for those that can't find/afford one, and so you'll want well over your £2k for a good/nice appreciating one.

You'd be better with a newer bike like a Ninja 250/300, R3, or CBR 500 etc.

If you want cheap and older and capable then a CB500S or GPZ will be much more bike to ride than they look. Sure they look dull but they're much better to ride than they should be going by the looks. You won't lose cash on a good one either.

To not lose cash on the price a decent 400 is, you'd have to keep it spotless and ideally low mileage. Not everyones idea of fun, a polisher instead of a rider.
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el_oso
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PostPosted: 19:38 - 12 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had zero problems with the recent CBR250. I picked that up for £1400 a couple of years ago, did 20k on it and sold it on for £1100 a month or so ago.

Was super cheap to run and had a blast trying to stay with the group at BCF BBQ. Hard to not recommend as a cheap reliable A-B bike that you can run at full throttle everywhere.

I also wouldn't discount the fazer, they were cheaper to insure that the sports 250/400 class bikes when I was at uni, don't know if that has changed now.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 20:00 - 12 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have a play around with insurance quotes for lots of different bikes to see what bikes are even an option for you. Thumbs Up

Whether or not you'd get left behind on a 250 when out with your mates 100% depends on how they ride. Laughing
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 20:05 - 12 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

The ZXR400 is likely as old or older than you are. They did officially import a few of them into the UK in the 90's in full-power form, mostly for SuperSport 400 class racing against the 250 two strokes. Most though were greyimports. The genre was built peculiarly for the Japanese home market where licence and taxation regs effectively denied bigger bikes to the masses, who saw the 6oo's 750's and others at the shows, but couldn't ride them. So they were scaled down bigger bikes.
For starters this makes them rather diddy and cramped for anyone of shall we say more usual 'eurpoean' proportions.... though shorter women did apreciate them.
Next up; in the UK new bike sales had been wayning for a decade, and the strengthing Yen made new bikes incredibly more expensive year on year inb the show room. Between 1990 and 1993, the same bike in the brochures saw the sticker price rise by around 25%.. you could buy new in the show room in 1990, on HP, and by the time you had paid off the monthlies, if you had saved up the installements until you could pay cash, that same bike would have gone up in price faster than you had been saving, and still couldn't afford it.
There was also a small crisis in the insurance industry; Norwich Union, had for over a decade increased its market share to account for something like 95% of all motorcycle policies, on a 'rationalisation' of thier business model, that grouped bikes purely capacity and value, so it cost more to insure a 45bhp single like a Yamaha XT660, than it did a 40bhp Triumph Bonaville, or even an 80bhp Honda CBR600, with lots of fragile fairings that could see one 'written off' for falling off its side stand, when the fairings got cracked.
The cult of the grey-bike 400's was then in response to this.
First, the Japanese domestic market was supported by reguloations to see bikes effectively written off as 'scrap' by about 5 years olf, to promote new bike sales and help the domestic manufacturers.
These 'Big Bike replicas' were then very very cheap to buy, in Japan, as 'scrap'... where new bikes in Europe were very very expensive, and the 400's could be stuffed into containers, shipped half way around the world and sold as second hand bikes, here, where second hand bikes were few and far between due to the increasing new bike prices and falling sales, for very good profits... and they looked like the bigger bikes, and had techno features the Japanese loved, and red lines on the tacho we'd never even dreamed of.
They were, for almost a decade, the 'cheap' alternative to a 600 or 750 'sports'. thanks to insurance chaos, they were often cheap to insure, they boasted, supposedly, performance way beyond anything in the class or older bigger air-cooled iron, like the 550 sports of only half a decade before...
And folk that couldn't afford to buy or insure the 600 or 750 they really wanted.... bought them, and thrashed them, and crashed them, and then discovered that parts supply to fix them was a tad more difficult than for the bigger genuine market models.....
And given that they had bought them because of the 'cheap' to start with, they rarely got the 'expensive' parts and maintenance they deserved along the way.... and an awful lot of them quickly reverted to being the scrap they were originally exported from Japan as.
THAT was before you were born......
Now... they have a cult status, and a legend, often built more on dreams than reality, but still; and there are a lot of 400fans out there, and a lot of garage trophy's given the moneyno-object care and attension they didn't get quarter of a century ago... but theres still also a heck of a lot of scrap... often sold by folk hugely optimistic of the value and performance.

TODAY... on an A2 licence.. with licence regulations framed specifically to deny the 600 sports bikes, because they make too much power, and they make too much power to even be restricted.... they suddenly look like a good idea again to get those, admitedly now dated 'sports bike' looks they were originally built for, and with perhaps 6obhp at the crank, power in excess of what you could get out of a more mundane A2 bike, that can be restricted or made to appear restricted to be legal on A2....

BUT... its still a 20+ year old old bike, and one with more sketch after-market support to be able to look after to any standard, but age meaning it will likely need it, and style suggesting its likely never had it, and its still a scaled down replica of a 9o's big bike, where even the big bike was a tad cramped for anyone over perhaps 5'7".

A 2o year old bike... ANY 2 year old bike, does NOT tend to make for a peculiarly wonderful every-day rider, that starts on the button and goes for thousands of miles on little more than an oil change..... sportsbikes... that are often painful in town traffic, and scrub out expensive sticky tyres in incredibly short order, do not make for peculiarly wonderful every day riders, or commuter bikes!!!! Let alone something that probably came to this country as scrap to start with.

A-N-D if you are planning to find this on a student baked bean budget?!?!?!?!?

No mate, just no! You are on a hiding to a LOT of frustration, hassle and nights in, when your mates ask you whether you want to go down the SU bar, 'cos you are either up to your elbows in oil, or bank statements, or both.

Been there, done that got the t-shirt.... mentioned the bike price hikes of the early 90's; I was in 1990, a first year H400 Mech eng undergrad; in need of cheap wheels, to get to and from summer placement, and up to my elbows in bank statements and oil trying to keep a car on the road. I bought a Kawasaki AR125 on HP to get to and from. By the time it was paid for, two years later, the sticker price of the exact same bike in the showroom, was more than I had paid on the monthlies. Meanwhile, I had got too and from every day. The thing had started first kick every time I needed it to. And it had supped very little unleaded or two stroke along the way.. yet with 70mph top end it was as fast as anything else was legally allowed to go in this country.... I'd loaded it with throw overs and sports bag and when inclined a tent, to travel 250 miles for a party, or have a week-end away. I got far more smiles and miles from the thing being on it, riding it, thrashing it, and going places, than I ever had trying to figure out where to get a brake pad retaining plate, or how to afford a new back tyre; and was getting that fun from the thing whilst other mates were faffing in the shed with VF500's or GS750's and stuff they really just couldn't afford to run, even iof they could get bits they needed....

"Pah! Its ownlee a wun-two-fiyve! When ya gonna get a REAL bike!", outside the metrology lecture... "Oh, maybe sometime around the time you manage to finally get an MOT on that XJ550... got your lid, I'll give you a lift if you want?" TENDED to bring that sort if dirisory conversation to an abrupt end....

But that's where it starts... cutting your cloth to suit your means... and your needs.

At Uni... with subsidised rail cards, SU mini-bus trips, and a push bike... DO you actually need ANY motorised personal transport at all? Can you, on a student loan, afford any? and even if you can.. is that worth the money compared to parties? THEN... if tyhe answer is still "Wehwl... like YEAH!"... is the added cost of a big bike... any big bike, let alone, a sporty big bike, let alone an idiocyncratic old and exotic one, in ANY way, cutting cloth?

No1 son has been through this; and turned up with another olf wreck every christmas when the Studen Loan came in, with dreams of looking cool and going fast on a jelly mold CBR or RF6, or whatever... and I have lost count of how many of these wrecks have been left in rented digs gardens or sold for pennies for his train fare home, before he got a licence and got a GPz5oo he STILL struggled to run on student loan, and STILL missed most of the parties for.

Think LONG AND HARD kid... think hard.

If I was at Uni now... I would likely do much the same over; I would buy a 125, a boring one, to get too and from. I'd get my A1 on it for pennies DIY no course required. If I took lessons... it would likely be for a car licence, if I didn't have one, in order to be able to stick "Full Car Licence' on my CV when I was job hunting... even if I couldn't afford a car... at least I was getting licence history, to make the insurance realistic when I could, as well as make CV more impressive to prospectives.

If I was masocistic enough to want to play spanners with bikes... and I was, and still am... I'd likely buy something as a project, with no aspirations to ride, certainly whilst still at school; and do that for when I graduated. as was, I had my old cota trials bike in a shed at my grans farm... I played spanners on that, come the holidays.

Interesting to note, that No1 son wasted all those student loans of scrap he never got to ride; and has, now, at 30 years old, only just passed his car licence, because company wanted to give him a company car... and his promotion prospecs were actually hampered because he wasn't on the approved driver's list, and he couldn't be sent to Milton Keynes or wherever like his rivals in the office!

Like I said... think hard..... big bikes, tend to mean little but big bills not big thrills... what do you really want to achieve? Bikes will still be there in twenty years when you likely can better afford the indulgence of inpracticality as a weekend toy... here and now.... that 'dream' is little more than that, and the reality most likely a lot of shanks ponies, not GP hero fantacies on the public road...

As said, I would vote 'None of the above'... Certainly not a 4oo supersport that was likely scrap when I was at uni!

I'd likely look for a 125, and maybe indulge my fantacies a little with 'maybe' a CBR125; get around; save pennies; gain NCB, get a car licence, get the diploma, and WHEN gaffer offered me a 'free; Audi to plonk on the drive, and a payrise that would let me go get a ZX6R for the weekend, maybe even take it real racing.... that's when I would get the payback for my patience.....

Options here and now are myriad, and theres no good one... so back up to first principles... in Sudent world, with so much 'assisted living' to help you cope without mummy doing the washing and daddy paying the bills... do you REALLY need ANY motorbike at all? and If you must have one... is the 'fun' you'll get for it in any way comensurate to the costs.... remember them parties you'll be missing out on....
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 20:22 - 12 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Barney626 wrote:
I drive a Renaultsport clio 197 so fairly used to being faster than most traffic which makes me think i might get bored of the 250 pretty quick.

There's no comparison even if you're quicker in the car. It's a wholly different dynamic and ownership experience.

dydey90 wrote:
If you don't ruin the 400 it'll go up in value.

Thumbs Up

I'd love one, preferably the green/white/blue '92 model, but quite curious about this one. https://www.gumtree.com/p/kawasaki-motorbikes/zxr-400-1992-l2-low-mileage-kawazaki/1300417532
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Barney626
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PostPosted: 20:52 - 12 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheers again for the replies. Particularly to Teflon-Mike which I'm not gonna quote as it'll probably take up the entire page Laughing (I did read it all though).

Interesting history on the 400s and definitely helps put it all in perspective.

Regarding the whole 'is it worth getting a bike at this stage' argument, for my particular situation it does make sense. Having already got a car and a full car licence I'm not neglecting that aspect. The car runs at 23MPG and I will need motorised transport for the next year to commute to a placement job. In that year alone the fuel saved from using a bike instead of the car will almost pay for itself. I've managed to get myself a wage that will allow me to have money left over each month and I'm reasonably inclined to do work on my own vehicles (Would hope so being an engineering student) so repair bills are usually cheaper than what others end up paying. I'm not really one for parties and most of my money goes towards cars and scuba diving.

With that said, obviously a bike that needs less maintenance is a desirable thing and the 20+ year old 400 vs the Fuel injected 250 it looks like an obvious choice. Just wanted to gauge if any experienced riders perhaps had other views on the topics instead of relying on my gut instinct (Which at this point seems to have been correct).

Getting a 125 instead of the 250 was an alternate plan for me and one I was very much considering. They have numerous benefits that I'm sure you are all well aware of. However, I will be using whatever bike I get to drive almost 3000 miles around europe come september and doing that on a 125 sounded like a bit of a silly idea to me.


The general consensus I'm getting is the 400 is a bad idea, the 250 is better but you guys wouldn't necessarily suggest the ninja 250.

I had looked at CBR250s, they tend to be about the same price and if you ask me are not as pretty as the ninjas so I've kind of removed them off my list. If I'm missing some obvious benefit from them I'm more than happy to reconsider it.
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 23:03 - 12 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you intend to keep the clio.... there is a big chunk of overheads being sunk into keeping that on the road, available to use... that are rather wasted if you dont.

Might be worth mentioning, I had in effect a double~grant when I was at uni; thanks to an expat dad, and US style college trust~fund, which basically paid for my prtro~head indulgences.

Insurance on a car was nowhere near as daft, for me, quarter century ago, and 'the lemon' that was basically a Peugot 1o4 if you have ever seen one, that aught to have had a 2CV engine in it, but instead I'd stuffed in a 14oo OHC twinchoke Renault into.... ever seen a front wheel drive car try and wheelie? Lol! Cost me about the same to insure as the 125.

The 125 was bought after the Lemon, had popped its cylinder liners for the third time in 6months and had to be completely rebuilt.... and working in the toolroom of a plastic moulding company, I used the bike to get to work, and the flycutter on the bridgeport to skim the reggie head.... to run that 'for fun' over the summer.... the compression was rather high by september...... and I let the insurance lamps just before christmas, because it was just too much hassle to keep it on the road...

The 125 was then, my sole means of transport for about 18 months, which is probably the longest period in my entire life, I have relied only on a bike... but didn't have to... I could have kept the car insurance going and tried to be a bit less lead footed....

TWENTY THREE eM~Pee#Gee!!! Shocked

Jeez that would be a bad score from my 4.L v8 range rover!!!!!!!

But actually probably still better than I got from that lemmon thing!!!! When you pressed the gas, you could actually see the juice squirting out the accelerator jets into the maw of the twinchoke!!!!! Scary! FUN... but scary!

There in lies a very BIG ponder point......

As has been said, the quick of a car just does NOT compare when it comes to bikes.

Then, king of the hill was a geniune VW golf 1.8 GTi... mate used to nick his mums quite often, and point to point, the 125... even a restriocted 12.5bhp 125 was quicker off the line, faster twixt bends, and faster round them... rather made all his boasting about "GeeTeeEye" pall a bit, and become rather mute.

Get onbto something even as mundane as a 5 commuter twin, the 'fast' just doesn't compare; and bikes fast is fast you can use, and the tilt in corners, is another dimension....

If you like fast cars?

Dont have a go on a fast bike

REALLY... you will likely NOT find them much fun after!

Whilst on the ecconomics? You already have one, vehicle that's costing an awful lot more than it need to go only moderately quick, pretty infrequently... why would you want another, that will make that seem rather tame?

Sandwhich year, and ideas of everything you can do wit ALL THAT MONEY!!!! Lol.... it wont go anywhere NEAR as far as you expect, believe me....... especially when work mates drag you down the local and expect you to get into the rounds, and the bar prices are highstreet, not SU subsidised 'club' ones.

If the incentive here is that 23mpg cars consumption.... tackle that. there are plenty of plenty more ecconomical, and likely as or faster cars out there... sheech... as hinted, I get better than that from a four effin litre V8 Chelsea tractor! And run the thing on propane, that's half price! AND you would likely choke at my annual insurance premiums!

You will NOT save any money getting a bike, that might, by the books, offer 5o or more mpg, by the time you have paiud the tax and insurance, and start having to pay for the surprisinghly short oil changes and replacement tyres...... let alone clawed back antything towards the DAS course, or hat, or gloves, or leathers.

So bike or car.... and if the car is too expensive to run.... what would be cheaper? what could you afford to run? ~what would you like to run?

Theres many ways to skin a cat, but buying a second vehicle, and trying to kid yourself that it's to 'save money'.. is just kidding yourself...

Touting holiday on a big bike..... well, 125 can do 7, and is as fast as anything else is legally allowed to go... as said, I thought little at 2 years old... and was young dumb and numb.... about jumping on the bike to ride 25o miles to go to a party....... I would be rather less enthusiastic these days I think...

A~N~D, with choice of 125 or 75o to do such a run on.... I would be in no more hurry to leap on the big~gun than the tiddler!!!! And neither is a "give it to me big boy" riding position sports bike!

Ideas of long haul comfort on bikes, big or small, are all rather nebulouse and reletive.. and down to your own threshold.

For a continental tour? I would, even now be looking at the 125, and thinking 7o mpg, and tyres that last years not months, I wouldn't have to get swapped two or three times in a foreign country..... and the luggage, and pondering that the 125 has a topbox, and its as big as the ones I had on my 1ooo, the overthrows would be the same ones I use on the 75o, and the tent just as big...... REALLY it wouldn't make an awful lot of odds which I took, especially if I was traveling slow enough to see the sites....... and cramped between tankbag and tent? 75 wouldn't be that much more comfy, if any.... just more expensive.... so 125? Do the job, just as comfortably, and leave more pennies in the pot along the way to sample local delicacies or get a better B&B....

If two Argentinains can go round the world on Yam YB R's, and my uncle can fly to Russia in garden strimmer with wings... why on earth did Charlie and Ewan insist they needed 12oocc Bavarian bulldozers to get to mongolia? And brake a frame in the desert....

Tiddlers have a lot in their favour for a long haul tour... and comfort is but one consideration, I really, REALLY struggle to see ayone getting any from from something with arse up saddle slot, weight in the wrists clipons, and flashy graphics you cant see under the luggage you'll take!

Oh kay... so we buy a PanEuro for the trip...... and, you might just about have taken the car... but when you get home, for all teh comfort you might have got in the continental... you are not getting the ecconomy on the daily... and you have an irreconsileable compromise..... did you get told in Design 11 that was the whole art of 'engineering' btw, 'compromise'.....

so what, given you will never get the ideal ideal for every, represents the 'best' compromise you can make, and do the numbers add up? Design 1o2, ISTR theres ALWAYS a bottom line, and the biggest maths are the accountants! Not newtonian differentiation....

With a clean sheet of paper... I would seriousely recomend you go over the accounts again, and again..... and compare a lot of alternative scenarios as to what might offer the most area under the graph.....

Its ALL in the compromise you are prepared to make.... the hassle, and the pain, and the frustration... in the ones you refuse to....
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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 00:20 - 13 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

OP's car sounds fine to me, I'd be getting a 125 if running costs were an issue and keeping my Renaultsport 23mpg like a badge of honour. Laughing

Oh and if you buy a 125 that doesnt do far worse mpg than a CBR250 then your doing it all wrong too!
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Barney626
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PostPosted: 00:35 - 13 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teflon-Mike wrote:
If you intend to keep the clio.... there is a big chunk of overheads being sunk into keeping that on the road, available to use... that are rather wasted if you dont.

Might be worth mentioning, I had in effect a double~grant when I was at uni; thanks to an expat dad, and US style college trust~fund, which basically paid for my prtro~head indulgences.

Insurance on a car was nowhere near as daft, for me, quarter century ago, and 'the lemon' that was basically a Peugot 1o4 if you have ever seen one, that aught to have had a 2CV engine in it, but instead I'd stuffed in a 14oo OHC twinchoke Renault into.... ever seen a front wheel drive car try and wheelie? Lol! Cost me about the same to insure as the 125.

The 125 was bought after the Lemon, had popped its cylinder liners for the third time in 6months and had to be completely rebuilt.... and working in the toolroom of a plastic moulding company, I used the bike to get to work, and the flycutter on the bridgeport to skim the reggie head.... to run that 'for fun' over the summer.... the compression was rather high by september...... and I let the insurance lamps just before christmas, because it was just too much hassle to keep it on the road...

The 125 was then, my sole means of transport for about 18 months, which is probably the longest period in my entire life, I have relied only on a bike... but didn't have to... I could have kept the car insurance going and tried to be a bit less lead footed....

TWENTY THREE eM~Pee#Gee!!! Shocked

Jeez that would be a bad score from my 4.L v8 range rover!!!!!!!

But actually probably still better than I got from that lemmon thing!!!! When you pressed the gas, you could actually see the juice squirting out the accelerator jets into the maw of the twinchoke!!!!! Scary! FUN... but scary!

There in lies a very BIG ponder point......

As has been said, the quick of a car just does NOT compare when it comes to bikes.

Then, king of the hill was a geniune VW golf 1.8 GTi... mate used to nick his mums quite often, and point to point, the 125... even a restriocted 12.5bhp 125 was quicker off the line, faster twixt bends, and faster round them... rather made all his boasting about "GeeTeeEye" pall a bit, and become rather mute.

Get onbto something even as mundane as a 5 commuter twin, the 'fast' just doesn't compare; and bikes fast is fast you can use, and the tilt in corners, is another dimension....

If you like fast cars?

Dont have a go on a fast bike

REALLY... you will likely NOT find them much fun after!

Whilst on the ecconomics? You already have one, vehicle that's costing an awful lot more than it need to go only moderately quick, pretty infrequently... why would you want another, that will make that seem rather tame?

Sandwhich year, and ideas of everything you can do wit ALL THAT MONEY!!!! Lol.... it wont go anywhere NEAR as far as you expect, believe me....... especially when work mates drag you down the local and expect you to get into the rounds, and the bar prices are highstreet, not SU subsidised 'club' ones.

If the incentive here is that 23mpg cars consumption.... tackle that. there are plenty of plenty more ecconomical, and likely as or faster cars out there... sheech... as hinted, I get better than that from a four effin litre V8 Chelsea tractor! And run the thing on propane, that's half price! AND you would likely choke at my annual insurance premiums!

You will NOT save any money getting a bike, that might, by the books, offer 5o or more mpg, by the time you have paiud the tax and insurance, and start having to pay for the surprisinghly short oil changes and replacement tyres...... let alone clawed back antything towards the DAS course, or hat, or gloves, or leathers.

So bike or car.... and if the car is too expensive to run.... what would be cheaper? what could you afford to run? ~what would you like to run?

Theres many ways to skin a cat, but buying a second vehicle, and trying to kid yourself that it's to 'save money'.. is just kidding yourself...

Touting holiday on a big bike..... well, 125 can do 7, and is as fast as anything else is legally allowed to go... as said, I thought little at 2 years old... and was young dumb and numb.... about jumping on the bike to ride 25o miles to go to a party....... I would be rather less enthusiastic these days I think...

A~N~D, with choice of 125 or 75o to do such a run on.... I would be in no more hurry to leap on the big~gun than the tiddler!!!! And neither is a "give it to me big boy" riding position sports bike!

Ideas of long haul comfort on bikes, big or small, are all rather nebulouse and reletive.. and down to your own threshold.

For a continental tour? I would, even now be looking at the 125, and thinking 7o mpg, and tyres that last years not months, I wouldn't have to get swapped two or three times in a foreign country..... and the luggage, and pondering that the 125 has a topbox, and its as big as the ones I had on my 1ooo, the overthrows would be the same ones I use on the 75o, and the tent just as big...... REALLY it wouldn't make an awful lot of odds which I took, especially if I was traveling slow enough to see the sites....... and cramped between tankbag and tent? 75 wouldn't be that much more comfy, if any.... just more expensive.... so 125? Do the job, just as comfortably, and leave more pennies in the pot along the way to sample local delicacies or get a better B&B....

If two Argentinains can go round the world on Yam YB R's, and my uncle can fly to Russia in garden strimmer with wings... why on earth did Charlie and Ewan insist they needed 12oocc Bavarian bulldozers to get to mongolia? And brake a frame in the desert....

Tiddlers have a lot in their favour for a long haul tour... and comfort is but one consideration, I really, REALLY struggle to see ayone getting any from from something with arse up saddle slot, weight in the wrists clipons, and flashy graphics you cant see under the luggage you'll take!

Oh kay... so we buy a PanEuro for the trip...... and, you might just about have taken the car... but when you get home, for all teh comfort you might have got in the continental... you are not getting the ecconomy on the daily... and you have an irreconsileable compromise..... did you get told in Design 11 that was the whole art of 'engineering' btw, 'compromise'.....

so what, given you will never get the ideal ideal for every, represents the 'best' compromise you can make, and do the numbers add up? Design 1o2, ISTR theres ALWAYS a bottom line, and the biggest maths are the accountants! Not newtonian differentiation....

With a clean sheet of paper... I would seriousely recomend you go over the accounts again, and again..... and compare a lot of alternative scenarios as to what might offer the most area under the graph.....

Its ALL in the compromise you are prepared to make.... the hassle, and the pain, and the frustration... in the ones you refuse to....


Obviously the financially logical thing to do is sell everything, get a slow as shit fiesta and just use that until it no longer runs. But quite frankly where is the fun in that?

23MPG is the price you pay for a 2L NA 4 cylinder engine on a car that does 0-60 in less than 6.7 seconds. Best bit is the car is only worth about £3000 and still comes with modern specs like aircon and cruise control. I've put too much work into this car to let it go so soon (Only had it for less than a year) and I know I would regret selling for the rest of my life because I know I can afford to keep it if I'm smart about it. For anyone who has had a chance to drive a 197 in anger, I'd expect they know what I'm on about.

I've been as detailed as I can be on budgeting including repairs/tyres/oil and taking into account I won't be riding it in winter. Even with all that taken into account, it still almost breaks even for itself. That's for the bike, a years insurance/tax and a full set of gear.

Perhaps once the clio has had it's use my next car will be more sensible and with the money saved get a nicer bike. But until then I don't want to take the plunge, sell the car and get a bike only to find I actually enjoyed the car more.

There are a lot of factors I won't be discussing here on why getting a bike at the same time as the car makes sense for me.

Going back to the original question, short of it being slow compared to all your 600s / litre bikes, is there anything wrong with the ninja 250? I'm still yet to see any real complaints about it apart from "aw it isnt as fast as my 5L hyperbike so dont get it"

Considering it looks like the 600s are not gonna work out because of insurance and any modern 300s are out of price range, that just leaves the 250/125 categories right?
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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Joined: 09 Oct 2015
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PostPosted: 00:58 - 13 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Barney626 wrote:
is there anything wrong with the ninja 250? I'm still yet to see any real complaints about it apart from "aw it isnt as fast as my Renaultsport Clio 197 so dont get it."

FTFY.
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha
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PostPosted: 06:54 - 13 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teflon-Mike wrote:
Then, king of the hill was a geniune VW golf 1.8 GTi... mate used to nick his mums quite often, and point to point, the 125... even a restriocted 12.5bhp 125 was quicker off the line, faster twixt bends, and faster round them... rather made all his boasting about "GeeTeeEye" pall a bit, and become rather mute.



Yeah not having that, Mike. I've yet to find a road - rural, urban or unmade - that I couldn't absolutely destroy any 4t 125 on, even in my 15 year old 1.8 ford focus. Granted, a 125 might *feel* faster to someone who's never ridden a bike before - and yes, up to 30mph a 4t 125 will beat me. But after that I'll annihilate them, at least on any and every road that I can think of in a 50 mile radius of my place. I can almost literally throw a car into, through and out of any corner w/ traction breaking all the way, tyres screeching and - if needs be - braking mid corner. I don't need to care about grit on the road, I don't have to take account of any micro-climate that might be lurking, nor worry about the possibility of potholes, dead hedgehogs or a slick of cow shit. I know the car will shrug it off or simply straddle it. Meanwhile on a bike, I'd be way less gung-ho, but even if I wasn't, I'd be a spec in my mirrors after 30 seconds.

Riding a bike faster than a half decent driver can heft a modest car on an average stretch of rural road is way more difficult than a lot of people imagine. If a driver has anything about them at all, and decides to play a bit rough, the rider will usually struggle to banish it from the bike's mirrors - unless the bends are visibly linked, or there's a few long straights. But there's no honour in that, really.
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha
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PostPosted: 06:58 - 13 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Barney626 wrote:
Getting a 125 instead of the 250 was an alternate plan for me and one I was very much considering. They have numerous benefits that I'm sure you are all well aware of.


Erm - remind me again. Just to be clear - we're talking of the advantages of a 250 4t over a 125?
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Mobylette Type 50 ---> Raleigh Grifter ---> Neval Minsk 125
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha
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PostPosted: 07:11 - 13 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
Barney626 wrote:
is there anything wrong with the ninja 250? I'm still yet to see any real complaints about it apart from "aw it isnt as fast as my Renaultsport Clio 197 so dont get it."

FTFY.


Yes - very hard to argue with that. And I'm not entirely sure the clio wouldn't be more fun than a 4t 250 single.

At any rate, I'm pretty sure I'd be a lot faster in the clio around cadwell than I would be on a 250 ninja. And if I was coming to bikes for the first time, it'd be a lot of time and effort before I came anywhere near close to how nippy I'd be in something like a 197.
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