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OxideRides
Derestricted Danger



Joined: 27 Jun 2018
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PostPosted: 00:36 - 27 Jun 2018    Post subject: New rider, Mental insurance Reply with quote
Hi folks. I've just recently moved to Glasgow and decided to ditch the car and keep the bike that I've been riding for a few months. My A2 test is booked for the end of next month, so soon I'll be able to upgrade to a bigger bike.

The only problem with this is the crazy insurance...

My 125 duke is going to cost me about a grand a year third party!! (Used to cost me £500 where I previously lived).
That's twice as much as my car insurance on a 1.6l was when I first passed my driving licence...

I did a check to see if it'll go down if I passed my test, but it didn't make a dent.

So I decided to check the insurance cost on a bigger bike, because I've read that sometimes they are cheaper to insure... Nope! Three grand for a second hand mt03, and about the same for cb500.

Not sure what they expect us to do. The only way to reduce costs is by getting a NCB, parking in a brick garage or moving to a rural location, none of which is feasible. I've also tried to see if adding tags, chains and trackers would do anything. It made no difference whether I put in the cheapest Oxford lock or the most expensive almax chain. Tagging also made no difference.

It puts me off that insurers expect me to pay absurd amounts..

Rant over. For now lol.
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adam277
Spanner Monkey



Joined: 29 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: 01:01 - 27 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
I live in Essex, no garage and I am 26.
I do have 2 years NCB though

£80 for the year for a cb500.
I think I could of got it to 70 if I shopped around more but I done it on my phone.
Your insurance should not be that high.

Hopefully someone in the area will give advice but maybe there is another factor as to why its so high?
I had a 1150cc bike as my first full size motorbike and that was only £350 for the year when I was like 21/22.
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Bikes: Previous Bikes: Piaggio x8 125: 2012/2013, YBR 125: 2013/2013 BMW R1150GS 2013/2017, Honda CBR600RR 2017/2017, Honda CB500 2018/2018, Suzuiki Address 110cc 2019/2020, BMW R1200GS 2021-2023
Current Bike: Honda CBF 125: current
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OxideRides
Derestricted Danger



Joined: 27 Jun 2018
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PostPosted: 03:10 - 27 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
It's crazy. I ran through a bunch of different bikes to see what quotes I get. Some of them are absurd.

Yamaha
mt03 - insurance group: 8 - Quote: 4,048
mt07 - insurance group: 11 - Quote: 7,445
yzf r3 - Insurance Group 8 - Quote: an odd one, lexham £1475, the rest are 8,270+

Kawasaki
ninja 250sl - group 8 - insurance: again, good quote from lexham at 1,465. Rest were 7,800+
ninja 300 - group 9 insurance: 1,510 from lexham, 7,200+ otherwise
z300 - Group 8 - Insurance 2,829
er 6n - Group 10 - Insurance 7,250

Honda
cb300r - 6 - 2,856
cbf500 - 9 - 5,481

Suzuki
gxs 250r - 8 - 1,510 from lexham. The rest were 5,500+
sv650 (s) 9 - 7,445

KTM
390 duke - 3,796

BMW
g310r- 10 - 4,362

I gave up after that. It seems almost totally random, unless I go for a 250cc or less.
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Rogerborg
nimbA



Joined: 26 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: 07:53 - 27 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
That is insane. There isn't even a big problem with bike theft in Glasgow. I've heard of a van-full being harvested in the East End but it's nowhere near as bad as Edinburgh.

Are there any high risk factors like criminal convictions, or are you a stuntman lion-tamer?

Are you checking for cover other than third party? It's often more expensive than TPF&T or even FC.

If you are going third party, or have no intention of making any other form of claim, I'd note that if the bike's registered address and your driving licence address match up with the bike's insured address then it's very unlikely to become an issue whether that address is your actual permanent domicile. Do you know anyone in ruralshire who can collect some post for you?

Likewise, how is the insurer going to know if you have a garage or not?
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arry
Super Spammer



Joined: 03 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: 08:56 - 27 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
adam277 wrote:
I live in Essex, no garage and I am 26.
I do have 2 years NCB though


So nothing like the OP then.

adam277 wrote:

Your insurance should not be that high.


Based on what given your experience isn't relevant to the OP?


adam277 wrote:

Hopefully someone in the area will give advice but maybe there is another factor as to why its so high?
I had a 1150cc bike as my first full size motorbike and that was only £350 for the year when I was like 21/22.


3-4 years ago we didn't have epidemic levels of bike theft and further associated crime in major cities, one of which the OP happens to live within.

I have an RM postcode and had to drop to SDP last year to get a reasonable quote on my bare crazy Supermoto in bright steal me steal me orange. Reason? Including commuting means I'm heading West 20 miles and they don't like that prospect one bit. I don't blame them - I don't like that prospect!

2 years ago it was sub 200 quid including class one business use.

The times they are a changing.
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arry
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Joined: 03 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: 09:02 - 27 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
That is insane. There isn't even a big problem with bike theft in Glasgow.


Unlikely to matter, unfortunately Roger. It's happened in Bristol, it's happened in Birmingham, it's happened in Edinburgh, so all the evidence points that it'll happen in Glasgow sooner or later. Insurers have already started taking action - they'll broad brush it, they always do.
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Rogerborg
nimbA



Joined: 26 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: 09:30 - 27 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
arry wrote:
Including commuting means I'm heading West 20 miles and they don't like that prospect one bit.

I am rather surprised that the cartel isn't asking where bikes are being kept during the day, since it seems that's where they're more likely to be stolen now.

This is relevant to my interests as I'm currently running quotes for my fleet which are garaged overnight in Suburbanshire (still a G postcode) but left parked up in Glasgow toon with no security declared and very little being used as I've become complacent.

Quotes are coming in around £65 per bike for TFP&T, which includes commuting. I suspect that I'm at least as big a risk as OP, so perhaps the cartel's algorithm isn't as bigly clever as all that.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
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OxideRides
Derestricted Danger



Joined: 27 Jun 2018
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PostPosted: 09:53 - 27 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
That is insane. There isn't even a big problem with bike theft in Glasgow. I've heard of a van-full being harvested in the East End but it's nowhere near as bad as Edinburgh.

Are there any high risk factors like criminal convictions, or are you a stuntman lion-tamer?

Are you checking for cover other than third party? It's often more expensive than TPF&T or even FC.

If you are going third party, or have no intention of making any other form of claim, I'd note that if the bike's registered address and your driving licence address match up with the bike's insured address then it's very unlikely to become an issue whether that address is your actual permanent domicile. Do you know anyone in ruralshire who can collect some post for you?

Likewise, how is the insurer going to know if you have a garage or not?


I forgot to mention, the quote test on the a2 bikes were fully comp prices, but still... a little OTT.
Clean record, no claims and - unless they consider a product designer to be a danger on the road - no crazy occupation.
Unfortunately know no one in the area and previous home isn't anywhere close so that I could keep that address.

I worry about the garage in case it does happen to get nicked outside my house in the quiet area I live in, then they won't pay out. Not too bothered with my baby duke, but not sure if i'd want to risk that with a bigger (likely newer) bike.
I guess the answer is possibly to pick up something dirt cheap and not be worried about what happens to it.

The postcode problem is so bad that a different house in glasgow I declined had an area code that lumped it in with one of the dodgier areas, despite it being listed as blue on SIMD. It increased my original duke's quote by £600!
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arry
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Joined: 03 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: 09:54 - 27 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:

I am rather surprised that the cartel isn't asking where bikes are being kept during the day, since it seems that's where they're more likely to be stolen now.


The answer to that lies in in the question 'who controls the distribution'. If an insurer wants to include a new question, it has to do so via Compare The Market, Confused and the like. They get paid regardless remember, so there's not a lot in it for them.

I had that issue with a large Panel Quotation provider a few years back. Despite my company being their biggest customer, they refused to action a change to the specification structure so that I could implement the controls I needed - unless of course I provided them a business case which made financial sense for them.

Aggregators are the devil.
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stephen_o
Spanner Monkey



Joined: 02 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: 10:15 - 27 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
And there it is, it goes full circle from insurance companies issuing brokers with rate cards and underwriting criteria 20 years ago then telling smaller brokers - your too small we only want bigger brokers as introducers to now being controlled by the marketing cartel of go compare, money supermarket etc who have along with the actions of the insurance companies driven the customers away from brokers and now control the supply of the customers.
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Rogerborg
nimbA



Joined: 26 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: 10:43 - 27 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Damn. Sorry, it sounds like you'll have to ride junkers for a couple of years at least to build up some no claims history. I had no idea it had got that bad for newer riders - bikes were historically an alternative to swingeing car insurance. Sad
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
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Freddyfruitba...
World Chat Champion



Joined: 20 May 2016
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PostPosted: 11:15 - 27 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
arry wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:
That is insane. There isn't even a big problem with bike theft in Glasgow.
Unlikely to matter, unfortunately Roger. It's happened in Bristol, it's happened in Birmingham, it's happened in Edinburgh, so all the evidence points that it'll happen in Glasgow sooner or later. Insurers have already started taking action - they'll broad brush it, they always do.

If it's just all about bike theft though, why isn't it possible to buy a TPO policy for peanuts then? I mean, some of the OP's quotes exceed the value of the insured vehicle.
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Rogerborg
nimbA



Joined: 26 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: 11:31 - 27 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Freddyfruitbat wrote:
If it's just all about bike theft though, why isn't it possible to buy a TPO policy for peanuts then? I mean, some of the OP's quotes exceed the value of the insured vehicle.

On that, I hope is ticking the "no pillion" box.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
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OxideRides
Derestricted Danger



Joined: 27 Jun 2018
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PostPosted: 11:47 - 27 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
Freddyfruitbat wrote:
If it's just all about bike theft though, why isn't it possible to buy a TPO policy for peanuts then? I mean, some of the OP's quotes exceed the value of the insured vehicle.

On that, I hope is ticking the "no pillion" box.


Yep, no need for pillion insurance. That's one thing I didn't test to see how much it would add.

Otherwise I can't seem to get a massive reduction when changing the type of security devices. Zero difference between a great big almax chain and a lightweight, cheap Oxford chain lock.
Did manage to knock off £20 on the duke quote if I installed a datatag.... Not entirely sure that's worth it xD.

TPO Vs TPFT was the biggest difference. £542 TPO Vs £767 TPFT.
Changing amount of miles made barely any difference.
SDPC is 767 Vs SDP 699.
On road is 767, garaged is £700.
And 676 for full license vs provisional... Hmm. Maybe I'll wait until the end of the month.
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Rogerborg
nimbA



Joined: 26 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: 12:45 - 27 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Are you doing quotes without listing any security? I've had a quote go up by 1/3rd when adding security.

Also, the usual caveats to use Mr Fakename 3 doors down in fresh porn-browsing sessions so that you don't trigger any "This guy can't get cover, hammer him" algorithms.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
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stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 12:55 - 27 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
OxideRides wrote:
- unless they consider a product designer to be a danger on the road - no crazy occupation.


Try this one. Swap it to something which still describes your job but in a much more general sense like "office worker" or "draughtsman" or "computer technician".

Doesn't GDPR give you the right to be told what data an algorithm uses to make a financial decision? I wonder if you have a spurious flag against you for a claim/conviction?
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I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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Freddyfruitba...
World Chat Champion



Joined: 20 May 2016
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PostPosted: 13:01 - 27 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
OxideRides wrote:
I can't seem to get a massive reduction when changing the type of security devices.

Have you tried changing other variables (using a dummy account) just to try to nail down what it is that's causing the huge premiums?

Like, separately changing your age, job, years of biking experience, address. Presumably if you metamorphose into a 55-year-old bank clerk on a 100cc bike garaged in a rural highland village you'll be quoted beans - it's a case of finding out what the main trigger is for you.

Rogerborg wrote:
use Mr Fakename 3 doors down in fresh porn-browsing sessions so that you don't trigger any "This guy can't get cover, hammer him" algorithms.

Does anyone know if this stuff actually happens (arry?) - not that I'd be surprised if it did. But if so, AFAIK you don't shield your IP address from internet sites by using browser incognito mode etc, you'd need to use a proxy server?
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ThePurpleWind
L Plate Warrior



Joined: 23 Jun 2018
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PostPosted: 15:03 - 27 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
That depends entirely on whether it's based on browser cookies or IP address.
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arry
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Joined: 03 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: 15:32 - 27 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Freddyfruitbat wrote:

If it's just all about bike theft though, why isn't it possible to buy a TPO policy for peanuts then? I mean, some of the OP's quotes exceed the value of the insured vehicle.


Cos TPO doesn't make an insurer money - it's the bit high loss ratios cling to. Accidental Damage much less so. It also, traditionally, has a marker of 'this guy's a cheap weedge out for cheap cover' about it, and all that the stereotype entails.

Theoretically it IS possible to provide a cheap TPO option no doubt, but where's the fun in that?

Further point for balance - if your motor is on the MID, you is so totes liable bruv. Maybe not legitimately agreed by a court of law, but the fees alone to fight such an attempt to pin liability on you are talking telephone numbers. Bare meat spin brother, I tell you. Not worth aggy, move capital to another class of business that's easier. Job jobbed.
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Kentol750
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Joined: 24 May 2016
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PostPosted: 15:35 - 27 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Also, as well as the above, are you asking for quotes with an actual reg no.? That has been known to make a difference. Real bike, owned for x months and remember full licence.
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arry
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PostPosted: 15:37 - 27 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Freddyfruitbat wrote:

Does anyone know if this stuff actually happens (arry?) - not that I'd be surprised if it did. But if so, AFAIK you don't shield your IP address from internet sites by using browser incognito mode etc, you'd need to use a proxy server?


Honestly don't know mate. Nothing I sell is low level volume enough for that, and anywhere I've worked that is volume wasn't sophisticated enough to make use of marketing in such a way. Besides, I've never written a lot of direct business, so I've never had the need to direct market to those customers and how inclined they'd be to sneaky advertising campaigns on their facebook feed.

I do, however, know that some direct marketers have now got so good at it that they SEO optimise all sorts of things to achieve best results. Consumers really are a google generation and we wonder why local decent brokers and the like die out.
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WmY
Renault 5 Driver



Joined: 21 May 2018
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PostPosted: 21:51 - 27 Jun 2018    Post subject: Re: New rider, Mental insurance Reply with quote
OxideRides wrote:
the crazy insurance...


Does the old-fashioned insurance agency/broker shop still exist?
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The_west
Borekit Bruiser



Joined: 01 May 2018
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PostPosted: 09:32 - 28 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
That's absolutely nuts. Im about to take mod2, so "new" rider, I've held a car license for a long time but had it revoked years ago, accumulated points. All declared, my quote for my dr650 was £708 fully comp for year..?
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vp1977uk
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Joined: 19 Dec 2017
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PostPosted: 09:47 - 28 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Do a quote on something like a Royal Enfield. Might be a lot cheaper.
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Rogerborg
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Joined: 26 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: 09:58 - 28 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Undoubtedly, but OP is under 24, so let's not give up all hope just yet.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
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