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Pjay
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PostPosted: 16:00 - 21 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
Pjay wrote:

Over here in the civilised world


Laughing

That's how you've been taught to see these things. Makes 'us' feel better than 'them'.

The Civilised World


I'm not sure what Britain has to do with those lynchings, everyone knows Americans are not civilised.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 16:45 - 21 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:


How can such a large, diverse group from a huge continent be so stagnant over such a large period of time?

Most of the writing on the subject blames colonisation like MCN says above, but what about those thousands of years before where there was minimal influence in Africa?


We had the advantage of being able to learn from Greek and Roman civilisations, who were in to questioning the nature of things.
They had the advantage of being on the Mediterranean Sea, making trade and the exchange of ideas easier.
Continental Africa is vast and communication was far more difficult for them.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 02:15 - 22 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:

I'm not sure what Britain has to do with those lynchings, everyone knows Americans are not civilised.


So you were saying Britain alone is 'the civilised world', not the west in general which is what most people mean when they talk about this? Well, that's a first. Still absurd anyway.
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arry
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PostPosted: 08:12 - 22 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
Pjay wrote:

I'm not sure what Britain has to do with those lynchings, everyone knows Americans are not civilised.


So you were saying Britain alone is 'the civilised world', not the west in general which is what most people mean when they talk about this? Well, that's a first. Still absurd anyway.



verb
past tense: civilised; past participle: civilised
bring (a place or people) to a stage of social development considered to be more advanced.
"a civilized society".

Is your point that the West somehow isn't more advanced in its social development?
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 09:46 - 22 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
Pjay wrote:

I'm not sure what Britain has to do with those lynchings, everyone knows Americans are not civilised.


So you were saying Britain alone is 'the civilised world', not the west in general which is what most people mean when they talk about this? Well, that's a first. Still absurd anyway.


When I said 'Here in the civilised world', I mean here were I reside.
I also went on to separate the US with its own set of problems. You then came up with some information about lynchings that were irrelevant to my point. That is all.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 11:26 - 22 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

arry wrote:


Is your point that the West somehow isn't more advanced in its social development?


No, my point is that the west is full of its own atrocities within living memory, so it just seems a bit rich to claim that our side of the world is really that much better. Tyranny is always just around the corner; I doubt any person really expects it to happen on their doorstep, and then it happens.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 13:31 - 22 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
arry wrote:


Is your point that the West somehow isn't more advanced in its social development?


No, my point is that the west is full of its own atrocities within living memory, so it just seems a bit rich to claim that our side of the world is really that much better. Tyranny is always just around the corner; I doubt any person really expects it to happen on their doorstep, and then it happens.


Social development can advance as a consequence of tyranny too, in its aftermath.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 13:35 - 22 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Social development can also regress from internal and external factors.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 13:37 - 22 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
Social development can also regress from internal and external factors.


People can wind up committing suicide from too much exposure to negativity Laughing
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 18:39 - 22 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
arry wrote:


Is your point that the West somehow isn't more advanced in its social development?


No, my point is that the west is full of its own atrocities within living memory, so it just seems a bit rich to claim that our side of the world is really that much better. Tyranny is always just around the corner; I doubt any person really expects it to happen on their doorstep, and then it happens.


Full of it's own atrocities within living memory? Which ones? Although I suppose it depends what you call an atrocity. If you include terror atrocities, 9-11 was a pretty big one in my eyes.

Anyway, it isn't just about atrocities. It's about life in general and running a country.

Banjul, the capital of The Gambia is the only country that I have visited or worked that I was told to hire my own personal minder and not leave the hotel without him. Nigeria (Port Harcourt) I lived in a guarded complex. The Congo (Kinshasa), armed guard to and from the airport and not to leave the hotel unescorted (although they never stipulated what escort Cool ).

Even in Mexico, Egypt, Venezuela and Panama which have the reputation of being rather unsavoury I have never had that sort of imposition put on me.

It has nothing to do with colonisation or as previously mentioned India would be the same, as would Malaysia, Singapore, Malta, Algeria, Morocco Tunisia etc. etc.

It can't be the climate, Africa sub Sahara has just about every climate going.

So why is there not a well run sub Saharan (Black African) country? Bad luck? Rolling Eyes
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sensi5446
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PostPosted: 19:07 - 22 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Polarbear"]
Lord Percy wrote:

So why is there not a well run sub Saharan (Black African) country? Bad luck? Rolling Eyes


Corruption has to be the biggest reason with east and west having as vested interest in keeping it this way.

It was not always this way, sub Saharan Africa was once very advanced if your willing to do your own research.
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sensi5446
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PostPosted: 19:10 - 22 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

borked wrote:

The below image will upset many, fact is it explains all of the above.

Que, people saying IQ isn't a valid metric etc etc... Laughing


https://i.imgur.com/g7k3hRZ.png


The fact you believe in what you posted above shows your IQ level.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 19:45 - 22 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensi5446 wrote:
sub Saharan Africa was once very advanced if your willing to do your own research.

Spaceships and all sorts.

What happened?
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ThoughtContro...
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PostPosted: 19:52 - 22 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
sensi5446 wrote:
sub Saharan Africa was once very advanced if your willing to do your own research.

Spaceships and all sorts.

What happened?


The Europeans stole all the vibranium.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 19:57 - 22 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensi5446 wrote:


Corruption has to be the biggest reason with east and west having as vested interest in keeping it this way.

It was not always this way, sub Saharan Africa was once very advanced if your willing to do your own research.


There can only be corruption if people want to be corrupted.

And no, it was never very advanced.
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c_dug
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PostPosted: 22:03 - 22 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been thinking about this a bit for the last day or two, also watching a re-run of a Louis Theroux doc on the beeb added to the thinking.

I think we all know black people who are intelligent members of the community, who hold down every day jobs, who've never been to prison, who have perfectly functioning families. Who are generally just like you, other than skin colour. Shock horror, there are even black forum members amongst us Shocked

Or maybe you don't know any, which is a shame. I live in London so I have a few friends who are black (even a Muslim or two *gasp*), it comes with the turf. Maybe try and meet a few if you dont, before tarring all with the same brush.

That said, my black (and Muslim for that matter) friends are generally speaking the ones who have broken away from (or have never been part of) large segregated communities of people. My friends all speak English as a first language, in a local accent, and are generally not religious in any devout sense.

With the above very much in mind, my next thought is that although the issue isn't to do with being black, it is in some ways a black issue, or a community issue at least.

The difficulty with being surrounded by like minded people is that it's very easy to convince yourself you're right. And this loop of self confirmation tends to lead to more extreme views. With nobody to challenge your thinking it's easy to blame others outside the circle for the hardships in life. Critical thinking, debating and arguing points is what leads to self reflection.

Modern western education teaches critical thinking. The difficulty is now that many black communities have convinced themselves that the western way is bad. Western and white have become synonymous, and in South Africa white people were behind years of misery and segregation.

These communities, both inside and outside of Africa often reject the education systen. So no modern education, no critical thinking, no self reflection, no improvement.

Without embracing a modern western education and western way of life these countries and people will never grow themselves into a modern western society recognisable to you and I.

It takes big cities and large integrated communities to make big money in the modern economy. It takes rules, and law abiding citizens to make large cities work. It takes hard work, and patience. For the most part we all start with very little, and work hard our whole lives with the belief that we're going to have it better, have more, have it easier.

Until people of any colour or creed can understand the rules of the game, and can modify their behaviours to fit that mold, they will never successfully have a modern western country.

Perhaps they don't want that?

I'm sure some see the truth of the matter, and know what needs to happen.

The difficult question for the rest of us, is do we want to invest our time and money into westernising these people quicker than they will themselves?

The larger the community the more difficult to change, China obviously believes they can influence things in Africa, they're making the investment, they'll probably see the benefit down the line too.

At home the question is more difficult to answer, possibly forcing people to segregate would speed things up? Perhaps forced boarding schools? 5 years compulsory military service if you don't have a job or a degree by 25? Abolish religion?

How far do we go in order to secure the western way. It westnisation more important than culture? More important than civil rights? More important than offending people, or tearing apart families and communities?

Much of the above goes for our white British communities too, blaming it on skin colour just goes to re-enforce the believe that the western culture is bad, it gives segregated communities something to point and and say "See!" to their peers. [/quote]
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c_dug
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PostPosted: 22:23 - 22 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to clarify as well, by embracing the western way, really I mean learning to respect law and order and have a sense of fairness in the wider community.

Those aspects can exist alongside most other culture, no issue with music, clothes, language, art, food or religion from anywhere in the world, but they have to play second fiddle to law and order or the whole system comes crumbling down.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 23:16 - 22 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

c_dug wrote:
Wrote an essay


I agree with most of what you wrote. Especially with regard to communities in this country. I think it's very different from the problems in Africa though.

The Nigerians I worked with in the Nigeria LNG Co. were the elite. They had the money, the US and UK education (either in those countries or schools in Nigeria set up for the monied classes)

They were also quite happy to carry on with the corruption that was rife. A case in point was electricity. They, to a man, paid a government electricity worker to run a cable to their house and then paid him a monthly sum to keep it going. They never paid a penny to the electric company. Obviously said worker paid a cut to his boss who paid a cut to his boss etc.

If you were stopped by the police for anything, a 1000 naira note sent them on their way (though for anything major they wanted US dollars Rolling Eyes ). The thing is they (the rich Nigerians) were quite happy with the system.

Yet the same people, when they came to work in the UK at Shell's Offices, were quite content with the system over here. No bribes, no backhanders etc. Didn't bother them in the slightest. Of course it didn't, they were rich.

So why won't they change Nigeria. These people had relations high up in government and the armed forces, they weren't nobodies, but weren't interested in stopping corruption. Question
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 00:17 - 23 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

c_dug wrote:
Modern western education teaches critical thinking.


It really doesn't https://hackeducation.com/2015/04/25/factory-model

Education in the western world is based on the Prussian schooling model. Think why 20% of the UK population is functionally illiterate and we've got MPDs of the world who think they're super smart yet can't form coherent arguments.

In regards to the other parts.

Your saviour complex is showing.

Almost exactly the same as the past 200 years. Whereby the savages need to be civilised, that worked out well right?

China has at numerous points in history been the most advanced and civilised nation on earth.

Under the Tang, it was great for a couple 100 years it then went to crap. Then the Ming it was great for a couple 100 years it then went to crap. Then the Qing it was great for a couple 100 years. It then went to crap.

It smacks of massive exceptionalism that your own society is the pinnacle of human civilisation and that your own society is immune and will never go to crap.

You look at the American cities and you're horrified by the 3000 shootings in average sized cities. You think a Japanese person wouldn't be horrified at the daily stabbings and comparatively high crime rate? When 2 in 5 men in the UK have a criminal record?

c_dug wrote:
really I mean learning to respect law and order and have a sense of fairness in the wider community.

but they have to play second fiddle to law and order or the whole system comes crumbling down.


Laughing Laughing Laughing

The UK doesn't have rule of law. Rule of law means everybody is equal under the law. The Queen isn't subject to the law she mostly doesn't test it though. Nor are MPs. They have tons of special exemptions 2 days ago they voted to for privacy for misconduct and crimes. Within 2 hours all traces of investigations were removed from the internet.

You've got Ian Paiseley who took a 100K bribe and simply apologised for it.



If you say EVERYBODY needs to be westernised. I'll say it everybody needs to be Sinocised:

Why?

Education is valued, it isn't in the UK.
First time buyer age is 24 in the PRC, not mortgagee own outright.
Social bonds are still in place. None of this old peoples home stuff.
People get to retire at 60.
Crime is extremely low compared to the UK.
China is pumping out patents and increasing numbers of the top 100 universities are in the PRC.
The Friday night drink related violence doesn't exist.
Ethnics are given more rights than the majority.




You of course will respond in the only way you can that is by attacking me. I can live wherever I want. Other half lives here. Though I am effectively a tax exile Very Happy
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 01:53 - 23 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

You get attacked Itchy because you selectively take the bits you want and ignore the bits that show your argument to be shit.

Home ownership in China is high because of a purchasing system in the past that makes 'right to buy' look like pocket money discounts.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshepard/2016/03/30/how-people-in-china-afford-their-outrageously-expensive-homes/#39938714a3ce

Ethnics are given more rights than the majority? Which Chinese propaganda books have your been reading?

https://extranewsfeed.com/uyghur-muslims-victims-of-the-worlds-largest-ethnic-cleansing-ba2c4aa5ff53

and

https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/china-trying-wipe-out-tibetan-race-by-promoting-interracial-marriages-1461656

Then there is crime. Yes it is probably less but it's hardly the utopia you suggest/

https://factsanddetails.com/china/cat8/sub50/item302.html

And that's 10 seconds of typing into google. (oh, maybe Googles lying as well)
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mentalboy
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PostPosted: 02:19 - 23 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

c_dug wrote:


That said, my black (and Muslim for that matter) friends are generally speaking the ones who have broken away from (or have never been part

With the above very much in mind, my next thought is that although the issue isn't to do with being black, it is in some ways a black issue, or a community issue at least.

The difficulty with being surrounded by like minded people is that it's very easy to convince yourself you're right. And this loop of self confirmation tends to lead to more extreme views. With nobody to challenge your thinking it's easy to blame others outside the circle for the hardships in life...
These communities, both inside and outside of Africa often reject the education systen. So no modern education, no critical thinking, no self reflection, no improvement.

Without embracing a modern western education and western way of life these countries and people will never grow themselves into a modern western society recognisable to you and I.



Until people of any colour or creed can understand the rules of the game, and can modify their behaviours to fit that mold, they will never successfully have a modern western country.

Perhaps they don't want that?



Some would be surprised to find countries in Europe, full of Caucasians, that still hang on to their old ways. Moldova, for example, makes many African countries look like national versions of Milton Keynes.

Edit: Come to think of it, there are many parts of America where people follow the sheep mentality and reject science because Pastor Dick says so!
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MCN
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PostPosted: 05:26 - 23 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

mentalboy wrote:
c_dug wrote:


That said, my black (and Muslim for that matter) friends are generally speaking the ones who have broken away from (or have never been part

With the above very much in mind, my next thought is that although the issue isn't to do with being black, it is in some ways a black issue, or a community issue at least.

The difficulty with being surrounded by like minded people is that it's very easy to convince yourself you're right. And this loop of self confirmation tends to lead to more extreme views. With nobody to challenge your thinking it's easy to blame others outside the circle for the hardships in life...
These communities, both inside and outside of Africa often reject the education systen. So no modern education, no critical thinking, no self reflection, no improvement.

Without embracing a modern western education and western way of life these countries and people will never grow themselves into a modern western society recognisable to you and I.



Until people of any colour or creed can understand the rules of the game, and can modify their behaviours to fit that mold, they will never successfully have a modern western country.

Perhaps they don't want that?



Some would be surprised to find countries in Europe, full of Caucasians, that still hang on to their old ways. Moldova, for example, makes many African countries look like national versions of Milton Keynes.

Edit: Come to think of it, there are many parts of America where people follow the sheep mentality and reject science because Pastor Dick says so!


Moldova, (Moldovia) possibly the poorest country in Europe. A former member state of the USSR (Who dropped all their colonial conquests like hot tatties when Glastnost and Perestroika kicked in and no cnut said nowt probably for fear of reprisals.)

I've only met one Moldovan and it was in a Glasgow bar where the girls dance real close to male strangers for cash.

She was dead pretty, dead pretty, and was rather insistent that I pay for her to “dance for me“.
This exchange went on for about an hour before she realised hat I really am from Glezga and won't pay 200 quid for some burd tae wheegh her kegs aff.
She dropped the allure and fcuked off to ply her trades with some other sucker.

£200 for dance? My Mrs. does all of that stuff for a bottle of Chardonnay.
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PostPosted: 07:14 - 23 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

MCN wrote:

I've only met one Moldovan and it was in a Glasgow bar where the girls dance real close to male strangers for cash.

She was dead pretty, dead pretty, and was rather insistent that I pay for her to “dance for me“.
This exchange went on for about an hour before she realised hat I really am from Glezga and won't pay 200 quid for some burd tae wheegh her kegs aff.
She dropped the allure and fcuked off to ply her trades with some other sucker.

£200 for dance? My Mrs. does all of that stuff for a bottle of Chardonnay.


There, civilisation at it's best Thumbs Up
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c_dug
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PostPosted: 07:38 - 23 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

c_dug wrote:
West West West


Itchy wrote:
China China China


A rose by any other name would still smell as sweet.

You can argue that the Chinese way is better than the British way all you like, you might be right, I wouldn't claim to known either way, but arguing over nuances of home ownership or debt to GDP ratio or the hundreds of other metrics used to judge countries is meaningless when most of Africa is decades off of being measurable on the same scale.

Whether the change comes from China, the West, or from their own self development makes bugger all difference. The end goal still needs to be a country that by and large follows the rules, and more importantly is trusted to pay back debts.

Until that point, corrupt individuals may well thrive, but the country itself will languish behind. It'll take decades of investment and development to modernise many of these countries, and nobody will put their money there until they believe they'll see it back.
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