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Removing broken hex key from allen bolt

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Sweaty_Doughnut
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PostPosted: 16:12 - 15 Jul 2018    Post subject: Removing broken hex key from allen bolt Reply with quote

Hi guys,

I was trying to open the disc caliper pin to replace the pads. However, the bolt was stuck so I applied a bit of pressure and the hex key broke inside it.

Now I have two problems, to remove the broken allen key and unscrew the pin. I used centre punch and tried to drill the allen key bit but the steel is too strong for the drill. I have attached the picture for reference. The garage is asking £60 pounds to remove it, but I consider this to be high as I can buy a new caliper for £80. Does anyone have experience with this?
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WD Forte
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PostPosted: 16:57 - 15 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Use best quality (carbide etc)drill bits at the correct speed for the size
Poundshop drill bits running dry at high speed will do SFA

Establish centre with centre punch then a 3mm pilot
with cutting/cooling fluid
IF you can dismantle the sliding caliper in situ, you could drill the head off the bolt then slip it off the screw and use stilsons to remove the rest.
If you cant it gets trickier.
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Sweaty_Doughnut
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PostPosted: 17:02 - 15 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

WD Forte wrote:
Use better quality (carbide etc)drill bits?
etablish centre with centre punch then a 3mm pilot
with cutting/cooling fluid
IF you can dismantle the sliding caliper in situ, you could drill the head off the bolt then slip it off the screw and use stilsons to remove the rest.
If you cant it gets trickier.


Hmm, but the allen bolt is within the calipper so it doesn't have the head outside. If this was the case I would cut a cross with dremmel and try to use a screw driver. I was thinking to buy a carbide dremmel bit to see if it will go through.
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WD Forte
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PostPosted: 17:13 - 15 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I saw the partial pic of the caliper and did say 'IF'
Your pic doesn't give enough context

£60 garage Vs £80 for a new one eh?
fine, just take this one off and buy another one then
Oh wait..........
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 17:14 - 15 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fuck that shit. For £80 just buy a new one. (Is £80 new, or a second hand price?)

Then sell your old one for £40 to someone that can easily remove it (profit?).
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Last edited by Wafer_Thin_Ham on 17:15 - 15 Jul 2018; edited 1 time in total
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Sweaty_Doughnut
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PostPosted: 17:14 - 15 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

WD Forte wrote:
I saw the partial pic of the caliper and did say 'IF'
Your pic doesn't give enough context

£60 garage Vs £80 for a new one eh?
fine, just take this one off and buy another one then
Oh wait..........


Sorry, I thought all brake calippers are the same.
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Sweaty_Doughnut
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PostPosted: 17:15 - 15 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wafer_Thin_Ham wrote:
Fuck that shit. For £80 just buy a new one. (Is £80 new, or a second hand price?)


Brand new
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 17:15 - 15 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sweaty_Doughnut wrote:
Wafer_Thin_Ham wrote:
Fuck that shit. For £80 just buy a new one. (Is £80 new, or a second hand price?)


Brand new


Buy brand new one, sell old fucked one on ebay for 10 ponds (profit?).
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Sweaty_Doughnut
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PostPosted: 17:17 - 15 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

[/quote] Buy brand new one, sell old fucked one on ebay for 10 ponds (profit?).[/quote]

I think I might go for that solution. I wanted to hear opinions here and maybe if someone can say their opinion on using carbide on dremmel
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 17:19 - 15 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sweaty_Doughnut wrote:
Buy brand new one, sell old fucked one on ebay for 10 ponds (profit?).[/quote]

I think I might go for that solution. I wanted to hear opinions here and maybe if someone can say their opinion on using carbide on dremmel[/quote]

My opinion would be that for £80 I couldn't be arsed dicking around with carbide drills, possibly ballsing it up, then spending £80 anyway.
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ThatDippyTwat
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PostPosted: 18:03 - 15 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm cheap as fuck, but without a shop and a decent drill press, I wouldn't be fucking around with it. Whip it off, put new one on.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 18:13 - 15 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

£80 for a new calliper? Linky please?
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Sweaty_Doughnut
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PostPosted: 18:24 - 15 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
£80 for a new calliper? Linky please?


It's a Suzuki Address 110 scooter hence the price Smile
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Dave....
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PostPosted: 20:17 - 15 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

A masonry drill will drill hardened steel. Slow speed and keep putting oil on it.
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 20:17 - 15 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Find someone with a welder, tape up the outside of the welding rod, set it for about 40 amps and dump the rod directly end-first on the top of the broken hex key until it shorts. It'll be stuck to the key and you should be able to wiggle it out. If it breaks off choose a new rod and keep doing it with increased amps every time. Sooner or later it'll come out.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 20:49 - 15 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder if you could use a punch at a slight angle to try and drive the key clockwise and loosen its grip.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 20:58 - 15 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

So that's the pad pin?

If it's the part I think it is, you could hacksaw a section out of the opposite end of the pin to the threads and remove the end bit and the pads. Then bend the remaining end of the pin over into an L-shape and wind it out into the centre of the calliper.

You'll need to replace that pad pin anyway.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 21:19 - 15 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good quality cobalt drill with plenty of cutting fluid.......

But once you have bought a cobalt drill, then fucked it because you had the drill running at 3000rpm and then bought another cobalt drill and fucked it because.................

Buy the new caliper. Thumbs Up
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 21:29 - 15 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete. wrote:
dump the rod directly end-first on the top of the broken hex key until it shorts. It'll be stuck to the key and you should be able to wiggle it out.

But then he'll still have a stuck pin to remove. If he's going in with a welder anyway, would he be as well just welding an Allan key directly onto the head in order to extract it?
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 22:33 - 15 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
I wonder if you could use a punch at a slight angle to try and drive the key clockwise and loosen its grip.


Probably, now that I've looked at the attached pic.

The main failure here is the crappy quality allen key. FI you can get that out, a decent tool should remove the pin. Otherwise Stinkwheel's suggestion would seem sound.
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Sweaty_Doughnut
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PostPosted: 22:43 - 15 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
So that's the pad pin?

If it's the part I think it is, you could hacksaw a section out of the opposite end of the pin to the threads and remove the end bit and the pads. Then bend the remaining end of the pin over into an L-shape and wind it out into the centre of the calliper.

You'll need to replace that pad pin anyway.


I tried to grab the pin from inside where are the pads but without success. Maybe if I do as you say, cut the pin, take the pads out and maybe drill the part of it to make it squared, I would get a better grip. Welding seems to be the best option so far but I need to see how much they would charge. If I have to leave the bike, pay public transport for a few days, the new calipper seems to be the best option.
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Sweaty_Doughnut
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PostPosted: 22:48 - 15 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teflon-Mike wrote:
You shouldn't eff about with brakes; when you are trying not to hit a SMIDSY they are the last thing you dont want to do something daft, like NOT work......

If me... I would start by pulling the caliper off. Completely. This would mean that whatever went back on the end of the hose, after, I'd need to carefully flush through the brake fluid and bleed out any air, at the very least.

Would also beg I bought new washers for the hose; and give me opportunity to inspect the state of the old hose, and for the cost and hassle of chasing the right sized crushg washers, likely buying a new probably braided hose for £10-£15 or so that came with them.

THEN, I could have a look at the caliper....

You were trying to change brake pads... well, there's £10-£15 straight away.... and no good fitting nice new pads to a manky old caliper that wont budge them against the disc none too well.... and you have already discovered a seized pad-pin.... so what is the rest of the caliper like.

Worth noting, hydraulic brakes on little bikes are a pain.. actually a pain on any bike, but still. They are self adjusting, until the brake pad wears out; this means that unlike drums of old, no-one thinks to look at them until pads start grating on the disc.. and they DO suffer corrosion, and get sticky....

ALSO worth noting, MOST brake failures occur on disc brake systems soon after brake pad change. Happens like this; numpty undoes screws, drops out old pads, and then has trouble squeezing new, thicker, pads into the gap where worn, thin' ones used to fit.... the piston that pushes the pads, has, for however long been pushed out of its cylinder, taking up the 'wear' on the pad; it needs to be pushed back into the cylinder... BUT... its been out in the elements, worse, its been next to pads that have turned to dust as they wear out, where that dust will get damp and stick to the piston, and with water make a rather corrosive mixture to RUST the piston.....

NOW; numpty gets big lever or a G-Clamp or special one from Halfrauds, and forces piston back into its cylinder... pads now go in the gap made... and they 'think' all is good. Often though its NOT. They push all the crud that has collected as old pads wear back into the piston rebate with the piston. Piston, probably rusty and pitted and that crud now cut up or chew the seal that's supposed to hold the hydraulic fluid in, and or just lift it away from piston so it doesn't seal, or let the piston move properly, often making the brake 'bind' not returning when brakes released.... and pretty soon 'something' gives, and the brakes stop working....

SO, doing the job properly... you very carefully examine the brake piston, make sure that its NOT rusty or pitted, or dirty; you clean the piston rebate, and make sure there is no crud clocking the piston area, and THEN, if all good, you press the piston back 'home' to squeeze new pads in.

If NOT... you have to over-haul the caliper, and replace pistons and seals, and possibly the pad pins and anti-rattle clips and likely the hydraulic bleed nipple.

NOW.. a second hand caliper can look good value... but may not be any 'better' than what you had... and personally, I would recondition a 2nd hand caliper before fitting to bike, as a matter of course..... This can make a brand new caliper look quite reasonable price.

BACK to your stubborn screw and broken Allen key...

You have identified ONE problem.... that screw is probably siezed... so whats the rest of the caliper like... are you likely to be able to re-use it even if you get that pin out? And replace it... and if you do... what state the piston and seals and bleed nipple?

When you have done this job 'properly'; will you have saved anything trying to get that pin out, and replacing that pin, and probably replacing piston and seal and nipple, and anti-rattle clips?

Assuming you might... and/or that salvaging old caliper is the only or better choice than genuinely buying brand new.....

I would look at how much space there was between the pads to get a pair of mole grips or pliers onto the pad-pin and try turning from the inside.

I might use a grinder or saw to get the old brake pads off the pin and make a bit more space to grip from the back.

I would be sangine, about drilling out the Allen key..... that is tool hard steel (or should be!), it will be as hard as ordinary drill bits, hence advice to use a cobalt bit to try drilling it, or you are as likely to have the allen key wearing out drill bit rather than other way around... and there's the big risk of the drill slipping,. and chewing into the MUCH softer aluminium of the caliper casting, that around the pad-pin is threaded, and you have a stepped hole, if you go through, where you could be drilling into casting beneath, etc. Its really a job to be done with a flat-bottom drill on a pillar drill in a machine shop, not a hack-and-wrecker hand drill on the drive or in the shed! Probably wouldn't stop me... but risk is wreckling the caliper, and needing a new-one again.

Better to try and get it out from the other side if possible... and then, back to the greater scheme of stuff, and whether IF you could salvage, you still have to buy a new pad-pin, you probably still have to recondition the caliper, and new seals, new piston, new bleed nipple, new hose seals and or new hose, new fluid, and and and... the pin is only a small part of the big picture......

As has been asked, is replacement caliper new or used? How much is a new caliper? How much is the job, including proper overhaul, with fluid and new piston/seals/nipple going to cost if you salvage your caliper, or if you have to buy 2nd hand one?

£60, for a paid mechanic? That's perhaps two hours of labour; IF they do the job more properly, taking the caliper off, putting it in a pillar drill, replacing on bike, fitting pads, new pad-pin, flushing and bleeding the fluid... that's probably not unreasonable... and it IS cheaper than replacement caliper.... and its some-one elses problem.... Worry is that they DONT do it propper, and do it on the bike with a hack-and-wrecker..... and the risk is any and all of theose faced by DIYer.... where it's still not a complete rip off, likely still take a good couple of hours of work-shop time.... but either which way.... is is done well?

Back to the top, and IF you have any sense, you DO NOT eff about with brakes.

Its all about risk mitigation and risk management, and ultimately YOUR call.

But from your opening post comments; if its £60 for a genuine brand new unused caliper; add brake pads add brake hose, add seals add fluid... that WOULD seem to my mind the most cost effective, least risk way about the matter.... how much not impaling your pride and joy into the door of SMIDY man?


The calipper is £80 brand new with all bits,including the pads. This would be a good learning though if I can manage to get it off. The mechanic would most likely cost more if it was going to do the bleeding.
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recman
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PostPosted: 08:10 - 16 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
I wonder if you could use a punch at a slight angle to try and drive the key clockwise and loosen its grip.


This would be my first port of call.
The impact shocks may even affect the tight pin too.
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fatjames
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PostPosted: 11:30 - 16 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Almost looks like there is enough socket left to try again with another hex key? Plenty of plus gas for a few hours if there is.

In any case, try again before spending £80.
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