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A2 bike general suggestions

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adengtg
Scooby Slapper



Joined: 02 Sep 2017
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PostPosted: 19:50 - 21 Jul 2018    Post subject: A2 bike general suggestions Reply with quote

Following my last thread about A2 restrictions:
What are a few good recommendations for cheap A2 bikes, restricted or not? I'm not too bothered about the type although SM, Sport tourers and nakeds are what i would prefer. Not actually thought of an ADV bike but if there any any that are A2 friendly and cheap i would happily get one as long as it had some off-road potential.

Budget of roughly £1300 but could change.< Bike only

Sv650's are mainly what ive been looking at as they seem to be good all rounders for what i need. Ive been looking for cheap Drz400's but cant seems to find any in my price range.

I dont really need to have a specific type of bike as my commute will range from 30min to 1hr but then again a dual-sport probably wouldn't be the best option.

Any suggestions welcome, thanks for the help!
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ThatDippyTwat
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Joined: 07 Aug 2016
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PostPosted: 20:52 - 21 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Go pass your test. Then worry about bikes.
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arry
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PostPosted: 20:57 - 21 Jul 2018    Post subject: Re: A2 bike general suggestions Reply with quote

adengtg wrote:


Budget of roughly £1300 but could change.< Bike only


Anything you find in reasonable condition is all you can ask for on that budget.
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Teflon-Mike
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Joined: 01 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: 21:23 - 21 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd suggest that getting the A2 to be able top legally ride an A2 bike aught be slightly higher up the list of priorities.

In there, the suggested niggles with swapping 125 insurance to another bike, more so a bigger bike, would similarly be higher up my priorities of research.

Meanwhile;l kicking heels making fantacy plans; whilst making comments about taking an extended short DAS course to include 125 conversion, because of lack of 'experience', after a year on the roads on a 125... I' would SUGGEST that the best thing you could do is go book Theory, Mod1 and Mod2 for your A1 licence, whilst you still have a bike you can take them tests on. You don't get 'experience' doing what you have already done umpety times for4 a year, or doing lessons, you get experience of tests and learn the ropes taking the tests!

There the same ones for A1 as A2.. and cheap, cos you dont have to book a course to get a bike to do-em on! Much win if you pass, and experience of tests and that you can pass tests; come booking an A2 course if you want to upgrade licence.

Means that areas of uncertainty you are currently just speculating over are much smaller if there at all; you should have confidence and experience, and useful experience, knowing what to do on test... just on bigger heavier bike.

In the meantime, with just one month until you have to re-insure the lexmoto, and likely take out a full years policy (I am pretty sure no-one now offers month-by-month policies on anything, and even when they did they were rather expensive compared to a full year premium).. and counting chickens that aren't yet hatched over how much money you might have for a course, and tests and a licence, and have left over for an A2 bike, and insurance after... its ALL speculation... and the best laid plans of mice and men, for awd murphey to look at and work out how best to eff-up for you.

THEN if and when you have a full licence in your pocket, if and when thats an A2 eligible licence; THEN you might go bike shopping, and whatever fantacy legue ideas we suggest right now, will, out in the real world, likely be murpoheyed by what's actually on sale when and if it comes to it, at the price you actually have cash to afford....

And given that that will likely be in winter when fewest bikes is on sale, and weather's at its worst, suggestion of riding it out a wile on the Lexmoto, until there's more choice, and or something better comes along, and or an extra years NCB is accrued MAY be a more sensible way to go... than the here and now frustration of just wanting a bigger faster bike, because your Lexmoto cant break as many speed limits as an ER5.....

BTW, your concern for being a larger lad, shouldn't be so much of an issue; I very much doubt that you are as heavy as the combined weight of me and snowie, I used to regularly two-up on her 55mph cruiserette thing... and having to cog down from top to tackle hills or headwinds? Yeah, that's not a Lexmoto thing, that's a motorbike thing! 125's dont 'cruise' in top, and 5th so often an effective over-drive, I am surprised you even use it all that often; even on the Super-Dream I get close to max speed out the thing in 4th, and only use 5th if I am really sure its worth it on a faster A-Road or duelie without turn offs or bends to beg swift swapping And it doesn't go away with a bigger bike; you still have to shift gears!

Old adage; Ride THIS bit of road you be on here and now; whats up the road is up the road; worry about that when you get to it!

There are, at this moment in time bigger fish you could, more usefully be frying.
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Kentol750
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PostPosted: 21:35 - 21 Jul 2018    Post subject: +1 Reply with quote

And that is the shortest, most apt 'teffing' you'll see for some time!
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adengtg
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Joined: 02 Sep 2017
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PostPosted: 00:31 - 22 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teflon-Mike wrote:
I'd suggest that getting the A2 to be able top legally ride an A2 bike aught be slightly higher up the list of priorities.

In there, the suggested niggles with swapping 125 insurance to another bike, more so a bigger bike, would similarly be higher up my priorities of research.

Meanwhile;l kicking heels making fantacy plans; whilst making comments about taking an extended short DAS course to include 125 conversion, because of lack of 'experience', after a year on the roads on a 125... I' would SUGGEST that the best thing you could do is go book Theory, Mod1 and Mod2 for your A1 licence, whilst you still have a bike you can take them tests on. You don't get 'experience' doing what you have already done umpety times for4 a year, or doing lessons, you get experience of tests and learn the ropes taking the tests!

There the same ones for A1 as A2.. and cheap, cos you dont have to book a course to get a bike to do-em on! Much win if you pass, and experience of tests and that you can pass tests; come booking an A2 course if you want to upgrade licence.

Means that areas of uncertainty you are currently just speculating over are much smaller if there at all; you should have confidence and experience, and useful experience, knowing what to do on test... just on bigger heavier bike.

In the meantime, with just one month until you have to re-insure the lexmoto, and likely take out a full years policy (I am pretty sure no-one now offers month-by-month policies on anything, and even when they did they were rather expensive compared to a full year premium).. and counting chickens that aren't yet hatched over how much money you might have for a course, and tests and a licence, and have left over for an A2 bike, and insurance after... its ALL speculation... and the best laid plans of mice and men, for awd murphey to look at and work out how best to eff-up for you.

THEN if and when you have a full licence in your pocket, if and when thats an A2 eligible licence; THEN you might go bike shopping, and whatever fantacy legue ideas we suggest right now, will, out in the real world, likely be murpoheyed by what's actually on sale when and if it comes to it, at the price you actually have cash to afford....

And given that that will likely be in winter when fewest bikes is on sale, and weather's at its worst, suggestion of riding it out a wile on the Lexmoto, until there's more choice, and or something better comes along, and or an extra years NCB is accrued MAY be a more sensible way to go... than the here and now frustration of just wanting a bigger faster bike, because your Lexmoto cant break as many speed limits as an ER5.....

BTW, your concern for being a larger lad, shouldn't be so much of an issue; I very much doubt that you are as heavy as the combined weight of me and snowie, I used to regularly two-up on her 55mph cruiserette thing... and having to cog down from top to tackle hills or headwinds? Yeah, that's not a Lexmoto thing, that's a motorbike thing! 125's dont 'cruise' in top, and 5th so often an effective over-drive, I am surprised you even use it all that often; even on the Super-Dream I get close to max speed out the thing in 4th, and only use 5th if I am really sure its worth it on a faster A-Road or duelie without turn offs or bends to beg swift swapping And it doesn't go away with a bigger bike; you still have to shift gears!

Old adage; Ride THIS bit of road you be on here and now; whats up the road is up the road; worry about that when you get to it!

There are, at this moment in time bigger fish you could, more usefully be frying.


Look, i just wanted some suggestions. i'm not going to go and buy anything or start emailing people about bikes until ive got the licence in my hand. i jsut wanted a few suggestions of what might be a good choice. Thanks anyway!
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notabikeranym...
Formerly known as
meef



Joined: 02 Apr 2014
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PostPosted: 00:47 - 22 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most people go for SV650 on A2. Super capable bikes, lots of mates wnet for these. Won't really get bored, and you can always derestrict it if you do and fuck about with more power. Coppers unlikely to find out unless you're a twat.
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Ste
Not Work Safe



Joined: 01 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: 01:13 - 22 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

On a full licence. a 125, is fantastic around town, where its light weight and anouverablity can be exploited to weave it through traffic and its a darn site less tiresome ridng a 125Kg ightweight through stop-start cty snarl than it is a 200Kg heavy-weight, believe me! Also bonus when you have to find a park place and haul it onto the centre stand! Or push it up the camber back onto teh road, etc etc etc. High MPG and long life tyres and chans, that dont cost that much when they do wear out; a years tax for less than a tank of fuel, THIS is what these little bikes are bult for, what they excell at, and where they are in thier element.... and a bigger bike is likely just costng more to make the job a bit harder to massage ego along the way.

For 'fun'.. 125's right well above thier weight; I find that because they are of limited performance you HAVE to get involved you HAVE to work them hard, you HAVE to engage and you CANNOT get it wrong, or you loose all your hard won benefit; so making good progress on a 125, is FAR more rewarding to me than riding a big-bike, which with so much more potential performance than I can use much of the time, ISN'T rewarding in the 'ridng'.. more comfy and less effort gettng places, seeng stuff, but thats a differnt sort of fun.

Comes down to horses for courses at the end of the day. Big bikes have thier benefits, but you tend to pay a lot for them. Little ikes have thiers too, and cheap can be big part of that, but they are ofte more compromised, comes down to what is the best allround compromse for the job....

And remember, its a FULL licence, not a Big-Bike licence you dont HAVE to go buy a 500 within six weeks of passing tests! You can still ride a 125 on one IF thats what suits.. ether for early miles experiene or commuting, or ust low cost giggles...

BUT if you want that 'safe' its n your head, not n what you put on your head... GO GET THE LESSONS, get the licence, THEN think more about what may 'suit' the job... and dont sweat the small stuff, its a bike, a first bike, you are buying one not marrying one, it needn;t be your last bike or your only bike; ALL options are open... BUT get the training! THAT is the key, to everything else.

The practical limits of the Hi-Po two stroke seem to be at around 200bhp per litre; and at that level, the loading on such open bearings and the rather less stiff pressed up cranks that are needed to use them, mean that component lifes are short, and for a road bike those emissions have been unacceptable in most western markets for decades.

If you look at the BMW S1000R... you have a four-stroke production bike, that out the crate, is delivering 200bhp per litre.... as much as the last of the 500cc two-stroke GP bikes... and suffering similar problems of managing that, begging sophisticated electronic rider aids to do so! But still.... It shows how in the last twenty five years, four-stroke technology has evolved, to the point that it can achieve the same power levels as ever the two-strokes could have, and yet do it with consumer levels of durability ad reliability AND eviro-mentally tolerable levels of 'emmissions'. Mostly because the charge doesn't have to go through the crank case, and stiffer cranks and stronger bearings can be used.

As to the matter of the smaller displacements? The 'optimum' displacement for a four-stroke cylinder, is somewhere around 400-500cc, but it's a fairly 'flat' curve. The optimum doesn't drop off too much as you get much bigger or much smaller. It do with a two-stroke! Their optimum cylinder displacement is probably around 150-175cc. Much bigger or much smaller and the performance and efficiency drops off sharply; 125cc is probably the most common displacement due to legacy and regulation, both for licence or tax or public roads or classes in racing.

First up, I like 125's, and have more than a couple knocking about; the general derision they receive, to my mind is enormously unfair. The main reason for this is the perception as 'Kiddie-Bikes' for non enthusiasts without a licence. You don't get new car driver's being told, "Oh-No, DON'T get a Ford Firsta 1.1 you'll be 'bored' within a month.. buy a Ferrari".. attitude is more revealing of common biker attitudes than it is anything else, and unfortunate reveal of how motorcycles, and especially so bigger ones, now are almost entirely life-style leisure implements like golf clubs or fishing rods, rather than practical transport.

When I started riding on the road, the annual average miles of a car, was around 12-15K; there were still less cars than there were households in the UK, and most households only had one car, if any. Annual average miles for a bike, was around 6-9K, used as one persons sole transport , rather than a car serving for an entire family.

In your life-time, the average miles on a car has dropped slightly, but not much! It is still approx 12K miles a year; as the two-car household has become the 'norm'. Meanwhile, annual average motorcycle miles have fallen to approx 3K a year, as they have become far more often 2nd vehicles for leisure use only.

It's interesting to note, though, that many bikes clock less than 1000miles a year between MOT's, many less than 500, and most of these low mile motorcycles are big-bikes, taken out only for an occasional thrash on a sunny Sunday... and it is the little 125's, clocking up the regular 6Kish a year commuter miles as every day transport, dragging up the average? You tell ME which sounds more like a 'toy'?

NOW... first up... just because a 125 is little, is in no way some sort of safety net; dangers on a bike are dangers, they are NOT proportional to the size of hole in the engine where fire happens; you can get into just as much trouble on a little bike as a big one. A four-stroke 125, aught to be able to achieve 'almost' a genuine 70mph, if not a tad over; ie they are as fast as any other motorcycle is legally allowed to go in this country.. Bigger bikes, can get you into trouble quicker, but, ironically again, the surveys suggest that excess speed is NOT a contributory factor in most motorcycle accidents, of which around 2/3 occur in urban or semi-urban districts subject to sub 50mph speed limits...

BIGGEST danger on a bike.... is the twat in the hat! If they don't know what they are about, or they don't care, then matters little what they are riding, and a bigger faster bike will just let them find trouble quicker.

After that, largest danger is general road conditions; and high use urban roads, with the slowest speed limits, the most vehicles, and most hazards by way of junctions and parked cars and kids on the pavement, compressed into the smallest area....

The typical hobby-biker, doowing DAS, getting a 600 and heading out onto the lanes on sunny evenings and weekends trying for knee-down, is probably the highest risk rider going, but saved fro themselves by limited miles, and picking that low risk environment..... to crash, panic braking when they spot a GATSO, quite often... but still.

The CBT commuter, on the other hand? Is saved nothing by thier little engine. They are likely heading out every day, into the highest risk roads, at the highest risk times of day, and ramping that risk dong it for probably 10x the number of miles!!! Its quite astounding any of'em live to tell the tale, really..... but still again.....

Your election to follow the 125 route... I say it time and time again, time on a tiddler is rarely wasted.... B-U-T since they changed the licence system. that essentially discourages training and testing, merits of it are rather deminished.

From first principles; POWER, is an imaginary commodity, you cannot measure 'power' it doesn't actually exist at any actual moment of time. It is Defined as 'Rate of Work Done' so you may measure the work done, in a period of time, that's force x distance, but that is what you have what you can see, only after a period of time, can you retrospectively divide the work-done in that time period to derive the 'rate'..

Measured in the steady state, a brake-force dyometer reduces experimental accuracy by reducing he number of variables, specifically those that may change with time... and measuring base units, force, distance, time, the amount of calculation error is similarly reduced; hence 'Bench' dyno's can be very very much more accurate.

Measured in the dynamic state, an inertial dynometer, is subject to a huge degree of experimental accuracy then even more calculation error from taking only one measurement of speed, at usually incredibly short sampling periods, then any more added by the drive-train between the flywheel and the piston-tops.

Worth mentioning that DIN standards for quoted power include a 'back-motoring' factor; after running an engine up against the brake to get the delivered power, the dyno, which usually uses an electric generator to absorb delivered energy is 'back motored' to drive the engine to the same crank speed and measure the power needed to turn the crank, pistons, cam-shafts, valves, alternator etc etc etc... which is why DIN figures are often more flattering than ASA standard quoted power, and more so, the more cylinders and valves and stuff get back-driven...

Lets say we Dyno's a 100bhp bike engine.... if you measured that on an engine brake, you would probably get a figure of something in the order of 97bhp, at the crank, which would come 'up' to 100bhp after adding some 'correction' factors from measuring the lab conditions of air-temperature and barometric air-pressure, and 'correcting' to sea level and room temperature...

There we have a 3% discrepancy before we even start....

Oh-Kay.. now Correct to DIN, and back-motor the engine, and measure the power loses, driving the valve train, oil pump, and gerator and shit.....

Worth mentioning at this point that in the early 1970's the huge drop in quoted power for US muscle cars wasn't entirely due to detuning to meet emission controls, but 'standards' where to flatter muscle-motors they were often bench tested with the ignition powered from a bench supply, the motor bare of alternator, without a water-pump cooling water circulated off a mains tap or header tank, some-times even with the oil pump disconected and the sump 'dry' the motor lubed off an external oil supply! What had been sold as 300bhp cars the year before suddenly became 220bhp cars... around a 25% discrepancy.. without making any allowance for power-steering pups or air-con compressors in the vehicle 'as sold'!!!

This is the sort of discrepancy you can easily get from adding 'back-motoring' correction, and the more cylinders you have, the more cams and valves you have, the more complex the motor by way of water-cooling etc, the more those back-motoring 'losses' will be, so the more adding them will flatter quoted power figures.

NOW lets put something on a rolling road... that 100bhp motor, that actually delivered 97bhp to a brake, but possibly got quoted at as much as 108bhp with back-motoring losses added, now delivers probably something like 85bhp to the rollers.... inertial dyno's seldom have back-motoring capability to measure the driven loses, but, we now have a chunk load more possibly drive-line losses basically to just 'guess' at.....

As said, they are not the most accurate to begin with; and have an even larger scope for calculation error.... SO start adding corection figures for ambient conditions and presumd transmission and back-motoring losses, and you are int a HUGE arena of speculation....

What rolling roads are good for is NOT absolute power ratings, but comparative readings, setting up an engine, taking a base line figure running an engine up before making set-up changes, then after figures to compare gains or losses.. minimizing variables comparing the same road, same operator, same calcs and correction etc.

The typical 5-10% losses in a motorbike transmission, REALLY are pretty small potatoes in the grater scheme of measurement and calculation accuracy, or even the discrepancy that can me provided by different standards that include or exclude more or less back-motoring, BEFORE you get to the big set up and the effect of tyre temperature or the strap-down force and tyre pressure etc!

And when you get up to 150+bhp regions, driving a roller through a single tyre, the amount of experimental error, the degree of calculation error, the degree of variation provided by correcton to different standars is enormous, and the relatively small % of loss in the transmission, is essentially insignificant in that % ambiguity...

NOW... stick the bikes up the strip.... when the flag-drops the bullshit stops..... and what gets t the timing lights first will even then not be the bike with the most 'measured' power, but the one that, and has the rider that may, in the real world can put most to that into effect....

Which begs the question.. what REALLY is your question? If you want to argue dyno races, then, grab a beer, and add a lot of peanut salt to whatever any-one says.... if you want to know how 'quick' a bike is... take t to a track!

If you are OLD ENOUGH to ride a motorbike, if you can AFFORD to ride a motorbike; you are old enough and rich enough to take the tests and have ANY bike you want and can afford, NOT merely a Learner-Legal!

ALL for the sake of taking the tests and getting the PROPER licence.

The Motorcycle Test, Licence Categories & Age Restrictions

To gain a FULL moped or motorcycle licence, there are three tests.

Motorcycle Theory/Hazard Perception

Module 1 'Off-Road' practical test

Module 2 'On-Road' practical test.

These tests are conducted by the Driving Standards Agency, not the school you did CBT with. But the School may offer training to help you pass them.

As from January 19th 2013, there are three 'test schemes'; one for each category of motorcycle licence entitlement, to be applied to the two practical tests, Mod 1 & Mod 2. Plus one for moped entitlement. (Both Practical Tests Mods1 & Mod 2 must be taken on the same class of motorcycle.)

Category AM = Moped

You must be at least 16 years to ride a moped, and to take the full moped licence tests.

You may, upon completion of CBT ride a moped on provisional licence entitlement, without supervision, before passing the full motorcycle tests, though you must display L-Plates and may not carry a pillion passenger.

Test requires a vehicle conforming to the legal specifications of a 'Moped' (see:- What is a Moped?), briefly a 50cc motorcycle, that says 'Moped' on the Registration document! It may be any style of powered two wheeler, like a scooter or a sports-bike, it may be twist & go automatic or have gears; but it must be less than 50cc and not be capable of more than about 35mph.

Both tests must be taken, as for the motorcycle test, and The tests are identical to the motorcycle tests, though allowances are made for the lower performance of the vehicle; eg during the Mod 1 exercises, that normally require a serve and e-stop manoeuvre above proscribed speeds that a moped would not be expected to achieve.

Passing tests under this scheme is awarded with Full Category P licence entitlement, that allows you to ride a moped, which must still conform to moped power, speed and weight restrictions. But without L-Plates and you may carry pillion passengers. Note:- Mopeds may NOT use motorways, irrespective of whether the rider has a full licence of any category. (See also What Can I ride When I have Passed my Tests?)



Category A1 = 'Light Motorcycle'

You must be at least 17 years to ride an A1 category 'Light Motorcycle', and to take motorcycle tests under the A1 test scheme.

You may, upon completion of CBT, ride an A1 / Learner-Legal motorcycle on provisional licence entitlement, without supervision, before passing the full motorcycle tests, though you must display L-Plates and may not carry a pillion passenger, or use motorways.

Test requires a vehicle conforming to the 'Learner-Legal' Motorcycle ( see:- What is a 'Learner-Legal' Motorcycle?), Briefly a machine up to 125cc, with no more than 11Kw/14.5bhp power, but with minimum performance requirements for test; the machine must be over 120cc capacity and capable of 62mph. Again, the machine may be of any style; a scooter, commuter-bike, sports-bike, cruiser etc, and again, may have a twist & go automatic transmission or manual gears.

Passing tests under this scheme is awarded with Full Catagory A1 licence entitlement, that allows you to ride a motorcycle of the same performance specification as is 'Learner-Legal' essentially still an 11Kw/14.5bhp 125cc machine, but without L-Plates. You may also carry pillion passengers, and if you wish, use motorways. (See also What Can I ride When I have Passed my Tests?)

Category AM (moped) entitlement is automatically awarded with A1 entitlement, if not already held.

Catagory A2 = 'Middleweight Motorcycle' / Restricted Licence

You must be at least 19 years to ride an A2 category 'Middleweight Motorcycle', and to take motorcycle tests under the A2 test scheme.

Provisional-Licence entitlement remains that you may, upon completion of CBT, ride an A1 / Learner-Legal motorcycle, without supervision, before passing the full motorcycle tests, though you must display L-Plates and may not carry a pillion passenger, or use motorways.

You may, NOT however ride ANY motorcycle other machine, unsupervised, ahead of passing the full motorcycle test for higher groups (A2 or A3/Full A)

However, you MAY ride a machine compliant with A2 restrictions, on provisional entitlement, IF you are under supervision of a DSA approved Motorcycle Instructor, or DSA Motorcycle Examiner, whilst training or taking tests. (There is NO exemption to this to ride an A2 machine unsupervised to a motorcycle test)

Test requires a vehicle. of at least 395cc with a power output between 25 and 35 kW (33bhp and 46.6 bhp). No upper engine size limit, but the power to weight ratio must not exceed 0.2kW/kg and it must not be derived from a motorcycle of more than double its power. Again, the machine may be of any style; a scooter, commuter-bike, sports-bike, cruiser etc, and again, may have a twist & go automatic transmission or manual gears.

Passing tests under this scheme is awarded with Full Catagory A2 licence entitlement, that allows you to ride a motorcycle of ANY engine capacity, but no more than 35Kw (approx 47bhp.) And may not have a power to weight ratio higher than 0.2Kw per Kg. The machine may be restricted from a model that manufacturers standard specifications claims more than 35Kw, but the standard model may not male more than 2 times the power required for restriction. (See also What Can I ride When I have Passed my Tests?)

After Passing tests, you do not need to display L-Plates. You may also carry pillion passengers, and if you wish, use motorways.

Category AM (moped) entitlement, and Category A1 (125 Only Motorcycle) entitlement, is automatically awarded with A2 entitlement, if not already held.

Category A or A3 = Unrestricted Motorcycle / Direct Access Scheme (DAS)

You must be at least 24 years to ride an unrestricted A category Motorcycle and to take motorcycle tests under the A3 / DAS test scheme. OR you must have held an A2 category licence for a minimum of 2 years. (So, if you pass A2 tests when you are 19-21, you can test again for DAS before you are 24, as long as you have held A2 at least 2 years)

Provisional-Licence entitlement remains that you may, upon completion of CBT, ride an A1 / Learner-Legal motorcycle, without supervision, before passing the full motorcycle tests, though you must display L-Plates and may not carry a pillion passenger, or use motorways.

You may, NOT however ride ANY motorcycle other machine, unsupervised, ahead of passing the full motorcycle test for that group.

However, you MAY ride any machine on provisional entitlement, IF you are under supervision of a DSA approved Motorcycle Instructor, or DSA Motorcycle Examiner, whilst training or taking tests. (There is NO exemption to this to ride an A2 machine unsupervised to a motorcycle test)

Test requires a vehicle over 595cc with a power output of at least 40kw or (53.6bhp). From the end of 2013 the power output will change to at least 50 kW. A minimum weight of 180 kg will also apply. Again, the machine may be of any style; a scooter, commuter-bike, sports-bike, cruiser etc, and again, may have a twist & go automatic transmission or manual gears.

Passing tests under this scheme is awarded with Full Category A / A3 licence entitlement, that allows you to ride a motorcycle of ANY engine capacity or engine power output. This does not necessarily mean that you have to, or that it is a good idea, to jump on the biggest, fastest piece of machinery you can find! (See also What Can I ride When I have Passed my Tests?)

After Passing tests, you do not need to display L-Plates. You may also carry pillion passengers, and if you wish, use motorways.

Category AM (moped) entitlement, Category A1 (125 Only Motorcycle) entitlement, and Category A2 (33Kw or 47bhp 'restricted motorcycle) entitlement, is automatically awarded with full A / A3 entitlement, if not already held.

Automatic Transmission Restrictions

Pretty simple; you may test under any of the above test schemes, on a qualifying bike or scooter. Doesn't matter if it has a manual gear-box, or an automatic transmission, provided it meets other test requirements of engine displacement etc.

However IF you choose to use a machine that has an Automatic Transmission, for your tests, then again, you must use an auto for both Mod 1 and Mod 2 tests, AND if you pass both tests, your licence entitlement will be 'endorsed' with a restriction "Automatics Only", and you may NOT ride a geared machine.

Worth noting; The popular Honda C90 'Step-Through' commuter bike, has a three speed 'crunch' gear-box, and an automatic centrifugal clutch like a twist-and-go, and a number of contemporary motorcycles have engines derived from the old C90 motor, and retain the centrifugal clutch. Many now have a four speed gearbox, and have been bored out to a full A2 complient 125cc. The Honda Inova, is basically the successor to the C90 and has the 125cc 4-speed centrifugal clutch engine; but that engine & transmission is also used in many monkey-bikes, and pit-bikes, which are all A2 test compliant, if road-legal. However without a 'manual-clutch', a little digging with the DSA has revealed they are classed as 'Semi-Automatic' and hence testing on one will gain Auto-Only restriction, the same as testing on a twist & go. Bit of a pity that, as they DO have gears, but still.

When I gained my licence back in 1992, there was only one test scheme; you took the test on any 'learner-legal' motorcycle, up to 125cc that wasn't a moped, and you gained, straight away, a full unrestricted, ride what you like licence. They changed that, and until this year, you had to use a bike between 120 & 125cc, and do all three tests; and if you passed you got a restricted licence, that limited you to 33bhp machines for two years. But either way, it WAS possible to take tests on a 'Twist & Go'

Big front/ Small Back = higher ratio
Small font/Big Back - Higher ratio

To be honest, dropping one tooth on the front sprocket LOWERING the overall gear ratio, on a small bike, is as likely to have increased BOTH acceleration AND top speed.

Top speed is a function of power.

Power (made) = Cylinder Capacity x Cylinder Pressure x engine revs

Power (Transmitted) = Torque x Revs

So at the crank you have I umpety Newtons of Torque, times bilio thousand crank revs

At the back wheel you have umpety x overall gear ratio Newtons of torque times bilio / overall gear ratio thousand WHEEL revs.

So at 70mph, crank will be spinning 10,000rpm, rear wheel, about 3,300. Overall gear reduction between crank and wheel is about 3:1, so you will get 3x the torque at the wheel for 1/3 the revs.

Now,

Power (used) = Force (drag) x Speed.

Engine makes so much power, and you get that as 'force' at the rear wheel. As long as the supplied force is greater than the resistance, or drag force, bike accelerates.

Rate of acceleration is dependant on the DIFFERENCE in forces.

Force = Mass x Acceleratrion or Acceleration = Force / Mass.

BUT, Force causing acceleration is Rear Wheel Force - Drag Force.

And Drag increases with speed, so faster you go, more of your motive force gets used to over come drag, less is available for acceleration.

At some point the motive force delivered by the engine WONT leave any 'spare' for acceleration, and the bike will 'top out' at that speed where the drag at that speed = the max motive force the bike can deliver.

Make sense?

OK... now Lower the gearing, and you can get more force......BUT at a lower speed.....

So bike now accelerates and because of the extra advantage, always more force than drag..... BUT you run out of revs before you run out of acceleration..... bike could go faster, but you dont have another higher gear to change up into

OK, so we add another higher ratio... now you accelerate up in the lower gears, and each time you run out of revs, you change up, until you are in that new higher ratio....

Only trouble is, NOW, that ratio is SO high, when you shift up, while it will turn the wheel fast enough you wont run out of revs, its also reduced the force so much that not only is there NOT enough force to over come drag, let alone deliver any more acceleration.

Which is why we have to look at the power balence not the force balence:-

Power Made = Engine Capacity x Cylinder Pressure x Engine Revs
Power Used = Drag x Speed

You get max speed when you have gearing exactly set so that your max power exactly equals the road speed that used that power.

NOW, most bikes are 'over geared' in top, so that at higher road speeds, at part throttle, the engine revs can be backed off, and they can 'cruise' without making then engine scream so hard.

On bigger bikes they can over-gear quite significantly; you have a 140bhp ZZR1100 or something, at 10,K revs, it's probably making 30bhp as low as 3000rpm. Thats enough power to do 90mph, so COULD be geared in top to do, perhaps, 70 in top, at just 3000 revs, which would give a theoretical 140mph at 6K, and 280mph at 12K revs! 140bhp WONT push the thing to 280mph, it will struggle to go much over 170.... so if you want to achieve 'top speed' you would probably have to change down a gear, to get a lower reduction that isn't so masively 'over-tall' and puts peak power closer to real top speed.

TOP gear is in this case whats called an 'over-drive' gear......

Little 125, with only 10-11bhp to play with, is going to be geared much more closely to what the bike can REALLY Achieve in terms of top speed, becouse it doesn't have such an excess of low down power that there is anything to be gained by 'over-drive' gearing....

BUT they still 'tend' to over gear them, a little 'for economy'... and the CBF125 is a renowned 'ecconomy' motorcycle.

BIT of a cheat, TBH.... Fuel Consumption is ANOTHER expression of power....

Power = Rate of Energy Transfer

That's the base scientific defenition from which the other formula are derived.....

Whats Fuel Consumption?

Fuel = Energy, MPG the 'rate' its burned? So with a little licence, Fuel Consumption IS 'Power'.....

Back to the Sums:-

Power (used) = Speed x Drag
Power (transmitted) = Torque x Revs
Power (Made) = Engine Displacement x Cylinder Pressure x Engine revs
Power (Provided) = Rate of Burning Fuel

Make sense....

Slight asside; I have a v8 Range Rover.... I worked out that at 60mph, its supping a regular 330ml pop-can of fuel, every mile, or every minute! Scary! Even my kids cant down a can of coke THAT quick! anyway.....

Fuel Ecconomy comes NOT in any great measure from bike design or engine displacement or even 'efficiency' but from this simple principle.

Fuel Consumption is 'Power in' - and we use it to achieve 'speed'. Faster you GO, more fuel you gonna use!

My VF1000 is a pretty good example of how Mpg can 'vary' from use. Book says it should do 30mpg.... 'Touring', I have managed over 300 miles on 4 gallons of petrol.... so something in the order of 75mpg, twice what the book says it does..... conversely being a tad spirited, managed to get that down almost into single figures!

For comparison, CB125 Super-Dream; book says it does 90mpg, rarely see much more, though suspect that perhaps 100 is achieveable, if I tried... more usually around the 70 mark.

Or in other words, I have got BETTER ecconomy using a bike that is rated as 'dire' for ecconomy, 'gently' than I have an 'ecconomy' bike, more 'normally'.

Faster you go, more fuel you use!

THAT is by far the biggest variable in the ecconomy equation....

Hence the 'Cheat' in bikes like the CBF125..... over-gearing them.... reduces acceleration, so it takes you longer to attain a given speed... Ironically makes the bike 'slower' gearing it for a higher 'theoretcical' top speed, and without significantly doing anything to improve efficiency, makes them 'more ecconomical' SIMPLY by restricting your 'access' to the power you have available and making you spend it slower!

So, back to the story.... dropping front sproket one tooth, LOWERING the overall reduction, gives you more force at the back wheel for any given engine rpm, pr more precicely pushes the engine rpm up for any given Road-Speed hence giving double whamy of more force from lower gearing PLUS the extra force that ius normally only available at higher engine revs....

AND is likely to have brought the 'Theoretical' top speed, of the over-geared top gear down to something closer to the bikes actual real-world top speed for the power the engine makes.

Super-Dream, makes 13bhp, which is 'just' enough for a genuine 70mph. Stock Gearing however, gives something like 90mph at the engine's red-line.....

Engine had a fairly tractible power delivery and the power curve flats off at the top fairly helpfully, so theres' almost' the full quota of 13bhp 500-750rom either side of the 'peak;' at 10,500....

On stock gearing it WILL do 70mph, but its not happy getting there, and you have to thrash the nuts off it it 4th to get high enough up the power curve for the shift to 5th to let you carry on accelerating. shift too early, and you will creep slowly up to 60, and that will be about your lot, unless you get help from a hill!

Dropping 1 tooth off the front sprocket, then, brings that gap a bit closer, and you dont need to thrash it SO far in 4th before making shift to 5th, and once in 5th it will carry on pulling, and instead of topping out at 60-65ish, more readily pull under its own steam to a genuine 70.... wont go much further, and needle is nudging the red line, so its doing it on the power 'beyond' peak....

BUT it is still doing it, and WILL do it more often,

So, contrary to the 'theory' on that bike, lowering the gearing, increased BOTH acceleration AND top speed... and certainly the instances that top speed was available..... and its a more likely situation on most smaller bikes, and particularly 'ecconomy' machines...

Though be warned: on that 125 Super-Dream, lost about 5mpg for the change! There's ALWAYS a 'cost'!

that loss of economy, probably not so much from engine efficiency, making it turn higher revs for the same road speed or anything... but simply from actually letting you get at, and use more power more often, and power used = fuel needed!

Some years ago, company I was working for were going down the tubes, rapidly, but offering triple enhanced 'voluntary' redundancy packages...
The coffee machine query of the moment was "So, with two years tax free salary in the bank... WHAT would you do?"
Question sorted the men from the boys.. the boys all saw fancy new cars or back-packing adventures over outer-Mongolia, booze-binges in Bankok, or a hefty lump-sum in the bank towards a mortage after they had got another job.... the Men? Well they imagined getting stuck into large amounts of unfinished DIY, angry wives and piles of bills mounting up...
One of the recent grads, who had got all exited about the idea of two years salary in the bank and taking a belated gap-year to India, disappointing to find he didn't qualify, considered the apparent 'gloom' of the older co-workers seeming lack of imagination or adventure; only to conclude "So.. what you all mean, is.. you spend however long at Uni getting qualifications to get a good job, then forty years a slave to the Money Lenders, fretting over keeping your job or finding another, trying to keep just ahead of the money-men, so that after forty years, you have a pile of bricks to your name, just before social Services sell it to stick you in the nursing home?" We all had to agree with his appraisal of the matter!

So.... lets look at this 'ere 'Problem'.. WHAT is the problem?
that you don't have a credit rating?
that you cant afford, instantly, the motorbike of your dreams? (get used to it.. few can, even with a fantastic credit rating!)
that you're a materialistic c-word?

My bike, is twenty something years old; it aint fast, it aint pretty, it isn't particularly exiting or even valuable... but it IS mine... 100% paid for, cash. Insurance, likewise is paid upfront; so is the tax. If 'something' happened to it... I don't know, it broke down, fell over or something.. I would still have 'some'money in the bank to be able to fix it.. I wouldn't be eeking that I had to find umprty quid a month to keep up the HP installments and the Inurance payments AND have the tax coming out the bank, before hand, all for a bike that I couldn't ride..... I don't actually have anything but my house on credit, and even that, I own three times more of it than the bank does, so its cheaper than paying rent. I don't even have a contract for a mobile telephone, or a subscription TV service. I am NOT a 'Credit Slave'. and consequently, despite not actually having a particularly high income, I can still afford a reasonably affluent life-style....

Credit.. Other-People's Money.. usually costs you around 15-20% a year... so you start spending OPM, the £900 a month you earn, isn't... it rapidly becomes just £800 a month... £100 of it immediately committed to pay the interest to the shylocks..... NOT all for the sake of not being a materialistic c-word, but not being an IMPATIENT materialistic c-word...

You can still be a materialistic c-word, and have nice shiny stuff, without credit... you just have to save up a bit for it..... then, its all yours not the money mens, and that £100 a month is still in your pocket, not committed to thiers.

So.. what's the 'problem'?
Personally I don't see one.. and advice to get credit builder credit cards or start taking out contract phones and other ploys to build a credit history... not actually a solution, so much as a great way to find more 'problems'...

That's my take on the matter.... but your call. But identify what the REAL problem is before trying to solve it.

You have waited this long to get on two wheels, whats a couple more months? You don't have ANY bike right now, so even one that's not as 'exiting' as you might like, is still going to be infinitely more 'fun' than sitting on a bus? Why sell your soul to the shylocks for it?

125's are very compromised bikes; and on a learner licence, trying to squeeze even 'more' from them than what's intended; 'cheap & easy' learner-(short) commuter use, is just silly, all for the sake of exploiting loophole in law that says you can ride one without taking tests and getting full licence.

Every other motorised road user has to train up, under supervision, and pass driving tests before they are let out on thier own; 125 L-Plate regs are mere legacy of the days when, before practicable & reliable bike-to-bike radio comms, there was no way to supervise a learner, so give them small, lightweight, limited performance machine thay cant do 'too much' harm to other road users on, and let them wobble about a bit until they get the idea...

They'll get you to and from work or college, accross town, but that's about it. They CAN do 70mph, but with so little reserve, and so little weight to make them stable or comfy, its only really a capability you want to expliot 'occassionally'.

With a full licence; which OUGHT to be the intent of any-one setting out on two wheels; choice of bikes is huge; and door open to all biking has to offer, rather than frustrating yourself trying to live with self imposed 'learner' limits, trying to sqeeze a pint out of a thimble!

MOST, as soon as they have, 'Full-Licence'.... (it's NOT, but often called 'Big-Bike' licence!).... and the door to all the shiney, fast, exiting bikes that are out there is open, are USUALLY eager to go get a 'propper' bike, and exploit thier new qualification.

Not MANDATORY.... and 125's do offer a lot of advantages; they are STILL cheap; they are STILL easy to ride, and they are still small, light and nimble, etc.

As a cross town commuter; there is still a lot of sense for hanging on to one.

Practical top speed of 55mph, and dilemah of using duel-carriageways and braving tucking into the queue of trucks, or working harder taking the scenic route; it will take a lot more maintenence to keep a bike worked that hard that often in good fettle, and it will be very 'wearing' to ride like that, that much, every day.

YES: you COULD do it with a YBR or a CBF or similar, but these bikes are supposed to be 'easy to ride', and under those circumstances, used in the extremes of thier operating envelope, you loose SO much of thier virtue, it's really time to look at more suitable alternatives.

Something like 2/3 of all registered vehicles in the UK are bought on loans or credit! HOW do you think ANY-ONE trades in thier car or bike? Do you think that EVERY-ONE waits until they have paid the last installement of thier five year credit deal, before they buy a new car or bike?

If you take out an 'unsecured loan', that's exactly what it is; contract between you and the lender, you accepting liability for the principle, and agreed interest; doesn't really matter what you use it for; provided you pay it back. THAT is why it's called 'unsecured', it is not 'secured', ie: no contract exists that the lender has any claim to the actual 'property' you buy with it.

If you take out a 'Hire Purchase' scheme, or 'Secured Credit' agreement; then the LENDOR technically 'buys' the vehicle you want, and has title or cliam to title to that property. Means that if you dont make the payements, they can, more easily, reclaim the goods bought to recoup their money; hence are accepting less 'risk' of default. Meanwhile, you are in part 'renting' the goods from them, and in part, 'buying' a share of it, until at the end of the scheme, entire credit fees repayed, you own 100% of the vehicle.

On an 'unsecured loan'; there is NO problem at all; to what you do with the money you borrow, or what you spend it on. So, If you borrow, £2000 you can spend £1200 on a used YBR, and use the remaining £800 to insure it for the first year; buy your riding kit, and pay for CBT, Training & Tests. Fact that you have borrowed MORE than the value of the bike, doesn't matter to them; becouse they couldn't 're-possess' it anyway.. they would, simply take you to small claims court and get a credit injunction against you.

SO; if the loan is unsecured; YOU have legal title and clear 'ownership' of the bike, and can do what you like with it, and at ANY time, sell that bike on. Up to you whether you buy another bike with the proceeds, or get a car instead, or even a Holiday in Morocco..... provided you make the repayements.

If you buy on a 'Secured Loan' or Finance Agreement, where the 'ownership' of the bike is technically 'Shared' by you and the cridit company; its a little more tricky, BUT, they have mechanisms for this, becouse it happens every day.

The 'old fasioned' way of doing it, was that you wrote and asked thier permission to 'sell' the bike. They then sent you a letter of agreement, and a copy, to provide to the buyer; so that the resale value wasn't deminished by bike being flagged as having outstanding credit against it. Basically, they gave you permission to sell on thier behalf, and relinquished 'title' to the goods, so that they couldn't repossess the machine from the buyer. That letter would also invoke 'early termination' clauses within the original agreement, and usually, within 30 days or so of 'sale', YOU were obliged to have got the proceeds of sale of the buyer, and paid the Credit company the outstanding finance charges from it.

THIS is where the 'problem' if there is one, normally arises, as often the settlement figure, would be everything you WOULD have paid, IF you had let the agreement run to termination.

Twenty years ago, I bought Brand-New Kawasaki AR125 on Credit, and if I had sold the bike, mid term, I was liable to repay ALL the payements I would have made if I had let agreement run to termination over two years.

The bike was actually stolen four months into the agreement; Bike had cost £1400 in the show room, but interest charges took repayement total to £1700 over two years. When it was stolen, I had made four payements; £300's worth. Insurance company valued bike at 'market value' and tried to give the credit company just £1000 for the bike, leaving me, 'liable' for £400's worth of outstanding finance charges, and NO BIKE.

It had been recovered, so I got it back, and fixed it up myself, as I didn't HAVE £400 to 'settle' with instantly, as early settlement demanded, and after exposing a near 'fraud' by the insurance co & salvage firm, they actually settled for £900, with me keeping the bike, so I was able to maintain the agreement, and not loose out....

But be warned, early settlement clauses, can be pretty punative, and not just envoked when YOU want to sell the bike.

I think it took until about 145 months, that the monthly HP fees 'balenced' the bikes depreciation & interest charges, and I started to 'effectively' buy any of it.

BUT depending on the agreement, there is always a balence point, and depends on the small print where that is, and when and IF its 'worth' trading the bike in for another.

THAT... I cant really tell, you. All I can say is, its not a 'Problem' you dont HAVE to keep the bike full term of the credit agreement.... whether its ecconomical NOT to, is another matter... but then secured credit deals tend NOT to be the most ecconomical, anyway, even when they suggest really attractive ZERO % interest...... you REALLY have to check the contract carefully, and be SURE of what you are getting.

NO 125 would 'really' be up to that kind of commute. You are trying to bag far too much into ONE very limited capability motorbike.

125's have expected life of about seven years and 35,ooo miles; One that's done just 5K will be barely run in; one that's done 30K will be on its last legs!

Age, well, they are MOT exempt for three years, and CAN easily rack up 10K a year, pressed to commute like a car; and be 'fucked' before they even have to get anb MOT!

After 3 years you have some assurance that they have been tested, and any niggles sorted out.

But, condition is all. And not the shiney bits.

Ex School bikes, and many YBR's & the ilk ARE ex-School bikes; wont crank up many miles, riding around the CBT play-ground; but they WILL have thier gearboxes macshed by umpety students getting to grips with gears; thier clutch burned out, finding the balence point, and thier fork seals hammered practicing e-stops etc....

All down to how well maintained they are, as to whether that is a 'Problem'....

And ultimately, a well looked after School bike, with regular oil changes, clutch replacvements, chain adjustments etc etc, could, for all likely to show evidence of minor spill damage, be much better bike than privately owned machine, some-one has kept shiney, but never got thier hands dirty checking or lubing the drive chain, or anything.

BUT, as far as 'value' goes, that credit deal, probably 50% more than price of the bike, is where you OUGHT to be 'most' careful, and shop most carefully.

All up; for this situation, I would have to suggest, thinking long and hard about buying 125 on credit. A Personal loan would give you more flexibility, and 'bagging' all your 'wants' into one agreement...

KNOWING you are payiong over the odds for everything; DONT STINT yourself.

Go for a personal, unsecured loan, and stretch it.....

Take out enough to let you get a training course, on school bike, to avoid bother of buying 125, perhaps, or that will get you a really 'good' 125, to make training & tests easy, but give flexibility to sell on, and get more 'suitable' commuter bike, for your 40 mile trip.

JUST to give you heads up; Snowie, looking for insurance quotes, discovered that taking out a years policy on her 125 post test, will cost no less becouse she has a full licence. More, trading UP to a 500 twin, premium, for same cover, on same value bike DROPS by 30%.... that's £40 for her..... on a more expensive policy? Could be much more significant.

Taking credit, can build your credit rating; useful if in years to come, you want to take out a mortgage or anything. But, default, or have a bank 'fuckup' (I had one on bank loan I took out to buy My VF many years ago; I moved house, and so cancelled all teh standing orders on the account for 'utilities'... bludy clerke cancelled loan order too, and they 'the bank'... DOWH! who I had filled in all the Change Of adress forms, and who were sending me monthly statements on my current and savings account; ended up using a Debt collection agency, who used a detective agency to 'track me down', becouse I did NOT provide them with my new address! Idiots!) Can 'knock' your credit rating! (That one the bank who were sending me bank statements but had to get a debt collegction agencty involved to find out where I had absconded to, actually took out a CCJ against me, without my knowing it, that was a RIGHT PITA when I wanted a mortgage!)

So, pro's and cons......

£99 down and £70 a month? Hmmm.... 12 x 70 = £840, + 100 = best part of £1000, wait another six months and you would have about £1500 in your bank... NOT unfortunately, these days, earning, rather than costing you interest.... which would probably buy you, outright the 18month old bike some-one had bought this week on finance, and was effectively cashing out of.... and own it 'clear' no risk, no more payements, and be best part of £1500 up, rather than £1500 down compared to taking credit....

Financially, it doesn't make MUCH sense...... BUT.... it does make sense.

Question REALLY I would be asking is do I NEED this bike?

In my case, I had no other wheels, and needed transport; it was bike or shank's; so needs-musted..... if its a 'toy' you can live without, that merely justifies a bit of existance saving bus-fares and letting you get about, think hard, and probably say NO.

If you DO dive in though..... whats 'DEAL' will they give you on a CBR?

In for a penny, in for a quid..... which was why I went for Kawasaki's 'Sporty' AR125 at £1400 rather than thier 'commuter' KH125 at £1099...... difference on monthly payements was not that significant, and the AR, I figured, apart from being 'nicer' bike to own, at the end of the two years I took credit over, would be more saleable, for better money. Not SO true, then; more 'sensible' prople wanted KH's, but they also didn't want to pay sensible money for them, where AR, not so sensible, got terribly eager and 'less' sensible buyers eager to part with cash, of which there were far more. Same is probably MORE true of Honda CBR125..... may be worth checking out, the 'total' cost of ownership and comparing two year old second hand prices to see which will more readily sell, and give least depreciation.

BUT.... parental 'cointersignature'..... talk to parents.... DO they want to do that for you? Would THEY lend you 'cash' instead; say £1500 to get second hand bike 'now'; and you pay them back at rate of £70 a month? ZERO interest as far as you are concerned, and less risk on THEM that they'll start having balifs turn up on teh door or THEIR credit rating hammered if you loose your job, or 'something'?

ALWAYS a tough cookie, and finance ALWAYS looks better than it is; but its a necessary evil, and we have to learn to cope with it and use it wisely.... Talk to parents, try and see if you can make it work for you, and could be worth the doing..... if not, other ways to skin a cat.... and ultimately, you could get a second hand Chinese bike in a Box under your bum, for less than down payement and a couple of installements..... not nice biking, but third class biking beats first class walking, and if you dont NEED it as dependable transport, but lets you go play, just the same, better, leaves you cash in hand each month to go do training and tests, possibly even on a school bike, if the chinky thing or old Jap 'classic' is too embarassing.... to get your licence before they change riules and you cant do tests on a 125 except for permenant 125 licence..... could all be good, and better way to go........ rather than a high cost and fancy 125 you are paying MAINLY for the privilidge of being new, and subsidising future owners, NOT using it THAT much, as a 'toy' bike, paying all the credit and depreciation on it for three years, shorting yourself on cash to do training and tests...... so repeat CBTing until its paid for, THEN realising in three years you cant take a test on it, and you are too young to do DAS and get a full licence anyway, and are pretty much 'stuck' with the thing...

OR you change jobs, or get laid off, or or or.....

We cant tell you what to do, its your life, your credit / money, you are pledging.... YOU have to weigh up whether its worth it TO YOU.... but think long and hard, thats all we can ddo, give you food for thought.

You simply fantacise what it might be like..... believe me, things are ALWAYS better in fantacies.....

Your not quite so pretty girlfreind, who grumbles you never talk to her, while cutting you off mid sentence to answer a meaningless txt from her best mate, that grumbles you never do anything together, when you spent ALL saturday with her shopping for shoes, and being 'educated' that actually there IS a difference between 'burgandy' and 'Dark Red', and who complains "Not Now! My Parents are Upstairs"..... is, in a Fantacy, a drop dead gorgeouse, completely undemanding nymphette......

Bikes are not much different.

Look great in the magazines; you watchj the films and they take your breath away, and you think 'I GOTTA get me one of them!"

When you do.... like a girlfreind... gives you a few odd moments of shear extacy..... few moments that it makes you smile..... a lot of the time you don't think about it much at all..... and then you have the 'reality' when it wont start in the morning, or it needs new tyres, or the indicators are playing up.... and you REALLY know that this shit doesn't happen in the movies, apart from comedy farces, where curiously its actually 'funny'......

So stick with the bus, and enjoy the fantacies a little longer.....

£70 a month JUST what it would cost you for a bike, at £350 PA, TPO, insurance is going to be at LEAST £30 a month, on a £2.5K brand new bike, Fully Comp to cover the risk of it being dropped or nicked..... at LEAST double that......

So, sat the bus, enjoying your fantacies.... you are saving MINIMUM £100 per month for the small inconvenience of a bus being late.

I KNOW busses are a nightmare; when I was a kid, (NO, you BASTARDS! They WEREN'T drawn by fucking HORSES! Laughing ) Lived in rural district; catchment area for my school 30miles accross; getting about was a right pain in the arse, relying on rare, inconvenient public transport, lifts or shanks' pony. BUT amazing how we got about... and quite remarkeable how far you can get on a humble push bike.......

Maybe your first 'month' HP=Equivilency; you could buy a push bike? Got one already? Then your sorted, aren't you?

Six months; you said you weren't so keen on the foul weather idea...... £600..... come March, with THAT money in your pocket, and whatever 18th Birthday brings... THEN go check out the options again.

If nothing else, you have a bigger deposit to stick down on a bike on finance, and will have shown your Mum & Dad, and proved to yourself, you can meet the payements..... more still, bigger deposit means you'll be ahead on the payements game, and might get a better deal.

OR close enough on, being able to get 2nd hand bike.

Though; with 3rd Directive licence laws coming up to hammer younger riders; PERSONALLY.... I'd be thinking about getting that licence cracked.

Ride the bus, use push-bike; use 'motorbike-money' to book and take Theory/hazard test; get that one under your belt; then do some rider training on School bike, like you did your CBT, each month, for the 'Riding Feeling', and if you CAN book tests on School bike, and get THEM out of the way ASAP.....

You're looking at about £500 for a rider training course, on school bike.... so you could have that DONE and dusted by April next year, and not be restricted to a 125 by licence.

And over 18, credit agreement / bank loan, whether in your name or counter signed with or without help from parents; you COULD go looking for a 2nd hand bike on credit...... dont HAVE to buy new.... and with a licence, dont HAVE to be a mere 125.....

Hows THAT effect the fantacy.......

Sat on the bus fantacising pottering down the lanes on a CBF125.... of blasting down them on a GS500 or DRZ450, or something?

Sod it... fantacy... you can make it a bludy Super-Blackbird if you want.... but imminently, you could make 500 reality.... IF you are kanny about the way you go about it.

I think; committing yourself to a credit deal; all up; is a lot of risk; and biggest is, even if nothing elce goes tits up, you'll be struggling so much JUST to keep up the payements on the bike, AND the Insurance, you wont do training or tests... you wont even THINK about them until about four months before your CBT is about to expire..... and you'll be kicking yourself you've missed opportunity to get licence on 125, and can only get a 125 licence on your CBF, or will have to struggle even HARDER to find the money to do training and tests DAS style on a 500 to only get 'half' a licence, that keeps you ON a 500, not just two years but until you have held 500 licence two years or turn 24, and do test AGAIN, and again, expensive DAS style.......

LITTLE bit of patience up front; Maybe taking a chance on a 2nd hand Chinese-Fake-Away... 'Just' to get you in the saddle.... even if you have to chuck it in a skip in a years time....... £300 for a Chinky bike you chuck away is a LOT less than the £1000, £100 Down and twelve £70's would be to STILL not own a CBF, that you'd be in negitive equity with and would probably have to find best part of £500 to pay off credit agreement, on top of 2nd hand price of bike.....

BUT... SOME-ONE has to buy 'New' 125's or there wouldn't be any second hand ones out there for any-one elce......

And there is the old addage, fool and his money are soon parted....

Ultimately your call..... BUT I think every-one is saying, that JUST becouse it gives 'instant' gratification, the long term cost is a lot more than 'just' the high buy price & credit charges.......

SIX MONTHS.....

Do a reverse cooling of period; its winter, and horrible biking weather coming up anyway; use it; save the aproximate payements; prove you can afford it, stick some dosh in the bank; if you dont do traing with it; or use it to stick bigger deposit down to shorten payement period, or lower pmonthlies; there to pay for training & tests, and not squeeze you SO much the bike is a burden not a joy IF you still go new on credit.

My suggestion, but you have to go with what you think is best.

MY opinion of 125's in general is they are a utility tool; either to get your tests 'done' on, or simply to get about on cheaper than a bus fare. In either case, asthetics are hardly something worth worrying about; if you want tests; you want easy ride, look after you learner bike, that's cheap and easy to live with, and easy to flog on to fund big bike when you are done; while if you just want cheap wheels; CHEAP is the only thing worth worrying about.

So I'm wondering if I'me merely going to get another tirade of abuse as Rog or computid, for even TRYING to point out the merit of my wisdom......

I'll try anyway.....

Told you purpose of a 125; its a tool; either a training tool to get tests, or rudimentary bus-fare beating ecconomy travel.

The Learner Licence is just that, a LEARNER licence, fact you can ride a 125 unsupervised on the public roads without passing a test is a priovilidge and a 'loop-hole' of legacy legislation, from the days before practical radio supervision was possible..

Yeah, you can exploit it, and RIDE around on an over priced flash fairinged or over chromed tiddler, perpetually repeating CBT's as long as the loophole remains (which may not be much longer TBH, but thats another topic I'll come to in a minute)

Doesn't really matter how asthetically pleasing a 125 may be; slap a ruddy great L-Plate front and back to comply with your licence, rather spoils the 'look'.

You could have a sit up and bag, YBR commuter, an over chromed Honda Shaddow, 'cruiser', a Suzuki DR125 'Off-Roader', or Honda Veradaro 'Adventure Sport', or an Aprillia RS4 plastic fantastic.....

All mimic the style if the 'big-boy-bikes' and some, physically large, pull it off quite well..... until the engine's started and it sounds about as 'meaty' as a half eaten packet of beef flavoured crisps..... and goes about as fast!

And, being brutally honest, any-one looking at you on one, well, few will be all that 'impressed'. Might impress the odd school kid not old enough to have ANY bike, and the occassional person without much knowledge of bikes that thinks it looks quite cool..... BUT any-one that actually KNOWS anything about bikes.... well, they aren't going to be 'fooled' and will know exactly what they are looking at, ESPECIALLY if facts advertised by that ruddy L-Plate.

So; who looks coolest; lad on a £1,500 YBR125, or one on £4K YZF-R125?

Niether, they BOTH look like Learner-Tits.

Only the lad on the YBR, looks like he might have a few good ideas, and has picked a useful little bike, that's easy to ride, and 'sensible' that is more likely to impress an examiner, and has a lot going for it, being cheap to buy, insure and run, and not a huge liability to repair or write off if he dumps it, which as a learner, is inordinately likely, and as like as not, lad might be quite smart, and for the sake of a bit of style, using savings to pay for training & tests, getting out and about and enjoying life, and saving up to put money into a bike that not just looks good, but goes great, when he's got his licence.....

Lad on YZF-R125, looks like a social inadequete, you expect will have a bad case of acne hidden under his hat, who hopes, committing to a three year finance deal on a horendousely expensive motorcycle, that looks like something its not, will make him look good, and increase his social standing.... ie a misguided poser.... as likely to smash bike to bits very early, making it look even more laughable, and leaving him with huge credit agreement to settle, a big repair bill, and no money, to do anything else, like go out, have fun, or heaven forbid, get licence and get big bike... while being laughed at even more by his peers, first for being a bit of a tit, second proving it, buying an R125 to massage his misguided ego, then skuffing up its good looks, and being stuck on skuffed, slow, joke of a bike......

Yeah, they look great in teh show-room.... but sorry, bottom line is that they ARE a joke to ANY-ONE that has ANY idea about bikes.

So, whats the best looking and fastest four stroke 125?

YBR125.... ugly as sin, asthetically, but the numbers that say they are cheap to buy and the fastest way to a full licence to get anything even remotely inspiring makes them one of the most attractive learner bikes on the market.....

THINK about it!

Now, back to that loop-hole of unsupervised riding ahead of passing tests, on L-Plates.

Legacy provision was made so learners could practice while learning to ride, same as car drivers, who have to have a qualified passenger thats not possible when carrying a pillion isn't permitted on a motorcycle provisional..... Its NEVER been there so you can prat about to your hearts content on L-Plates never manning up to taking tests for a full licence.

As from January 2013, barely fourteen months away, we, in the UK have to satisfy European Treaty Legislation, and comply with the Euro-Licence harmonisation laws.

This specifically DENIES unsupervised riding prior to qualification... Ie riding on L's.

Terst requirements significantly call for DAS style training under radio supervision, and its likely that THAT is what will HAVE to happen... we have 'assuranmces' that unsupervised L-Plating MAY be permitted in the UK, but how that can be rationalised against EU Legislation remains to be seen, and cant be relied on.

Meanwhile, "3rd Directive" laws will mean you cant 'test' on a 125 for more than a 125 only licence. You will also have to be over 24 to do DAS to get full unrestricted licence, while the 33bhp 'restricted' licence will be replaced with the A2 licence, which you will have to be 19 to apply for, demand expensive DAS style training (unlikely to be widely available!) & test on a 500, and limit you 'for ever' or at least two years when you might repeat test DAS style on bigger bike for full A group.

Ie its going to get hard, and its going to get expensive to get a licence, in 14 months time......

Might not exactly be easy right now, BUT..... you can currently test on a 'qualifying' 125 and get full A group licence and never have to do it again..... AND do it at 17 years old..... true, may be restricted to 33bhp for two years, but that's a small impediment compared to whats in the pipe line.

Makes that YBR as a cheap, conmvenient route to a full licence and something as stylish as a GPZ500S rather MORE attractive..... or at least in my eyes.

Meanwhile, answer to your question, 'best' learner legal four stroke 125 ever built, is the Honda CB125 'Super-Dream'.... its one of the more powerful, and designed to go head to head on performance against its two stroke rivals, in its day, and succeeded. But, concervatively styled, looks 'smart' (if in tidy condition) if not 'fancy', and has an engine thats silky smooth (if in decent fettle), the best of both worlds with four stroke tractability and mid range, as well as howling two-stroke style power up top, revved to 12,000rpm. Creditable handling, curtecy of sophisticated multi-link suspension, still more advanced than most contemprary 'sports' 125's two stroke or four stroke, great brakes, curtecy of again, more sophisticated tham most, twin pistoin caliper front disc, comfy, curtecy of propper seat and seating possition, that more upright, also provides great around visbility and good machine control..... while lack of fancy or unnecessary plastic or chrome, means theres little adornment to skuff, break, rust or clean!

As far as I'm concerned, it was pretty close to being the 'perfect' learner bike.... but, I suspect, despite being the answer to the question you actually asked, like all else so far, WONG, by dint of not being what you want to hear.....

Well..... ponder a short while...... so much in whats been offered that by your standards is 'wrong'.... what do you think is at odds here?

Is it us, with, between us many, many years experience of bikes and biking, and whats good, bad, or plain daft....

Or the standards you are judging our advice by, based on what you think, 'looks' good?

In 1980 the CB250N Super-Dream 'Deluxe' (it had a red sgo faster stripe and a 'spoiler' moulded into the tail-lamp cowl!) was listed at £999. Mochek Honda in london, then biggest honda dealers, offered them in MCN, on finance, I recall, "All you need for under £10 a week" £99 down and something like £30 a month on the knock, leaving enough for couple of gallons of go-juice that had just nudged the quid a gallon mark, ISTR.
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PostPosted: 01:15 - 22 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

In 1982..... when the 125 learner laws came along.... same bike was virtually worthless; five year old 250N's were given away three for the price of one... only people that wanted them were severely strapped poverty commuters, who picked the best to use and used the others to keep it going, with the unfortunatel conclusion that often the bits that you needed were the bits that were already broken on the 'donors'.

400's were few and far between. They weren't a cheap bike, I think they listed at almost 50% more in the Honda catalogue than the 250, and were not half as much more bike for the money. I believe that the far more popular and reliable CX500 was actually a tad cheaper, if you didn't want to get anywhere in a hurry.... and if you did? You didn;t buy a Honda 500! (or 550!)

Shed loads of suposed 400N's have turned out to be 250's dressed up-with twin discs, and occassionally 400 barels. Nore genuine 400's eneded up with 250 lumps banged in them as get-me-by poverty repairs, and the whole LOT, living in the world of baked bean-tin and gaffer tape bodges for over three dacades, NOT a great place to go looking for every-day useable 'decent' motorcycles.

There are some nice ones out there, and I was ahgast ten years ago to see a 250 Super-Dream command a price greater than its original list price.... supposedly 'Restored'. Properly and contientiousely done? Yes I can see that it might cost some-one that kind of money to do; in fact a lot more. So realistically, its either a real bargain, or a shit-heap in a fancy paint-job.... but either way, not really what I'd want as a practical every day road-bike; quickly loosing its appeal as a 'classic' from the patina of use, or not working at all as that shineyness wears off to reveal its decentness is only skin deep.

What's reasonable?

Well, if it runs, has Tax & test on it, and isn;t too obviousely or badly bodged; as baked bean budget get-to-work wheels, its worth £300, and chuck it away and get another when it breaks.

If its fairly tidy and looks like it will last a year without too much work, maybe £500 - £700

Anything more than that, and it's going to have to be pretty special, and got a lot of providence, been very well renovated or restored, and or be very original.

For a collectors special, that isn't a mish-mash of bits from different model years, or even models; so the paint job is correct for year; body-work is correct to model; wheels are the right ones; engine the right colour and it still has all the correct cheese head Japanese standard crossheads on the generator cover etc..... real Super-Dream anorack, might hope for a couple of grand or more for it. More if its a genuine original UK reg 400, not a grey import from the US or Germany.

So between the 'Well its got two wheels and an engine and it moves' bargain basement specials up to the £700 mark, up to the Silly-Money show-specials, you have a mine-field of bikes in varying conditions, mechanically or cosmetically, with varying degrees of originality or authenticity.

£900 ought to get you something 'Decent', by my sense of asthetics, but big risk that its more likely to be a cosmetically tidied scrapper, than a mechanical gem with scruffy paint.

They haven't made one of these things for 30 odd years, so its in the lap of really; this is the old-bike / no its a classic mine-field.

For poverty spec wheels, I;d not be looking at them. I'd be looking at later CB two-fifty's, or CD200 benleys, if I could snaffle one, a CB250RS single.

For under-a-grand every day commuter bike; I;d be looking at the more contemprary 500 twins; CB500, ER5, GPz500, GS500, and if needs be restricting one. Easy enough to do; and they are more plentiful, so more chance of finding a better one; still in the parts listings, and with less parts marked 'obsolete', so easier to keep running and generally live with.

For a classic? Spending a silly amount of money on an old high maintenance machine that needs lots and lots of loving attention?

I would not spend £2K+ on a 'boring' Super-Dream; I'd spend it on something slightly more 'interesting'.... and pretty open book on what that might be.... but even an XS650 would be more appealing, if not significantly cheaper!

Negative Equity.. owing more against something, than it is worth.
You buy brand new bike, for say £4000. You 'owe; £4000 + the full interest over repayment period; for 2 yrs @ 20% that might be £1200.
So, before you begin, you owe, £5200 against something that costs, only £4000... and the moment you wheel it out the door... its not a new bike.. it's second hand... and worth maybe £3000... So you have a £3000 motorcycle, and owe £2,200 MORE than its worth..
Think about this... 1) You decide you don't like it and want something different, wheel it back into the dealers.... they give you 'trade in value' for the bike, and instantly you are liable to settle the finance, and have to find the entire £2,200 to cover the 'negative equity'.
2) Bike gets stolen... insurance co pay the market value of the bike... £3,000... not to YOU, but to the HP co... you no longer own the bike, YOU have to settle the outstanding finance, and find £2,200 straight away.. or make arrangements... you could be paying for a bike some fucktard thief is having fun on for another YEAR...
3)The bike gets damaged... by YOU... you fall off it.... you have fully comp insurance... makes sense, anything happens to the bike, they pay repairs, regardless who's to blame. Did you know, that a Yamaha YZF-R125, can be 'written off' by an insurance company as a 'total loss' for merely falling off the center stand? Well it can. Genuine Yamaha prices for those fancy sporty fairing panels are pretty exhorbitant; and insurance company would assess damage by bits that need replacing; not bodging it back together with gaffer tape and a bit of paint... also, a nearly new YZF-R125 is almost worth as much 'scrap' for the parts in it that can be sold for spares, as it is as a whole bike on the high-street; SO they are very likely to write one off, for any claim, 'total-loss'; and when they do, bike becomes thier proprty, and they pay your finance co the market value, less policy excess, and leave you instantly liable to make up the difference... or make arrangement to carry on paying till its cleared; leaving you bike-less, but still paying for bike you don't have.

For approximately 2/3 of any finance agreement, you are likely to be in this 'Negative Equity' Trap; owing more than you own, making payments that are constantly behind the interest and depreciation on the bike. And for that entire period... any crap happens, you can be stuffed with a big bill, and have to find that cash you didn't have in the first-place, or keep paying for something you no longer have or can make use of.

Think long and hard about this. I was always told; if you cant afford to buy something 'cash' then you cant afford to buy it on credit.

But it's 'risk'... could all go well for you, but even so, in two years time, after spending maybe £5-5,500 in list price and credit charges for a £4000 bike... have something worth less than half that left at the end.... thats a LOT of money, JUST to have something new and flash....

Think on this... brand new YBR125 is only £2400 in the show-room... has as much functional value; its practically as fast... it'll do everything any other 125 might, pretty much... and the sort of money you are talking about is like walking into a dealers, buying one of THEM brand new, and chucking it away in two years time....

When in fact, it would still probably be worth around £12-14,00, and in the time you'd have owned it probably cost you a damn site less in insurance and general running costs;

Also a little less likely to get stolen... 125's are VERY high risk, 'fancy' ones, even more desirable to tea-leaves, because they can pose about on them, and plenty of suckers who cant afford to run them, wont ask questions when they need bits to fix crash damage.

Also less likely to risk write off for minor cosmetic damage, like falling off the side stand; there's less to break, and what there is tends not to be so expensive.

Its a LOT less risk, EVEN if you bought one of them on credit... but you are still talking about spending a HELL of a lot of money, you dont have, (or you wouldn't be thinking of financing!) on a bike you cant really afford, to get? Well.. infantesimile insignificant performance advantage and a lot of very questionable 'style' cudos.

Like I said... over two years, even if all goes well, those 'small' pluses will have cost you the same as buying a brand new YBR125 and throwing it away.

Think... think LONG and think HARD about this. Its NOT as easy as it sounds and its the hidden risks and pitfalls that are likely to come back and bite you in the bum.... HARD.

Well change THAT plan for starters.

Riding on L's a a privilege, a concession of legacy legislation from days when only way a learner could learn was siding on their own. Every other road user has to prove they are competent enough to ride before they are allowed out on thier own in a motor vehicle, YET its incredible, motorcycles statistically THE most dangerouse form of motorised transport are the only one we let utter numpties out on with the scantiest of training or preparation. and as a 17 year old, on L's on a 125, YOU are one of THE most likely to get hurt, and badly.

You can break almost all UK speed limits on a 125; only one that might be a bit of a challenge for some is the duel-carriageway limit of 70mph, but many can still top it, even 'restricted' ones. Meanwhile, MOST motorcycle accidents DONT actually happen at speed or on higher speed limit roads. MOST happen on 20, 30 & 40mph 'restricted' urban roads.

Tiddlers ENT 'Toys', and being little don't bean you cant still get hurt big on them. You face pretty much the same risks on a 125 as you do on ANY other motorcycle.. and the biggest one is probably YOU.

Young riders (and drivers) under 25 years old are the most likely to crash. L-platers even more so; BOYS more still. Three hits YOU qualify on all three counts, statistically, to very soon become one.

You cant do fuck all about getting old.... I wish we could... believe me!

You PROBABLY don't want to do anything that might be surgically be possible about being a boy....

Which leaves what? what is the ONE thing you can do something about to get yourself out of that most at risk group?

Yup GET A FUCKING LICENCE.

And it ENT hard. If you are planning on riding a bike as main transport every day, you will either be hurt... or doing 99% of what's needed to pass tests every day.

Theory? Mod 1 & Mod 2, self booked, and done on the 125 you intend to buy ANYWAY, cost just £121.50... pretty much what a repeat CBT does.... and you would have to re-do that to carry on riding when yours expires, or to step up top do A2 licence training, when you would still have Theory to get sorted... so, even cheaper... £90 ish.

AT the beginning, get the licence; its a perpetual CBT cert, and RATHER than having the months ebb away on your CBT cert you have months counting down on the New Driver Act 2 year probation, when they will take your licence off you for just 6 penalty points... (and they can wallop you with two just for loosing an L-Plate, you know?), rip it up and make you start over... and be spending them two years on a bike, of lesser performance, without L's less likely to encourage or help you get into situations that might get you them points.

Being able to carry pillions and use motorways, may be small advantages, but nice to know you can, even if you don't.

Then IF you want to step up to an A2 licence; you have a clear shot; you wont have to repeat CBT before you start, nor worry about getting your theory cert; you can book some training and get straight on with it; AND, having actually done the tests once, they are exactly the same tests, just done on a different sized bike... you ought to have plenty of confidence having spent an afternoon or two getting used to weight and power of a bigger bike; you can go do them again, and get 1st time pass.

SO; its ALL win. Costs fuck all to get a licence and ditch the L's. Gets you one step out of the danger zone... might not be far, but you don't have to out-run the lion, just the guy next to you... and showing the 'sense' its likely to carry on taking you further from the Danger-Zone. Gets your NDA probation gone. Gives you the opportunity to use motorways or carry pillons. And sets you up, for bigger things later, with potential savings and the most important thing CONFIDENCE all the way.

Put getting the licence first, NOT the bike. Licences are for life. Bikes never last.

A three year credit deal; remember the neg-equity trap; you sign up for that, and in all liklihood, in two years, when old enough to do A2, being on L's and having a 125 on finance are both likely to hold you back.

Being on L's will mean you have to go repeat CBT and get the theory sorted before you can begin; plus find money for lessons, and bike hire and tests... meanwhile; your 125 wont be able to help you much, it'll have done pretty much all it can... and you wont be able to easily sell on, with a years finance left to pay... it's likely at that point you will only 'just' be at the breakpoint that the bike might be worth as much as the outstanding credit, so at best, be able to cash out quits.

If you sold on, after settling the credit, you would probably not have much cash back, if any, either to put towards training for A2 licence, or a bigger A2 bike... so you would effectively be back to where you are at now... no bike, little money, and needing to find big money to do anything. And that is IF all goes well, given the risks of bike getting crashed or nicked, or reclaimed by credit co if 'something' happens and you cant keep up payements.

So, IS credit REALLY such a good idea?

And if it's devil and the deep, and the ONLY way to get a bike... is stretching the credit THAT far to get a 'posey' one, with much more risk attached, such a good idea?

YBR125, is almost half the cost and less than half the risk... to do practically the same job.... is that a better idea?

Half the cost again; second hand YBR or similar, is £1200-1400... we are now down to the sort of money that could be found cash, more readily... and if it DOES go completely pear shaped... writing that off, is less than the cost of turning brand new £4K bike into second hand one worth £3, wheeling it through the showroom doors... THAT is the instant 'dead money' you are chucking away, buying new.

And at 17, you aren't old enough to take out finance; legally you would have to have some-one over 18 with a credit rating counter-sign the credit agreement, if not take it out in their name for you.

Ie you are going to have to ask some-one else to borrow the money to buy this bike for you.... do they have a credit card? 'cos that same person could probably get £1200 'increase' in thier credit card limit as easily as they could an HP deal on a bike... and with a little money shuffling, buying everything on thier credit card for a month or six weeks, instead off on the debit card, loan you CASH the price of 2nd hand YBR... and you then have much smaller loan, much less risk, and a lot more 'flexibility'... finance ISN'T fucking flexible, its a ruddy millstone...

And at 17 years old, 3 years is like, FOREVER.. it's actually 17% of your life thus far... probably longer than you have had an interest in bikes, so far. A LOT can happen in 3 years, and you are gambling a LOT of money on it, probably without even realising.

But, all questions WE cant answer... up to you to work out what is right for you...just make your decission an informed one, and check out all options, and read the fucking small-print.... it's rarely buy now, pay later; they catch you in the heat of the moment, you buy now and pay-for-fucking-ever!

Yet another 'How To' is a bit specific to the Honda CB125 'Twin', that probably applies to most of the other 'Benley' series engined bikes as well. But also applies to a number of other 'small' Hondas using the same clutch arrangement. So, the CB100N & CB125S & RS singles, and the CG125, and all its derivatives, the XR125, City Fly, and all the Chinese 'clones'.

Clutches on small geared bikes tend to work hard for a living. Without much power to play with, gearboxes have to be worked hard, which means lots of clutch work. worse, when the small bike is a Learner Legal, and the owners are getting to grips with clutch control! This tends to wear the clutch plates rather thin, with lots of clutch slipping practice finding the biting point , and plenty of time spent holding the bike on the clutch, the springs compressed, hunting for neutral!

When they wear, they get difficult to adjust and you can find that it can 'drag' with the clutch lever fully in, but when you are riding, it can actually slip. On 'derelict' bikes that have stood, also common for the clutch to seize, the plates corroding together or silting up. But in either instance, its an often neglected assembly, that can frequently benefit from this simple, and relatively cheap bit of overhauling.

There is only one significant 'hassle' to the job, and that is that the clutch assembly is held on with a recessed castellated nut, which needs a special socket or spanner to undo and do back up. The Haynes manual provides instructions on how to make your own, so we did, from an old 3/4 socket, cracked ruing a Land Rover cylinder head removal, using an angle grinder!

Anyway, THESE are the bits inside the drum, that we are going to replace, the clutch friction plates, and the clutch springs.

Chinese, e-bay specials, this is less than £20 worth of parts.



To fit them, we need to drain the oil, and remove the primary drive gasket. So you need to add a couple of litres of oil, perhaps £6's worth, and a gasket, we made out of an old cerial packet, in time honoured fasion! (see The Cornflake Packet Gasket Trick!)

Since the oil had to be drained and the primary drive cover removed, we took the oportunity to also clean the oil strainer, as described in HOW To: (Honda CB/CD/CM 125/200 'Benley' Series Engine) Oil Strainer Clean, and for the most part much of the job is the same.

Step 1 (as Oil & strainer)

Locate and identify the Sump Drain Plug. It is on the right hand side of the engine. If you find the Generator Rotor nut cover, the round slotted one in the middle, (missing in this photo!) and go directly down, it is recessed just ahead of an beneath the Engine Number boss, in front of the gear shift assembly.



Start and warm the engine, if possible. Warm oil is more runny than cold oil, so if you get the engine warm before changing the oil, more of it will come out, more easily. Once warm, be careful of hot exhausts and 'stuff', and turn the engine off before going any further! Often worth removing the battery lead, so you cant accidentally turn the engine over with no oil in it.

But, now you can put plastic washing up bowl, or you preferred container under the sump plug. Undo the sump plug, trying not to drop it in the container, and as it comes out, in a gush, get oil everywhere but in the container!



Sometimes helps if you can tilt the bike a little when its coming towards the end of draining. If you have a side stand you can prop it on that. If not, just tilt the bike, it wont take long to drain, there's not that much oil in there.



When the oil has cooled down.... you can undertake the oil change ritual of fishing for the sump plug in the ice cream tub!



REPLACE SUMP PLUG. it saves it getting lost and answering stupid questions later.... like "Why's it taking so much oil to fill it up?" and "Oh!? I seem to have an oil leak, where's that coming from?" Before you put two and two together, and remember, you forgot to put the plug back in!

And dispose of old engine oil in an environmentally friendly manner. Here its being tipped into an empty oil can, where it will be disposed of in an environmentally friendly manner, mixed with a little old stale petrol or something, and probably used to environmentally dispose of ants nests in the garden. You may prefer to simply take it to the local tip, and put it in one of their big reclamation tanks!





Step 2 (as Oil & strainer)



On the other side of the engine, we have one casing, covering the oil pump and primary drive. You will need to disconnect the Tachometer Drive, and the clutch cable. Then you can undo the bolts around the flange of the casing to remove it.



Step 3 - 'Doing' The Clutch



Inside the primary drive case is the clutch release shaft. On this shaft is the release arm, which pushes the release pin, poking out of the middle of the clutch. DO NOT try and press this pin in with your hands, or worse hit it with a hammer! I had a comment on a forum from a lad the other day with clutch troubles and that was what he had done, commenting that it didn't seem to move! No it wont! Its pressing against four big springs, and you wont easily move it, but hitting it with a hammer can easily bend it!

Sensibly, inspect the release arm and shaft as indicated here for any signs of damage or wear, and make sure that the lever is secure on the shaft.



Then remove the release pin.



Now the four spring cage retaining bolts can be slackened off with a 10mm spanner or socket. It's important to undo them evenly, each half a turn or so, going round opposites until they are undone. There will possibly still be some pressure on the springs when the screws are completely undone, so be careful they don't 'ping' on you. It may be necessary to hold the clutch drum to stop it turning with teh spanner. Easiest way to do this is to put the bike into a high gear and hold the rear brake pedal down.



with the bolts removed, the entire cage can carefully be lifted away from the springs. The centre of the cage contains a bearing and the release pin sleeve.



The springs can now be removed. Note how much shorter the 'old' spring on the left is compared to the 'new' spring on the right. This is how much the spring has 'relaxed' through being under constant tension. a spring this relaxed is unlikely to provide the clamping force to hold the friction plates tightly together to transmit drive, especially if the plates are old worn and thin as well.

Step 4 - 'Doing' The Clutch

This is NOT how the Haynes manual suggests the clutch pack be removed. It suggests that you remove the release pin sleeve and bearing, then use the special castellated spanner to undo the clutch shaft nut, and withdraw the entire clutch basket as a single assembly. However, we didn't have a castellated nut spanner, and we needed to get AT the nut to work out how to make one!



Here it is between the four springs. Curiouse little blighter ent it? this is what the Haynes Manual suggests:



"This tool is available as Honda Service tool, 07716-0020100. If this is not available, fabricate a suitable tool from a length of thick walled tubing. Refer to the accompanying illustration for details, cutting away the segments shown with a hacksaw to leave four tangs."

Thick walled tube of the right diameter was unfortunately in short supply, and experience following similar instructions has crafted a beautiful tool in mild steel that instantly mangles on use. Scratching around the 'strange tools' box found a peg spanner for an angle grinder that was 'close' but didn't really fit, giving ride to the idea of drilling a bit of plate, and bolting through to make a four peg, peg spanner to fit the slots. However experience of similar ventures suggested not. So an adaptation of the Haynes suggestion was executed. It wasn't PRETTY but it worked!



A 3/4" socket, (previously featured in these pages! It was split, trying to undo the cylinder head bolts on Wheezil the Diesel's engine!) in the 'junk' tools box, was found to be just the right diameter, and a close approximation to a 'thick wall tube', with a convenient 1/2" socket drive to fit onto a breaker bar in it. It is also (laughable quality, but still better than mild!) hardened tool steel. which was promising, but did mean that it would defy attempts at cutting it with a hacksaw. However, I own an angry grinder. And it that dont work, a BIGGER angry grinder!

I marked roughly where metal needed to be removed, then set to with the cutting disc, roughing out the shape then, more carefully working each tank in turn until it fitted.



I told you it wasn't pretty, but look, it worked, and any tool that does the job, is a good tool!



So, with improvised tool 07716-0020100 on the end of trusty breaker bar, the engine in gear, and the rear brake held down hard.... the castle nut was stormed!

Step 5 - 'Doing' The Clutch



With the Castle Nut loosened, it could be removed by hand, followed by the washers.



The Clutch 'Pack' will then slide out of the basket off the shaft.



And can be taken apart to fit the new friction plates



The Clutch pack constitutes the hub, five 'friction' plates that tank into the clutch basket on the outside, four plain plates that go between each of the friction plates, splined onto the hub, and the 'master plate' on the end.



With the 'Pack' disassembled, the old friction plates can be removed, and the new ones fitted. It's advised that the new plates are allowed to soak in clean engine oil, over night before use.



Fist friction plate is fitted and bears on baking plate of drum. Plain plate, splined on hub fits next, with another friction plate on top, alternating until you run out of both plain plates and friction plates, and can fit the master plate on the last (5th) friction plate to complete the stack.



Clutch pack reassembled, and the old friction plates can be junked

Step 6 - 'Doing' The Clutch



And the pack reassembled into the basket



We reassembled the same way we disassembled it. Without the springs or release cage fitted. They Haynes provides that the pack be completely assembled with the springs and cage before fitting. this holds the pack together and prevents the master plate falling off the splines on the hub, while fitting into the basket. But that hampers access to the caste nut with our improvised tool 07716-0020100. It does however make refitting the pack something of a faff as that master plate WILL keep falling off the spines, and when it does, you have to take it all apart again to get it back on, or the clutch just wont work! You have been warned! But, making life hard for ourselves.....



Pack fitted to basket, castle nut can be refitted, same way it was removed with improvised tool 07716-0020100, and holding the transmission locked on the rear brake.



And the NEW clutch springs can be fitted. They are longer and stronger than the relaxed old ones taken out, so they will take a bit more force to compress into place.



Release basket can be screwed over the springs, again, carefully compressing the springs evenly working around the four bolts tightening opposites about half a turn a time, so that the basket is clamped up 'square' on the springs.



Release pin sleeve and bearing fitted squarely in the release basket, the clutch is fitted, ready for the cover to go back on.

As Haynes method, the release basket and springs would be fitted to the pack before putting the pack into the clutch basket. The clutch shaft washers and castle nut, would be fitted through the release bearing housing, and tightened up through the same hole. This can make assembly a LOT easier, but only if you can get your improvised tool THROUGH the clutch release bearing housing! If not, then this can work, but you have to be careful to keep the plate pack together while fitting, and expect to have to 'jiggle' it a few times to be sure it works.

If you HAVE used this method, its worth trial fitting the primary drive cover, before fitting gaskets and filling with oil or anything, and checking that the clutch is operating properly, in case you have to strip it back and jiggle the plate pack again!



Step 7 (as Oil & strainer)

Before putting everything back together, the casing faces need cleaning up to remove all the old gasket material, before they can be put back on.



A lot of the old gasket may simply tear off by hand, but more stubborn bits will probably need carefully scraping. Care needs to be taken not to damage the gasket faces. A carpentry chisel can make a good scraper, as they are often wider and stiffer than Stanley blades, which can often gauge and scratch the soft aluminium.



Both the crank cases And the faces of the primary drive cover have to be cleaned. The sump could do with a bit of a wipe out with tissue, and something soft and pokie, like a lollipop stick to get any gloop or debris out, incase you have dropped any old gasket material in there while scraping. Then a new gasket may be fitted, and the primary drive cover put back on..



DO NOT USE ANY KIND OF GLOOP!

Silicone sealant, hylomar, RTV, 'Squeezee Gasket' are NOT a good idea here, instead of a paper gasket. first you have just cleaned that strainer, and any gloop you use to glue the casing back on with will squeeze out the joint and bits of it will float about in the new oil, and get dragged to and clog that nicely cleaned mesh! NOT GOOD! Worse, one of the oil pump galleries is formed between the crank case and the primary drive cover flange. if you use gloop, its likely to squeeze into that gallery and clog THAT up starving oil flow to the top of the engine! EVEN more NOT GOOD!

T2 motor, as in the early twin-shock twin, is the most powerful production four-stroke 125 EVER... in good nick should chuck out about 16bhp, as much as the same era two-stroke twins, with more revs and more mid-range!

First off make sure you have a genuine T2 motor, not a later, common as muck, 12bhp Super-Dream engine, or worse, even more common 360 crank CD Benley or CM Rebel engine, that makes about 11bhp on single carb.

Good bits in your engine are the cam-shaft which was the wildest honda made, and about the best you cab fit a CB125 Twin; and the 26mm Carburettors.

Make sure that you have them... again, 'Reduced effect' Super-Dream bits fit, to fix up a knacker.

NOW, personally, I'd be inclined with a T2 to keep it stock. It is a classic and it does have that accolade of the most powerful production 125 four-stroke.

And its a pretty nippy little bike, and I'm not too sure I would want to go much quicker than the genuine 18mph it offers with that cantankerouse cable operated front brake! (It was bad enough on a CB100N single I had the displeasure of, many many years ago, even for the time when a lot of new lightweights still came with drums!)

Anyhow...16bhp... there aren't many Benley based motors that make much more power, and it is as much as the CB200 chucked out....

The CB Two-Fifty the bored and stroked 233cc 360 crank version of the Benley motor only knocked out 19bhp, while the most powerful variant was the CMX 250 Rebel, that was another 233cc 360 crank motor, but with twin CV carbs.... that made 21.

So.... it's a bit mutable how far you may take one of these little babies....

If you have the 26mm carbs and the genuine T2 full-power cam, you are off to a good start, and we know that the head and valves are good enough to flow enough for 20ish bhp... so there is scope to find more by boring.

Bug-bear though is that you cannot go over 142cc on the stock liners. You can get a kit to get this far from china for about £90, complete with pistons and rings... not really worth effing about with C70 slugs, when there's already CB125 pattern pistons that size.

Reports, however suggest that the extra 17cc... about 15% make very little noticeable difference to peak power, though.

But there just ins't enough metal in the sleeves in the barel to go much bigger... you could.... but you would be running on the finning ali.

Bigger liners? Barels from one of the bigger bore motors?

OK, well the biggest Benley based engines are 233cc and they get that from a 53x53 bore & stroke. The 200's are the same 53mm bore, but a slightly shorter stroke.

53mm bore on the 41mm CB125 crank-stroke gives 170cc... so you aren't going to get it all the way out to 200cc on stock 'big-bore-benley' barels.

CB200.... conveniently had the same 41mm stroke as the 125... and to get 198cc, used 55.5mm bore.

Bad news is that that is one over-bore BEYOND max over bore on a big-bore benley barel.... AND Big-Bore-Benley barels dont drop straight onto 125 crank cases.... the liners are too large for the cylinder apature.

OK... machine the block to get bigger barels in..... over-bore a big-bore barel......

You now have to find suitable pistons.... you have gone beyond the bore size for any of the standard Benley engines; not that you would want to use any of the big-bore benley slugs anyway, as they are flat-top low compression jobs, and the gudgeon pin diameter is too big to fit the con-rod, but too small to be sleeved in the piston.

So... boring out the 125 engine;

First problem: is the liner size the cases will take.
Second problem: how big you can bore 'big-bore-benley' liners
Third Problem: finding suitable pistons to match con-rods AND liner bore
Forth Problem: Making sure big pistons actually give you more power and dont rob it, having enough compression

Its a big mine-field. I have trodden it very carefully, and my advice is that unless you are pretty nifty at getting stuff machined to suit, and really know what you are about... which if you're asking here you probably ent..... dont bother trying.

142cc big-bore kit is available off the shelf. Dont make much odds, but probably the best you can do reasonably cheaply and easily.

Make sure it is a genuine T2 spec motor, and you do have the full power that spec offers.

Maybe as 'improvements' consider upgrading to 12v electrics using later Benley or Superdream generator & Superdream CDi Ignition.

Definitely consider what might be done to upgrade that cable disc brake.

Otherwise.... just make the thing as tidy and well fettled as you can and enjoy it for what it is.... a classic tiddler.

No matter how much you tune it, its never going to be very fast. Its a 125...

But in that company its one that you ought not ride on L-Plates or A1 licence becouse its already more powerful than legal restrictions or anything you can buy new in the show-room today!

Anyway, the very FIRST thing you need to know is that the Honda CB125 Super Dream is a 'Classic', a very useful one, too, and it has an awful lot going for it, that can make it a very discerning choice of bike. BUT, if you just want cheap wheels, or a tool to pass your test on, your probably best to look elsewhere. You need to have a bit of 'enthusiasm' to actually WANT a CB125 Super Dream, and if your going to live with it, you ought to have a good idea of what they are, what their history is, and what makes them worth owning.

Already written an article, Learner Legals & Honda Super-Dreams, to explain why this little 'under-dog' of a bike is a bit 'special' and worthy of attention. But in short, it was in 1982 Hondas premier 'sports' 125 for the new 125 Learner-Legal market. A four-stroke twin cylinder machine, intended to compete head to head on performance against rivals single cylinder two-strokes, when Honda were still ardently committed to the four-stroke engine and campaigning the oval-piston wonders against the two-strokes in 500GP racing.

The legal 12.5bhp 'restriction' helped, the Super-Dream but it still had to be 'de-tuned' from the earlier models 16bhp to meet it, the same as the all new Kawasaki AR125LC and Yamaha RD125LC, and boasted as many technically avant-garde features, so it DID have the performance to match its two-stroke rivals, at least when they were standard and genuinely learner-legal.

Nearly thirty years on, its conservative styling and four-stroke engine mean the bikes now perceived simply as a slightly more sophisticated 'commuter' like The Legendary Honda CG125 that's the bench mark for the class. Testimony to the soundness of the bikes design and engineering, though, it was in production for approximately ten years until 1992, without significant change.

There are few AR's or RD's around any more, most thrashed to death by a succession of kiddie-go-quickly owners and their attempts at servicing and tuning (see 125's - Live Hard), and the few that have survived tend to be either basket cases offered for restoration, or over-priced teenage revival trophies. Its testimony then that the little Super-Dream not only outlived its rivals in the show-room, but also on the streets, where so many are still in use, and as often as every-day working commuter bikes.

As a potential buyer, this does bode well. There should be plenty to choose from, to be able to find a better one. And as I have alluded to elsewhere, this is an 'under-dog' motorcycle, which means generally undervalued, hinting that there should be bargains to be found... or at least better bikes for more realistic prices, as the bike has past the 'test of time' and shown itself basically sound and reliable and well proven.

BUT! It IS still an 'old' bike, and the youngest of them out there will be at least nineteen or twenty years old, with the majority being built between 1982 and 1986, quarter of a century, pushing thirty years. AND while its conservative styling and four-stroke engine have placed it in with the commuter bikes, its 12,000rpm red line certainly does NOT! This IS a 'sports-bike', and it was far more avant-garde when launched than Honda's current 'premier' CBR125, which in many ways is actually a lot more conservative.

Worth noting that many of the features of the modern CBR125 are actually no more 'advanced' than the 125 Super-Dream, particularly the important bits, front and rear suspension, brakes, and tyre sizes.

And while it may boast a water-cooled and fuel injected engine, that is significantly to meet modern emission requirements, not for reliability or performance, and it's rated power out-put is within a gnats, the same as the 'ancient' Super-Dream twin.

Meanwhile, the fashionable beam-style frame and sporty faired styling, offer little functional value to the motorcycle. That frame is designed for least manufacturing cost, not ultimate structural stiffness!

While the aerodynamics of the bodywork offer little practical stream-lining to help the bike go faster! And the small weather protection they might offer has to be balanced by the vulnerability, if the bike gets knocked off the side stand!

Compared to the 'Bench-Mark' Honda CG125, the little Super-Dream is in a completely different league. The CG might have gained electric start and disc-brake in its long and illustrious production history, but it was always a 10bhp 'budget' commuter, built down to a price, most in Brazil. Which is another plus point in the Little Super-Dreams favour, as a premier model, it was always built in Japan. It even says so on the generator cover. Which is a boast I'm not sure even the CBR can make, and even if it can, an awful lot of the 'bits' that have gone into building it will have come from Taiwan or China!

So, the Honda CB125 'Super-Dream' is a well proven, enduring little 'sports-bike' that has stood the test of time against its contemporary rivals, and STILL bears favourable comparison against modern offerings. And it can be viewed as many things, depending on your perspective.

It may merely be perceived as a slightly more sophisticated commuter, an alternative to the CG125. Providing the creature comforts of an electric start and disc brake, only found on the later models, a little more performance, comfort and 'substance' for want of a better way to describe the better finish and feel, without simply saying 'heavy'! (It weighs 125Kg, exactly the same as a CBR125 or YBR125, and a mere 9Kg, more than the CG! That's roughly the difference between a full tank of petrol and being on reserve, yet some people still insist THAT is a big deal! Usually older ones that remember it being a little heavier than an RD or AR)

Or it can be viewed as as a traditionally styled and budget-priced 'sports' Learner bike, a cheap alternative to the CBR125, or as likely the Chinese or Korean copies. But it SHOULD be perceived as a 'classic', and a very useful and practical one, that can still earn its keep as an every day bike, against the teen-age revival bikes, like the RD-LC or AR125 and such.

Its worth mention that a lot of owners reports of the Honda CBR suggest that its no where near as exiting as its avant-garde styling suggest it should be, and its actually a rather uninspiring ride, a commuter in sports bike cloths. The 'old' Super-Dream could probably stand the opposite allegation. Its a proper sports-bike in commuter cloths!

Ranking the bike against alternatives; nearly every-one I have ever met that has owned or ridden one, has said positive things about it, and they have nearly always been happily surprised by it. The main thing that people will tell you about them is that they were a lot of fun, and surprisingly fast, and comment on the unexpected wail of a little four-stroke screaming its way up to the 12,000 RPM red-line, yet not blowing up or demanding frequent rebuilds like the two-strokes, and starting on the button first of second prod, no matter what, and just 'working'.

A few people have criticises the bikes performance and handling, and I have been dogged by people suffering niggles and hassles, asking advice over worn bores and dodgy electrics, but for the most part, these can be explained by the old age and state of neglect or disrepair of the bikes in question. Good ones are pretty damn good, but its still a learner-legal 125, and an old one likely to have suffered a lot of abuse and neglect in the hands of a succession of newbie riders, and there are plenty of not so good ones out there! I know, all mine started out that way!

TIME ON A TIDDLER IS RARELY WASTED

I always advocate starting out on a 125; the light weight, low powered bike will teach you an awful lot of 'basics' that jumping on a 'big-bike' will skip over. Also means that you can practice to your hearts content, very cheaply.

DAS courses are expensive; £500 - £1000 JUST to learn to ride. And a BIG chunk of that is hiring a DAS bike and paying an instructor to nurse maid you the whole time.

If you go the 125 route; you dont HAVE to test on it; but if you take weekly lessons, you can get the 'learning' you would on a DAS course, just as easily, and practice to your hearts content, not paying the instructor to watch you.

You'll also get a lot of early miles experience, that will give your learning meaning and relevance to help it 'stick'... and possibly prompt questions & lessons you would not get following the script of an intensive DAS course.

ONCE you have got the basics mastered on a tiddler; then, as you are 25, you have the DAS option.

DAS merely lets you take training under supervision on a 'big-bike', and test on a big bike, to get Full licence without restriction straight away. Yo do the same tests on a 125, and you get a full licence for it; only difference is you get a 2-year power probation. When that lapses you have a full, unrestricted licence, you dont have to take any more tests or anything.

So, training up ona tiddler is an ecconomic way about; you get most training for your money, and as much practice as you want or need, AND have the bike available to you the duration it takes to get a licence. While paying just for lessons; if you fail tests or anything, costs wont ramp as much.

So, forget cost of bikes a moment:

An Intensive DAS course, for a complete newbie; you would probably be looking at a five day course with maybe a 70% chance of first time pass. And probably £1000-1200 to get there. That JUST gets you a licence. THEN you have you kit to buy and your bike.

Going 125; you would be looking at perhaps £300-400's worth of training & tests to get restricted licence; if you wanted to do tests under DAS, a couple of conversion lessons and accompanied test lessons to put bike under your bum for the tests; might add £200 more to the bill.

SO: starting on a 125, to get to full licence, probably half the cost; even if you utilise DAS.

So starting costs; £300-£1200 for the licence. BIG variance.

If you go 125 route you'll need a bike, and kit and stuff 'up-front'. But you'd need that after if you went DAS.

125's are 'expensive'; they are little bikes, and you dont get a lot for your money. You get a lot more bike for your money in the 'big-bike' world, but they tend to also come with much higher running costs.

Price ranges dont change much between the two. £500 is entry money, for a ratter that has tax & test, and questionable reliability, likely to be an unreliable money pit. things get a bit better as you move up the market, and at £750-£1000 you can find bikes likely to be a bit more 'useful', but realistically, its around the £1000-£1500 mark that you can start looking at 'Decent' bikes.

In the 125 market, that gets you a very useful Yamaha YBR125 as a 'test-tool', that has great advantage of good resale; so you can buy one; do tests on it, and sell on for within maybe £100 or so of what you paid, and in the six months or year you want it; likely to not give much or any hassle or cost much by way of maintenence or repairs. Cheap to insure and economical too.

Same money buys more posey bikes; whether you want sporty or stylish. Tend to be less bike for your money; and will usually be older or more worn out; and less test freindly, simple rideability compromised for the style or notionally better 'performance'.

In the big bike market; same money offers a LOT more choice; but you really need to be up in the same price bracket to be looking at 'better' bikes that stand chance of being useful. And same sort of rules apply, as to tiddlers.

Twins, tend to be more ecconomical; simpler and cheaper to live with long term; fours offer more performance, but will usually cost more to run, and have more risk they will be more expensive to fix if they go wrong.

So, doing it on the cheap, £1000 is entry money for your bike; £1500 more comfortable for something likely to be a bit more useful.

Kit? Helmet, gloves, water-proofs. Protective gear? I dont reccomend leathers for a newbie; but textiles.

Doing it cannily, you dont have to get everything straight away. You can get away with no more than 'sensible' shoes/boots, crash-hat, gloves and water-proofs with 'layers' of heavy duty out-door clothing under for protection & warmth.

Realistically; Hats start at £30, and go up to silly money. £100 is a 'fair' budget for one. Gloves £10 up, £25 is fair for a reasonable pair. Water-Proofs, £30 up.

You ought to be able to put together a starter outfit for £200. And I striongly urge you to avoid buying a 'My First Motorcycle Outfit' of leather trousers, jacket and boots, all for £200-£250. Spend your money on good textiles for versatility.

SO!

£300 - £1200 for a licence.
£200 ish for starter riding outfit
£1000 - £1500 ish for a bike.
£??? For insurance.

You can get yourself on the road for maybe £1500, at a REAL squeeze on a 125, without a licence. £2K and you could get a licence to go with it, or have a bit better bike, for long term L-Plating....

£2.5K is a reasonably 'comfy' budget to get yourself on the road; basic kit; and legal, on a 125, get you some useful training and a licence, and let you 'swap' 125 for a useful 'big-bike' after tests.

Get a bit carried away? Want ALL the kit, straight off? Want a DAS course straight off the stops? HAVE to have a style bike?

Well, like any interest, will suck whatever finances you let it, really!

Doing it 'comfortably'; training up on a £1250 YBR125; with some sensible kit; giving yourself an easy time; avoiding hassle for ideas of asthetics or over enthusiasm to rush in and have it all now....

£2.5K is a 'good' all in budget, with scope.

Its one of the reasons that the CB125 ‘Super-Dream’ didn’t sell in the numbers that Honda had anticipated based on the popularity of the 250. The post ’83 learner market was a lot different, and with the limited performance of a 125 buyers wanted as much performance as they could get, preferably more, and ARs and RDs, though no faster out the show-room than the Super-Dream, could much more easily be convinced to go that bit quicker, with a little simple tinkering. Most that tried tinkering with the Super-Dream motor ended up with a pile of parts from different engines that simply couldn’t be married together and made to fit in the hole it had to go in!

Picking up on andys350’s comments; Honda CB125, CB200 and the CB ‘Two-fifty’, CD 125, CD175, CD200 ‘Benley’, CM125 & CMX 250 & possible other capacity factory-custom/cruiser variants, of intermediate capacities, and the Rebel, all share a common engine topography based on the crank cases, BUT with an awful lot of internal and external differences around them.

The 125 & 200 capacities share the same crank stroke, but with different bores, I think that the 175 has the 125 bore and a longer stroke, the 233 ‘250’ variants the 175’s stroke and 200 bore. (Note: the CB ‘Two-Fifty’ Super-Dream has the ‘little-twin’ engine, where the older CB250N is a different engine family, having a sleeved down CB400 lump, and commonality with the CB350 & CB450 and I think the CB500Twin)

So yes, to fairly large degree, the engines are part of the same family, and share a degree of interchangeability, but there ARE an awful lot of permutations and incompatible combinations.

And to be honest, for the couple of bhp even a successful tuning project might release, it probably isn’t worth the hassle, as the previous owner concluded, far easier to simply buy a faster bike.

And on that notion, I have to suggest that Snowie got her Cruiser-Thing for much the same reasons as your Lady-Friend; it was cheap, learner-legal and it had a low seat heght.

But, she found it dog slow; 55ish tops, and despite the low seat, it really wasn’t all that manageable, the laid back cruiser geometry and lazy steering making it more cumbersome to manoeuvre, particularly slow speed stuff like test training, and thoroughly uninspiring everywhere else, particularly the twisty roads taken to avoid main roads and duel carriageways and being a rolling road block pushed into the gutter by artics!

And the riposte to the advantage of the low seat height is a long stretch to wide bars, which if you are of smaller proportions, makes the low seat attractive, means your little arms are at full stretch just reaching the controls, and as we took a long time to fathom with Snowie, can mean that the steering input needed to make a cruiser turn, actually demands leaning contrary to the way you want to make the bike go round the corner, making the manoeuvrability, balance and handling even worse.

We made it better for her by lowering the bars and fitting even lower narrower ones, then putting the controls an inch inboard on them to narrow them even further, and messing a bit with the gear and brake pedal positions, but it still wasn’t brilliant.

When it got stolen, we got her a 125 Super-Dream, and though its got a taller seat height, overall the bikes INFINITELY more manageable and manoeuvrable, as well as significantly faster. As would most ‘commuter’ 125’s be.

Bottom line, I looked at the Honda ‘Little Twin’ derived engine in the Cruiser Thing, with pretty much the same sort of notion you are having with the Rebel…. Ultimately I mucked about to make the bike work handling wise for her, but as far as making it any faster, I just told the girl to live with it, and if she wanted to go any faster, to pass her test and get a quicker bike! It just wasn’t worth the messing.

End of the day, a 125 is a tool to get your test, or a cheap way to get to work quicker & cheaper than the bus. 10bhp might not be hugely exiting, but it’ll do the job

T2 motor, as in the early twin-shock twin, is the most powerful production four-stroke 125 EVER... in good nick should chuck out about 16bhp, as much as the same era two-stroke twins, with more revs and more mid-range!

First off make sure you have a genuine T2 motor, not a later, common as muck, 12bhp Super-Dream engine, or worse, even more common 360 crank CD Benley or CM Rebel engine, that makes about 11bhp on single carb.

Good bits in your engine are the cam-shaft which was the wildest honda made, and about the best you cab fit a CB125 Twin; and the 26mm Carburettors.

Make sure that you have them... again, 'Reduced effect' Super-Dream bits fit, to fix up a knacker.

NOW, personally, I'd be inclined with a T2 to keep it stock. It is a classic and it does have that accolade of the most powerful production 125 four-stroke.

And its a pretty nippy little bike, and I'm not too sure I would want to go much quicker than the genuine 18mph it offers with that cantankerouse cable operated front brake! (It was bad enough on a CB100N single I had the displeasure of, many many years ago, even for the time when a lot of new lightweights still came with drums!)

Anyhow...16bhp... there aren't many Benley based motors that make much more power, and it is as much as the CB200 chucked out....

The CB Two-Fifty the bored and stroked 233cc 360 crank version of the Benley motor only knocked out 19bhp, while the most powerful variant was the CMX 250 Rebel, that was another 233cc 360 crank motor, but with twin CV carbs.... that made 21.

So.... it's a bit mutable how far you may take one of these little babies....

If you have the 26mm carbs and the genuine T2 full-power cam, you are off to a good start, and we know that the head and valves are good enough to flow enough for 20ish bhp... so there is scope to find more by boring.

Bug-bear though is that you cannot go over 142cc on the stock liners. You can get a kit to get this far from china for about £90, complete with pistons and rings... not really worth effing about with C70 slugs, when there's already CB125 pattern pistons that size.

Reports, however suggest that the extra 17cc... about 15% make very little noticeable difference to peak power, though.

But there just ins't enough metal in the sleeves in the barel to go much bigger... you could.... but you would be running on the finning ali.

Bigger liners? Barels from one of the bigger bore motors?

OK, well the biggest Benley based engines are 233cc and they get that from a 53x53 bore & stroke. The 200's are the same 53mm bore, but a slightly shorter stroke.

53mm bore on the 41mm CB125 crank-stroke gives 170cc... so you aren't going to get it all the way out to 200cc on stock 'big-bore-benley' barels.

CB200.... conveniently had the same 41mm stroke as the 125... and to get 198cc, used 55.5mm bore.

Bad news is that that is one over-bore BEYOND max over bore on a big-bore benley barel.... AND Big-Bore-Benley barels dont drop straight onto 125 crank cases.... the liners are too large for the cylinder apature.

OK... machine the block to get bigger barels in..... over-bore a big-bore barel......

You now have to find suitable pistons.... you have gone beyond the bore size for any of the standard Benley engines; not that you would want to use any of the big-bore benley slugs anyway, as they are flat-top low compression jobs, and the gudgeon pin diameter is too big to fit the con-rod, but too small to be sleeved in the piston.

So... boring out the 125 engine;

First problem: is the liner size the cases will take.
Second problem: how big you can bore 'big-bore-benley' liners
Third Problem: finding suitable pistons to match con-rods AND liner bore
Forth Problem: Making sure big pistons actually give you more power and dont rob it, having enough compression

Its a big mine-field. I have trodden it very carefully, and my advice is that unless you are pretty nifty at getting stuff machined to suit, and really know what you are about... which if you're asking here you probably ent..... dont bother trying.

142cc big-bore kit is available off the shelf. Dont make much odds, but probably the best you can do reasonably cheaply and easily.

Make sure it is a genuine T2 spec motor, and you do have the full power that spec offers.

Maybe as 'improvements' consider upgrading to 12v electrics using later Benley or Superdream generator & Superdream CDi Ignition.

Definitely consider what might be done to upgrade that cable disc brake.

Otherwise.... just make the thing as tidy and well fettled as you can and enjoy it for what it is.... a classic tiddler.

No matter how much you tune it, its never going to be very fast. Its a 125...

But in that company its one that you ought not ride on L-Plates or A1 licence becouse its already more powerful than legal restrictions or anything you can buy new in the show-room today!

The Benly engines, as a rule, have 360 degree cranks; there's two revs per combustion cycle, or 720 degrees, so that means that both pistons are at TDC or BDC at the same time, (there's 'zero' degrees of crank rotation between the crank-pins) but they are always two 'strokes' infront or behind each other.

The Benley Engines, as most small honda's and in fact most motorbikes, employ what's known as the 'lost-spark' ignition system. Basically rather than as was conventional on a car engine that used a 'distributor' to time the spark ad send it to the right cylinder's spark plug, once per combustion cycle; it times the spark off the crank-shaft and lets it fire the plug(s) every rev; if the ignition is timed, say 4Degrees Before Top Dead Centre, then, the plug fires at 4 degrees before the piston gets to the top of the compression stroke, to set the fire to push the piston back down on the power stroke. Piston comes back up on exhaust, and the 'stupid' ignition system doesn't know a sparks not needed and fires the plug again, 4 degrees before top dead.. of course there's thing i the pot but smoke for it to set fire too, so it doesn't do much, hence is 'lost'; but saves having to get all complicated timing the sparks off the cam or anything.

Conveniently, IF you have a 360 timed parallel twin, like a little Honda Benly.. means that you only have to have one trigger to fire the sparks; and you only need to have one coil; just needs to be connected to two spark-plugs; This will then put a fire in the hole of both pots at the same time, and one will be when its needed, a few degrees before top dead centre on the compression stroke, and set the fire for the power stroke; the other will be 'lost' in the smoke of the exhaust stroke... next rev, which spark sets the fire and which is 'lost' swaps, and all is well.

Trouble with 360 twins, though is they are a bit vibey; both pistons going up and down together, it's like having a big single, all the weight goes one direction or the other at the same time, and there's thing to 'balance' it out... which was why the 400 (and consequently the sleeved down 250) Super-Dream had a balancer shaft....

The little 125 Benley, though, two moped sized pistons, not really an issue; certainly not when rated at 10bhp or so, and reving to less than 10,000rpm.

That is, till they decided to make a 'twn-carb' sports version, and to try and get more power from the damn thing than they did the 200cc version.. make it rev to 14+ooo rpm.. THEN it starts to get a bit vibey, and like to shale itself to bits!

So the CB125 Engine is the rougue in the family; it has a 180 degree crank, which is to say that the crank pins are 180 about, so one piston is 'up' when the other is 'down'; one stroke ahead, three strokes behind.... power pulses aren't as 'even' but the weight of one piston going up is sort of balanced a bit by the one coming down, so at revs it Is a 'smoother' engine.

Does mean you need to revise the ignition system though; you can still use a 'lost-spark' ignition, but you can no longer use a comon timing trigger on the crank, and common 'syamesed' coil to fire both plugs at the same time. If you did, you'd get a 'good' spark a few degrees before TDC on the compression stroke of one cylinder, but you'd be sticking the 'lost' spark into a pot, either a few degrees before bottom dead center on the power stroke, which might not be too much of problem and still be 'lost' in smoke; OR, what would be rather uhelpful, you'd be setting fire to the charge JUST sucked o the bottom of the induction stroke, and i either case only runing properly on one cylinder.

Answer is pretty self evident; you have to use two totally separate coils, one for each cylinder, so they can fire independently at separate timings, AND you need some-way of triggerig them at the right time; and the simplest way of doing that is to just have two triggers 180 degrees about on the crank-shaft.

Which is all a lot of anticipated pre-amble to explain that IF you have an actual CB125 Engine not a CD or CM motor between 125 and 234cc.. should have twin-trigger, twin CDi ignition system.

If as you describe you DONT have a twin CDI ignition.... poses suggestion you DON'T actually have a CB engine....

Next up.... the 'stator' wires.... The CB125 has three yellow wires from the three charging windings on the stator going direct to the Regulator/Rectifier.

The Ignition is 'self exited', which means it takes its power direct off the generator and has its own windings on the stator to power up the CDi units; working on the magneto-principle, AC current is taken down a solid blue, and a solid white wire; the AC pulse lasts 180 degrees of crank rev, so is a CD voltage as far as the ignition is concerned; these two wires feed BOTH CDi units.

The CDi is 'triggered' by a pair of induction coils, when a lug on the rotor passes them. They are separate from the stator, and spaced 180 degrees about the rotor to fire the sparks independently for each pot. They have a common green/white earth wire, isolated from the bikes common earth circuit; there's then a blue with yellow stripe wire for one trigger, a white with yellow stripe wire for the other.

The answer to your conundrum IS to be found the books; both by Haynes, the first that for the CB125 Super-Dream, the other the one for Four-Stroke Chinese 125's; The Wirig Diagrams they contain and a little prodding and poking with a Multi-Meter.

You NEED t be sure what you have to start with; as you have discovered, Honda used a common crank-case bolt pattern, on the CG OHV family of engines, the CB/XL OHC single engines, as well as the Benley OHC Twin motors, carried over to the Chinese copies ad their variants on them; that allows almost any of them to be swapped between genuine Honda and Chinese clone, copy or variant frames, very easily... BUT the devil is in these little details and revisions and differences, that offer perms and combs that run to gazzilons!

You could have a 12v CDi ignition CB125 Super-Dream engine.... You could have a 6v poits igition CB125T engine; you could have a 6v points CM or CM engine; a 12v and CDi CD or CM engine; of EVEN a 'splay-port' CG sigle motor, that was stuffed to the Super-Dream frame for some rice-markets ad found its way here with Honda badges on it!

First check what you got; pull the plugs ad turn the motor over o the rotor-bolt, and use a bic-biro through the plug-hole to find t of its 'one-up' or 'both up' crank-timed on the pistons. (and to make sure its not a bludy splay-port singe!)

I would try cleaning the two wires you mentio; the blue one and the white one, with white spirit, to see if there's a faded yellow stripe on them both.....

And I would put a multimeter on 'continuity' between the end of the black wire with the red collar, and the earth point, and play with the gear-lever... I suspect that is the Neutral Warnig Lamp Switch....
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PostPosted: 01:18 - 22 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are a Learner-Rider. Aproach it with a completely open mind, as though you DONT know a thing.... and when you find out you do, use it to ask pertinant and sensible questions.

PRESUMPTION is the Mother of all Fuck Ups....

Yes, there is quite a lot of transferable experience from cars to bikes, but bikes are very much more demanding to ride than cars are to drive; veiw from the controls a lot different, AND we are HUGELY more vulnerable and at risk!

Trouble with teaching existing car drivers to ride a bike, is often that you tell them what to do, but in one ear, out the other, and they revert to 'Driving' as though they were in a car!

Silly one for you; toght car drivers on CBT, they have done everything they have been told, listened, carefully, asked sensible questions and I have had no qualms making the cut to take them out on the road after lunch for road training...

WHERE... fifteen yards from the gates of the college, at the first T-Junction.... they FALL OVER!

Why?

Well on the play-ground riding round cones, its all completely new, and unfamiliar, and they respond and do; just as if they were being given a ski-lesson, or tought to fly a hang-glider with absolutely no preconseptions, presumptions or previouse experience impinging on it....

But, ride off the play-ground, out the gate and faced with a white give way line, and a 'familiar' situation.... they do exactly what they have ALWAYS done in such a situation.....

Stop... sit still, like they would in a car, and forget to put thier bludy foot down to prop themselves up!

SERIOUSELY, it can be THAT bludy stoooopid!

Lots of other things car drivers do; they are far more 'mirror dependant' than we can be on bikes, and they tend NOT to use thier mirrors or do observations anywhere near as frequently as you need to on a bike.

This is another common previouse driver fault; they dont LOOK, they dont do the observations we need to on a bike, actually moving our heads and physically looking over our shoulders, and instead, automatically look for find and glance in the mirror, and no where near as often.

They also seem to ALWAYS forget to cancell thier indicators, becouse in cars auto-cancelling does it for them...

And very frustrating as an instructor riding along, following a student and the entire LESSON, you are constantly telling them the SAME THINGS over the radio.... "MOVE YOUR HEAD", "Cancel your Blinkers"... and they KNOW what they are doing 'wrong' and what they need to remember; its just that they are so USED to doing things the way they would in a car, instinct and engrained reactions take over.

'Doing DAS'.... this is a big problem. You get a couple of days on a bike, with a wally like me, nannying you around the roads, breathing false confidence into your ear constantly REMINDING you of these silly things you have forgotten, while you 'practice' for tests.

You are paying, a HUGE amount of money on a typical DAS course for NO MORE than the instructor being there, fullfilling the requirement to provide Radio Supervision to let you be on a 'big-bike; with L-Plates, and trying to drill these faults out of you by 'rote'.

Stuff thats actually 'useful', the real telling you what you need to do; one to one instruction.... you get very little of.

Training conventionally, on your own 125; you do CBT, get a bike, wobble about on it, try not to fall off, and learn pretty much by your own mistakes until you feel confident enough to take tests, is similarly frought; you learn only what DOESN'T work, and you dont get fed anything to help you do anything different, and possibly better, and its learning the hard and often painful way.

One of the best ways to learn is on your own 125, though; with weekly lessons.

Do CBT, go away, practice, come back. Get an hour or two of an instructor telling you what you are doing wrong, what you are doing right; giving you tips, and then sending you home, for a week to practice as MUCH as you like, on your own.

For the same number of paid for hours of training; FAR more of it is actually giving you USEFUL preparation to ride a bike; and you are NOT paying some-one to nanny you, and merely fullfil legal requirement to let you be on the road while you practice.

Intensive DAS courses, danger is, that so much information, provided in so short a space of time, you WONT get as 'much' useful know-how from it; and half of what you do get will be forgotten just as quick, and of what remains with so little real saddle time to give it meaning, it wont make much sense.

Consequently; a lot of the focus of training on an intensive DAS is on drillin out by 'rote' silly mistakes like observations & cancelling indicators, and providing 'Test-Tricks' to put on a performance for the examiner to get you a licence, RATHER than giving you good useful tools to be a decent, safe competant rider.

THEN leaves you out on your own for the very first time, WITHOUT that voice in your ear picking up on anything you might do wrong... on a pretty large and powerful machine that COULD get you into a lot of trouble very quickly.....

EITHER, thinking becouse you have done the course and passed the test, and 'know it all' until falling off proves otherwise... OR you are left suddenly bereft of support, with a jumble of confused ideas about what you were tought, and no guiding voice in your ear, thinking "Shit! WHAT DO I DO!"

THAT is the 'Danger' of DAS, or specifically intensive DAS courses.

DAS does NOT mean that you HAVE to do an intensive three, four or five day course.

ALL DAS is is the provisions in the test scheme for you to:-
1/ ride a 'big-bike' on L-s under radio supervision of qualified instructor.
2/ take the motorcycle tests on such a 'big-bike'
3/ and if passing tests be awarded full unrestricted A-Group licence without probationary restrictions of any sort.

Thats ALL it is; its NOT a course. I could ride my 750 to the test centre, with you on the pillion; slap L-Plates on the thing, and give you a letter saying that you had my permission to ride it; to show the examiner along with your cars insurance cert that says "And Any other Vehicle with owners Concent" so that you are insured to ride the thing, and you could Do your test on it and if you passed ride the fucker home!

You do NOT have to do a DAS course, you do NOT have to do an intensive DAS course.

IF you want a 'good' grounding for riding bikes; then I WOULD seriousely reccomend looking to get a 125 to use purely as a learning excersize.

Doing weekly lessons after CBT on your own 125, as said, you get BEST 'value' from the paid for instruction, and you can practice to your hearts content between times.

Riding unsupervised, you WONT get so ear-peace dependant, and will build confidence a LOT quicker.

AND you will, 'engraine' riding habbits to instinct the same as you have almost certainly done driving a car, and be FAR less likely to make or continue to make those silly car-driver reversions, like forgetting obs, or cancelling blinkers.

You'll also catch yourself out, doing 'life saver'; shoulder checks in teh car, and having any rear seat passengers wondering why you are turning around to look at them before changing lanes on the motorway..... but Hey, thats just bonus, you almost certainly take more from bike riding away that will make you a better car driver, IF only from the amount of observation you will do, and the more you will actually consider of what you see!

So, training on your own 125; costs are always uncertain, BUT training in this way; you will tend to get much better grounding and be much better prepared as a rider, and typically, six, eight, twelve weeks? all you ought to need to get to, and pass test standard and get a licence in your pocket for it.

You can then sell on the 125, and all in; costs of getting to that point; can be similar to doing an intensive DAS course. All circumstance dependant; but buying a bike and selling on, taking some depreciation and the running costs of that bike, including the insurance; hard to say whether overall it will be more or less expensive than doing a DAs straight off.

What is pretty sure is that for the same money you will get a much better preparation for post test riding; AND if you struggle, or dont pass tests straight off, it will almost certainly prove cheaper than DAS courses, where you pay a premium for a school booked test slot, both tests 'ahead booked' so the date and time of Mod 1 and Mod 2 fall in the course time; where if you fail Mod 1, you have a three day wait before you can re-apply for a new date, and will LOOSE the Mod 2 slot and the test fee.

Even just having to pay for repeat test fees; at around £125 a pair booked through the course, rather than individually for £15.50 for a Mod 1 Slot and £75 for a Mod 2, it can be expensive to fuck up. IF as many schools do, the tests are bundled in the course cost, and you have to pay for an entire new course, then it can get VERY fucking expensive....

So have a think, I'm not telling you what to do, I'm JUST explaining the options and telling you that you DO have options.

BTW... weekly training on a 125 would again NOT preclude you testing under DAS for an unrestricted licence.

As said, under DAS I could 2up you to test on my 750 and let you get on with it; no need for you to use a school.

Schools can be useful though, and if you train on a 125, If you want, nothing stopping you poay a few extra quid to do a DAS conversion lesson, for maybe an extra £20 to try out the big bike; then fork out maybe £70 for a 'Prep & Test' session; instructor supervising & coaching you on the trip to the test centre to use the school DAS bike for the test.

Doing the test on your OWN 125 though; has the advantage you may be more familiar and comfortable on it;l and it can save you pennies, and you dont need an instructor to nanny you to test centre.

Test on your own 125, you STILL get a full A-Group licence, and you DONT have to take any more tests after.

ONLY impediment with testing on a 125 is that doing so, you get a two year power probation. Means you can still ride any capacity bike you like, BUT it has to have an engine that makes no more than 33bhp or be restricted so it cant.

JUSt becouse you are over 21 DOES NOT mean you HAVE to do DAS, and the restricted licence is NOT a waste of time, or any less of a licence than what you get for doing DAS and DONT let any Riding school try and 'sell' you an expensive intensive DAS scheme on that kind of bull-shit!

33bhp is an awkward power limit; and does restrict the bikes you could jump straight onto that are naturally 33bhp complient.

But plenty of machines, are easily and cheaply restricted... and again DONT believe the bollox that you have to have a certificate of restriction and that they cost £200 and shit like that.

Ultimately; law merely says that it is up to YOU to ensure that the bike you ride is in accordance with your licence entitlement, and no more. How you do it is up to you.

What insurance companies may or may not ask for is entirely different matter; but again, there is no LEGAL obligation for you to have some kind of restriction certificate, and nothing stoppng you going to an insurance company that dont ask for one.

33bhp? Its not a lot, but its good enough to get a motorcycle up to over 100mph, and frequently do so faster than even pretty quick cars, thanks to the high power to weight ratio.

It IS enough to have a lot of fun with, and plenty for an early rider newby, it does NOT need to be a major impediment to enjoying your riding.

And after two years; restriction automatically drops off, and you can have any bike you like, just as if you had passed under DAS rules.

So, onto suitable bikes; for a newbie; either straight off DAS or stepping up from a 125, its NOT about size, its about 'Nature'.

As said, a 33bhp bike is good enough to break tripple figure speeds and get there plenty fast enough to scare most car drivers.

A 60bhp bike will normally break the two-mile a minute mark, and provide pretty lairy acceleration to it, compared to a car.

I have a CB750, its a 75bhp 'street-bike'. Its old, built in 1993, and its design is even older, having an engine taken from the 1984 CBx750 and DE-TUNED by 20bhp down to the 75bhp it has, and put in a chassis of even older 'twin-shock' technology, dating back to the 1960's & 70's. It is a LONG way from a cutting edge modern sports bike!

But, it will run very very eagerly to 125mph, and it will out accelerate all but the most spirited 'fast-cars' on its way there; and for me, and experienced rider, it still has more than enough capability to chuck around in the twisties and ride round numpties on the latest hot-snot sport-600's.

It is, by modern perceptions a 'boring' motorcyle, but I can tell you that even THAT is more than enough to be pretty bludy exiting!

And out the crate; they are quite a good 'newbie' bike. They are soft and forgiving, and give you a lot of feed-back about what you are doing, right OR wrong, that will help you develop your skills as a new rider, and in providing that feed-back and warning when you are doing stuff wrong, give you the 'clues' that will help you know WHEN to back off, and can keep you safe.

More focused, more competant bikes, will NOT give you the same sensations or feed-back, and will let you ride into danger not KNOWING how close to the edge you are.

Straight off DAS, a bike like the old CB750, reasonable enough starting point as any; and a bike you need NOT grow out of. I like mine. Its not THE most capable bike in the worlds, but in allround capability, to go have fun in the twisty lanes, tackle motorway blasts, load up with pillion or luggage and spend long hours in teh saddle; an awful lot of 'biking' for not a lot of money!

Mine cost me less than £500 in slightly shabby state; about a grand, to make it the way I like, not far off what I could have paid for something pretty tidy show room standard. And it costs me £80 a year to insure, against £120 a year for the CB125 or £150 for the DT125!

Bandit, is a similar bike; 150cc smaller and unfortunately in the popular and slightly more highly loaded 600 insurance group, and while not such a bad choice, personally I think that its slightly more highly tuned motor makes it a bit more tiring to ride and can urge a newbie to try too hard, wanting to get at the power and use the revs. But small gripe/

Plenty of other alternatives, including the JX600 Diversion; though TBH I would as easily reccomend a 'sensible DAS newbie the 900 version.

But I normally reccomend the commuter twins as the first big bike; whether on 33bhpo restricted licence, or straight off DAS, they are a very useful stepping stone.

Two cyclinders, they are, if needed more cheaply and easily restricted. Less refined twin pot motor tends to give more clues what its doing, and runs out of breath at the top end if you thrash it, where the fours will often rev eagerly to higher rmp, and encourage you to exploit the power they have up there.

Slighly less 'capable' than the 'fours' they offer a load more of this 'feed-back' and will generally offer a lot of learning for the small performance sacrifice, and give you a lot of opportunity to get into trouble... just not QUITE so blisteringly quick!

My VF1000, by modern standards, a bike that is not very powerful and is hugely over weight, would accelerate from 50 to 80 in less than two seconds. Damn thing could drop the quarter mile from a stand still, in under 11seconds with a terminal velocity of about 135, in the road tests. But in the intermediete roll ons, thiong could be lethal. Even with umpety years experience behind me, filtering onto motorway slips, or coming off roundabouts, that 'half second glance' over my shoulder to check gaps, and I coule be piking into the back of a truck doing 60mph, doing near twice that speed!

CB750, again, NOT a hugely powerful bike by modern standards, still runs similar risk, but, more likely to only be getting a tad close at about 90!

Commuter twin, A Suzuki GS500; Kawasaki ER5, or GPz500s; Honda CB500 or Suzuki SV650...

SV is a 75bhp bike, as stock; modern perception is its a bit 'wet' compared to 'real' sportsbikes, but lighter and more nimble than my 750,m still a bike that will see you touching silly speeds a tad TOO easily, at least in full power form. Others are all parallel twins. GPz500s is probably the most powerful and sporty of them, with about 60bhp, and a close second for performance to an SV. Others are all more comuter orientated, and offer a bit either side of 50bhp, as standard.

This is 'enough' to cut your teeth on, and fast enough to give you an idea of the things I'm talking about, without being SO far out of the realms of performance envelope of other traffic as it will give you a mind warp trying to get your head round it.

And a few months, a year, maybe even two, on a bike like that, would be very good 'grounding' to let you get on anything more 'adventurtouse' and not be to awed by it.

You would also be able to apreciate whetever you got after a lot more, from the comparison, as well as get more from it, from teh experience gained on the twin.

And if you decide NOT to get a 125 and do weekly training, and dive in with an intensive DAS course, (often schools just dont offer the courses to make anything else a viable option) I would THOROUGHLY reccomend a bike like this be the limit of your initial aspirations; and imedietly post DAS, even though you have a licence, use a commuter twin, as a first bike, to 'learn' on, and get what you have missed in early riding doing it on a 125, and perhaps back your early riding with some 'refresher' lessons, and after maybe an advanced course, before looking at the big-fours.

Point is; lots of options; dont dive in; dont presume on anything from driving a car let alone what as a car driver you percieve to be a 'fast' car, aproach it with an open, and pragmatic mind set, and try and make the options available work the BEST they can for you.

Oh, and as one last thought for you..... 'Fast' is all reletive. Fast cars, can be pretty thrilling and a lot of fun, and 170mph from an exec saloon can seem pretty excerssive and very very fast.

By comparison, the 150mph you see stated as the top speed of a modern sports 600, might not seem all that fast; while the mere 105mph listed as the maximum velocity of a humble commuter twin is likely to be scoffed at, as less than a diesel people mover....

Thing is; that people mover will take an age to get over 90. CB500 wont exactly romp away to its top speed, but it will still get there a damn site faster than you expect.

And unlike cars, where you dont OFTEN get the road room to use what performance they offer; too much traffic, roads too tight and twisty and narrow. Bike's width and ability to filter. Its manouverability, and its speed of response means that the performance is DOES have, is available, and CAN be exploited an AWFUL lot more often.

But the buck stops when it goes wrong; fast car has four fat tyres, abs, traction control, and will do a lot to save you from doing something too daft to begin with, and protect you pretty well curtecty of crunple zones and ipact protectiuon ssystems, when it doesn't.

Bikes DONT... it's YOU, out there, in the breeze in DIRECT contact with the enviroment...

If you really enjoy your fast car, think long about it, becouse an AWFUL lot of drivers, after even a merely moderately fast bike, suddenly realise that the car, REALLY isnt't all THAT exiting, and it can KILL thier enthusiasm and enjoyement of them!

Its swings and roundabouts whichever way; 125's are very 'useful' as a training tool, in that if you DO have the right approach and use them as a training tool, you can, REASONABLY safely exploit the provision for unsupervised L-Plating to get best value training & early miles experience.

I agree that larger bikes can be a bit 'easier' to ride. Extra stability, more flexible power, more mass, will damp clumsy gear changes and resist nervouse steering input..

But bigger is a generalisation, and it doesn't always work; something like an R6 is barely any heavier than some 125's and WONT be easier to ride, becouse it doesn't have the weight associated with bigger bikes, or the stability, especially at slow speed.

125, actually being HARDER to ride, or at least more demanding, is a useful training tool to instill some basics.

Where something like a GS500 is heavy and soft, and stable, and has a nice tractable spread of power, so that you dont need to work the gear-box so hard, and with that tractible power, if you habg the change too long, you aren't so likely to fall out the power, and mass will keep the bike rolling and smooth it all out a bit for you and flatter your riding.

EN125 is no where NEAR as forgiving. Hang your change from 1st to 2nd too long, and by the time you have clogged it into 2nd, what little momuntum you had traveling at 1/3 the speed, and with half the mass, means you've stopped moving before you have the clutch back out!

Likewise with steering input; with less inherent stability, yanking the bars too hard, to fast, bike twitches and wobbles and lets yu KNOW that you are making an arse of it.

So if you can get the 'basics' cracked on a tiddler and make good swift, smooth 'progress'... WHEN you step up onto a 500, its a 'doddle'...

But if you only EVER ride the 500? you may never actually get such an inate 'feel' for the balence, and stepping from a bike like the GS that will flatter a less than great newbie, onto something more 'flighty', you have a 'hole' in your skillset, that you have NEVER had to develop such an inate delicate 'touch'.... but instead of trying to aquire it on a bike that is a bit nervouse becouse its small, light and under-powered.... your trying to 'learn' all over, on something that has actually be 'tuned' to be that nervouse.

On that basis, time on a tiddler is not a waste of time, especially right at the start.

Two years? Length of a CBT cert. I wouldn't say you need ALL that time on one. Maybe not. Just a bit more than the first 15 minutes of CBT Playground during an intensive DAS course!

Three months? All it 'needs' take to get a licence the 125 way, with weekly lessons, for a pretty solid 'foundation' and preparatory skill-set. 'reasonable' to my mind.

Only thing limiting you to a 125, is not passing the bike tests to get a full licence, like wot you had to do before you were allowed to drive a car.

125's are good for two things; passing tests, and IF you are as miserly minded as can be, beating bus-fare travel prices; though even then; if you are really deturmined to travel cheap, you'll go further for your money on a full licence, on a slightly bigger bike, not paying the 'Learner-Loading' on either a 'learner-licence' or learner legal bike.

Give you a hint here; with a full licence my CB750, a 120mph, 75bhp bike is £80 a year to insure. Even with a full licence, CB125 costs £110.

CBT is NOT a qualification, its the 'first lesson' how to ride a bike, and that LEARNER LICENCE it validates is exactly that; so you can LEARN and practice for TESTS to get a full licence;

NOT so you can wobble around, without a clue, hoping not to kill yourself or any-one else, an unqualified hazard to all, for ever and a day, NOT getting up to grade and proving it, and getting the licence that's the 'key' to basically anything you want from biking.

125 'Cruisers'?

They DONT WORK.

They may look like a little harley; but they are a complete and utter waste of time and money!

As a training & test tool, they are worse then hopless. Ergamonics of the riding possition DONT give you best control over the bike, which has 'chopper' geometry and balence that make it about as 'nimble' as an elephant in a discount store, when it comes to doing the kind of test excersises demanded by the modern tests.

Seriousely; I have put a Honda CBR1100RR Super-Blackbird, hyoer-sports bike, or an ST1100 Pan-European Maga-Tourer full dressed with barn door fairing and paniers through the CBT test cones with less 'effort' than the couple of 125 cruisers I have tried it on!

They really are barge like and NOT a great place to start your riding career, filling it with confidence!

As for on the road; well.... about the only thing that they have in common with propper cruisers, is they are 'slow'.

BUT, unlike propper crsuiers, which to my mind start at the 'baby' Yamaha Virago with its 535cc engine..... they dont go slow becouse of big, softly tuned engines that have low down grunt to waft you along with least effort.

No, they have the same buzzy little things as other little bikes, that need the nuts reving off them and three gear changes to get them to 30mph..... only lugging around an abundance of chrome and fenders, they take even LONGER to do it, because they tend to be heavier.

Paddling the gear-box, to make them move, and working hard to get them to go where you want, is to my mind completely the OPPOSITE of what a 'real' cruiser ought to be; relaxed, laind back stress free riding.....

And these things, for all the chrome, just do not do that.

All they do, is ask you to pay an awful lot more money, to get something that LOOKS like a Harley, to NOT do either what a cruiser should do, OR a Learner-Legal.....

And as an 'ecconomy' bike to get to and from on? Yeah, by dint of being slow that CAN be pretty frugal; but paying a premium to get that ecconomy you could get paying LESS for a regulation learner commuter, that does the same job better, makes NO SENSE what so ever to me.

AND if you USE a 125 for what its best at..... GETTING A LICENCE....

Then you can have something like a Virago 535, JUST as cheaply, that you DONT have to hustle through test cones, that DOES 'Cruise' and remarkably is actually likely to cost you LESS to run that a 'toy' cruiser' bought becouse it 'looks' like something bigger.... but fitted with an L-Plate just makes you look like any othet twit on an L-Plate, only a slightly more tittish one with poor taste and even less of a clue about biking!

And you wanted us to be 'gentle'?

Sorry.... not happening!

But damn sight softer on you bursting your bubble here and now, than letting you learn the hard way!

Get a regulation Learner-Commuter; get a licence with it; which is what the Learner licence is there for; THEN when you know something and have proved you can ride; go get whatever takes your fancy, and meets your needs, and if Cruisers still apeal; Yamaha 535 Virago is the defacto 'My First Cruiser' and hard to beat.

Meanwhile; here and now; Yamaha YBR125, is the defacto 'LEarner-Commuter' and again, is a pretty hard allround package to best.

Or go get your toy-harley, and a cut off, to play 'Sons of Anarchy'... and look to every other biker like the Milky-Bar kid does to John Wayne, as long as it has the L-Plates!

FIRST: caution. Beware the CG125, victim of its own reputation.
Idea 'you cant go wrong with a CG, indestructible, them is', is grossly exaggerated. They are tough little bikes, but they wear out like any other, and will still bend when crashed hard enough, and 'low maintenance' doesn't mean NO maintenance.
Too many out there, that are ridden into the ground, and badly bodged, people expect far too much from, put far too little into, and STILL expect silly money for.
NEXT: The CG125 is the original; but gazzillions of cheap Chinky copies out there. CG's are 'worth money' old Chinky copies are NOT.
Is it a genuine CG? With so many CG Copies floating about, easy enough to dress one up as a genuine Honda; or 'ring' one as a genuine honda. OR simply fix up a real Honda with mostly Chinky copy parts.

In addition to the 'usual' checks to make sure its not a stolen or smashed bike, you need to make for any bike.

That's my starting point for a CG, and on the whole, given that the pool of decent bikes is deteriorating, and the prices are actually holding strongly, to the point that at the moment; there are a lot 'safer' places to go look for 'cheap' 125, I tend to reccomend avoiding the model.

BUT; that one; as said, Snowie asked what I thought, and if it might be worth a punt for her lad.

So, £475, its priced to sell. It's not daftly over priced like so many, BUT reading the detail; its not taxed or tested, or ride away ready, so it oughtn't really be worth more than £300 as a 'fixer-upper'. Ad suggests its an easy fix; just needing a bit of 'cosmetic' work to get it through an MOT, and hints, that you could get it OTR 'cheaply'... well, £30 for an MOT, £25 for a V5, £16 for tax, and you have £75 JUST to tick the boxes to make it roadable, even if you dont have to spend a penny on it... Start adding a few quid for new keys or lock sets, and ACTUALLY it's not going to be THAT cheap, even if it doesn't have anything majorly needing attention, like the brakes overhauling, the chain & sprox replacing, headrace bearings renewing or fork-seals doing, or 'niggly' electrical issues that need sorting, in consequence of theft attempt or damage.

What can you get a 'good' CG for? That age, one in tidy standard condition, they do fetch a premium, and they get snapped up at £750 ready to ride, and seen people asking near a grand for ones that are not that great.

But gives some 'idea' pay the £475 ask price, plus delivery, because you cant ride it home, chuck realistically around £200 at it to make it road-able, and you have spend the same as would buy you something 'ready to ride'.... So big risk for small bargain.

Looks like it MIGHT be a genuine CG; has the right engine covers, has a reg no for a real Honda, but lack of log book, doesn't inspire confidence; Pete's DVLA check suggests that the log-book is 'suspended' as a Cat write off.... could be CAT-C that only needs an MOT to 'clear', BUT you would have to do the work and get it through an MOT first, before you could get the V5.... risky.

Take one Cat-A'd CG from a salvage yard, one cheap Chinese Fake-away, and attach engine cases, VIN plate and Number-Plate, and your £200 heap of junk suddenly becomes a desirable £500 bike....

My aprasisal is it's too expensive, and there's too much 'risk'. to be worth a seriouse punt.

I would want to see it in the metal, I would want to crawl all over it looking for 'tells', to gain confidence, looking for the hidden faults.

I might NOT walk away; but if it checked out; risk vs reward, scrubbed up nice, its only a £750 bike, and at that asking price there just isn't the 'margin' to make it worthwhile.

IF, inspection gave me more confidence; top dollar, its only worth £300, as it's sat, a 'Spares or Repairs' project without paperwork, and I would be offering a derisory £200, for the thing. Personally I wouldn't want to go over £250 for it.

And THAT is after asking the initial dum question; do you WANT a project? Can you DO a project? Lots of people nievely believe that they can fix bikes up easily and cheaply; but look at the workshop & show and tell for the reality! Projects take time; space, effort; and always cause SOME hassle. You NEED to know you have the tools and facilities to take one on; AND as importantly support of people around you who aren't going to give you grief the whole time, moaning about that pile of junk on the patio and the oily finger prints on the light switches!

If it's close; if you are clued up; if you are prepared for what getting it to road will entail; you have the money to cover the immedietly guessable costs; plus that to cover any unforeseen hassles; dont expect it to happen in a week; and are prepared to accept the risk that its likely to end up costing you as much or more than a bike you could buy ready to ride..... it MAY be worth persuing, IF you can get bloke to accept a more realistic offer, that gives you more 'margin'...... BUT you will be bidding against a lot of far more nieve and optimistic buyers who are likely to give him what he's asking, kidding themselves that THEY can get that thing 'on the road' for just £50.....

Right; 125's are good for two things;

Cheap bus fare beating wheels for the economy conciouse, two whom style & performance take second place to hard cash considerations.

Training & Test tools to be used to obtain a full licence & open the door to ANY capacity of bike, of any style or level of performance.

Given that 125's tend to be expensive to insure due to so many being ridden and crashed by high risk, Learners or early riders, and nicked by teenage scroats; and few return such spectacular mpg as many hope, and running costs of the more sporty or posey can, all up be higher than on a 'big-bike'...

the 'Bus-fare Beating' ecconomy of a 125, is often only there for those REALLY ardent to find it and accept the compromise of very limited performance & 'utiliterian' style...

NOW: - Lets break down your wants and needs here a little and see what we can do.

And I'm going to start with this idea of 'a little green-laning' now and then.

First of all, what do you know about Green-Laning? As you dont have a CBT yet, I'm going to guess you have never done it,. least wise on a bike.

Do you know how many miles of 'unsurfaced public right of way, with vehicular access' we actually have in this country?

I'll give you a clue; its measured in HUNDREDS of miles nationally, compared to a tarmac network measured in tens of thousands of miles. It ENT a lot; though some areas are better endowed than others.

Next; do you know how to FIND and status check lanes you can ride?

And do you know what to expect, if you tried?

I can tell you here and now; its FAR from non stop cross country riding, like living a Charlie & Ewan episode......

Most lanes in this country are now so well graded in the more 'used' districts they are no more interesting to ride than any surfaced country road with a spew of gravel on the top.

Others, are so short as you would have more fun trying to set up a grass track round your back lawn.

And most are hardly more interesting than a farm track.

The persuit entails hours pouring over maps and checking web-sites to FIND tracks you can ride, and trying to patch together some sort of route joining together as many as you can to make a days riding.

That day will then consist of possibly eight hours in the saddle; six and a half of them will be riding tar-top between trails..... an hour will be spend pouring over the maps and scouring hedgrows looking for the actual lane start..... and about forty five minutes MIGHT actually be decent dirt-riding.

Does this sound SO much 'fun' as to be worth the compromises, and 'costs' you want to put on this bike you want, for that 'occassional' bit of 'Green-Laning'?

Bike for the gig is a Yamaha DT125; its common enough to be easy to live with, and proven it's capability over the years.

For that 'capability' you will pay approximately 50% more on insurance than a 'mundane' commuter. The model of bike gets loaded, for being a high risk.

Bikes with knobly tyres carry a higher theft risk; even if you insure one Third Party Only to avoid the insurers having to accept that risk, the 'base' premium is still loaded by the overall model risk.

The DT is loaded higher still, because its a two-stroke, and more often tuned, more sporty, and often crashed.

My 15bhp/75mph DT125, the 'classic' air-cooled 1970's model, is actually MORE to insure than my 75bhp/125mph Honda CB750.....

It ALSO uses more fuel...... it does 'about' 60mpg and requires two stoke oil to be added to that at about an extra 6p/l of petrol..... And that DROPS when off-roading.

And 'good' as my DT is; as an off-roader its pretty crap. I have a Montesa Cota comp-trials bike; THAT is a propper off-roader. For the road, I have the CB750 and a CB125 for pottering about. And again, the DT isn't a patch on either on tarmac.

Its a jack of two trades, master of neither; FUN, but it's compromised wherever you take it, and an expensive indulgence for me, an experienced rider, who CAN make use of it, and by dint of age and experience not get raped on insurance, or have to sustain the running costs using it as every day sole means of transport.

So; lets go back; needs and wants.

What do you NEED this bike to do? Is it a Bus-fare-dodger, or training wheels, or is it a week-end toy?

On CBT... first priority is to get a licence and get rid of that self imposed impediment to getting a lot more biking for your budget.

On that score, an on-off road bike, and notions of going green-laning, are not particularly great.

Learners fall off; and bent bikes dont get you through tests very well.

On dirt; learners fall off more. Shit, I've been riding dirt thirty more years than I care to remember I STILL fall off!

But straightening the bikes half the fun for me; and I dont have to use the bike for anything else. I have enough of them I can shove it under a cover and sort it out as and when I can be bothered or can find the money, and use one of the others or the car in the mean time.

If you need that bike to be 'available' and in a presentable enough condition to not get an examiner cringing for a test apointment; going out to bend it before hand, probably not the best idea.

While, IF its only a passing notion for something you MIGHT, only do 'occassionally', and dont really know much about to begin with....

Is choosing a bike that is more expensive than you can afford or are prepared to pay, to buy, insure and run, ANd which is less than ideal for the other tasks you may have of it; like getting about commuting, getting some training in on, and doing some tests REALLY worth the compromise....

If pennies are important FORGET off-roading, its a bad idea. Get a CG125, or a YBR 125, cheap, regulation learner commuter, the tool for THAT job, use it for whats intended; get tests & full licence with it...

THEN with THAT in your pocket; door is open to loads more possibilities.

bikes over 125 can be cheaper to insure, and in the 126-400cc range can often be lower; in that bracket the 'loading' from something with knobly tyres CAN be a lot easier to bear.

Meanwhile, haing got your licence; you are released from having to 'preserve' the bike for training & tests, and you ought by this point to know a bit more; and green-laning MAY be worth sacrificing some stuff for.

BUT.... first thing is tests, and bottom line is you dont get owt for nowt, and if you want the 'fun' of an off roader on top of the value of a mundane commuter-learner... you got to pay for it. So up the anti and get it, or lower your expectations and aspirations and do with out the add-on.

From where I'm standing it REALLY isn't worth the extra, but depends how much you THINK its worth really, or what compromises you are prepared to make elsewhere....

Concentrate on ONE thing at a time, and the FIRST thing is getting your licence.

How do I get a Licence?

The most accurate source of information on this topic is probably to be found from; "Riding motorcycles and mopeds" on the UK 'Directgov' website. But it is often difficult to follow! What is offered here, is then for guidance.

There are two KINDS of UK Licence, a 'Provisional' Licence or 'Learner-Licence' and a 'Full' Licence.

Any-One 16 or over may hold a Provisional licence. (Each entitlement 'category' though has its own age eligibility. You may only really ride a moped at 16 years old. At 17 you may have either motorbike or car. You don't need to pass any tests, just fill in the forms and send some pass-port photo's and payment to DVLA and they send it back.

This is issued to allow you to 'Practice' for tests. Once you have passed a DSA Driving qualification, be it for a moped, a motorcycle, a car or a tractor even, you send off your test-pass certificate and are awarded a Full UK Driving licence. BUT it is ONLY a 'full' licence for THAT category of vehicle you have passed tests. It REMAINS a 'Provisional' licence for all categories you have NOT qualified for. (Ie: If you hold a Full licence, for a car, you shouldn't need to apply for another licence to ride a motorcycle!)

The Provisional Licence, however doesn't really let you drive or ride very much. Provided so you may 'practice' for tests, it imposes a lot of restrictions on where and when you may drive or ride. And the main one is that until you have passed the DSA Test, you may ONLY ride or drive while under supervision of qualified instructor.

There is but ONE exception to this, and that is for motorcyclists, who, due to legacy laws from the days when supervising a learner rider by radio was not practical, are allowed to ride either a moped, or a 'Restricted; Learner-Legal' motorcycle up to 125cc and 14.5bhp, whilst displaying L-Plates; but you must not carry passengers (pillions) nor use motorways. AND provisional Entitlement has to be 'Validated' by completing an approved CBT course and obtaining the completion certificate.

What is CBT?

CBT is Compulsory Basic Training. TRAINING, it is not, repeat, NOT a 'Test'. Simply means you have had the FIRST LESSON!

It is NOT a riding qualification; it doesn't mean you have 'earned' your 'learner-licence', it doesn't mean you are a competent rider, and it does NOT teach you 'everything' you may need to know to be able to pass the actual licence tests!

At the end of it, IF you have reached a 'satisfactory' (very low!) standard of competence throughout the course, you are awarded your DL196, or CBT (Completion) Certificate, that validates the provisional entitlement of your licence, that lets you START riding on the roads, unsupervised, on a 'Learner-Legal' Motorcycle, for up to two years.

I go into a lot more about CBT & what you do, and how it is organised, in Tell me more about CBT?, so keeping it brief, here. The Course is designed so that an average student ought to be able to complete the course in a day, and be able to start riding, RELATIVELY safely. (Though depending on how much you have to learn, and how long it takes to master the exercises, SOME students may have to come back for 'further' training. They do NOT 'fail' CBT, they merely do not 'complete' the course to satisfactory standard)

IT'S YOUR FIRST LESSON

As such, before you invest ANY money in a bike, or gear, or 'anything', its a very good way to have a go, and see if you actually LIKE riding a bike. It ISN'T something for every-one, and some people struggle, and decide after that biking really isn't for them. Though, MOST I have to say, usually leave their CBT fired with enthusiasm and even more eager than when they started.

IT'S NOT A TEST

So, you DO NOT have to practice for it; you do NOT have to do ANYTHING much before hand; just turn up and do, and if you have any questions; ASK THEM! That is what the course is for. It is your introduction to biking.

Its a Day-Out, doing a new thing. When you book, you ought to be given some advice on what you'll need. Some schools will provide pretty much everything; bike, helmet, gloves, water-proofs. Some even offer lunch! However, 'School' rider-wear is often not that err... 'nice'... and most people prefer to buy and bring their own 'kit' before hand. Again, I offer advice on this in Tell me more about CBT?, but potted version is talk to the school, ASK what you should bring. Probably, "Crash-Helmet, Gloves, Lunch, Common sense, and wear 'sensible' out-door clothing, and check the weather forecast before you dress!

CBT is to help you get a bit clued up, and we TRY and make it fun. So DON'T worry about it. Its just a day out, playing with motorbikes. Your first lesson; You don't NEED to know anything about them before you begin, and it WONT make you an expert in a day, but it will give you a good start.

DO I Have to Do CBT?

YES!

OK, actually, there are a few exceptions. BUT WHAT THE HECK! If you have to ask, then YES YOU DO!

Generally ANY new rider will have to complete a CBT course to gain their DL196 form, to validate the entitlement of their provisional licence to ride on the road.

If you check the Directgov website; there are some confusing exceptions and exemptions; some drivers have exemptions under what are known as 'Granddad-Rights' because they gained provisional entitlement before CBT was 'invented' (circa 1990 ISTR). There is a raft of convolutions around moped licences for car licence holders that get quite confusing too.

BUT, ultimately, if you want to ride a powered-two-wheeler.. that's instructor speak for a moped, motorbike or scooter, by the way, on the roads... JUST do the ruddy course!

If you DON'T by dint of one of these wonderful 'exemptions' ACTUALLY need the Certificate? Well, what the heck. Damn site better to have the form and NOT need it, than have to argue about it with some half clued up beurocrat that expects to see it!

Meanwhile JUST for the sake of; the course IS a good start, and it WILL teach you something, and that 'something' could just be the one thing that saves your life, OR points on your licence, OR a painful and or expensive accident!

I used to teach CBT courses, I ought to 'Know it all' you would hope! Well, I sat in on my Girlfreind's CBT course last year, and it wasn't SUCH a vital detail, but I picked up some hints and tips on motorcycle maintenance, an easier way to do something, and some suggestions about looking after my crash-helmet and avoiding 'glare' on the visor. We can ALL learn something new!

Its a VERY worth-While course, for ANY-ONE starting out riding a motorbike, or coming back to riding one after some years break.

So JUST 'do-It'!

I don't see the point in getting a licence; why should I bother?

The Provisional Licence Validated by CBT is NOT a 'Licence-to-Ride' its a 'learner's permit', a chance to get some practice so you can take the tests and get the 'Proper' Licence.

Every OTHER motorised road-user HAS to pass their tests BEFORE they are allowed on the road, unsupervised. Fact that motorcycles are the exception is actually rather bizarre, given that motorcycles are the mort dangerous form of motorised transport, and unsupervised L-Platers the MOST likely to crash!

The FULL Motorcycle Licence is your PASSPORT to ALL biking has to offer & ONCE you have it, you have it for LIFE!

Well, with the qualification, that during the first two years, under the new drivers act, you don't get it revoked, or after that, suspended by being an arse! Other than that; once you have the entitlement its ON your licence as long as you hold it. JOB DONE. And....

it is a FULL Licence, NOT a 'Big-Bike' Licence!

No-One is going to take it off you, if you don't go out and buy a bike over 200cc within six months of getting it or anything! You can ride a 'Small' bike on a Full-Licence same as you can a big one!

And, OK, you may have a hundred and one reasons NOT to think it's IMPORTANT enough to do as LONG as you can get out and ride a 125 on L-Plates without it, WHY bother? Just keep repeating CBT every two years.

I have heard EVERY single excuse for 'perpetual L-Plating' from perpetual L-Platers they can think of, and there is NO real valid reason for it. End of the day, boils down to Laziness, and ignorance. Or possibly JUST laziness, not being bothered to go find out the facts!

BUT, Lets hear a few of them out?

I only want a scooter to get to work. I don't want a big-bike. So why waste money on paying for tests?
I'm 18, I cant afford to insure a car, so I only want a bike, until I can afford to buy a car?
I only ride for fun, got an RS125 'full-power', and that's expensive enough to keep on the road; If I did tests I'd want an R6 or something, and I cant afford that, not for the miles I do!
I'm over 21, I cant afford to 'Do-DAS'

Yeah! an ALL to common attitude, amongst scooter riders. You buy a scooter because its CHEAP, so why spend money you DON'T have to! Tests cost money, and if you can get to work without them, why buy'em? Same with riding as a stop-gap until affording a car, and the more bizarre notion of a 'cheap' week-end 'Toy' bike. Almost all of them MONEY is a big part of the argument.

Well, IF you can afford to ride a bike, ANY bike, you can bludy well afford to take the sodding tests, mate!

The tests cost a mere £121.50 (as 2012) over and above CBT to let you wobble about an UNQUALIFIED hazard on the roads. Elsewhere I go into the costs of getting on the road, and if you can get a Learner-Legal Motorcycle, taxed, tested and road-worthy, afford to buy a helmet, insurance, and stick petrol in the ruddy thing, you will be doing damn well, to do so for under £1000. More realistically you will be looking at having to spend, £1500 - £2500 'all in'. £121.50 in THAT greater scheme of stuff is PEANUTS. And if you cant budget THAT right at the start, DON'T BOTHER even trying!

If you don't pass the bike tests within the first two years provided by your first CBT certificate? Well, you will have to repeat the CBT to extend your licence entitlement to carry on riding. THAT can be as expensive as simply doing the tests!

But WHY would you NOT take the tests? Either you are too lazy OR you don't think you are good enough to pass.

If you don't think you are good-enough to pass, WHAT THE FRIGG are you doing on the road?!?!?!?

Tests are there to set a basic level of competence, if you haven't got that, then you shouldn't be there. You are a DANGER to yourself and others!

Many DO seem to think that the tests are 'Very-Hard', but really, what they are asking you to show them is that you can ride around a few cones without falling over, and can ride on the road, in real traffic for forty minutes, not break any laws, or hurt any-one! If you are riding to and from work or college every day, you are PROBABLY already doing 90% of what they expect!

I only want a scooter to get to work. I don't want a big-bike. So why waste money on paying for tests?

See: I Only want a 'little' bike, It's not THAT dangerous, is it? Its NOT like I'm jumping straight on a loonie-big-bike!. You are not 'protected' in anyway, pretending to be a learner, riding a lightweight. Its JUST as dangerous, AND your economic argument's DO NOT hold water.

Repeating CBT every two years, is as expensive as doing the tests.

The Idea that a 'Learner-Legal' HAS to be 'Cheap' is also a fallacy. Yes they CAN return very good mpg, BUT; the actual bike is a LOT more expensive than it needs be JUST because it's learner legal. With a FULL licence you have access to the whole panoply of motorcycles, and where you will struggle to find a 'good' Learner-Legal for under £1000, you can get any number of VERY good bigger bikes for the same money.

BUT, for the super-tight economy-commuter, there is a very big 'bargain basement' of machines in the 'forgotten' capacity class from 150cc to 400cc; machines that often have hardly any more performance than a Learner-Legal, but only Full-Licence holders, most of whom having qualification to have a much more interesting machine, simply DON'T WANT!

These bikes, are often half the price or LESS than a similar 'Learner-Legal' machine, AND frequently an AWFUL lot less to insure. They cost no more to run, and frequently return as good mpg, sometimes even better.

So, idea that staying on L-Plates is saving you money is a fallacy. IF you wanted super-cheap wheels, the FULL-LICENCE, Is the pass-port NOT just to bigger, more powerful and more exiting motorcycles, but to ones that can save you EVEN more money.

I'm 18, I cant afford to insure a car, so I only want a bike, until I can afford to buy a car?

So TAKE the ruddy tests and EARN your road-space like any-one else then! As the Scooter-Commuter; you aren't saving any money wobbling about on L-Plates. Use some of that 'saving' you are making to get the ruddy tests! Its just LAZINESS not bothering, and laziness on a bike is NOT a good way to survive.

I'm over 21, I cant afford to 'Do-DAS'

So? Why do you THINK that because you're re over 21 you HAVE do 'Do-DAS'? MORE why do you think that to 'Do-DAS' you HAVE to spend some ridiculous amount of money on an 'Intensive DAS' Course?

This is shear ignorance. You DO NOT have to do a DAS course just because you are over 21. Go read the sections: What is 'DAS'? & Intensive DAS Courses' What's the score?

I only ride for fun, got an RS125 'full-power', and that's expensive enough to keep on the road; If I did tests I'd want an R6 or something, and I cant afford that, not for miles I do!

If you have a 'Full-Power' sports 125, you DON'T have a licence to ride the frigging thing to start with!

The Provisional Licence allows you to ride a bike up to 125cc and 14.5bhp. A Full-Power 'Sports' 125 probably makes something like 25bhp (though undoubtedly you will be convinced it HAS to make 33), and riding one, without a Full-Licence is NO DIFFERENT to riding a 250, or 400, 600 or 1000, you equally DON'T have the entitlement to ride!

It is NOT some bit of criminal 'genius'; it's not what 'every-one' does. Its not 'all part of biking', its certainly not 'expected'.

IT IS ILLEGAL

Got insurance on it? Well, implying that it is learner legal when it isn't, is insurance fraud. You are breaking MORE laws riding a 'cheat' 125 as you would be riding an R6 or whatever you really want, also without Licence or Insurance.....

If you are happy to break these laws, for the sake of the few pennies you probably aren't saving, given that Sports 125's often cost MORE to run than 600's or 750's..... Well, MORE fools logic. You may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb, WHY bother, for the sake of maybe 10-15mph more illegal speed! These bikes may be impressive compared to a 65mph commuter 125, but compared to a 160mph 600? They are STILL not 'quick' or impressive machines to ANY-ONe who knows what they are looking at!

GET THE LICENCE and you can ride that 125 LEGALLY, you could ride the bike you REALLY WANT, LEGALLY, and it will probably be 'Cheaper'! If not, certainly be other bikes that will be!

THE EXCUSES KEEP COMING - But the answer always remains the same. If you want to ride a motorbike, then GET A LICENCE!

All of the excuses get blown away eventually, and it boils down to laziness and ignorance. Its not saving you anything, and the 'Learner-Restrictions' are ENTIRELY self imposed.

If you are OLD ENOUGH to ride a motorbike, if you can AFFORD to ride a motorbike; you are old enough and rich enough to take the tests and have ANY bike you want and can afford, NOT merely a Learner-Legal!

ALL for the sake of taking the tests and getting the PROPER licence.

The Motorcycle Test, Licence Categories & Age Restrictions

To gain a FULL moped or motorcycle licence, there are three tests.

Motorcycle Theory/Hazard Perception

Module 1 'Off-Road' practical test

Module 2 'On-Road' practical test.

These tests are conducted by the Driving Standards Agency, not the school you did CBT with. But the School may offer training to help you pass them.

As from January 19th 2013, there are three 'test schemes'; one for each category of motorcycle licence entitlement, to be applied to the two practical tests, Mod 1 & Mod 2. Plus one for moped entitlement. (Both Practical Tests Mods1 & Mod 2 must be taken on the same class of motorcycle.)

Category AM = Moped

You must be at least 16 years to ride a moped, and to take the full moped licence tests.

You may, upon completion of CBT ride a moped on provisional licence entitlement, without supervision, before passing the full motorcycle tests, though you must display L-Plates and may not carry a pillion passenger.

Test requires a vehicle conforming to the legal specifications of a 'Moped' (see:- What is a Moped?), briefly a 50cc motorcycle, that says 'Moped' on the Registration document! It may be any style of powered two wheeler, like a scooter or a sports-bike, it may be twist & go automatic or have gears; but it must be less than 50cc and not be capable of more than about 35mph.

Both tests must be taken, as for the motorcycle test, and The tests are identical to the motorcycle tests, though allowances are made for the lower performance of the vehicle; eg during the Mod 1 exercises, that normally require a serve and e-stop manoeuvre above proscribed speeds that a moped would not be expected to achieve.

Passing tests under this scheme is awarded with Full Category P licence entitlement, that allows you to ride a moped, which must still conform to moped power, speed and weight restrictions. But without L-Plates and you may carry pillion passengers. Note:- Mopeds may NOT use motorways, irrespective of whether the rider has a full licence of any category. (See also What Can I ride When I have Passed my Tests?)



Category A1 = 'Light Motorcycle'

You must be at least 17 years to ride an A1 category 'Light Motorcycle', and to take motorcycle tests under the A1 test scheme.

You may, upon completion of CBT, ride an A1 / Learner-Legal motorcycle on provisional licence entitlement, without supervision, before passing the full motorcycle tests, though you must display L-Plates and may not carry a pillion passenger, or use motorways.

Test requires a vehicle conforming to the 'Learner-Legal' Motorcycle ( see:- What is a 'Learner-Legal' Motorcycle?), Briefly a machine up to 125cc, with no more than 11Kw/14.5bhp power, but with minimum performance requirements for test; the machine must be over 120cc capacity and capable of 62mph. Again, the machine may be of any style; a scooter, commuter-bike, sports-bike, cruiser etc, and again, may have a twist & go automatic transmission or manual gears.

Passing tests under this scheme is awarded with Full Catagory A1 licence entitlement, that allows you to ride a motorcycle of the same performance specification as is 'Learner-Legal' essentially still an 11Kw/14.5bhp 125cc machine, but without L-Plates. You may also carry pillion passengers, and if you wish, use motorways. (See also What Can I ride When I have Passed my Tests?)

Category AM (moped) entitlement is automatically awarded with A1 entitlement, if not already held.

Catagory A2 = 'Middleweight Motorcycle' / Restricted Licence

You must be at least 19 years to ride an A2 category 'Middleweight Motorcycle', and to take motorcycle tests under the A2 test scheme.

Provisional-Licence entitlement remains that you may, upon completion of CBT, ride an A1 / Learner-Legal motorcycle, without supervision, before passing the full motorcycle tests, though you must display L-Plates and may not carry a pillion passenger, or use motorways.

You may, NOT however ride ANY motorcycle other machine, unsupervised, ahead of passing the full motorcycle test for higher groups (A2 or A3/Full A)

However, you MAY ride a machine compliant with A2 restrictions, on provisional entitlement, IF you are under supervision of a DSA approved Motorcycle Instructor, or DSA Motorcycle Examiner, whilst training or taking tests. (There is NO exemption to this to ride an A2 machine unsupervised to a motorcycle test)

Test requires a vehicle. of at least 395cc with a power output between 25 and 35 kW (33bhp and 46.6 bhp). No upper engine size limit, but the power to weight ratio must not exceed 0.2kW/kg and it must not be derived from a motorcycle of more than double its power. Again, the machine may be of any style; a scooter, commuter-bike, sports-bike, cruiser etc, and again, may have a twist & go automatic transmission or manual gears.

Passing tests under this scheme is awarded with Full Catagory A2 licence entitlement, that allows you to ride a motorcycle of ANY engine capacity, but no more than 35Kw (approx 47bhp.) And may not have a power to weight ratio higher than 0.2Kw per Kg. The machine may be restricted from a model that manufacturers standard specifications claims more than 35Kw, but the standard model may not male more than 2 times the power required for restriction. (See also What Can I ride When I have Passed my Tests?)

After Passing tests, you do not need to display L-Plates. You may also carry pillion passengers, and if you wish, use motorways.

Category AM (moped) entitlement, and Category A1 (125 Only Motorcycle) entitlement, is automatically awarded with A2 entitlement, if not already held.

Category A or A3 = Unrestricted Motorcycle / Direct Access Scheme (DAS)

You must be at least 24 years to ride an unrestricted A category Motorcycle and to take motorcycle tests under the A3 / DAS test scheme. OR you must have held an A2 category licence for a minimum of 2 years. (So, if you pass A2 tests when you are 19-21, you can test again for DAS before you are 24, as long as you have held A2 at least 2 years)

Provisional-Licence entitlement remains that you may, upon completion of CBT, ride an A1 / Learner-Legal motorcycle, without supervision, before passing the full motorcycle tests, though you must display L-Plates and may not carry a pillion passenger, or use motorways.

You may, NOT however ride ANY motorcycle other machine, unsupervised, ahead of passing the full motorcycle test for that group.

However, you MAY ride any machine on provisional entitlement, IF you are under supervision of a DSA approved Motorcycle Instructor, or DSA Motorcycle Examiner, whilst training or taking tests. (There is NO exemption to this to ride an A2 machine unsupervised to a motorcycle test)

Test requires a vehicle over 595cc with a power output of at least 40kw or (53.6bhp). From the end of 2013 the power output will change to at least 50 kW. A minimum weight of 180 kg will also apply. Again, the machine may be of any style; a scooter, commuter-bike, sports-bike, cruiser etc, and again, may have a twist & go automatic transmission or manual gears.

Passing tests under this scheme is awarded with Full Category A / A3 licence entitlement, that allows you to ride a motorcycle of ANY engine capacity or engine power output. This does not necessarily mean that you have to, or that it is a good idea, to jump on the biggest, fastest piece of machinery you can find! (See also What Can I ride When I have Passed my Tests?)

After Passing tests, you do not need to display L-Plates. You may also carry pillion passengers, and if you wish, use motorways.

Category AM (moped) entitlement, Category A1 (125 Only Motorcycle) entitlement, and Category A2 (33Kw or 47bhp 'restricted motorcycle) entitlement, is automatically awarded with full A / A3 entitlement, if not already held.

Automatic Transmission Restrictions

Pretty simple; you may test under any of the above test schemes, on a qualifying bike or scooter. Doesn't matter if it has a manual gear-box, or an automatic transmission, provided it meets other test requirements of engine displacement etc.

However IF you choose to use a machine that has an Automatic Transmission, for your tests, then again, you must use an auto for both Mod 1 and Mod 2 tests, AND if you pass both tests, your licence entitlement will be 'endorsed' with a restriction "Automatics Only", and you may NOT ride a geared machine.

Worth noting; The popular Honda C90 'Step-Through' commuter bike, has a three speed 'crunch' gear-box, and an automatic centrifugal clutch like a twist-and-go, and a number of contemporary motorcycles have engines derived from the old C90 motor, and retain the centrifugal clutch. Many now have a four speed gearbox, and have been bored out to a full A2 complient 125cc. The Honda Inova, is basically the successor to the C90 and has the 125cc 4-speed centrifugal clutch engine; but that engine & transmission is also used in many monkey-bikes, and pit-bikes, which are all A2 test compliant, if road-legal. However without a 'manual-clutch', a little digging with the DSA has revealed they are classed as 'Semi-Automatic' and hence testing on one will gain Auto-Only restriction, the same as testing on a twist & go. Bit of a pity that, as they DO have gears, but still.

When I gained my licence back in 1992, there was only one test scheme; you took the test on any 'learner-legal' motorcycle, up to 125cc that wasn't a moped, and you gained, straight away, a full unrestricted, ride what you like licence. They changed that, and until this year, you had to use a bike between 120 & 125cc, and do all three tests; and if you passed you got a restricted licence, that limited you to 33bhp machines for two years. But either way, it WAS possible to take tests on a 'Twist & Go' Automatic scooter, and gain a Full unrestricted ride what you like motorcycle licence with Auto-Only restriction... which was nie on useless; as there are almost NO automatic motorcycles over 125cc!
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PostPosted: 01:20 - 22 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

No one wants to spend a lot of money on a 125... consequently there is an awful lot of shit out there that can wear an L-Plate, becouse people wont pay for a decent bike, and wont spend time or money on one if they happen to have it, or even are clued up enough to know how; they are learner bikes, so many dont know much at all.

If you want a 125 you have to pay to get a decent one.

And if you want a 'good start' they are worth it.

Most important bike you will buy. Yeah, big bikes are where you want to be, and we can deliberate till the cows come home whether a CBR600 ir better than a YZF600, and which has the better suspension or brakes.... bottom line is that on a bike like that YOU the average punter that buys one for the road will NEVER apreciate the small differences between them, let alone be able to exploit any small advantage they might have, YET these things are 'important' and get a lot of debate and consideration...

the 125 you learn on, the ONE bike where having decent wheels under your arse, so that while you are learning, any wobbling going on is down to YOU and you alone, not some unknown problem with the bikes suspension or steering or suspension; and putting it right isn't pissing in the dark, wondering if its a loose bolt, a worn tyre, a clapped out damper, or you doing something daft....

Get a GOOD 125, and only thing that can make it wobble is YOU.

Makes learning that much easier; makes it an awful lot nicer, makes it a heck of a lot more FUN.

When you have a licence and you have some idea what you are doing... THEN you can actually get away with a slightly more 'tired' bike, that doesn't behave itself so well, becouse you KNOW any wobbling going on at that point is down to the bike, not you!

If you want a good start and you want a 125... well they are, from the start compromised little bikes; compromised by low displacement, low powered engines; compromised by low weight and price constraints; you really dont want more or specifically more unnecessary compromises in a machine that is already hugely compromised.

So, get as good as you can afford.

And YES, buy prices are expensive. SO you have to find more money when you buy.

But buy prices are expensive. SO you'll get more money BACK when you sell....

Best Value For Money 'Training Tool' around at the moment is the Yamaha YBR125.

New they are nudging three grand; which is about 2/3 the price of some more 'posey' 125's like the Yamaha YZF R125 race replica, or the Cruiser style Dragstar, and still a fair bit cheaper than the dirt-bike style XT125.

It is, also three times the price of a generic Chinesebranded 'Bike in a Box'.... but difference is it will still be worth something after you have attached a number-plate and it WILL do 65mph!

Brand new, is the 'best' you can get as far as reliability and known oragin, and working as good as it should, with peace of mind that you have a warranty.

BUTY you pay heavily in depreciation, and a year in, a £2800 YBR is probably worth barely £2K... two years in it will be around £1700, and at three years, around £1500.

First MOT is due at three years, and three or four year old models, priced between £1000 and £1500, are about the vest valkue you can get in the learner legal market.

They have lost all that horrible depciation, and are a half the price they were new. They also have that first MOT to give some confidence that they haven't been thrashed to death in MOT exemption period, and at ABOUT halfd their anticipated service life, probably less than half anticipated life miles will tend to have enough life in them to still be pretty tought and solid and dependable, and not be too wobbly.

Means that buy-sell risk is low. Risk is they wont need much if any thing by way of expensive maintenence or repairs; they will work well for a year or so, and can be sold, for little loss on buy price, cost of ownership, very small, tending to negligible.

So, a £1500 YBR bought, ridden and sold within a year for £1300 costs just £200.

A £900 Chinese Bike in a Box, sold a year on, is lucky to fetch £500, so would have cost £400 and not been as nice to ride or own in the mean time.

A twenty year old CG125 that costs £400, could demand £400's worth of work to get it out of the delapidation of maintenence overdraft old learner-legal commuters so frequently drop into.... might sell for £400, so only cost £400 but still just as expensive as a Bike in a Box, and twice as expensive as a YBR.... abd big risk it wont fix, or if its not fixed, you will get a years intermittent use out of it for your money and have a pile of scrap left at the end of it.

There are few bargains about in the Learner Legal market; but there can be, if you are prepared to pay for them 'up-front'...

That YBR, bought for £1300 selling for £1100 costs you £200, and still leaves you enough cash to go get a very useful 'big-bike', if thats what you want.

So where should you go now?

Well, experience is good, but bad experience isn't!

Straight out of CBT, you can go get a 125 and ride around for two years, learning by your mistakes... which can hurt.... and if twenty five years trials riding has tought me ONE thing, its teenagers bounce better! Older you get, more falling off seems to HURT!

Also not likely to teach you much about how to pass a test, though might boost your confidence a bit.

alternative is to skip 125's and do DAS, which for most means an intensive course of between three and five days, riding around with an instructor telling you what to do through an ear-piece,m giving you lots of false confidence, and taking a lot of money off you to do little more than fullfill legal requirement to supervise you riding a 'big-bike' before qualified... and I dont say that glibly, until recently I WAS an instructor.... Intensive DAS courses are a lot of money to satisfy impatience!

Once you have done your DAS course, where you will have been tought little about surviving the world of big bikes, but given a lot ot test-tricks to get you through tests, and what you might have learned about survival riding, you probably wont remember, fast in, fast out, in the cramming going on, and with little real experience to give any of it meaning or relevence......

You will come out with a full licence able to jump straight onto any bike you like, and ride it unsupervised....

And a few moments after you do so.... you will be wondering, "What do I DO!..... Theres no voice in my ear to tell me what to DO!... what did the bloike say about box junctions! I cant remember!"

This is not good, and you will be like a CBT fresh newbie on a 125, left to learn by your own mistakes...... only instead of it being a 10 or 14bhp 125, with a 60-70mph top speed..... it COULD be a 1000cc hyper bike that can out accelerate an F1 car, and reach 180mph before you can actually THINK! "Oh Shit!"

NOT! that 125's are, by dint of restricted performance MUCH better.

Often dismissed as 'Toy' or 'Kiddie Bikes', they are still credible motorcyles. You may have noted from the sig-line below I have a little fleet of them; and they are ALL fast enough to exceed national speed limit. and they are ALL quick enough to out accelerate MOST traffic. They will even stay with moderately fast cars, driven with spirit point to point, if I try hard enough.

Even a 125 has enough performance to get you into a LOT of trouble....

BUT, they do have merit. They will get you into trouble slower, and they will TEND to give you more warning, and they will TEND to demand more effort from you to be so foolish!

Bike bikes you CAN take liberties with; they have more weight, which can make them more daunting, but that mass also gives them momentum, which means it damps clumsiness and flatters poor riding, a lightweight will show up much more clearly. More power and more flexible engines will also demand less work from the rider, so again, let you get away with more, and be more lazy.

So 125s DO have merit as a training tool, they will treated with respect help you develop balence and control more acutely.

BUT, getting on and getting out, learning by mistakes is not great.

Intensive DAS courses get you a licence, but thats pretty much al they do, and can leave you on something very scary to learn by errors.

If you go 125, and its my reccomended route;' book weekly lessons on your own bike, to back up CBT, and Learn by other peoples mistakes and accumulated wisdom!

It hurts less! and doesn't take many skuffed exhausts or broken brake levers before its cost less too!

A two hour lesson; gives you enough time to learn something, without it being a blurr of information.

You then have all the time you want to go practice what you have learned, on your own time; get it sussed, and go back. AND with some road riding between lessons, more experience to give what you are tought meaning and relevence that also helps it 'stick'.

Better still though; that experience can direct questions to ask your instructor, to milk thier knowledge for all its worth, and get stuff you would NEVER get on an Intensive DAS, simpoly becouse no one would think to tell you, and you dont know enough to ask!

For a complete beginner, seven or eight two hour, weekly lessons ought to be all you need to get to test standard AND have some good arsenol of learning to survive behind it.

You now have choice becouse just becouse you TRAIN on a 125 doesn't mean you have to TEST on a 125, and you could test under DAS rules, to get ful lunrestricted A group licence.

No worries if you want, you can save pennies (at the moment; new laws come into force in a year) and test on your own 125, which will give you a full A group licence but with 2-year probationary 33bhp power limit.

This is 'enough' to be useful and if you didn'ty envissage stepping up to hyper bike at the earliest, gives plenty of options, and most 500 commuter twins, good for over 100mph and no small risk to licence, if restricted (standard they are around 45bhp and good for possibly 120mph)

This is the good way around; BUT if you are ardent on a DAS course, forwarned about the lost voices syndrome; and the DAS pass death rate amongst older riders on bigger bikes, and want to substitute for post test training, thats another way around it.

From where you are; cant make your choices for you; or make them any easier, just give you the right ideas... just when training some-one I can teach them to ride, I can teach them survival techniques, how they apply them after, really up to them..

I merely point out that they set the bench-mark standard to judge the alternatives, and as an all-round compromise, they ARE a very hard package to better.

My personal opinion of them as a 'motorcycle', is that they are possibly one of THE most boring, uninspiring and generally soulless motorcycles ever created... geez even the old Honda CB100N had 'some' sort of charecter...... you cant even ridicule them for thier styling! They are just... JUST... well, about the only thing you can say about them is "Well, at least its not a scooter!" And even in that anathmic world of engineering perversity there are machines that stand out, and have some 'interest'!

BUT, the YBR is not the be-all and end all and a paragon of motorcycling, it's about as inspiring as a washing machine.

Actually I have got more exited by a washing machine... I even had one with more charecter... used to jump out and mug me every time I had to walk past it to go to the loo!

But; like a washing machine.... it does the job.

The appeal of the YBR is in those numbers, that make it the least-risk, generally most cost effective way into biking.

Practically; its a no frills bike; there are plenty of them around; its an easy ride machine; just as many of them about; Its a 'dependable' low maintenance machine; fair few of them in the arena too. But there aren't MANY that wrap all that in one cost effective solution. Honda CBF comes close. but not 'quite' so economically.

Representing such a very very well 'optimised' package, of such keen 'value', (even brand new, they are not as bad as some!) its hard to beat, and I plaud it, msainly becouse if you want to go for something different, it sets the base line to illustrate how and where the compromise is being shifted.

Often reccomended, and much loved by more mature Learners; Honda Veradaro. Nice bike. But expensive. Physically large; its nice and comfy, especially for larger riders, and looks like a 'big-bike'. Down sides, are its not so ecconomical; its a tad more powerful, but not much faster; Size can make it bulky, and harder to manouver, while taller seat and higher centre of gravity mean its not SO easy to swing through test cones. Practically, doesn't push the compromises too far, as a learner commuter; except in area of costs. But again, more expensive, you pay more, but get more back. But not AS ecconomical on running costs as a YBR, so cost of ownership likely to be higher; while Honda spares and lots of plastic; any repairs likely to be expensive.

Going Daft; Aprillia RS125. One of the most expensive LEarner Legals on the market. Actually on DSA approval list with warnings that demand examiner must see 'valid' proof of restriction before letting you sit test on one; becouse they are a highly strung 28bhp race bike with lights. Physically large, they look like a bigger bike, and unrestricted they go like one. Bludy expensive to run though; 70mpg is 'good' going, and you have to chuck 15p's worth of high grade two stroke oil in the oil reservoir for every £1.35liter of petrol! Race crouch riding possition isn't so comfortable; restricts visibility and makes observations, and making clear obviouse Examiner approved observations harder work. Great brakes for e-stop, but horendouse steering lock for cone work, and riding possition that doesn't give best control. We then get to the matter of running costs and pistons listed as service spares. They demand a lot of maintenence; new they are expensive; and looked after to the service schedule effoff expensive. "nd hand; thrashed by a few no-little kiddie-go-kwick owners, often struggling to keep up with the HP installments, and more interested in spending money to go faster, rather than not break down; they get even MORE expensive to run, ignoring that service schedule, becouse costs are too high for so many owners to bear. Probably one of the worst learner bikes you can get; pushing the compromises SO far to get style and an idea of 'performance'.

Yamaha XT125. Dirt bike. Four stroke single cylinder engine, its a YBR on stilts and knoblies. Compromised for off-road work, and on-road work its never going to be master of either. Not bad, and off-road riding can be fun. But bending bikes falling off on dirt (they DO bend; another thing 25 years trials riding has tought me!) dents budget, and doesn't bode well for a 'smart' bike to turn up to test on! Nible geometry makes them easier than many to hustle through cones; but that advantage hedged by higher CofG making it mnore precariouse; and knobly tyres and soft suspension making it less sure footed; most on manouveres like the e-stop. Pretty robust in low speed 'spill' though. Again, compormise is being skewed, and both performance and easy riding being compromised for style and off-road ability.

Honda Shaddow; Cruiser; a little Harley. Lots of style; and lots of money. New they are over four grand. Look big to people that dont know any better; and look 'cool' to misguided cruiser fans. But little 125cc engine they DONT 'cruise' engine that takes three gear changes to get to 30mph does not suggest a 'lazy' easy ride a cruiser ought to be. The added weight they carry makes them slow, and hard work to manouver; and the lazy chopperesque riding possition and steering geometry and long wheel base REALLY make them hard work to get through cones, do U turns and generall do whats needed for lessons and test.

Could carry on down the list; but you get the idea; moving away from the regulation 'learner-coimmuter' you are frequently loosing more than you gain, or paying through the nose for it, or both!

The old CG125 is worth mention; now a 'Cult' bike, the 'decent' £300 CG, is a long lost myth. With the reputation of being bullet-proof or nie on indestructable; too many have become victims of thier own reputation; bought as cheap learner-commuter wheels, with 'low maintenence' becoming 'no-maintenence' owners loath to spend money on a bike they dont intend to keep,m and only bought because it was cheap. Decent ones now fetch particularly 'daft' money for what they are, on the legacy of the reputation; and you can spend as much on a half tidy CG as a much newer and probably more useful YBR. Down in the bargain basement; they are flogging scrappers for the money that would get you road worthy (if not 'nice) wheels of other make or model.

Yamaha YZF R125; the latest four stroke Kiddie Go Kwik, must have teenage loonie bike; Few on the second hand market becouse they are so new; Still close to £5K show-room price. All looks not much performance. Compromised like an Aprillia for rideability, without the boon of cheap power doubling de-restriction. Bit easier on consumeables though; but already seen bikes out there 'written off' for a low speed spill just cracking the fairlings! All for the price of a Suzuki SV650!

Honda's CBR125, by comparison makesa a lot more sense if you want that 'kind' of style. Its not the full monty, and CBR doesn't make much pretense at being more than a lamb in toys r us wolf-cub outfit. Not as compromised for rideability, but still 'some'. Easier on spares and service, but still more expensive than pure commuters; but does offer a couple of extra mph. And costs CAN be 'not so bad' rated against learner commuters; they are another variation on the compromise, and not skewing it so far, not prove too hard a one to bear, but its still a compromise.

So into the bargain basement; Mentioned CG's. But loads of different 'stuff' in there. And most of it, I would find hard to reccomend to a complete newbie, simply becouse so little is in useful, reliable, confidence inspiring condition. There are some machines worth thought though.

Chinese bike-in-a-box; £900 new, they are dirt cheap second hand; usually with good reason; they have fallen to bits! BUT, if you have some idea how to tighten bolts, adjust bearings and dont mind getting your hands a bit dirty; or even masocistically enjoy it (like me!), for £3-400 picking a bike thats managed to get through at least one MOT, and you can ride value out of it, as long as you dont expect the full performance of Jap branded bikes, can buck the odds and prove cheap long term commuter wheels.

If you JUST want a bike to get experience on, possibly do some training; you dont want to use it for tests; hiring a school bike, possibly a DAS bike; then the sub 120cc machines can be very useful.

The old 80's Two-Stroke 100's were great little bikes; Until early 90's you could take tests on them, but rule change means that for last twenty years if you want full A-Group you have to test on full size 125. But when they were testable; they offered almost the performance of full 125's and a lower insurance group, and frequently lower running costs. Still offer that; BUT like the CG, bought as budget learners, often didn't get the maintenence they deserved. Have thier fans now though, and again, if you know a rubber band from a power band and spannies from spandex and dont mind getting your hads dirty or enjoy it; they can be bought for reletive penies, and prove easy mechanics and a lot of fun.

Its in my sig-line; Honda CB125 'Super-Dream'; ought to mention it. Probably the most thoroughly considered; best engineered, most sophisticated; most capable, 'Do everything' Learner 125 ever made... it was concieved as a sports-bike to go head to head with its two stroke rivals of the era on performance; and it succeeded. Concervatively styled, it was intended to still be comfy and give you a command riding possition like a commuter, with good balence control and visability, BUT still be comfy and comfy enough for long er runs, even touring..... it was a great bike.... but looked boring and it was over priced... and today, big grin factor for masocists like me to get one working like it should... I have done two this year... but GEEZ! Been a heck of a lot cheaper and easier to have just bought YBR's! Most out there are pretty dire; I know I own most of them!

Also in Sig line, Yamaha DT125. Its a legend. Mines a late 70's air cooled model. Actually more powerful than later water cooled bikes in restricted form. Mine is a classic. But they are all 'road bikes' with knoblies, more at home on tarmac than dirt, and main atraction is the reletively reliable, and easily tuned two stroke engine that can offer around 20bhp, and not blow up as often as things like Aprillias or Cagivas. Hold value well, and work pretty good for a dirt bike. BUT, compromised being a dirt bike, and the later ones especially are no where near as mechanically freindly as other options, while most will have suffered the tuning attempts of teenage tits over the years, and can be a 'challenge' to scrub up and make good!

YBR's aren't the be all and end all of Learner-Bikes, and I dont make the kind of comments people are want to, like they do about CG's, that they are tough as boot, or you cant go wrong with one.

They aren't indestructable; and you can buy a lemmon as easy as any other bike. BUT.... on the whole, they are a damn well balenced compromise, and almost perfectly optimised as a learner-commuter, and possibly the least risk, best value route into motorcycling...

But they are a washing machine; a tool for the job, and not hugely inspiring for anything BUT doing the job, and doing it cheaply.

Great if you have the money to buy into that bargain; and you are happy to make those short term sacrifices having somethiung so utterly utiliterian, for long term gains of making it cheap and easy to get licence before stepping up to something more exiting.

Otherwise; there are plenty of other alternatives; to suit budget and aspirations, that can work, or be made to work just as well for any one.

But the YBR DOES set the standard for them to meet....

Battery acts as charge reservoir; capacitor acts as charge damper.
Imagine a capacitor as a spring in a brake line; transmits the force but takes out any shock in the line; where a reservoir would accumulate pressure and let it be used for longer.

I have 6v electric Yamaha DT, and am messing around with a 12v pit bike regulator, to convert to 12v. Generator is supposed to chuck out enough volts, and using both coils, the charge circuit and direct lighting circuit, ought to provide enough amps to keep small 12v battery charged to power 12v lights without the low rev 'drop of' direct lights suffer, while 12v offers more compatability for modern upgrades like LED's to lower power demand and make more juice available; possibly even a PIR headlamp for more light without less amps still.

This may be possible on the CB125 single's generator.

Alternatively; sticking with 6v, knowing 6v systems of old, even with a battery low rev lamp dimming is a pain. Many bikes of the era ran 'direct lights' so they didn't get any top up from the battery so were entirely dependent on genny revs for volts; battery only powered occassional equipment like horn and indicators.

Using a 6v regulator, possibly from an early 6v CB200 Benley, and routing direct light circuit and charge circuit through it to charge a battery to power all equipment, including lights, would be a good move, and make electrics more reliable.

Another alternative, still being toyed with for the DT, is if the genny and pit-bike regulator dont prove good enough to convcert to 12v... going 12v 'low amp' conversion anyway, using LED bulbs for indicators, dash tell-tales, side, tail & stop lamp, and a solid state low consumption indicator flasher, and a 35W PIR headlamp, and running the system 'Total Loss', having two batteries; one on the bike, one on charge in the house!

Lights dont HAVE to be self sufficient....

On a 78 model bike; you also don't HAVE to have indicators, and need only have the brake lamp work of one brake lever.

Two types of battery commonly out there

Standard batteries are wet acid filled. They have to be mounted terminals to the top or the acid sloshes out through vents.

'Sealed' batteries are often wet acid filled, but unvented. These tend not to have the charge/discharge rating of vented batteries, and are not usually reccomended for bikes or cars. Competition bikes and cars often use Sealed 'Gel' batteries that have an acidic gelly (yes basically you make a jelly like you would for a trifle of kids birthday party, but with sulphuric acid rather than water! And fill the battery with it!) More stable, can be mounted in any orientation to suit, and wont slosh acid. But expensive.

For your wants, I would sugest that a sealed, preferably gel-cell battery, of the same or greater amp-hour capacity, would be more suitable. You can find a place to site it to convenience, and tilt it to suit. Meanwhile, need not be bigger than original; external dimensions can be smaller on modern batteries.

If you are not putting heavy charge or discharge rates on the battery; if you have currently a direct lighting system, battery charged by excess genny amps at a trickle to power indies and horn, you probably could get away with a 6v 'sealed' burglar alarm battery; these are fairly cheap on e-bay, but check Maplins for specs and dimensions; they are designed to hawve very long service lifes, typically around ten years, but with very low charge and discharge rates, sat in a box on the side of a house providing independent suply for a lamp and claxon if the alarm goies off and the mains supply is cut. They are commonly de-rated for consumer products; thier life expectancy shortened, exceeding the specified charge and discharge rates, for use in things like car battery 'booster' packs, or kids ride on toys and stuff; Charge rates exponentailly reduce battery life, so double the charge/discharge current, battery life drops by a quarter, BUT, you can go quite a long way before you are down to the one or two years 'life' of a conventional bike battery.

If you want least-fuzz, solution, keeping the electrics 'as standard' but able to put battery where you like; I think this is what I would suggest as most suitable; Burglar Alarm battery in the 3-5Ah capacity range your CB-J battery is likely to be in, probably barely any difference in price to the OE spec wet & vented battery.

Depends how adventurouse you want to get; BUT do have a think about going 12v. With low wattage LED's sucking milli-amps instead of amps, you can make a small capacity 12v battery last a long time, even if you run it 'total loss'; and you have far more scope to start choosing from far more 'standard' 12v equipment, thats often better and or cheaper than whats available in now rarely used 6v components.

The UK CB125TD- Super-Dream is de-tuned to the old 13.5bhp learner limit.
Unless it runs readily off the end of the speedo, it probably isn't making that due to normal wear & tear and neglect.
Well fettled UK 'Reduced Effect' models will top a genuine 70, and put the speedo needle well past the last tick at 80.

The 142cc big-bore kit is the largest piston size you can get into the standard 125 barel's liner. The extra 17cc is fuck all.

They can be bored bigger; other variants of the engine have been stretched by the factory as far as 233cc for the CM250 or CB-Two-Fifty. But not without machining the crank-cases to fit bigger liner barels.

Head is good enough to flow the air needed to make almost double the power of the Reduced Effect UK Super-Dream; so you cant really gain anything by trying to hack the ports bigger with a dremel; and the valves are about as big as can possibly be crammed in the combustion chamber as it stands.

What limits the power on them is the cam-shaft. And unfortunately, there aren't very many options here by way of after-market hop-up profiles. Best we have is the factory;s 'Full-Power' cam which, on a well built engine, and with properly set up and sized carbs can, on the 125 bottom end achieve 17bhp. However these cams are rarer than rocking horse do-dah. The correct carbs to go with them even rarer.

Can bore the thing as far as you like, really, even the whole hog, bored and stroked to 233cc, you wont easily better the power JUST that camshaft offers.

The biggest 'family' engine using the CB125's 41mm stroke, was the over-square screamer CB200 motor, whose barrels are inconveniently incompatible with the 125 bottom end, and which only just made same power as full-power 125.

The most powerful of the 233 engines was the CMX Rebel, that I think was rated at about 21bhp, running paired CV carbs, on a 360 bottom end. CB-two-fifty chucked out about 19 depending on who you ask, on a single carb, but crank-cases opened up, to take bigger barrels, long stroke 360 crank, these engines dont offer solutions to tune a 125 super-dream as micing bits between 360 crank and 180 crank engines will result in mashed valves the cam opening valves on an up-stroke when crank ought to be doing a down stroke.

So.... 142cc? For a tenner, it ent going to hurt; but any more power you may get is going to be mostly from new piston & rings and rebuild finding more compression, not the extra cubes!

But for a tenner?

Had three barel sets in the last twelve months and done as many rebuilds. I didn't bother with the 142 kit. Keeping the stock bore size keeps things a known quantity, and saves a few penies.

Budget around £200 minimum, for gaskets, cam-chain & barel kit. You are advised to swap case seals too. And worthwhile new cam-chain tensioner blades. While you have it apart you can get seriouse and start spending seriouse money; roughlt £200 to get crank presed apart and re-assembled with new bearings and then re-balenced. Then theres the oil pump, clutch (worth douing, new plates & springs less than £20), gearbox bearings, etc. All mounts up, and if you skimp 'too' much you as like have to do it all again!

TBH with that list you are on a break-point.

Its not worth £300 as a dire runner, though you might get it, if you are lucky. If it has tax and test, its worth £250 to a nieve optimist (or a not so nieve, but ever hopeful dissolusionist optimist, like me!)

Top end rebuild it, you WILL be spending £120, and its a bastard if they go together nice and easy... because if it goes together easy, means cam-chain is stretched and it WILL snap!

Add £50 for decent second hand exhaust, you are up to £200 region.

Value bike at £250 and you are nudging over the £400 'value' and you still haven't sorted tyres, or the bottom end, or I suspect a host of other bits its likely to need sorting, like brakes and steering bearings and fork-seals.

These things are worth around £750 top book, for a 'good' example.

You can get Taxed, Tested Runners for around £500... though possibly not THAT much better than what you have.

SO... chucking the sort of meney this bikes likely to 'need' chucking at it to make it 'reliable'...

Will you get the value out of it, becouse you are going to HAVE to get the value out of it by using it, you are unlikely to get it selling...

Skimp to keep it serviceable and make it up to scratch, yes, £200-£250, you are just about on tipping point.

If you want to do it justice and get reliability, you are looking more like £500 order to get that bottom end tended to and new cam-chain in there.

Either way, head will need stripping; guides, & valves checking. Valve stem seals renewing; valves ground; & valve seats ground.

Now I wouldn't necesserily be put off by all this; but I know the bikes, and have heap of ready spares. And my threshold would be £250 buy price + £500 'work' = top book bike... I might just break even on, and get some proffit in the use and playing with it.

NOW: bikes come and go and with 55 weeks to no more testing for full A licence on a 125..... I would be looking on any £500 I might scrape together to fix bike very hard and pondering.

£121.50 is the test-fees. £65 per session to hire a school bike to do them.

Flogging the Super-Dream as a scrapper/project would cover that.

Leaving you in hand by repair costs, to go look for something elce, that, need not be a 125.

I bought my CB750 T&T'd for six months for only £450; if you dont look glamourouse there are a lot of big bikes out there for that kind of money; and, yes, I agree they may not be any better than your Super-Dream, but you are in the bargain basement; and its beggers and choosers.

And ecconomically, unless you are very daft and or unlucky, you WOULD get a useable 'big-bike' with a bit more life in it than your 125 currently has, that IS more likely to prove more reliable than doing cheap-skate top end rebuild.

Super-Dream, if you want to percevere with it; you will have to do the job thoroughly; and do full engine build, even if you dont go too farf rebuilding cranks and stuff. Doing the rest of the bike, you will be looking at having to chuck in the order of £500+ to do engine, zorsts, tyres, and a few mechanical bits, like greasing rear suspension (If that needs overhaul, has any siezed links SCRAP, it really isn't worth fixing!) renewing steering bearings, reconditioning forks and possibly servicing brakes.

They are a fantastic Learner-Legal, and a very good budget commuter, BUT big investment to make one 'good' and only ecconomicval IF you run life out of it as people will not pay what these bikes are worth for a 'good' one, when they can for same money have brand new Chinky or second hand YBR.

From your extended list of works.... THINK HARD


I'm going to stick that one at the top of the list; I know you have put it at the bottom; you want reliable transport more; but...

£121.50 + £130 to hire a decent bike to do it on. You'd have to spend the £121.50 at some point anyway, if not on tests, repeat CBT, or testing for 125 only licence.

IF there's not enough money knocking about to get this bike how you want it; SHORT TERM, £130 for a School bike, is a lot more do-able, and gets that one OFF the books; clear.....

If that happened; would you STILL want a 125 commuter? Would you still want THIS 125 commuter?

Lets start by floating that idea?

£250... full licence....

Cutting losses, thats what you would get for the Super-Dream'...

Leaves you the £500 fix-fund to go look for a 33bhp restrict 'big-bike', and they are out there at that kind of money, and IF you want to fix up a bike, and a bike you are going to keep, then something like my CB750, may be more worthy a 'project'....

PONDER and tell me your thoughts on that...

Meanwhile; without burrying too deep into this ere Super-Dream.

WHY don't you want to take tests on it? You said exhausts...
You said it was running rough, but with shagged exhausts, would run rough.

COULD we get this bike scrubbed up to something a bit 'more' serviceable, without a major renovation?

I have big pile of ready spares; some of them not so 'wonderful', but serviceable.

IF we could get a replacement pip on the thing, and do some carb fiddling... do you think it could be made 'tidy' enough to do tests on?

If so... back to the top; tested; licence in your pocket, would you still want to chuck money and effort at it?

Tackling a Super-Dream 125, head on, and making something worth the effort; well, have a look at Snowies 'Top End' renovation blog on S&T... Build bill topped £2K and she has a borrowed engine at the moment; waiting on me finding funds and bits to build a top end, and tuned benley motor. Doing one that you would REALLY want to keep hold of, costs.

My Blog on the Corporal's renovation, is more doable. I did that one as an 'every-day' practical classic, and I tried (and failed) to bring it in for less than I sold it to Smiler (£750). With the advantage of that big pile of ready spares from the bikes I have broken. Realistically to 'do' a Super-Dream from a £250 'base', including an engine rebuild, you are looking at, £750-£1000, all in.

Your notional £500 budget to get your bike scrubbed up and make nice, is realistic, and you could do a lot; but you wont have a lot in the pot to pretty it up; that will just about tackle the main mechanicals, and ONLY if there are no 'biggies'. Biggies on these bikes:
1/ Engine
2/ Rear Suspension
3/ Front Brake

Rear suspension is £200+s worth if its utterly shot and needs major overhaul with new bushes and shock.

Front brake; its twin piston floating caliper. those two pistons double the overhaul cost, compared to most lightweights brakes. If you need to overhaul the master cylinder; replace the brake hose; replace the pistoins and seals; and pads, and disc,; this one sub-assembly alone CAN cost £200ish.

Engine; prices already mentioned; to 'do' the bare minimum from the cases up, £200 up.

Your budget, doesn't give you much room for niceties; like powder coating the frame, or nicely painting the shiney bits, or making it look 'factory' with decals.

You have all the pottentials I had with the Corporal, and the known starts that above what I did with the Corporal, you need tyres; £60 for hard cheapo's; £90 for nice grippy M45's. And exhaust. I had to find exhaust on the Corp, but uncosted; I took it off one of the scrappers. Front brake I wasn't happy with; again, I circumvented that with bits from a scrapper, and I was 'lucky' with the rear suspension; it coming up with clean and grease and again, shocker from a scrapper.....

THAT is what you are faced with. So back to break-point.

IF you want a CB125 Super-Dream, you have built, with all the satisfaction that offers, and rides really nicely, like they should, and is a joy to own, AND looks good, and LOOKS like its worth all the money and effort.... you are going to have to up the budget, to do some of the niceties, AND cover any maledies like brake or suspension...

So... to do your bike justice.... with a full licence in your pocket....

Is your Super-Dream, worth £1200 to YOU?

I can tell you now, that it wont be worth that to very many people who actually have that money, if you sold it, no matter how 'nice' it was when done.

If so; then yoru £500 budget would get things moving, but realistically, its the old 'double the money' tripple the time' addage. Doing it justice, you need to be prepared to spend up to a grand, over what is sitting infront of you here and now.

And, plenty of scope, if you get carried away, for those costs to escalate, unless you hold the purse strings tightly;

You look at the frame and see add for powder coating £45. Do a quick reckon, and tally up big can of smoothrite and some thinners, plus a couple of brushes and conclude its 'only' and extra £20 for a 'forever' finish.... so, while you are at it, you chuck the swing arm, suspension drop links, head-lamp bracket, steering yokes, indicator brackets, bar clamps, and a few other odds and sods like the centre stand, the brake pedal... and your powder coating bill, goes from £45 for just a frame, to £145, for everything else you COULD have painted out of that £15 can of smoothrite....

You look at second hand exhausts, and ponder similarly, when T-Shock pipes are only £50 a side, and again, brand new pipes; twice the price but more than twice the life.... but your £40 second hand exhuats suddenly becomes a £130, when you get the correct 'pattern' replacements for a super-dream.... but hey-ho, at least they are as shiney as the paint and decals, that has gone from 'a couple of £8 Halfords Rattle-Cans, to two £8 cans of primer, one £10 can of hi-build, two cans of £12 colour coat, two cans of £10 clear coat; one can of £15 petrol-proof laquer, AND £30's worth of vynal decals.....

And YES, 'Done' it ought to be a really nice bike to ride; something a lot more 'special' than a three year old YBR125 that costs the same money, and ought to have a lot more life in it; and be rather more exiting to ride than that or a CG125.....

But it will only be worth the money, let alone the effort to YOU.

It will NOT be a bargain; you will not make money on it; you WILL get a nice bike..... BUT, being realistic, you HAVE to be sure that you will get two to three years use out of it, to get any real value back from it all, before the sell price you might get isn't so gauling. And realistically, it needs to be a bike that when you do decide you want to move up; gets stuck in the garage as a souvineer of your efforts, and early exploits, you can afford to litterally 'write off' and not need to justify against travel.

I cant tell you what to do, and I have laid it out pretty hard, and made it look a non-starter.

Its NOT a complete non-starter. I do these bikes for fun. I would not be put off. BUT I do have some advantages. One is that big pile of ready spares. Other is I have done a few bikes before, including a couple of Super-Dreams. And while the Corporal cost me more to renovate than I sold it for; it was 'within limits' and I had eight months use of the bike, and learned a lot about super-dream foibles in the process, and well... you win some, you loose some, and I have another five bikes to 'do'.

In your shoes; more risk of budget over-run and problem magnifiers; but also better chance you COULD get the value from any excess expendature from use.

BUT, we are up into three year old YBR territoty, you really need to think about the real 'worth' beyoind the numbers and whether its worth it to you, AND nieve optimism dampened IF you can deal with a project of this order.

Helicoiling spark-plug holes?

Remove the Cylinder head; take the head, on its own to an engine re conditioners; and see what they say. If they dont do many motorbike engines, they may refer you to some-one that does, becouse Super-Dream has small plugs, they may not have drill, taps and coils to do; BUT they will tell you who does.

Fall-Back; if you end up heding down to me to root through ready-spares; I have a very helpful engine reconditioners on my door-step; and if they cant do it; can probably find a replacement head in the pile of spares! (I have clocked a rather scruffy Micron 2-1 system, that's been plated and pin-hole puddle welded, in a couple of places, but is serviceable, and may be some use to you!)

CBT is compulsary basic training; it is not a 'test' but your first riding lesson.

Certificate of completion validates your 'provisional' licence entitlement; is the provided for you to LEARN, not scoot about for the next tow years thinking its the be all and end all.

Motorcycles are THE mjost dangerouse form of motorised transport on the roads, YET the only bludy vehicle we let complete newbies out on, unsupervised. before passing a competancy test.

JUST becouse the bike is small does NOT mean its any 'safer'...

It has two wheels and en engine that ought to be able to get it up to maximum allowable speed limits in this country, or at least pretty bludy close, and out-accelerate most family saloon cars and goods vehicles.

May be small, may be ridiculed, but they are propper motorcycles.

Meanwhile, the light weight; great for making learning easy, becouse its more manageable when you are still a bit wobbly and getting the balence; also doesn't damp any clumsiness in your control inputs so they show up your mistakes and help you correct them and get smooth, fairly easily.

But, they take more effort to ride, needing more work from you due to having so little power, and less weight means they are less inherently stable.

Great for learning, which ought to be the objective.

125's are ecconomical, to a point. More sporty ones can actually be more expensive to run than big bikes. But 'sensible' commuter bikes up to about 500cc can offer some savings over an ecconomy car, and some over 125 commuters can actually be more ecconomical than 125's.

125's being learner legal are horendousely over priced. £800 will get you a tired Honda CG125, I personally wouldn't reccomend* or a ratty YBR125. Same money in the big bike world would buy you a pretty good GS500, half that, a pretty stunning CD200**.

Insurance on 125's; due to being the bikes crashed by learners, is heavily loaded too. My DT125 costs 50% more, a year to insure than my Honda 750, more 'humble' CB125, only £10 less than the 750!

125's tend to be owned by Learners. By defanitiuon, few have much experience or know how, either riding or looking after bikes. They are also of limited performance. AND they are lightweights; build down to a quality to keep prices reasonable and the weight sensible.

Consequently, they are NOT built to 'last' like a high mile, large capacity tourer, and demand a lot more frequent maintenance. Though usually it is fairly undemanding and inexpensive, but they still need it.

They are then bought and ridden by learners; who are shall we say less than 'delicate' with them; making clumpy gear changes, and being heavy handed on the brakes, and endlesly practicing for tests, accelerating away from junctions, braking up to round abouts, doing e-stops, and generally working the bikes hard... and frequently crashing them.... and thrashing them.... AND being just as delicate and sympathitic about the maintenence.

125's have a hard life. They cost a lot; because more people want them than have them for sale; and many of them, newbies remember, wouldn't know what to look at when buying one, or which bikes to walk away from.

And every-one wants a 'bargain'.

Trouble is, when you are learning; you want the best damn wheels under your bum you can get.

Last thing you need when you are a wobbly early rider, is a bike doing some wobling beneath you on its own account, becouse its suspension if clapped out, ot it's bearings buggered, or its frame not straight.

You'd never know whether any thing 'not right' was you, or the bike, or whether thats how things ought to be!

Decent wheels eliminate the variables; and let you get on with the business of learning to ride, and make it a lot more enjoyable.

Unfortunately £800 is only JUST above scraping the dregs of the barel. Benchmark for value for money is a three year old, first MOT fresh Yamaha YBR, that's just young enough to have some confidence its mechanically sound, but just old enough to have a realistic price tag (about £1500) and give you least cost of ownership, needing least maintenence & repairs, and having smallest depreciation.

We also haven't mentioned 'Kit'....

You NEED to be legal a propper motorcycle helmet. They start at around £30, but you buy by fit, not price. A hat that doesn't fit dont save your head, and one thats uncomfortable or mists up, can be worse than useless. Budget up to £150 for a 'decent' hat. If you can get one cheaper that's a good fit, and has decent visor & venting, treat saving as bonus.

Now look out the window. Its December.

You will want, a decent set of wet weathers, some decent riding boots, and some bludy good gloves.

Start with the gloves. Budget another £50-£80 for good gloves. Keep your hands warm so you can control the bike. Also save skin when you fall off. Dont skimp on them.

Boots? Cheapo's start from about £40, and go up to hundreds. £80 ought to get you something fairly warm and moderately water-proof.

Rest you can skimp on if you want. Army surplus stores, and industrial clothing shops can chuck up useful waterproof over torusers and jacket or 'containment suits', that may be cheaper than an all in one bike-suit, though likely to be billowy and baggy in teh wind.

Dedicated biker water-proof over suits tend to be in the £30-£80 region, and are worth the investment.

Under them you can bulk up for warmth and protection with layers; again Army surplus can be useful.

Dedicated biker wear; you are looking at maybe £80 up for textile or leather riding trousers, £100is up for a textile or leather riding jacket.

I advocate avoiding the 'Rhino' or 'akito' 'My First Riding Outfit' all for under £200, boots, trousers, jacket and gloves; especially leathers, even more so this time of year. Leather is niether warm nor water-proof, and its 'protection' is great on a race track, sliding for long distances accross uninterupted tarmac, but on the road, where a slide is likely to be halted pretty soon by something hard and unyeilding, practicality of textiles, is worth while trade off.

So... whats the Total? Realistically, you could easily blow half your £800 budget JUST getting kitted out in bike wear....

Have you factored this into your calculations? Its a big investment; especially if it turns out you cant stand the cold and the dark and the misery of winter riding!

And then there is that 'after CBT'. what beyond your ;first lesson'?

FORGET you can drive a car. Does NOT put you ahead of the game; does not mean you will be a 'safe' rider, and its 'just' getting used to a different vehicle.

As a CBT instructor I have tought FAR too many car drivers to let that presumption be made.

Yes, you have a familiarity with the roads; but almost certain you will also have a lot of bad habbits, and when you start riding a bike, you will almost definitely try reverting to 'driving' the motorbike, rather than riding it; and there are loads of car-driver habbits that you will have to break, to start 'riding', which can make it HARDER for you to learn, and be tought.

Approach it with an open mind. Do not believe you have any 'advantage' or you already know stuff. You WILL know stuff that is transferable; but use that knowledge when it rears as a heads up to enquire, and make comparisons and FIND the differences,

And; you have got a car licence. You wouldn't expect to be allowed to jump straight into a car and drive it, on your own, unsupervised after just the first lesson; and you already KNOW that you did MOST of your learning to drive AFTER you passed your test.

And you are clambering onto a vehicle with the soft-bit (you) on the outside. Helmets, gloves leathers do NOT make you safe.

They are the last line of defence; they dont stop you getting hurt; just limit how much it's going to hurt when all else has failed.

Primary protection; first line of defence, is hazard awareness. Spotting Danger and NOT GOING THERE!

Secondary Protection; Hazard avasion; SHIT! Just got myself into danger/Some-one just shoved me into danger... how do I get OUT of danger!? BRake, steer, accelerate, control the machine, DONT let the accident happen.

Tersiary protection: last l;ine of defence, all else has failed; you didn't spot the danger, couldn't get out of the danger... Oh FUCK this GONNA hurt.... hat, gloves, coat... all it will do is save SOME of that hurt.

We survive on our wits.... keeping these about is us THE most important safety aid we have; and it starts by making sound and informed decissions, and managing risks.

FACT; you stand three times the risk of crashing a motorcycle than you do a car.

FACT; if you crash a motorcycle you are three times more likely to be seriousely injured or killed.

FACT; as a LEARNER rider, you are at LEAST three times more likely to crash than a qualified rider, who is still probably three times more likely to crash than a rider with more than three years continiouse riding experience.

SO.... back to this idea of getting a bike and taking to the roads after JUST the first lesson?

Is that a great idea?

Training & tests. get OUT of that initial danger zone as SOON as you can. Not a lot else you can do apart from keeping your wits about you.

And; soon as you have a full licence; you can dump the bludy L-Plates, consider yourself a 'propper' biker, and door is open to all manner of machinary, to suit all maner of means and aspirations. Big Bikes, Small Bikes, Inbetween-Bikes; Seriouse Bikes, Silly-Bikes, expensive bikes, cheap bikes, WHATEVER.... choices abound, and it only gets better. But the licence is the key to all.

* CG125's: Note comments about How hard 125's live. CG has been out of serial production now for about 8 years, which is roughly the anticipated service life of a 125 commuter. They last longer, but service costs and demands tend to be high. CG's reputation is also that they are 'indestructable' or 'you cant go wrong with a CG'. They aren't and you can. The reputation has inflated prices significantly in recent years; while as they have ceased making any more, pool has been getting gradually smaller and into generally worse state. Bit problem with teh CG125 is that too many are the victim of thier own reputation; and 'llow maintenence' is read as NO maintenence; while, the idea you can buy one cheap, and flog it for what you paid for it, has been stretched to rediculouse levels, where people expect to buy them for a few hundred quid, and then sell them for MORE than they paid, to cover teh costs of all teh bodge repairs they have made when they have broken becouse they were old and clapped out to begin with, and they did no preventative maintenance. They are not a 'bad' bike, but these days, personally I would avoid.









And; soon as you have a full licence; you can dump the bludy L-Plates, consider yourself a 'propper' biker, and door is open to all manner of machinary, to suit all maner of means and aspirations. Big Bikes, Small Bikes, Inbetween-Bikes; Seriouse Bikes, Silly-Bikes, expensive bikes, cheap bikes, WHATEVER.... choices abound, and it only gets better. But the licence is the key to all.

* CG125's: Note comments about How hard 125's live. CG has been out of serial production now for about 8 years, which is roughly the anticipated service life of a 125 commuter. They last longer, but service costs and demands tend to be high. CG's reputation is also that they are 'indestructable' or 'you cant go wrong with a CG'. They aren't and you can. The reputation has inflated prices significantly in recent years; while as they have ceased making any more, pool has been getting gradually smaller and into generally worse state. Bit problem with teh CG125 is that too many are the victim of thier own reputation; and 'llow maintenence' is read as NO maintenence; while, the idea you can buy one cheap, and flog it for what you paid for it, has been stretched to rediculouse levels, where people expect to buy them for a few hundred quid, and then sell them for MORE than they paid, to cover teh costs of all teh bodge repairs they have made when they have broken becouse they were old and clapped out to begin with, and they did no preventative maintenance. They are not a 'bad' bike, but these days, personally I would avoid.
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PostPosted: 01:20 - 22 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

** The Honda CD200Benley, is probably about the Cheapest wheels you can possibly get at the moment. They haven't made them since the early 90's or so, but many very well looked after examples survive and fetch pennies on the second hand market.
£400 can get you something very very tidy. They are a four stroke twin, of 198cc displacement. Tuned for ecconomy, they have only about 15bhp, barely more than a sporty 125. But they can better 125 ecconomy, the extra cc's giving them that bit more 'grunt' meaning they dont have to be thrashed so hard to go as fast.
Reason they are so cheap, is few want them. Any-one with a full licence needed to ride them; usually want much more performance for thier money. So they are cheap to buy, and very very cheap to insure. And as such, set a bench-mark for just how cheap, cheap biking can be. BUT you need a full licence.

Riding 125's; twenty years ago, I had Shoei lid; and was remarkeable how people would nod, THEN do a double take as they saw I was on a tiddler... bike was nicked and crashed a while later, and through seperate insurance claim; Uni digs from hell were burgled; I got household Ins to buy me a top of the range Shoei GRV GP replica, the Wayne Gardner paint distinctive and imedietly 'Expensive Hat'.... just got cash to fix stolen recovered bike, and slapped on a Power-Bronze twin headlamp full fairing, in place of the mish-mash of seperate bits Kawasaki fitted, which individually were responsible for it being deemed a 'total loss', and cheaper to replace them and the mangled lamp brackets and missing lamp with the Power-Bronze 'Dustbin'.... that made it look rather like a contemprary GSXR! (not intensional in any way; just worked out like that!)

Now, I'm not a safety jockey; I dont always ride in full leathers, nor even a full face helmet; and I do find it amusing, how I get ignored or nodded, depending on whether the bike I'm on has L-Plates and what I'm wearing, and by who!

Honda CB125...

Leave the L-Plates on becouse I'm, fault finding for Snowie, and probably in overalls and an open face, NO-ONE aknowledges me if they can avoid it....

Though, I did ONCE get a BIG thumbs up from a ZX6 pilot, becouse, when I took hand off the bars to remove fag from my mouth and flick the ash.....

Swap open face for full face and my overalls for jeans & BLJ... I get the odd nod...... and even the occassional one from cruiser riders.... though more often if I'm in Jeans & BLJ with open face.....

Chuck the full leathers on, becouse its cold...... suddenly sportsbike riders start aknowledging me.

I merely find it amusing; I dont wave.... hands are usually best kept on the bars (except when flicking fag ash... which is a safety measure, not good to get hot ash in your eye!); but do nod or flash.

But, intreguing to know, that unless I 'instantly' look like YOUR kind of biker, by way of what I am wearing / riding...... probably wont get the time of day from you......

Ent the net great? Becouse here, you cant see what I am wearing (Be thankful for small mercies!) or what I ride... YET we all talk and get along, and aknowledge each other, even offer 'respect' via the khama system, to people we probably WOULDN'T nod to on the road..... a curiouse little notion to consider.....

Honda - CB 125 RS
1983-1986
https://www.motorbikespecs.net/images/Honda/CB_125_RS_83-86/CB_125_RS_83-86_1.jpg
Brakes
Front: Disc
Rear: Drum
Dimensions
Length: 1,960 mm (77.2 in)
Width: 745 mm (29.3 in)
Height: 1,070 mm (42.1 in)
Wheelbase: 1,285 mm (50.6 in)
Dry Weight: 100 kg (220 lbs
Fuel Capacity: 11.0 litre
Electrics
Voltage 12v
Spark Plugs (Iridium) NGK DR8EIX
Engine
Type Air Cooled 4 Stroke SOHC Single
Bore x Stroke 56.5 x 49.5 mm (2.224 x 4.335 in)
Compression Ratio 9.2 : 1
Displacement 124 cm2 (7.53 cu in)
Lubrication System 0.8 litre
Transmission
Sprocket front 16
Sprocket rear 36
Chain Number of Links 108
Misc.
Motorcycle Style ROADSTER
Tyres
Front: 275-18 Tubed
Rear: 300-18 Tubed
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bike was a revamp of the earlier CB125S & CB125J of the mid '70's, using the faithful little Overhead cam single, which had been deemed rather 'fragile' tuned to the extent it was in the early drum braked 125S, to deliver 12bhp. The 'Street-Scrabler' variant of the 125S, the SL was slightly de-tuned to 11bhp and provided the basis for the later, 'bullet-proof' as long as they got thier oil changed XL125 Dirt-Bike, from which Honda took the engine to motorvate the CB125RS.

Its related to the CG125, in as far as that was essentially the original 125S, fitted with retro-tech push-rod engine, delivering 10bhp, for 'developing' markets.

But the 125RS was a 'little gem'. More powerful throughout the rev range, and lugging 15-25Kg less mass than a CG (depending on variant), was a very much more 'spritely' little device with slightly more composed suspension.

The 125 Super-Dream only had slightly more power, but was lugging around 25Kg more mass to get it. It was the 'faster' bike, though point to point there would not be much between them on anything but a fast sweeping A-Road. Super-Dream with more sophisticated mono-shock suspension, more powerful twin piston front brake, and that howling 12,ooo rpm motor would be a little more 'composed' doing it.... while a CG would need a brave or stupid rider to try and keep them in sight, his engine lacking the 'urgency' hauling out of corners, and wheezing when stretched to higher speeds, and getting VERY bouncy through corners..... Only time a CG was likely to go past either the 125RS or 'Duper-Dream was on the way into a corner..... with smoke coming off the inefectual front drum brake.....

A 125 Super-Dream, in decent state is good for a genuine, 70+mph. I have had one up to 70 two-up, and 75, solo, on GPS snail-trails.

The 125RS is probably only a couple of points off for top speed. Its certainly a 70mph motorcycle.

The CG125, is really only 'good' for 65, and favorable conditions that would see it much beyond that, would also benefit a125Rs or 'Dream.

The genuine article Honda CG125, is probably slightly quicker than any of the (chinese) copies it has spawned, and they PROBABLY are in the majority of modern 4-stroke bikes on offer today.......

Which really only leaves a handful of Japanese or European four-strokes for it to square up to.

Yamaha YBR125? Pretty good comparison. Yamaha's answer to the CG125, with its overhead cam SR engine..... 11bhp, claimed 70mph top speed, and 125Kg......

Its actually 'faster' at least on paper than the Honda CBF, which with a claimed 12bhp only manages a claimed 65mph.

The Water-Cooled, four valve CBR125, boasts more power, and a little more speed. On paper the full A1 complient compliment of 14.5bhp, and 72mph...... but carrying as much mass as the old CB125 Super-Dream.

The CBR on paper is within a smidgin of the Yamah YZF-R125, and that powers the Riaju, Derbi & Aprillia four strokes I believe.

There ISN'T a HUGE difference between any of them for performance, and that 70mph top speed, is all VERY condition dependent.... condition of the bike, AND road conditions!

The CB125 Twins, that have a lot more power to pull taller cogs run around 15Front 42Rear.. And I tend to get best speed from them runnng on a smaller 14T front sprocket than a taller 15T as it lets them rev out in top.

The Chinks tend to use a lower final drive ratio, to meet local tax restrictions based on speed capablity; which means few will top out over 55mph.... but f you have a 38T rear already, what's that matched to a 13 or 14T front? If a 15T then the gears have already been raised a heck of a lot! Yu likely do NOT need to raise it any more!

HINT is in your suggestion that you can cog top before 25mph and then it wont go over 45..... yes... that sunds 'normal' and is because you have about 9bhp at 9ooo rpm, which means that you have around 3bhp by 3ooo rpm, and 3bhp is enough to push a motorbike to around 30mph....

But it takes aprox the full 9bhp to go 60, and between 30 and 60 there's not enough 'spare' power to hold speed and accelerate, and to go faster requires more power than the revs delver for it, so you are effectvely topped out, way before the engine has actually achieved max power revs; ad you need lower gears to go faster, not taller.

Simple solution.... Change DOWN use the ruddy gearbox! Thrash the thing to the red line in each cog, and expect to get max speed in 4th, not 5th.. and you will likely find that with the lower gearing you WILL actually go faster...

5th gear on these is a 'over drive'; you can use once you have done your accelerating to top speed in the lower gears, to hold that speed with maybe a few less revs; it is not a gear for acceleration or response; and on such a low powered bike, is seldom much use for anything.

You are 'short shifting'making the motor labour and it just dont have the power to pull even the gearing as tall as its got, let alone gears as tall as you are suggesting giving it.

As rough guide:-
1st for a standng start to about 15mph
2nd round the houses up to aprox 25mph and any trafc situations you need trickle at less than 30, like roundabouts
3rd.. in traffic on 30-40mph limit roads... aught take you to about 40'ish' with plenty of throttle response to react to traffic and changes of speed limit etc.. its the mother of all work gear on a 125 4stoke.
4th... 40mph and up to flat out on higher speed limit roads without the haxards you need respond to.
5th.. MAYBE if you are on a duel carriageway or very open a-road with little chance of needing to change speed for bends or hazards or juntions or anything

Use the revs NOT the gears; you will ride more smoothly, and not get into sch a tangle trying to rush changes either up or down, and you will have far more control, as well as go faster and likely bet better economy for it.

If you read the paynes manual, or even the instructions in a carb-balence kit; they will tell you that carb-balencing is a 'final' fine tune adjustment, and should be performed after ALL remedial repairs or normal service items; it is not a 'fix' for pre-existing problems.

So, even if you got a balence kit; you would have to start at the top of the list; make sure carbs are clean; air-filter clean or new; sparkplugs clean or new; valve clearances in spec; bores & rings not loosing compression or letting oil be burned etc etc etc...

Good chance that when that lot has been worked through, you wont 'think' carbs need balencing.... and if you do anyway, the 'difference' will be quite subtle, in so much as it will show itself in a slightly crisper thottle response and better mpg. It WONT sort out bad starting or bad idle.. that should have been remidied before you start a balence, and if not, you likely wont get a good balence, and balencing wont make much difference to it.

Essential principle of a balence is that you are syncronising each carb, so that each pot is pulling its own weight, and none of them are trying to race ahead or hold back the pack, anywhere theough the rev-range; consequently you get best power and best economy, and best throttle response from them all working together... little else.

Now; how many miles is on the motor? When should it have had its tappets tickled? When did it last get a set of plugs or an oil change; what state's the air-filter; and are the carbs properly serviced, clean and in tol flor float height etc?

You probably have absolutely no need of a carb-balencer, and trying to use one, would likely make little or no difference; is one likely the most effective / ecconomic way to tackle the issues you suggest?

Your call.

As to the kit? They are dial guages; many will contend that they aren't as accurate as mercury U-tube manomoter type, and are probably right; but consistency is more important than accuracy in this job, and operator error is likely the biggest discrepancy for the job; and not employing the damping valves, or having damping valves open, doing bog all or shut, stopping a reading; lack of suitable screw-driver to get at the indiviual butterfly adjusters; trying to do the job 'tak-on' or tank half on!!! Rather than on a Medi-Drip, will likely make far more difference to how successfully you might be able, or as likely cock-up the bank-syncro.... They 'do' for me, I will say; but only get used at about once a year, for 'final fettle' on a newly restored multi-carb bike, that has probably had at least a top end rebuild, let alone carbs USC'd; they come out maybe once ever three years or so, on the bikes ';in service'.. if that, as part of a 'super-service'... and even then; all other service items 'done'... cleaned, and serviced,factory set carbs are rarely very far off... even on an old hulk like my quarter century old Seven-Fifty with worn choke spindles!

Fun to play with... B-U-T... NOT really a 'go-to-tool' to 'fix' stuff.

A pair of £40 gauges isn't going to 'fix' an out of tol valve shim or three; or a worn slide needle, or gummed up pilot jet, or a sticking or worn float valve; all it will do is let you wast a lot of time, finding you 'cant' get the thing to balence up; and that 'something' else, like a carb service, or tappet tickle, has to be forked out for, and you are down £40 on available funds to get that sorted.

My advice; get the thing properly serviced; get the tappets checked; give it a good thrashing, to get the battery charged up and wash the carb jets with some nice new fuel.... ponder what's what after that.

A-N-D, if its an older bike, with non-stock can; £40 for a set of vac-guages, to sit in the shed for years unused, would go a long way to a proper rolling road set up, and do far more to get it in tune and on song than a throttle sync.... your call.

I know t don't thrill you, I hope it don't kill you, WELCOME to the working week!

The 'Banter' is all part and parcel of the annealing process; you aint at school now; folk you work with aren't nursemaids, nannies, social workers or therapists, that give twoshits about your 'feelings'! They are there to get the job done, collect their pay packet and effoff home... if they can get a laugh at your expense along the way to alleviate the tedium, way their peers got one out of them, when they were the grease monkey, well, that's just fair game.

If you cant take the heat, get out the kitchen; it IS part and parcel of the greater training; if you cant take being sent to stores for a long weight, or asked to sort out the blue sparks from the orange in a box of spark-plugs, or having your 13mm spanner welded to the top of the tool chest or all the many many jinks and japes of the work-shop.... how do you expect to cope faced with a 'difficult' customer, or a really nadgery bit of diagnostics that defies the fault-tree in the manual or the interrogation codes of the computer? And you HAVE to think for yourself, and show some imagination and inspiration, and do some old fashioned hands on, back to basics work it out for yourself 'mechanics'.

I larned the craft at my Grandad's elbow... usually being sent to make the tea, sweep the floor, or be the scape-goat for the lost spanner or bolt or even the missing specs that were on his forhead!

He was time-served in the trade in the 1940's when being a mechanic begged being an engineer; and you couldn't fix stuff by simply diagnosis by substitution, not least as even if there were parts to substitute; and there seldom were; even they needed to be fettled to fit! Which meant things like, after reboring a Siddley 'Six' engine, popping pistons in the lathe to cut to bore size!

His career lead him through the RAF and running the motor-pool, to the AA, thence out to Africa to teach Askari natve police to rid and maintain Ariel motorcycles, as well as put on a display for the Queen's corranation tour; whilst bulding hot-rod grass-track & scrambles bikes for 'fun' on the week-end; before returning to Britan 'just' ahead of a little Afican whalla called Idi Armin; to be given a Commer Van full of tools, to go round and teach 'aprentices' how to fix Humber cars..

He derided 'Aprentice Mechanics' as mere 'fitters' fifty years or more ago, as standardised parts and parts supply saw diagnostc and repair by substitution, let alone a bludy computer! And Mechaics 'stumped' when a poorly finished engine mount wouldn't fit, as there was a bit of castng flash in a bolt hole, and the mechanic' would rather stick it back in the box and send it back as a reject ad have the truck i the work-shop for a week, rather than take a hand file to the damn thing!

Game HAS changed; and is ALWAYS changing; Pops career spanned a fantastic era in Automotive evolution; engines he worked on in his apretice days were usually 'craft built' each piston cut to fit that engine etc; cars were built on girder chassis, and often boded in wood. Electronics didn't exist; some cars/bikes still had asetalene lamps! Motorbkes were usually side-valve singles almost in a push-bike frame.

By the time he retired; most cars were mild variations on a 1983 Vauxhall Cavalier; transverse, OHC four-cyclinder engine, with front wheel drive in a 'unitary' construction body-shell; with McPhearson strut suspension. Bikes? Had gone crazy, with DOHC four cylinder engines, spar chassis, multi-link suspension, 'in unt' gearboxes, multiple carbs, telescopic forks with 'anti-dve' valves; disc brakes, and plastic bodywork.

BUT.. where a lot of 'fitters' would look at a 16v Honda CBX550 with a snapped cam-chain and say "Nah! Not worth fixing mate!" He'd look at it.. squint through his bi-focals, and utter "1923, Blackburne! That used chain driven OverHead-Cam! This aint rocket science! Lets get it open!" And faced with bent valves or mashed pistons or a mangled CCT blade... first recourse WASN'T a trip to the parts store to order a substitute by make/model/year... vice, hammer, file, gas-torch and welding rods, lathe and mill... IF a bit couldn't be salvaged, it was re-manufactured, in the work-shop, JUST like he'd done on something in the 40's from an obscure bespoke built car of the era.

The learning builds; it ever ends; and what may be 'new' doesn't render the old utterly obsolete... core skills ARE core skills, and I spent GAWD knows how long being taught how to hold and use a ruddy flat-file 'properly'!!Before I toddled of to Uni to do degree in Mech-Eng, and end up working on D&D of missile guidance systems for my crust! Where even THERE.. still had the 'banter' and to prove myself, getting hands dirty wiping out the flat file and 'fettling' a bench jig the line op, production supervisor, man'f eng and the out-side jig supplier had been arguing over for a month, cos bits didn't fit on it, why, and who's fault it was!

Fitters swap stuff; Technicians know why they swap stuff; Engineers Solve Problems... Mechanics have to be ALL THREE to be a good mechanic.. and few may ever achieve that goal... and the 'banter' matter is just part and parcel of the wider being where the problems AREN'T smply just n nuts bolts and wires! Yo have to get along wth the folk you work with; you have to get along with the boss, and you have to contend with the customer, and you have to be as 'robust' as your spannering, to get by, get the job done, and not have to keep re-fixing.. whether the nuts bots and wires, or the relationships with the folk about you

Back to Top... welcome to the working week.. welcome to grown up life, its NOT just about the bit in-front of you here and now, like it was at school. There's no pass out parade, or certificate that says 'Congratulations, you have made it'; you have forty or fifty years of it to look forward to; the learning will continue; the banter will continue; as said, you can be a ruddy rocket-scientist and folk will STILL take the piss and you will have to prove your worth over and over and over; by getting on and getting the job done, and STILL get banter, and STILL not reached the top where you can rest on your laurels thinking you have learned it all.. Man Up or break under the strain... but few will want to listen, let alone give you much sympathy for whining about it.. we aint school-teachers, nannies, social workers or therapists!

Doesn't actually say in the add that its an 'F2'

The Honda SOHC forum is probably your font of all knowledge on these.

It isn't totally original; has ace-bars for starters. AFAIK, all the SOHC 750-fours were 'K' designation, and to the cross-over DOHC model that immediately preceded the FII.

XRW672S, isn't a 1981 registration! 'S' suffix is 77/78, so either an ad mistake, or '81 is the year of import, 77 the year of manufacture.

Add provides very little other info, pictures not a lot more; colour sceme? Doesn't look non-factory, but which option it was for & what market? Probably US. Early pressed comstars would have bee contemprary; twin-disk? I'd not be so sure on; the 'fast-back' euro-styling with abbreviated tail but non integrated tail-lamp, may mark that one out as a cross-over model, or a US regional variant for local C&U regs.

£1000 for one of the last 'unloved' comstar and plastic body SOHC's is a bit on the high side for a resto-base to my mind; restored they are seldom worth more than 3-4K... but, even at a grand, they are a cheap source of parts, broken to restore a wire-wheel model.. unfortunately, though that one could be pretty original bar the bars, and might be a more viable resto.

Did you buy it?

Tiss true, you don't have a 'motorcycle' licence. What you have is a FULL UK DRIVING LICENCE.. With 'full-entitlements' as endorsed on that licence for different vehicle categories, for tests passed, and 'provisional entitlement' for all others.

There IS only ONE licence. Just different entitlements. Get 3 points for speeding on a bike, you get three points on your licence. Get another three points for speeding in a car, they get added to the three on your licence; you dont have 3 against bike and three against car; you have six. Get twelve, you loose the licence; end of; you cant say "Oh, well, that was just my CAR licence... I'll just ride the bike" you loose your licence you loose your licence and ALL entitlements on it; works both ways about. So you have a FULL UK DRIVING LICENCE, not a 'bike' licence. Got it?

That bit of semantics, hasn't changed to my knowledge, since they centralized licence issuing at DVLA some-time I think in the '70's.

AFAIK there is nothing in the 'granddad-rights' to confound that, and the only thing that changed circa '97 was the introduction of the DAS scheme, and the creation of the A1 'lightweight' entitlement.

I suspect, that the 'niggle' is that you are telling the ins-co's that you have a motorbike licence, that offers provisional car entitlement, RATHER than telling them you have a "full UK driving licence".... held since 1996.....

Same erroneous notions you have that some-how there are 'different' licences for bike and car, would likely mean they 'assume' that you have full car entitlement on that 'full-UK-Driving licence', until they ask or check... but you have't lied to them, you DO have full UK DRIVING licence..... not your fault that 99.5% of the UK licence holders pass car tests before adding any other groups to it, if ever, so it's 'usual' Full-UK Driving-Licence, is presumed to have full car entitlement on it...

I Put Snowie on the Chavic policy a couple of times; similar situation; first time round she had only ever had a provisional; I think since circa '93, and perpetually L-Plated on 125's on it. Question did get raised; "So why has she never taken her test?" to which I replied, "She's never driven a car! She's been riding a little 125 motorbike on L's to get to and from work".. "Oh! That explains it!" They replied.. and ramped my premium up astronomically.... from aprox £300 a year to I think £350!

Second time was after she'd passed her bike tests, just ahead of 3DL changes, September 2012; and keeping the ball rolling, booked her in for some car lessons.. declaring that she had a 'full-UK-Driving licence' didn't raise an eyebrow, until they queried entitlements on it, and no, she doesn't have 'full' car entitlement on her UK driving licence.... she's got motorcycle entitlement... "Ah! OK!" was reply, and I think that added only a tenner to the premium!

Something we may have to revisit at some point; as she never finished the lessons; she was in a car accident when she was younger, and REALLY gets claustrophobic in a car.. but still.

I suspect the fact you are trying to get cover on a 'New' (not-so!) Mini, isn't helping; ISTR that is in a peculiarly high insurance bracket, and that you are inadvertently falling into a trap set to catch the kiddies running the second driver on mummies policy scam to get round it. But just a suspicion.

For lols, could be worth running a few quote comparisons on other smaller and cheaper hatch-backs; according to a couple of my kids, the Nissan Micra, a few years back, fell into an insurance 'shaddow', an old grannies car, with few recorded claims against them dropping off the ins-co's radar, until kiddies started buying them 'cheap' cos cheap to insure, when grannies hit 70 and stopped renewing thier licences, and put them back on the scanner shunting folk whilst checking face-broke alerts! Lol.

Last sprogette reports that, I think it's the Fiat Tipo that is the 'smart price' successor to that one, and cheapest car for new driver to insure... she was rather put-out, that she couldn't claim my Chavic.... they wanted £2K 'more' a year to put her on the dang policy when she hit 17! When that had at one point had a similar 'old-fogies' slip under the radar ins-co rep, until they cottoned on to the Fast & Furious inspired teens inheriting granny's car, painting them with flip metallic from Halfrauds and attaching "Spooner" stickers & spoilers! Lol!

B-U-T... is likely that new driver loading on anything is likely going to be a bit of a kick-in.

My advice is that it's probably going to work out 'cheapest' to go get commercial lessons; competition is fierce and there are some daftly low offers around; They all seem to be "Learn to drive from £99" round here; only difference is whether you get a instructor turn up in a shiny new VW Cabriolet, or a rather care worn Nissan blue-Bird, and how many hours you get for it! Some of them work out at less than £10 an 'almost' hour! More typically they seem to be about £25 p/h, after £99 intro offer for five or six has expired; but hey-ho.

Old Dogs and new tricks? You may struggle on some of the pedantry of how to hold a steering wheel, (like Snowie!) or 'something', probably trying to do shoulder checks and life-savers, and being moaned at for not keeping your eyes on the road! OR.. could go the other way, and after a twenty minutes to show you know how to work a clutch and what to do at a round-about... provided you don't try 'filtering' like you do on the bike, or anything daft! Be deemed test ready after two or three hours picking up the current test tips.

Test passed? You declare FULL UK DRIVING LICENCE.. held since 1996! As second driver on the policy... let them challenge the duration of UK 'car' entitlement endorsed on that IF they ask or ask you to send photo-copy of your licence!

And let the missus do the talking... play dumb, don't over complicate the issue; they are only shoe-shop assistants that have found somewhere they can sit to do their selling! Don't give them too much to think about, let them ask!

Have you turned it over by hand, to make sure the cam's not 180 about of anything daft ad valves about to get mashed by pistons?

Then, I ted to do oil-pressure spin up, plugs out, odd an old car battery on jump-leads to save the diddy bike one.

Then first fire the same way; avoiding prolonged cranking; whilst trying to get t to catch and burn off assembly lube.. again short bursts, to save the starter.

Once it's caught; it'll probably not stay alive too well, as it burns off; so I play it y ear and try not to let it rev or race, and may pull plugs and have to clean before it'll settle down, and I get a steady idle to warm up and burn off; when exhaqust smoke clears and it'll run without choke; I'll let it tick over for a miute or two, before letting it coole before pulling hot plugs and popping clean new ones, to tweek carb settings ad set base idle.

But main tip, if there is one, is to use car battery on jump-leads... I never expect them to play ball, and faffing about tryng to find a crossed coil connection or a misaligned trigger, or that the fuel tap's ot on, or the vac-hose is split, or or or.... can beg a fair bit of cranking, and kill a little bike battery.

According to a Kawasaki Promo-vid, I watched recently; they roll the bike onto a rolling road at the end of the line; it's motored up on the rollers, before fire; then goes through something like a five minute simulated road test, to check brakes and gears and throttle response etc, before final 'run' takes actual RW BHP figures.
Engines appeared to be sent to line all oiled up and ready to run, after a similar end of line bench test, but they didn't show what they did on the bench...without exhaust, I suspect it was only being motored.

With Japanese Corporate Bushido and career sepuku expected for any 'operator error'; they don't tend to get many "Ah! Now, why do I have four bolts and a gasket that doesn't seem to belong any-where?" moments, we get in the DIY world

KAWASAKI History, by Discovery channe
Have a look; I think it was that one; show the final test around 29min in. OTMH I think they were making ER6's, and reckoned they made about one a minute; all fully tested at EOL.

As far as offering precedents for 'best practice' in QC offering the example of Longbridge or heaven forbid Brownhlls, is rather like suggesting the USA as a precedent for good gun control! Lol!

I was actually just oop-rowed at Looo-Kuss; but had joined after a while working for a German electrical 1st teir making switches and harnesses most notably for Toyota at Derby.. when the Japs said 100% test, they MEANT 100% test! Test rig actually had a key lock down on it, so if an indy switch failed, it would lock it to the rig, and start sounding klaxon and flashing beacons, and making the line lights flash, until a QC came and put the key in, and he couldn't restart the line until he got a code off the computer for entering the failure investigation report!

I came in one morning to absolute chaos; when the test-rig had shut down the line; three days of major meetings and international tele-cons later, and a junior production engineer spending 36 hours on air-liners to get 'parts' to fix the rig.... 'problem' having been bottomed out to the test rig computer's hard drive having reached capacity for saving test results!!! I went t work for Looocas! It was like a village cricket club social evening by comparison!

Actually.. come to think of it, DKL was a village cricket club social evening... that occasionally looked at light-bulbs! Seriously, I knew blokes who's promotions were entirely attributable to their batting average, rather than what they dd at work! "Yes, I KNOW he's an idiot... but we needed a good left field if we were to beat Acocks green!" lol! (I dont play cricket, probably why I never made senior management I guess!)

Snowie & the Daughter are both Smart-Phne junkies; don't ask me what aps they use! Daughter changes her phone more than she does her socks I think! But she has had me on some wonderful wild goose-chases over the years, insisting her 'phone, knows how to get to a chippy, or a cash point, or a petrol station or whatever! Whilst Snowie attemted to 'proove' how wonderful these aps were, and lead us to a private house three streets away, and was jumping p and down, ranting "But the PHONE, says this should be a cash point!" Wouldn't have been so bad, except the cash=point was in the petrol station on the main road n the opposite side of the block, and she'd used it hundreds of times, and shouldn't have needed a ruddy sat-nav to tell her where it wasn't!

We fitted a Garmi to Snowies Super-Dream when she was on L's... mostly because her job was round the houses visiting the old-ducks to do their dishes, and she'd be given 20 different addresses to visit a day.

Fantastic little widget... took us on a tour of all the Mosques in Brum, once.... the niggle was eventually traced to user error.. she had it programmed for 'shortest route' and to avoid motorways (as she was on L's still) so it took us down EVERY bludy back-street and over EVERY ruddy road-hump, between Solihull & Smethic.. which is mostly Sparkhill, which probaly accounts for all the mosques TBH.. but still!

It's not simple Luddite-ism, BUT.. technology might save a little time... one-day.. if t works! Till then it seems to be wasting a heck of a lot!

On the bike, Ahrghhhhh! With the Seven-Fifty inspiring a 'Back-To-Basics' approach to biking in general; I sort of concluded that actually I take the bike to get away from all this kind of crap, so why take it with me, and make life 'hard' for myself trying to give the thing a power supply and see it in the sun! And crickey; if I'd wanted a nagging woman telling me where to go every two seconds, why the heck did I get a divorce!

Old-Skool, directions taped to the tank, just 'works'. As does a paper map in the panniers! A-N-D dead reckoning is a great way to 'explore' places and find stuff you other wise wouldn't!

Up in Derbyshire, I actually tried to 'ban' the daughter's i-phone.... yeah, may as well have asked her to stop breathing, or that hair-spray was being banned to save the o-zone!!! DID manage to stop her beatig me round the crash hat and pointing at fields telling me "Turn left TURN LEFT!" lol! But only after she had navigated us to, I think three closed down pubs; one deralict petrol station, one shut petrol station, and a chippy that was a deralict chinese take-away! And I found an 'open' petrol station, by gess work ad dead reckoning i five minutes, that elicited indignant retort "You KNEW this was here all the while, DIDN'T you?!" nope... though she still didn't believe me!

I really am not particularly enamored by Sat-Nav, really am'nt!

I don't need a widget to tell me how to find my way out of town to the motorway or main routes anywhere, let alone, telling me "OFF-RAWT" every time I take a short-cut round the houses, or "Recalculating" every time!

I can usually get to within maybe five miles of almost ANY destination in the UK, without ANY sort of avigational aid, just following ruddy street-signs! They ARE pretty darn good in this country! Only find GPS much use for those last 5-miles, to find a actual specific address....

But even then; couple of years back, ended up driving ronud the wilds of darkest Wales looking for a frigging hotel, with three women, telling e "Well, the sat-nav says were HERE!" when we were stopped at the side of the road, in the middle of fields, for the fifth time! On the 'phone to the Hotel, to be told, by woman i very nice sing-song voice (A little out of place in North Wales actually!) "Yearse, yooo our yoosing a sat-nav, aren-unt yooo? They doo it too ev-ery-one!"

S what navigational 'Ap' would I reccomend, for little trips away o the bike? Common sense! Road-Signs, and an AZ somewhere in the luggage! If you get lost? So what? All part of the adventure; call it 'exploring'!

Biking is supposed to be abut the 'freedom'! Relish it! Chuck off the chains! Don't take something with you to tell you what to do! Getting away fro that is WHY you are o the bike in the first place, isn't it?

Check your tyrs, check your tyre pressures; the little double-zed is't a bike, even in its day that encouraged any-one to scrub rubber bead to bead; and squaring or shouldering in the tyre from not not beng so oft leaned will tend to make a tyre a bt squibbly, and motorways are HORRIBLE for making tyres squarer, and being rutted by the trucks; put the two together, and you have a recipe for a bike that will weave and wander and if you have a less confident or clued up newbie in charge of the plot, 'fighting' the bike, trying to keep it in an iron grip and ride it like an Audi, doing 88 in the outer lanes, trying to cut it in the rep-mobile races.. its an recipe for disaster.

Slow down; sit it out in the truck stack at the double-nickel; the frustration of feeling like you are going slow really is just perception, cos road is so wide, you have no near hedgerows on your left, no close oncoming traffic, and speed slows down to the relative speeds between vehicles traveling around 65ish and varying varying by little more than 10-15mph either way.

Dicing with the audi-cochs in the outside lanes is stress.. which is what we tend to use motorways to avod. Better the frustration of just 'feeling' lke you aren't gong so quick as you could, whilst you ACTUALLY make pretty good progress, and usually far better progress, even sitting t out i the truck-stack at 55, where that is pretty much your 'average' that poit-to-point on the A-roads, even with higher speed blasts twixt roundabouts on the duel-carriageway, you are lucky if you ca hold an average Much over 30.

Take your time, watch the road surface, make sure tyres are pumped off and round on both axis; mind that throttle, and dial in to the 'boring'..

WARNING: very common post DAS problem, is the rate bikes will accelerate, and squiting up an 'on' ramp onto the motorway, seeing big gap to merge into, doing a shoulder heck ad running into the back of a truck, cos that gap GONE in the blink of an eye, when a bike will accelerate from 60-120 in the blink of, and gaps that look large, get very small, very VERY quick!

So take it easy; look for the 'relaxed' lack of stress, don't ride above your limits or ability; ease off, chill out, don't go looking for the shit that makes stress, and let your perceptions get dialed in....

It WILL come... but remember, fresh off DAS you may have the licence i your pocket, but your learning is only just started! So grow your confidence, don't push your luck.

Good gawd! You sound like my Auntie Floss! You'll be asking me if I want a cup-a-tea, next; then forgetting what you have the tea-pot in your hand for as you ask me about each and every other relative, until you forget asking me if I wanted a cupa, ask again, then start hunting for the tea-pot... and have to pt it down to open a cupboard to look... close the cupboard, spot tea-pot, and ask "Oh! Why didn't I see t there, it was RIGHT in front of me.... Did I ask you if you wanted a cup of tea?.. Hows your Nan?".. etc etc etc.... we still swear her hubby's last words were "Have you made that tea yet, Duck?"

Err.. yeah, it's all to do with Whether the Reynolds Number is under 2K or over 4K... if over 4K you have turbulant flow, under 2K laminar flow, in the middle transitional turbulant flow.. all to do with the size of the passage, and the density of the air, and other stuff...

I wear a Shark-Evo 'flip' on longer runs; usually in the 'open'position. You are right.. to I think the wrong conclusion.. I tend to only drop the chin-bar and go 'full-face' when it's raining, or err... making shall we say 'more determined' progress.... Wink

In an open or the flip in 'open' mode; after the initial "Gawd I FEEL vulnerable" sensation wears off, a bit, it does put you that much more in touch with your surroundings, not locked in a gold-fish-bowl, even more artificial and 'virtual reality' than a car; added field of view. wind n your face and that ' can feel this' I'm IN this, sensation, is very liberating, and 'sound' is all part and parcel of that.

Riding 'open', inherently inclines me to back off a bit, relax, and enjoy where I am, rather than get frustrated wanting to be some-where else.. still in-side the gold-fish-bowl... which begs I get off the M-Way and thrill at the highways and by-ways; taking in the sights and smells, and 'be' in the environment; looking at pretty little cottages, or fields, taking note of the change of season, and what is going on about me... rather than looking at the trucks, and the audi-cochs, and thinking... "err.. is this the M5, the M6, the M42, or the M69... I seem to have forgotten.. where was I going again? OH! Fort Dunlop! Must be the M6..." they ALL look sooooo the same...

I tend to use on an 'as must' basis; say I am trying to get to an event; then direct, easy, get there on time; then, provided there's still day-light, I'll take the blind cooks tour home! Follow my nose, and explore a bit, see what's to see.... until it starts getting dark... and there's not much to be seen... then, I'll pick up an M-Way to make that last leg 'easy'.

But, dropping the chin-piece, putting in ear-plugs, or turning on the stereo, all has that counter-effect, adding to the virtual reality of the fish-bowl, that may make M-Ways more tolerable from making you feel even more 'detached', but also urges you to wind on, and just blitz them.... and getting into the habit of almost cruising at double limit.... and similar 'perception shift problems slowing down to real-world road-speeds!

4 hours; what, 250 miles ish? That's like Plymouth to Manchester; 2/3 the length of the country.... and half a day in the saddle.
Have to say that with that sort of arse-ache journey to tackle twice a week... cruise control is about the last thing on my things to fret about!

As its only once a week; I would be thinking Train and a good book!

Can you still stick a scooter the guards van, these days to get about locally either end?

At 50 to the gallon from something heavy enough to be comfy for that length of time you are probably looking at £40's worth of petrol, and £25's worth of tyres, before 1/6h of a major service, tax & insurance.... visors, waterproofs and other sundry gear, A-N-D the numb-bum...

So quid pro-quo; to sit in a waiting room, not have to stop for comfort breaks, and be able to read a book rather than deal with homicidal audicochs?!

OK.. so its a bit more time... but how much time would you 'really' save, if you added up comfort stops, togging up, checking the chain, doing the extra oil changes drying sopping water-proofs etc etc etc?

So six hours catch-up TV or reading a book, or playing face-ache farm-life or whatever is the game of the day!

Depends what your idea of 'fun' is I suppose....

Bit like a Vanguarde, in retrospective, I think.... used to have them on the train to school; sort of like in the movies, where the bandits ride along side on their 'orse then leap in and tell the ticket fella to open the safe at gun-point.... which we all hoped for as revenge for him walking down the carriages telling us to put the fags out or pay full-fare!!

Sounds like my strimmer...
1/ What bike or engine? & Is it designed or set-up to run on pre-mix?
If it's deigned to run on an auto-lube system, delivering 2T oil to the crank-case via a pump, then adding oil to the petrol, will make the carburation 'weak'; as you have a carb set up to mix aprox 5% fuel to air by volume; oil isn't fuel, so adding 2% or more il into the petrol, means that the carb will be trying to mix the same volume of pre-mix to the air going through it... but there isn't as much actual fuel in there as it's expecting.
2/ this may be a major over-complication.... like my strimmer, I can never remember which way the bludy choke is 'on'! Are you sure you are turning it on, not off?
3/ What does the plug look like?
Always the start point on any engine, and matter of course to clean and or replace on a 2T before trying to fault find!
4/ How did you mix the fuel & when?
Lawn mower does rather suffer from condensation in the fuel, each spring. The Cota, in years past from crap in the tank, inadvertently added from petrol from rusty gerry can, or funnel full if filth.. could be you have a clogged jet from contamnated fuel, if old or not so careful in the mixing.

IF your pre-mix was too thick; then I'd expect the motor, if it ran, to be very smokey, and not 'clear' when warm; probably be rather 'wooly' on throttle response, and possibly wisper or foul the plug and peter out and refuse to re-start, rather than beg choke.

So does suggest, choke lever dohw moment; crud in fuel, or not set up to run pre-mix at all.

To offer driving lessons for a car; the 'school' dont nee much more than a car, a telephone, and some-one over 21 who's held a driving licence a couple of years. There's no mandatory requirement that a car instrctor is DSA approved.

To offer bike lessons; the school has to be approved by the DSA, the instrutors have to all be DSA qualified, and the school needs not only a fleet of motorcycles for students to hire; but also covering the range of licence entitlements students may wish to test for; mopds, A1-125's, A2-45bhp or unrstricted 'A'. The school also needs to have an aproprate and DSA approved off-road training site, for CBT and Mod1 training; and they have to pay the DSA to maintain the schools approvals, and for CBT certs. Oh.. and motorbkes is a tad dangerous.... school has to maintain business liability insurance for the business, and the vehicles. Oh and to instruct DAS instructors have to pass a second, higher set of DSA tests, to gain thier approval for that bit on top.

Ie it isn't a cheap 'game' to get into, and where folk can make an almost professional wage out of offering car driving lessons; most motorcycle instructors are lucky to earn enough over a year, in what is a rather seasonal business, to pay themselves even a subsistance wage; most don't make a 'living' from the job, they do it for the love of it; often part time to a job that pays the bills, or to keep them from dying of terminal boredom in retirement.

You want to compare apples to ranges; look at how much you have to pay to insure a 1.4 Ford Focus as a new car driver, compared to a 600 Fazer as newly qualified bike rider.....

It's swings and round-abouts... some you win, some you don't; BUT no-one makes you ride a motorbike.. Makes your choice, and pays your money.. do you want a motorbike licence or a car licence?

It's a bit like complaining that a brand new TV only costs £150, but a washing machine costs £300.... Why cant I have a washing machine for the same price as the telly! Rather nonsensical. Things cost what they costs; you no want to pay what it costs; don't buy it!

Daft thing is it's 2017, you claim to have been riding four years; which takes us back ear as damnit to 2013, before which you could have passed tests on your 125 for a 33-restricted 'A' licence, and you had maybe three years fro when you were 17, in which you could have done that, and had the restriction lapse and have had a full ride what you like 'A' group licence in your pocket for little more that the price of test fees, which are likely LESS than you have pad to keep repeating CBT's to pretend being a learner and not have a big bike.....

If you could't be bothered, or couldn't be bothered to get clued up, despite that required 'refresher' lesson... sorry, but you don't get any sympathy from me! A fool and his money are soon parted, as they say.

You can always carry on 125'ing paying repeat CBT fees every couple of years, rather putting yourself in for A1 tests for likely less money... but meh... Top-Gun mentality letting the ego have the cheque book.... But your question has bee answered; Bike Schools have a LOT higher 'over-heads' than car driving instructors.

If catted by the ins-co, though; it may not be possible to re-register as the original vehicle.

In such cases, the salvage co I believe will often grind the VIN off the frame expressly as the vehicle has been deemed not eligible to be returned to road; purchasing the salvage, in such a case, likely you will not receive the V5 as Ins-co will have deemed the vehicle 'scrap' and destroyed or surrendered the log-book.

If you were to rebuild with a brand new OE replacement frame; you would have to register as a new vehicle and provide evidence of origin; such as manufactrers receipt for brand new, unused frame, stating vehicle intended for; and probably be obliged to go through a VIC or Vehicle indent Check to confirm identity at a VOSA inspection depot.

If you buy a bike from abroad; registration process is possibly more simple; you will need original market paperwork to show what the vehicle is, and/or dating letter from a recognized body, like an owners club. DVLA may still ask for a VIC. Once satisfied, they will issue a new UK V5 for the 'imported' vehicle, which WILL make it an import, not a UK bike, and show discrepancy between the date of manufacture and date of first registration.

This may make the bike more difficult/expensive to insure, and or re-sell, certainly to trade in at a dealers.

I believe that you cannot register an import 'blind' on paperwork alone any more; the vehicle has to be proven road-worthy, be UK insured and MOT'd, and that paperwork provided with dating evidence and registration application.

So, practically, you would have to import foreign frame, re-build it with the 'salvage' bought fro insurance co; get a dating letter; get it insured on the frame number, get it MOT'd on the frame number, send off all the paperwork, to get a V5 & reg no. and then buy a plate for it, so you can use it.

And accept you would have to declare as non UK bike to insurers and likely pay extra for the privilege as well as loose some in possible resale value.

If we were talking something rare and exotic and expensive like an MV Agusta, then probably no big deal, and worth the hassle.

If we are talking something common or mundane or just cheap, like one of the lesser known Chinese brands; then probably more hassle than it's worth.

If something in the middle like a ER6 or an R6, you pays your money and takes your chances; could prove a short-term way to a better bike than you could buy of e-bay for the money, and/or a rather expensive one in the long term, dependent.

But, if frame no ground off... yup, you COULD just stamp with original no, if you can find it, either on paperwork or by etching ground metal.. but DVLA still have to accept it... and if its been deemed BER and catted off the system by UK insurers; you could end up a bit stuffed on that alley.. all depends on the DVLA status of registration.

Do you have ANY licence?
But hey, Criminal Genius...where you going to get a CBR250 engine from? If you want t ring a 250 as a Learner-Illegal.. and ride with no licence, no insurance, no MOT, no tax, on a bike other than described on the log-book... why go to all the faff of finding 250 engne and tryig to fit it into 125 bke; why not just unbolt the Reg-No from your 125 and bolt that to the 250, you wont have to take engine out of?
Same ultimate conclusion; 250cc bike, that wont 'ping' ANPR.. but get you rght royally fucked if you do get pulled and chcked over...
For what?
CBR125 delivers what 14bhp and might achieve 70mph.
CBR250 delivers what, 22bhp and might just about reach 90mph?
I mean this doesn't even get you into de-restricted NSR125 terratory, does it?
And you want to do a shit load of spanner twiddling, to make such a not really a 125 but still 125 slow bike, and are prepared to risk a rap-sheet longer than your arm, fines bigger than the national budget deficit, and a licence you dont have....
Go for it.. let Darwinism run its course!

Really? What sort?
Mines pink; and has valid from dates next to the entitlements that were some-time late last century.

For no effort with spanners or welder, I could, for less money than it would take to buy a half way to the scrap-heap CBR125, "I wanna be a Fire-Place" 4-stroke commuter in a play-suit; buy a genuine Fire-Blade or Black-Bird or any of a hundred other genuinely high performance, genuine sports-bikes, and ride any of them quite legally, or even seriously illegally.. with near triple national limit top speeds!

Ooooh! Hang on been there, done that, got the SP30's on that aged pink licence to show for it!

NOW... you want to stuff a CBR250 motor into a CBR125 frame..... 'cos well... lets look at the criminal genius of the scheme shall we?

Lots of work, to make your bike less valuable and less reliable; to defraud tax man, invalidate the registration, and your insurance; and gawd knows how many other potential 'crimes'.. all to achieve what?

A bike that is STILL 125 'slow'; no faster than any of the older un-restricted two-strokes, that at least have frames designed for their full power but still sub triple digit top speed performance, rather than an over-stressed over dressed cost-cutting commuter bike.... That you reckon you will be able to slide under the radar.. by riding it 'carefully' Rolling Eyes

Yeah.... so you rather defy any gain you achieve by not exploiting it, to remain unobserved.... that's likely isn't it! OR you exploit it... and risk getting tugged... and having book chucked at you, for everything and anything, from not having licence entitlement through riding bike other than described on V5, hence not insured, and having the thing seized and crushed before they decide how much to fine you for the next decade, and how big a ban to give you...

For what? Maybe an extra 5-10mph more top end on a good day.. without having to go to the effort of what? Doing oooh, a couple of hours of tests that cost barely £150.. so ALL they can chuck at you is an SP30.

Hardly the fiendish criminal genius of a Professor Moriarty is it?

But, as ever; all the evidence of the criminal genius at work; an aspirational detachment bordering on the delusional; absolute conviction "I WONT get caught", combined with similar conviction that the reward is completely and utterly worth the risks that delusion perversely denies are likely to result in a negative out-come; in the face of an ego that wishes to inflate those risks, for the 'rebel-cudos' of beating the system; Combined with a laziness, that wants it all, here and now, right away, for minimum effort.....

To the point that criminal genius has to reveal the criminal master-plan on a public forum, to even find out how to start!!!

[asside] Hey, Mr Police-Man... how's that pop-corn? Salted or Sugared?

But hey; you say you have bike, you have engine... go grab a tape measure and start from the chain run, measuring up the mounting point spacing and clearances around the engine.. most motors can be stuffed into most frames with a little plate to make brackets, a hack-saw, drill and welder...

2012 CBR is change-over year between the early Sega-Super-Hang-on styled one, and the face-lift YZF-R125 rivaling model, I think.
Both have 4-valve LC singles, in a pressed steel frame.

CBR250's are another matter! '86-96 4-cylinder 'Baby-Blade' with then Japan Market licence friendly 45bhp, that revved to an astounding 22ooo rpm, is still an astounding bit of kit. I'd buy one 'just' to rev up in the garage doorway, I think!

Y2K on CBR250's were a rather lack-luster 4v water-cooled single, using the CRF 250 dirt-bike engine; an enormous cost-cutting job, they didn't simply shoe horn the CRF lump into the 125 chassis; seems it got its own unique welded tube & plate frame; and less power even than the old 250N lardy-dream, let alone the old air-cooled 4v single 250RS!

CBR250RR 'twin' is supposed to be launched this year; and suggestion is that it may have as much as 38bhp! Which is slightly more inspiring than the old Super-Dreams, I suppose... but I wonder whether by the time they have made it emission friendly how many of them will get to the back wheel?

Dirt-Bike motors into a 125 road frame? NOW you are talking.... but I would't start with a CBR125, I don't think!

350YPVS Mito? Huquavarna- Aprillia 500? Maybe an NSR/CR250? These could all be rather 'useful'.. but have been done before...

Sort of puts Moriati, there's plan in perspective; though; So much work for so little gain, and so much risk!

I could slap an old air-cooled CB 'two-fifty' engine into a thirty year old CB125 Super-Dream, in about twenty minutes, without having to make a bracket, or swap a bolt; most vexing bit making a piggy-back connector to fire both CDi's off one sensor, but I already have one of them, for 'some' curious reason lol! Still be four-stroke lightweight 'slow' though. More 'fun' ragging the arse off the 125 lump trying not to brake for corners!

Photo's are out of focus.... but what you need is a wiring dagram.

A two-pole flasher is switching the supply to the blinkers on and off, before the indy-switch points the electric to the bulbs on one or other side.... the indy 'warning' lamp on the dash, is then often a cleaver bit of electrickery tha's conneected between both left and rght indy circuits, so that it takes its current fro the side that's 'on' and earths through the side that's 'off' regardles which way the idy swith poits.

Problem here is that it relies on the resistance of the Indy bulbs being higher than that of the tell-tale lamp, so that the volts on the earth side of the tell-tale aren't enough to make the 'off' side indies light up... fit LED's and you can end up with the tell-tale cross over leaving enough volts on the 'off' side indy LED's to still light them, and you have a two position hazard warning switch, rather than an indactor! In which case you have to remove the tell-tale to make the indes work, or re-wire and probably use diodes to get the tell-tale to work with them.

Three pole indy-relays, usually have one out-put that provides a feed to the indy switch, which makes the indies flash which ever side is turned on, whilst the extra pole provides supply to the tell-tale. Conventionally, on a three-pole electro-mech indy flasher; the switch would flip flop between the two out-put pins, so that the tell-tale bulb would flash alternately, and be 'on' when the indicator was 'off' and vica-versa.

This is probably what yours is, but wiring diagram would confirm.

Flasher units for LED's are either traditional electro-mech devices, that oscilate at a rate dependant on the bulb-load put on them; so will flas faster with a lower wattage bulb, or LED, 'timed' for the lower load of an LED, or that have a balast resistor to put the flasher under the same load.. Or they are electronic flashers that use a chrystal like a digital watch to time the flash period, which can keep the flash rate constant for almost any bulb wattage, and even allow you to mic LEDs and tungsten bulbs... but most often they are only two-pole devices... as it seems you are finding.

I would suspect that if you fitted e of the two-pole flashers off e-bay, your ides will work, but the tell-tale wont... that would beg some creatve wring to tap into the individual indy feds to make it work again, if you wanted t to, BUT... its an XR125 trail-style bike... can you see the front indicators from the riding position? If so, then you dont need a tell-take for MOT, and could live without it.

That's a wiring diagam for 'an' XR125; it shows a single two-pin flasher unit. (Or tur-sigal-relay' as it's marked).
What you put in link is a pats schematic.. without the accompanyiing parts list... so rather hard to follow what boxes are what; but still.
If that wiring diagram, is correct for your bike, then any of the 2-pin electronic 5+Amp electronc flasher units of e-bay for under a fiver, would likely do the job, though you'd likely have to chop the connector block of the ies wiring loom and terminate with bullet connectors to suit the flasher unit you get.
Also looks like it has seperate left/right dash warning lamps, wired in parallel with the left/right indies, so no issues on that one either.

Yeah, OK.. lets start at the top; what are you actually trying to do; are you fitting LED bulbs into your existing indicators, or are you replacig the original indicators for LED 'units'?

Either way, why do you believe you need to change the flasher unit?

Obviously, when you say you're confused; and dont really 'get' electrics, your expectation is very 'plug and play', which begs either you ned to get a bit more clued up on basic electrickery before trying to mod stuff from the way the factory made it; or just KISS it, "Keep It Standard Silly"

To offer some insight; LED's are Light Emitting Diodes; they are a special form of silicon chip for want of better description, a sliver of semi-conducting material, that has two properties; first it only lets volts pass through it in one direction, second, when electric does pass through it, it emits light. Unlike a conventional light-bulb, thats a bit of wire, in a glass bulb full usually of inert gas to stop the metal oxidising when it gets hot; whch it does when electic is passed through it; and if enough electrc is passd through it, it gets hot enough t glow, and if an awful lot of electric goes through it, it can glow 'white' and chuck out some light, as well as heat... as an asside, an electric light bulb is actually more efficient as a heatig element than it is a light source... which is one of the advatahes of LED's; they don't need either a lot of volts or a lot of power to start chucking out nothing but 'light', without getting particularly hot in the process; which is why they are mainly used for electrical efficiecy.

We replaced just abut every conventional light-bulb on Snowie's 'Pup' project, from the telltale lamps on teh dash panel, through to the tail lamp and insides, even the side-light bulb, basically everything but the actual head-lamp bulb, which was swapped for a similarly high efficiency HID, in order to minimse the 'power' drawn by the equipment on the bike, so that she could have a few 'gadgets'.. like a Sat-Nav and heated grips, and a mobile-phone charger, without all that sappng the power from the generator so the battery kept going flat.

Typical current draw of an indicator bulb is something in the order of 15Watts; a LED bulb has a rating of maybe 1/4 Watts..

So if you have a generator that only delivers maybe 60 or 70 watts, 'max', and a lot less at idle revs; then the headlamp draws maybe 35W, side-light probably 15W, the tail lamp 15w, the stop lamp 21w, and the warning lamps proably 5 or 8 watts each, another 30W of indicators is quite a hefty added load, when stopped at a set of traffic lights, in with the lamps on, and the brake pressed, those lights alone, are likely sucking more electrical power than the generator makes, even if the engine was screaming to make as much as the generator might, and it's only the battery making up the difference, for as long as the rest of the time, the generator is making more electric than is being used, and can put a bit asside the battery... that isn't robbed by the enormous draw of the starter motor when you start the engine...

LED's then do offer a good way to save some electricity, that can as in Snowie's case be used towards running some other electrical accessories, with less risk that usig them will see you come to start the bike, and get a dead-mans click from the starter solenoid, as you have been usig more than the engine was making, and the battery has goes flat and don't have enough for another start left in it.

Alternatively, LED indcator uits, that replace the whole indcator stem ad bulb, are a common after-market accessory, usually fitted because they are cheaper than OE items to repair a bike that's bee dropped, or because some folk just think they look cool.... Back to top, whats your reason?
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PostPosted: 01:22 - 22 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

LED indy units; oft are't that wonderful; to make them as cheap as they do, they often are made on a flat PCB molded into the lens unit; and LED's have a peculiarity i that the light the emit is very 'directional', so they are very bright if you are stood directly behind the bike, but they can be almost invisible f you are looking at the bike side on.. which don't help many SMIDSY's where they knock you off without even looking; givig them the excuse they thought you must be going straight o, cos you weren's showing (them) a turn signal, limits your survival chances even more from the few who DO bother to look!.. And it tends to be even worse if the after market accessory LED's are diddy little 'mini- indicators, worse still on very short stems, hardly pokig out from the bike!!! May as well not bother! Not actually required on a motorcycle adapted for off-road use; ay as well leave the things off, and tape up the swicth; and use arm signals! Stand a better hance SMIDY will stay the eff where they are, TBH wonderig what the hell you are waving your arm about for, 'cos they never really read the High-way code.. but still! You have been warned; small indies on short stems may look cool in the car-park; but nothng looks cool whe Modeo man has run over it, yelling 'Sorry Mate I didn't See you! Use your bludy indicators, its YOUR fault!!! Got that? NOT cool.. daft.. may as well not bother with them, not absolutely demanded by C&U regs or MOT, so why bother; If you bother, any as well make the damn things effective, and give yourself some chance any-one will take some notice of the ruddy things.

SO, moving on, now that's out the way.. flasher units.. as said there are two types; one is an electo-mechanical gadget; its like an ordinary on off switch you ress with your finger; bit of metal gets pressed between two contacts to 'make' a circuit, and a spring pulls it back off contacts to turn the circuit 'off' again... Now t make that 'automatc' so that when you turn 'on' the indicators the flasher turns on and off, there's a little electro-magnet that moves the contact in the flasher; BUT, when it has thrown the contacts to 'make' the circuit and turn the bulbs 'on' it short circuits itself so that spring can pull the contact back, and turn them off again...then it realises it isn't short circuited any more, and throws the contact back, to turn the bulb back 'on' and the cycle repeats.. clever hugh?

Oh-Kay; C&U regs & MOT test guide says that the indicators should flash between 60 & 120 times a minute, once or twice a second....

Electro-mechanical relays then, have what is known as a 'balanced circuit' or a 'tued' circuit. Basically how fast the electro magnet 'flip-flops' between on and off, depends on the volts it gets given, and the electrical 'load' put on it by the bulbs its lighting up. If a bulb 'blows' t will halve the electrical load on the flasher, ad they usually flash almost double time, as a result....

Which is easy way to check if you have an electro-mech type flasher' pull the lens off oe indy, switch that side's indicators 'on' and wath them flash, then take the bulb out... if the other indy starts to flash fast.. you have an electro-mech flasher unit.... if ot you likely have a solid state, electronic, chrystal timed one.

These are the more modern type; basically they have a transistor ircuit in them, and a chrystal like a dgital watch; when a voltage is applied to the chrystal, it naturally gives a flip-flop out-put, turning on and off at a certain frequency; this 'signal' is then put through a transistor, that does the job of turning the light bulb on or off, dependng whether ts gettig volts from the chrystal or not. NOW these electronics are ot load depedant; so you can put any wattage bulbs on them, and they will flash at the fixed rate the flasher electroncs are tuned to, and if you have more than one bulb, and one blows the flash rate doesn't change.

SO.. electronic flashers are great for LED indicators, that have a very very low wattage; because not the flash rate, not depedant on the bulb wattate, flasher will flash them at the rate ts set to regardless; you can have an ED in the front indy and a tugsten bulb in the back, or mix and match to your hearts content; flash rate will remain in that 1 or 2 times a second range they are set to.

An electro-Mechanical flasher on the other hand, will tend t flash fast, as if a bulb had blown, if you have LEDs in one or two of all indy lamps, drawing that much lower wattage... they will do likewise if you fit the wrong wattage bulbs too, and not unknown for flk to have indies that flash fast one side and slow the other, because they should have say 15W bulbs, but have fitted one 12W in an indy one side when t went, and maybe 1n 18w bulb n another on the other side, when that blew.... but that's an example.

Electro-mechanical flasher units, were by far the more common factory fit right up until perhaps ten years ago, as they were cheaper than electronic ones, and usually could carry more current more reliably. So older bikes, older odels of bike, ad smaller lower cost machines of even quite recet vntage MAY still have electro-mech flashers... so you need check.

As said, lift an indy lens ad see f flash rate changes when you take a bulb out..

IF you have a constant rate, electronic flasher already, you quite possbly need not worry ONE JOT about swappng it unless its toasted... should't matter whether you have LED's in the indicators or tungsten bulbs or what.. flash rate shuld be uneffected, and indes should work as they are supposed to. Its oly a 'issue' if you have an electro-magnetic flasher, that is load dependet.

NOW, two options; when LED indies started to become popular, they were often sold with 'balast resistors'; basically a dummy load that drew the extra watts of a tungsten bulb, the LED didn't, that had to be coupled in in series with the indy... rather defeated any potential power savng from the LED, as what it didn't draw, the balast resistor did, and simply turned into heat.

As a cheap fix, this is still viable, and pretty easy to do, but again, if you are tryig to save watts for other equiment rather defeats the point; is cheap ad easy though.

Alternatvely, the flashr has to be changed, and many have offered flashers for LED's, that are simply electro-mechanical flashers 'retuned' to give the necessary flash interval with a lower bulb load... whih ca work, provided they are tuned to the load you have, and you dot say have a LED on the font ad a tungsten still i the back, or something..


Chrystal timed 'electronic' flashr units, as said, are the better alternatve, and thse days can cost as litte as £2-3 from China (I think I bought half a dozen last time, so I had a few spars knocking about!), and provided they have the current rating, can be fit ad forget solution tat would let you mix ad match tungsten and LED bubs of different ratings, and still keep the flash-rate constant.

BUT... you are stepping away from 'standard'.. odds are that Honda make the wiring harness with a dedicated plug on the ed to fit the flasher unit they choose to use... if that's NOT what YOU want to use, or NEED to use, the chances that some-one will make a plug-ad-play direct swap alternatve flasher that will simply fit the same plug as Honda fitted to your bike, isn't great; they aren't making them to sell to honda in the volume Honda buy for the productio line, they are making them to sell to folk like you, after market, which s a much smaller market; so they are likely to offer a 'standard' flasher uit of the right ratig, and leave it up to you, to cut the Honda harness ad ft connectors to graft it into the crcuit... you AY be lucky ad get something 'plug and play', as Honda do use a lot f stadard components, and teh Chnese have copied a lot; so good chae that ome-one makes a CG or CG derivative in a Chnese factory and has for cost cutting got some-one to make them electronc flashers that fit
the stadard Honda wirg plug they use... BUT no garantee...

You are working off the books here; modifyng your motorcycle from the spec that ts creators laid down for its deign; you cant expect suppliers to have solved any ad all the prblems you might ecounter departing from Honda stadard, and offer you an 'off-the shlf' ready made, no hassle, plug and play solution, you DO need to get a bit clued up what you are doing, and be prepared to do some trial ad error, and maybe chop wires and solder on different conectors to make stuff fit and work.

I typed "Honda XR125 Wiring Diagram" into google; clicked 'images' ad looked at what it gave me; fooud one that looked half decent, used right click ad option 'Copy Image URL', then pasted it into message box ad use the 'IMG' otto to put {img} tags around it to get it to display on post.

Also 'nicked' it using same right click ad 'copy mage', then opened 'pant' and used 'past' to get a copy of it I could zoom to and move around a bit!

That explains it; and why you should look at the wirig diagram, not an assembly schematic.

Curious the wiring diag shows a simple two-pole flasher, and the one you have has three pins...

Is there actually three wires i the plug on the bikes loom? Does one 'dead ed' and is unused? If so, could explain why after-market ones only have two pins n the actuall flasher. They just dead end t there rather than in the loom. Also worth checking to see if 'spare' pin is amply an earth that's redundant the after-market flasher...

But, back to top; DO you actually NEED a new flasher unit? And f you do, are you sure you are getting one that will do the job you want? Ie actual electronic flasher for LED's not a re-timed electro-mechanical one.

Do the bulb-out test; check you actually need it; and as said, think hard whether the LED indies you want to fit actually ARE such a great idea.. as said, not required on an off-road motorcycle for MOTl remove all and put a strip of black tape over the indy switch, IF you are just trying to get it through test.

If you want indies to work, and be useful, make sure the are not just bright from behind, but stick out far enough and are bright enough from the side too, that them that do bother to look WILL see'em, or pointless having them, no matter how cool you think they may look.

Actually watched a acquaintance go 'down' in front of me, on a mini roundabout dodging a SMIDSY who just opened his window and yelled "Use your trucking indicators ext time", and drove off. Lad was OK, but he had bee told o half a dozen occasions that o-one could see his ruddy indies from the front, so close to the headlamp, and so directional due to LED's.. lying on a heap in the middle of a wet round-about don't look 'cool', no matter how stylish your indies might have been before had!

Why on earth would taking the exhaust off help power 'come back'?
Back up start from the top.
-Engine runs.
-Rear wheel spins up on stand
-Bike no move, when wheels on floor
That what you got?
If the engine wasn't making power... it would stop running! so it's making 'some' power.
It makes enough power to make the back wheel spin.. in the air... so ts making enough power and enough revs to make the centrifugal clutch engage.
Put it on floor.. load on wheel; NOW the engine still makes enough power to run.. just dont move the machine...
Still rev.. if t revs high enough to engage the clutch now but didn't have the power to puch the thig alng the floor... it would bog, and try and stall
If it sitll revs, just dont move.... its making power.. its just not moving
anything....
Hmmmm.... where can 'power' go mising between a running engine and a back wheel not turning, in a bike with o gearbox?
I know! Its taking a holiday out the exhaust pipe!

It's a four stroke moped; by law, it shouldn't be capable of exceeding 28mph, or it's no longer a moped.

Speedo optiism may suggest thats's about 35 on the dial; but, seperate issue.

WHAT on EARTH are you talking about; power is fuel and air and exhaust.. and the air's OK?! And the exhaust you want to take off, you are worried is coked up... on a four stroke!?!? is OK.. but you are fretting about jet sizs?!?!?

POWER is Force x Speed; end of. That is SI definition of the stuff.

You aren't getting the thing to move.. so no speed or force.. so no power at the back wheel... GO CHECK THE EFFING CLUTCH SLIPPERS!

You sound like you have far more ideas than know-how, that are going to help you make a darn site more problems than you'll solve.

Motor runs; its making power, its not getting where its useful. This does NOT suggest you should be diving in looking at carburettor jets, exhaust pipes, or aything else! Suggests your clutch isn't hooking up, and or your belt is slipping.

Sort THAT, get the book, do a service; BEFORE you start any more poking and proddngs i the dark, with wild ideas that an engine suddenly needs a totally different carburetor jetting.. as stuff wears out!

Err.. the chin piece needs to come forwards to open, and be shoved back to lock; was a bit more of a faff to get used to when mine was new.

Biggest issue, I find is having the visor open a couple of clicks to flip.. and remembering that before I try opening or closing the chin!

Practice makes perfect; seem fairly deft at it on the move now.

No licence required; no road tax, no MOT, no insurance, no PETROL even.. A-N-D it saves you gym fees, so you can stop worrying about your weight.... tackles so many problems all in one...

Anyway CBT sn't a licence, its a first lesson; unsupervised L-Plating is so folk can go learn to be able to pass tests, not dodge'em.

125's can be very useful cheap wheels; but they are at best barely adequate transport; they aren't fast, they aren't wonderfully comfy, and like any bike, you get wet when it rains, whilst trying to dodge all the twits, warm ad dry in cars who seem to need an eye-test 'cos they ever see bikes!

As to how big you are and whether you'd look like a sumo wrestler on a donkey... forget it! As quip, you are lucky if any one who SHOULD be looking takes any ruddy notice! Besides that, its a way to work, not a fashion show, and helmet hair and the drowned dog 'look' dont have too much atheistic appeal regardless!

Yup.. bike will probably be a little lathargic tryig to haul 25stone about, but, you know what, they are designed to! Yor weight IS a little i the upper percntile; I'm about your height and told I've got a bit of a belly at around 14 stone! But hey; I ride a 125, for fun, and eve stick the O/H or daughter on the back.. daughter makes a half full packet of crisps look rather porky, but still, our combined wights aren't much over yours, and I take my life in my own hands, to comment how far over it may be for O/H + me!!!!! But point is 125's are designed to carry two people; you aren't THAT heavy.. so should still do the job...

Bit of pizzicks for you; "Power = Force x Speed" as far as a motorbike goes, the 'force' in question is wind resistance; big chap will tend to give a bigger frontal area for wind resistance to work against. but, difference as the rider gets heavier doesn't go up that much; cos weight gets spread about three dimensions, so twice the weight doesn't mean twice the drag; so needn't knock so much off your top speed, and if you duck down a 'crouch' over the bars, your frotal area is lkely not much bgger than ay-one elses; no reason you shouldn;t be able to go pretty much as quick as any-one else on the same bike. Basically Speed isn't proportional to weight..

Next up; Force = Mass x Acceleration; now force is a facet of power, so now weight does come into the quation, and it will make the bike rather less inclined to accelerate.. its a 125.. it will be anyway.. small difference! As said, I can 2up on a 125, it tales a little more thrashig to get it shifting, and give a bit more time for braking, but, no huge handicap, bike can still make progress.

Likely you will be more comfy on a bigger bike; but they tend to be more expensive to run, as well as get licences up for... your call.

Start with CBT, remember its not a licece just a first lesson; if you are over 17 absolutely no reason they should make you do it on a 50, but stop thinking, start ridng.. go do the course, find out for yourself, what its like, whether you can do it, whether you';ll like it and IF you want to take t any further... whether persng 'cheaps' with a 125 or looking at higher licences for something a bit bigger and less cheap.

CBT is a pretty comprehesive course, intended for absolute beginers; to aswer all your questions; if it dont open yur mouth and ASK! Thats what its for; and will get you far ore clued up than nattering on the net.

Call about; chck the T&C's ask what kit they provide ad what they recommend you have before turning up, and most important what the catering arrangements for lunch are.. the get on and do.

Oi! I resemble that comment!
However, my affliction for 125 Super-Dreams waxes and wains, usually depending on how want they are to play ball, but it was never all that huge to begin with TBH.. they were Snowie's oy-dee-ah! I actually wanted to do an air-cooled two-smoke... and did... probably aught to have stuck to the broken-benly's!!

I wonder how different history would have been if she'd won the auction on a KH125 instead...

Bit like patching 'designer distressed' jeans, though.... Lumiweld, on the other hand, can work rather well .... and you can pop-em back in the motor after! Though I will confess I haven't welded up a completely holed slug, just the odd one with sunken crown.

Onthis egie, I suspect you are over thinking it, and givig it FAR too much credit to cofound!
The inlet manifold is mai restrction on sigle carb set-ups; doesn't seem to make much odds whether you drop a 24 or 26mm keihi on them.
Twins do liberate a tad more throttle response, but probably no more power.
Air-Boxes DO work, ad on the T-carb set-ups o the benly egine there is a long 'snorle' on the carb goig into the carb mouth to offer a good amount of air-correction ad smooth flow out before it gits the jets.. they DO make a difference, they DONT add restriction...
Open carbs and pod filters DO...
Lacking an flow smoothig before ar eters the carb, adnd pullng air i any direction aroud the corner of the carb mouth, that can actually offer a constrction to reduce flow, and turbulance over the jets that hasn't had a chance to settle ot before it passes over them, screweing some of the metering finesse.
Pod filters... offer no correctio; still drag air from all directions, and make it tur eve tighter into the carb-mouth, and often more so NLY lettig air enter fro the side, so have to make tight 90 degree turn to get into the carb, and in incredibly small volume and distance infront f the carb-mouth.... just about as 'bad' as you can make thigs really....
YET.. little benly engie is so low tued and so tolerant on the most part, even a pod filter doesn't seem to screw them up THAT bad!

Looking at the instalation tightness you have, I dont really thk that makig up a manifold to do little to help and use what little available space you have is necesserily the best way to go.

Think that comes to my mind, is your 1+1/4 SU.. in the petrol tank, V-Max styleee... manifolded down either side of the frame spine, for shortest inlet tract, and 'even' flow to either pot.. 1&1/4 SU is sized for what, a 30-40bhp mini engine? It's probably not far off for the 'demand' of a 20bhp twin. Mounted over the egne, in the tank-area, you could make t quite a tidy instalation, and use the tank, as a fairly decent sizd still-air box.. all good stuff, to my mind.

What did they use on 2CV's? A small Solex Down Draft with accelerator pump might do quite nicely.. actually, one of the twin-choke 'progressive' that has tiny primary barel, might be rather useful; small primary may be big enogh on it's own.. but second barrel could give some useful added oomph if motor sucks hard enough... I'd probably probe that notion a bit further.

Petrol is easy to find space for, it will flow into whatever shape you make a tank to fit anywhere on the bike, and you could, back to the SU carb, use Mini's SU electric lift pump to keep the float bowl topped up, if you cant get a gravity feed.

As to the rest of the installatin, the grosely lowerd stance of the MZ frame and almost diagonal path of the spine, I think is likely to make stuff 'tight'; Benly motor's ot that long but it s fairly tall, and inconveniently tall at the back, where the rear face is almost vertical, compared to the MZ's nice little radius.....

Getting the motor n the frame, nicely lined up and hanging something like, I think should be the top priority here. May mean some post fit faff, choppng the exhaust to fit to suit, and waving carb and bits of hose about to find best place for it; but, that muddle in the middle behind existing pegs? What is that, a cetre stand?

Likely that having got the motor something like located, earlier suggestion of using the Benly peg mounts or similar bolted under the engie, could add to the issue of ground clerance, and from what I see i pics, I am wondering whether some sort of general up and tidy up, extending the sold-struts maybe 1/2" to bring the swing-arm level, and gain a bit more under cariage clerance for taller motor, may be in ordr, and then, choppng CB125 rearsets, and or AJS Raptor forward controls, and going full chop high-way pegs, to get them infront of the motor and up out the way of the under-carriage, might not be the best way to tackle that issue...

But, tis your baby... that's 'just' the sort of ideas prompted by pics...

I'm sure you could get the B&Q leggo fit pipes to work... just don't thnk it's likely to be the overall easiest of most effective ways about, or best way to use the space you probably dont have to mess....

I was looking at CB125 inlet flanges and trying to work out f yu could make use of earlier T-Shock stubs that angle cabs out fro the ceter line, or fit mono-shock TD flanges that angle them 'in', upside down or crossed side to side, to angle them out, to make better use of space, with twin-carbs..but I couldn't find any handy! (and ISTR that they aren't quite symmetrical to allow such re-orientation') BUT, other notion to my engineering aesthetic is again to go 'up' rather than back or 'out', and crack out the lumi-weld to re-angle a Twin-Carb set up.. which again, if you went high-way pegs might make a bit more room for them without knocking knees guzi style!

Census here, though does seem to be that you are not chasig the fattest pig, messing wth the leggo pipe work from B&Q, and probably making more problems with it than you solve...

Shaft Drive, naked, not a bobber/chopper...
Those criteria sort of narrow down the choice a bit.. plenty of shaft drive bikes with full touring fairings about, plenty of shaft drive cruiser/bobber/choppers about; plenty of chain drive nakeds... BUT only thig that leaps to ind thats not a cuiser, is a aked, and has shaft drive, plenty of grunt and half reasonable upright ridig position, that springs to mind is.... Moto Guzzi.. V7's are not unduly heavy either. O/H's slightly dated V75 is actually lighter than a lot of 500 comuter twns, and carries its weight rather well; and feels like a super-charged 125 on steroids, o the road.

Only little niggle is they are.. well.. a Moto-Guzzi! Really. Worth a look though.

I have no idea; my first 'proper' bike, as in the first one that actually had two wheels, no pedals and actually 'ran'... I still have!
As a comper, not an every-day, helped it not get (too!) run into the ground to soon, but it was also only 4 years old when I got it, and in the trials world, having the latest tackle, particularly at club level, doesn't count for so much; it did get rendered obsolete by the 'new-generation' of mono-shock wonders, soon after; but they invented the T-Shock class, within 5-years, in which, as almost the last of the breed, it was always going to be on the par...
Notions of trading up or upgrading have come and gone over the decades; and in the late 90's I pondered one of the new water-cooled, mono-shock Montesa's, that were then the Championship machine of the era, thanks to Lampkin; But couldn't really justify the cost of one, and was daunted by the complexity. Idea was re-kindled in the early naughtiest, when I tackled the clubman course on I think it was a Sherco 200, which made me stop and think just how hard I was making things for myself on the old dinasaur, and start pricing up things like 320 Scorpa's.. but err.. yeah... sort of had that 'Pang' that even if I got a modern rock-hoppa, I couldn't see myself let go of the old Cota, and couldn't compete in two bikes at one event! So ended up joining a 'Classic' club and sticking with the old dinasaur! And expect it'll still be hanging around in the shed at my wake!
Been torn down and rebuilt and 'restored' so many times over the years, I can almost strip it like a squaddie with a Lee-Enfield, blind-fold, in my sleep!! And if I totaleld up all the receipts over the years, for replacement mudguards, and handlebars, wheel truing and spoking, sprockets, carburettor inlet rubers, and the HUDREDS of ruddy clutch ad brake lever's I've broken... PROBABLY could have bought a brand new 315R for the same money! But what the heck....

Back to top.. answer is YES probably is always hard to replace your first... which is why I never have been able to!

Pots and kettle's kid! You did't have the 'right' t be riding on a motorway; ad YOU did so knowig you rde there at risk of being stpped, charged ad hving bike impounded. It was no 'acident' you were there, or that you gave them cause to take your bike off you!
If they were a ittle 'careless' in lookig after your pride and joy, then they will undoubtedly tell you it was inadvertant; THEY didn't set out to deliberately damage your bike... you o want bike skuffed up by some-one you dont know... DONT ride it on the effing motorway and gve them cause to take it off you! Look after your own shit kid!

Oh dear, what a pitty; those photo's seem to have got lost.. some-one presed the wrong button when the camera asked if they would like to 'format memory card'.... you know, rather like your L-Plates.....

You are hardly standing on high moral ground here, are you?

Actually a quirk of the business; third party insurance is just that; and if he has a certthat covers the bike, then the BIKE has cover, and as does any-one who rides it, whether i accordance with thier licence etitlement or other element of the RTA.

Borg could probably site the precedents; BUT, technically you CANNOT under common law, enter into a 'contract' to commit an illegal act. Its a fundemental key-stone of law; so you cant hire a hit-man to commit a murder, and have the hit man offer the defence "I was just doing what I was paid to, be breaking the law if I hadn't".. contractee, is under duty of care to act within the law regardless of any requrements of 'contract'.

On that basis, and I believe that it has been put before the courts in a couple of test cases; an isurance company could argue that they are't 'liable' for any damages or losses, IF the vehicle is being operated outside the limitations of 'law' or 'contract'... so; if a bike was excding the speed limit and crashed into a school-bus of kittens, Ins co could argue, that the rider was breakig the law, so no cover, no liability. Or if they fell off, and bike knocked down some NIMBY's cottage wall; the rider wasn't riding with Due-Care, so illegally, so not covered, as breaking the law... think about that one...

I believe that judge made ruling on that one, many many years ago, that such an argument made a nonsense of ANY mandatory 3rd party insurance, as if any vehicle that crashed and damaged any-one else's property was accepted to be the result of the 'illegal' act, of not being in full control of that vehicle, so the contract of insurance was invalid, almost no-one could actually claim against a 3rd Party policy for loss! They would have t pursue the driver, personally, for the loses .. the exact circumstance mandatory 3rd Party insurance was contrived to avoid!

So motor-insurance is actually subject to a couple of quirks, contrary to common and contract law, that are based on the principle that the whole POINT of 3rd party insurance is to indemnify the public at large against loss caused by act or omission by a vehicle operator, whether acting in or outside the law.

Consequently; a third party 'claim' takes precedence, and if a policy has been issued, is in force, wherever 'crimes' or breaches of contract might be used to suggest the insurance isn't 'valid' are redundant; and a third party claim can be made against that policy whether the vehicle is being ridden by the policy holder, or by some-one who has stolen it; whether they are riding in accordance with their licence entitlement or provisions, or not, or in accordance with the C&U regs or the RTA or any other laws, or not... 3rd party liability, has bee provided; is co have agreed to indemnify any and all 3rd party loses caused by that driver or vehicle, regardless; end of story.

THEN, comes the question of whether they may have any recourse under contract law, to pursue the policy holder, or any-one else for breach of contract or for 'negligence', having caused the Ins Co 'unreasonable' losses...

So, as long as there is a 3rd Party insurance certificate issued, that either covers the vehicle operator or the specific vehicle; then the vehicle IS insured, end of..

Once issued an insurance cert CANNOT be revoked... as long as its in circulation it is in force and they are liable.... it oly ceases to be in force whe the date expires or it is retured to the Is-Co and they shred it; which opens a can of worms as far as the MID ad the vogue ins co's have for ssig 'e-certs' that are still in something of a grey area as far as actual law goes; but still.

Point is.. if there's a cert, the there's 3rd party cover; they at seize a bike for being uninsured, if there's a policy o it, and it IS the vehicle that is registered and referenced on the cert... though thy do have many other provisions of law under which they can seize it, and I believe that general police powers do provide for them to seize any artifact instrumental in the perpetration of a crime... and a motorcycle, being ridden on the motorway by some-one with no licence would fall under that!

It does; trouble is that insurance is an 'idea' not an 'artifact'. A-N-D, when you buy insurance on the monthly plan, you aren't buying it 'pay as you go', you are usually buying a 12 month policy, paid for with a loan.

If you bought a motorbike in a shop on a HP deal; you would get a tangible 'artifact', not an 'idea', and wouldn't matter whether you had cleared the HP deal or not, the motorbike, the 'artifact', wouldn't stop being a motorbike, if you were late making a monthly installment or stopped paying the monthly installments all together; the motorbike would still be a motorbike, and until they sent the Repo-Men round to take it off you, you could continue to make use of it... the matter of whether its paid for or who legally owns it doesn't matter.

When you buy insurance, in the same way, on a credit deal, the Ins-Co providing the 'insurance' paid for by a loan company, on your behalf, who you then pay in installments; same basic principle applies; only difference is that if you stop paying the installments, there's no tangible artifact, other than the certificate of insurance for them to Repo....

Now it gets a bit messy; but if you stop paying the monthly installments on a motorbike, its difficult for the loan co, to stop you using it, unless they can Repo it. They cant from their office press a button that stops the engine starting, or makes it turn into a pumpkin.

Insurance is a 'promise'; if you crash, Is-Co 'promise' pay to fix any damage you cause a 'third-party'. The Ins-Co are the 'first party', the policy holder is the 'second party', as both are 'party' to the agreement of insurance; any-one else, isn't, they are a 'third-party'..

Now, if you stop paying the monthlies on an insurance policy; as it's NOT an artifact, its an idea; the Insurance co CAN effectively make the policy stop working, or turn into a pumpkin; they just refuse to pay out for any claim, or honor their 'promise', as you have't honored yours to pay them.

Except, YOU didn't pay them, the loan-co did! AND, the law that makes 3rd party insurance a mandatory requirement of traffic law, ALSO makes the certificate of insurance, an 'artifact', like the motorbike, that grantees the 'promise' to provide 3rd-Party indemnity.

So now, just like the motorbike example; as long as that certificate of insurance exists, and as long as its in your possession, a third party is eligible to make a claim against it... and legally the Ins-Co HAVE to honor their promise to provide indemnity against 'loss'.

Opens something of a can of worms as far as e-certs and the MID; as far as what they may or may not do or try and do, or try and imply;in the absence of a physical artifact that is the insurance certificate....

Whatever a coppa may try ad tell you at the side of the road, however, the MID has little or no legal standing; a policy does not have to be registered o the MID, and often isn't, and is commonly not, for some time after a new policy is activated. Entry on the MID has o legal standing AFAIK no matter what a coppa may try and imply at the side of the road.

Likewise, 'instant cover' offered over the telephone; has little or no legal standing. You may have a verbal promise that they will honour cover, BUT without a physical certificate of Insurance, there is no proof of it.

And it was, until recently, actually a stipulation of the RTA, that it is a driver's responsibility to 'ensure' they have 3rd party cover to use a motor-vehicle, and provided that a physical insurance certificate was the only 'grantee' that that was in force... ie: you ride or drive before you get the paper cert, you do so at risk...

Coppa calling your broker at the side of the road and asking the insurance co.. likewise is NOT an insurance certificate or substitute for one; so by inversion, a broker denying cover, if they haven't been paid or have decided to cancell the cover, also has little or o legal stading.

What matters is the actual legally required, and legally recognized 'certificate of insurance'.

Of which debate remains over whether an 'e-cert' issued electronically may be....

A photo-copy of an insurance certificate, was never given legal status as anything but a facsimile of a original document; was not itself an Insc-Cert or proof that one existed, just that one probably had existed, of which the facsimile was made....

An e-cert, on a smart-phone screen, or even a computer print-out of one, is also rather nebulous, and effectively no more than a facsimile.. of a 'virtual' document that may never have actually existed!

A-N-D... chucks the matter back to the hear-say of what a broker may say over the 'phone, or have entered into a data-base..... and does give them some wiggle room, to effectively 'repo' an insurance cert, without having to send the goons round to get it....

And its an issue that the law is still trying to rationalize, I believe, and whilst the RTA now makes reference to and gives some legal weight to an 'e-cert', there is still a lot of gray area as to what that actually means, and what legal standing it has, NOT being a physical artifact, that remains to be tested in the courts.. and does appear to practically mean that Ins-Co's can make up the rules to suit themselves as they go, never issuing a paper cert to start with, then deciding whether or not to agree they provide cover, and if and when they may honor it!


There was a test-case a few years ago; Rog will probably able to site the parties and dates; BUT essentially a chap borrowed a car that wasn't insured by ts owner. He had "Any Vehicle With Owner's Consent" extension on his own policy for his own car. Plod stopped him, because the reg of the car he was driving 'pinged' on ANPR as not on the MID as insured; Driver argued that the car didn't HAVE to be insured, because he was; and produced his insurance cert for his car and showed the "Any Vehicle" cover on the policy. Coppa insisted that that only applied to vehicles to which another policy already applied, and called the broker, who agreed with coppa, who the seized the vehicle! Driver then attempted to get the car out of the impound, showing his insurance certificate showing he was sured to drive it; ad the pound refuses insisting that the car had to have it's own insurance... and the car was crushed, before the matter came to court, and the driver was charged with driving without insurance....

I court, the solicitors waved lots of paperwork about, showed lots of exclusions ad limitations the policy schedule, and agreed small print; ad quite wonderfully, IMO and displaying the pragmatism of the UK Court system, over the bureaucratic ego-egocentricity of the civil service... pulled the RTA and pointed to the statement that said a driver MUST have a valid Ins-Cert ... and asked for the actual, legally recognized 'artifact'... read it, looked at the "Any Vehicle with Owner's Consent" clause, asked the driver whether he had the owner's consent; checked with the owner he'd given it; asked for any arguments.. got a few, and then over ruled the lot, replying that the RTA said an Ins Cert was the definitive requirement of law; chap had one and NO-WHERE on that certificate did it provide ANY limitation to the cover it offered, or requirement or exclusion OTHER than owner's consent. that the driver DID have. Case dismissed!

Raising a case by the car owner against the police, I believe for 'damages' illegally seizing and crushing his car.

Set a precedent in UK case law... which is that t s the paper artifact of a insurance Cert, and actual statements written on it that has definitive legal standing, as far as the requirements of RTA, NOT what is written into the policy schedule or 'contract' of insurance, or any interpretation that a broker or Ins-Co Representative may wish to believe, or report to a road side coppa on a smart 'phone!

I buy my insurance up-front, paying the lump-sum; its only about £120 a year, so o great hassle; and 'sorry' I don't have an e-mail, please send me paper certificate in the proper post.. THAT s what a judge will go by; precedent has been set.. no matter what road side coppas brokers clerks or other bureaucrats would like to argue...

And as long as I possess that physical Insurance Cert, as far as I am concerned, that 3rd Party insurance is in force, and legally enforceable; that is MY understanding and interpretation of the law, as stands.

Principl comes from the track; late 90's 4-cyl 2-strokes, that firing every revolution have power pulses akin to a V8, ie very smooth, two bangs happening a rev, over lapping, and equispaced.

Suggestion was that the almost trurbine smoothness of power delivery was contributory to the large incidents of high-side slides, and that the almost constant application of force to the wheel, meant that the motor was actually less responsive to changes of throttle, and so was the grip, more the predictability of grip; altering the firing intervals to achieve bigger pulses ad longer gaps between them, more akin to a V-Twin or single was supposed to make them more tractable and predictable, and make the 'power' more useable; which had bee Yamaha's claimed reason for success over Honda, who had for sucessive seasons always had ore power, but not won races on it. Yamaha's theory was that it wasn't about how much, but how useable, and had sacrificed peak for usable... Honda's reply was to make the ore, and try ad make it useable.. hece the big-bang motor's that took Doohan from serial crasher to seriel winer, in a season.

So whatever the theory, practically it did seem it work.

As to the question of reliability; was interesting that when the big-bang motors helped make the Honda's handle, and started leavig the Yam's and Zooks like they had thier own lane; I thik Suzuki were caught with a tape recorder in the pit lane and an osciloscope, tryng to fathom the Honda firig order.. and copied it by re-timing the cranks o ther engines... that then started chucking con-rods! So emprically, not great for engie longevity... And honda did comment that they had had to do a lot of engineering to make the motors hold together with the revised firing intervals.

Making a motor or tractable; implication for a very high powered ad relatively light road bike, would suggest it could have similar ad potentially more advantage, making the machine more manageable... but MEH! If you are riding that close to the ragged edge on the public road, it's unlikley to save many from crashing!

The even more over-weight, frame round the motor, to make working o it even harder, four spoke wheel... FOUR SPOKE.. that is just 'wrong'... Super-Dream? The one that sat on dealers floors un-sold for half a decade until they started giving them away?

In early 1988, one of the instructors turned up on one, having dropped his BMW in for service... we all thought it was the curtecy bike, until he admitted he'd had a test-ride on the then brand new 'Pan Euro, demonstrator and, decided to do a deal on one trading n the Bimer... which almost broke down when they told him the length of the waiting list for them on 'pre-order' as only the dealer demo bikes were actually in the country..... so they GAVE him the ruddy CB350 curtacy bike so he had wheels whilst he waited for the 'Pan! Lol!

I THINK that if some-one is daft enough or mad enough or misguided enough to actually admit to BUY one thirty years on, more suggest aspirations towards restoring it.... we can take their word... Some things, we REALLY don't need pictures of! Lol!

Negligible difference in power between the 400N, the 350 & the 450, would disincline me to bother TBH. Despite the Haris inspired frame, which I have to confess did look quite trick in 1988, it's a Twin-shock lardy-dream roundly derided for being even more lardy!

The odd four-spoke wheels, that do look rather like a pre-school childs drawing, asside, I actally thought they were quite a stylish middle-weight when I was 17; they just were a rather harder than usual to work on Super-Dream, that like most, had almost zero market value.. even in the dalers, where most that came into the country did end up curtecy bikes or despatch rentals and the like.

Given the current 'Nostalgia' value of 250 or 400N's, that have that more traditional styling, and were a memorable bike of thier era, i the 250 learner days, so do seem to command quite strong 'classic' prices if restored, the unloved 350, is probably one to avoid as any sort of project, as it was so ucommon, and parts wont be as easy to secure; they were harder to work on, ad most will have lead hard lives as unloved budget hacks for the last thirty odd years, and wont appeal to that same 'nostalgia' market or command a value anything like what renovating one is likely to cost.

Which is probably a pitty as they are 'interesting', and they probably weren't a 'bad' bike.. and certaily by contemprary stadards, I suspect that they aren't as lardy as lore suggests, it's just that the two smokes of that era were that much lighter and that much more spritely..

Compared to today's built down to a price emissions strangled lighter middle-weight offerings like say a CBR300 or even a CB500, I suspect one would likely offer quite good account of itself, on decent tyres and springs; and likely be a lot more interesting to ride as well as comfy!

Still doesn't make one an immediately attractive resto project though!

Not tackling these i order:-

I would imagine that the GN250 has a self exited ignition, like most smaller/older bikes, so sparks come straight from the magneto, when crank spun up.
How did you 'jump' the starter? Was the ignition switch 'on'? Did starter spin engine fast enough to make sparks? Have you checked at the spark-plug?

Classic syptoms of a Dodo-Battery.. might give 12v on the terminals, but without the amps in the acid, not eough beef to do more than latch the solenoid.
Dimming of the neutral lamp, also says that the terminal voltage is dropping big, when starter circuit made.

Putting two-and two together here, It's a common conundrum; a 'tired' starter motor, sucks more amps than it should; carbon brushes on the armature wear, and the carbon dust starts bridging contacts between wingdings; so the starter starts to such more amps from having more winding's effectively connected to the battery at any one moment, and those errant winding as well as taking power from the ones that should be shoving motor around, are fighting against the ones that are, slowing it down. Meanwhile the extra load the starter puts on the circuit, sees the solenoid start to 'arc' and pit as it makes contact; that increases it's resistance, so chokes power to the starter. Meanwhile, to get engine 'started' with a lazy starter motor, that wont spin t up so fast, and sucks more amps to do it, strains the battery, as it will have to provide more amps than it should, and usually for a lot longer before the engine 'catches'. This kills the battery.. So, eventually owners replace that, as 'obviouse' fault.. and problem seems 'solved'... only it isn't! Battery ow is good, but still struggling to deliver the amps demanded by tired starter, the new battery decays quickly, until problem recurs... ad owners, peeved, blame the battery as 'shit' and buy a new one... a-gain.. ad the cycle repeats until the starter gives out completely, or the solenoid is toast.

THAT is far too common.and likely 'part' of the problem you have. GN250 has a kicker, too, though doesn't it? Might be worth circumventing e-start using that. If not certainly for fault finding, using a car-battery on jump-leads, rather than rather diddy and possibly knackered little bike battery.

Meanwhile; be worth checking the solenoid, and making sure it is making the circuit when actuated; probably stripping and cleaning it; and having a poke in the starter motor, checking state of brush wear, probably replacing them, cleaning carbon off the comutator, cleaning up the contacts on that, greasing gear-pack and bushes etc.

BUT....

It went 'Clunk' and died.... split out the refusal to re-start, and certainly potential e-start issues. This is not relevent to why it conked out.

Good call; but doesn't actually tell you the engine's didn't seize, just it's not locked solid. Is a good confidence check; but don't read more into it than you truly know. Means engine still turns; nothing more; engine could have nipped up, and or lost a ring, or dropped a valve; possible maladies are many, and you wont 'know' until you start digging nto it.

Pull the spark plug.... this should always be first course action'; what was the engine doing immediately before t conked? Compare to chart.

Whilst plug is out, turn crank over carefully on a spanner, or kicker, through a good two or three rotations, does it pump wind out the hole? Do a rule of thumb compression tests, and see if its making any compression.

"Clunk" is intriguing; could hint at the cam-chain going and or a valve being smacked by the piston, or a big or little end bearing going, or even the gearbox just falling out of gear! Instant removal of load, could have made some other weak-link to go, or wicky-worky.... It doesn't really help poit to anything, so you just have to work logically, down the list fro the top....

Engine dont-run... so, spark, compression, fuel... ingredients for life. Which one missing... then dig down.

Valves would be my next port of call; ISTR GN has rockers with screw and lock-nut tappets; I also seem to recall, that it has four-valve head with two-lube OHCam; valves opened by forked rockers... But, I'd pull the rocker cover; check tapets, look for something daft ad obvious like a broken rocker or a lost tappet or tappet lock-nut! Or even a valve not moving!

Before, during or after that, I would probably do a proper compression test, WOT on e-start off a car battery. Could be a HGF... other than a gear jumping out take off load, couldn't count for the clunk and sudden stop; but?

I wouldn't be in too much of a hurry to try and get the engine to re-start, I WOULD be keen to find out why it stopped so suddenly first!

Common on the old two strokes was the engine would nip-up; seize under load, but almost instantly after seizing, be 'usiezed', still gear, back wheel driving engine, momentum wouldmack the piston 'free', engine would 'catch' on the 'bump' and folk wold ride home, ride around an complain that 'something' was wrong... usually piston rings smeared into the piston grooves! "Its making a terrible noise!"

In similar manner, you could have smacked a valve, or lost a main, big or little end, that momentum freed off before you coasted to a halt....

But engine stopping running suddenly o the road, isn't going to be a fault in the e-start system! Its something n the engine... so that's where I'd be looking. Could be something stupid and non-terminal... but liklihood s it isn't and to find not what, the head, and cylinder is likely going to have to come off at some point, to inspect valves, cam-chain, cam, rockers, etc. inspect piston, piston rigs and cylinder walls, waggle con-rod and look for any play in the crank.

But, work logcally; start at the plug; look under the rocker cover, work down; don't be in such a rush to make t run again, find out why it stopped ruining first! And the starter-system, as semi-stand-alone system, is a separate 'problem', problem isn't 'It wont start' problem is 'it stopped running'.. so find out why!

Does the GN have a battery topped, live-rail ignition though? If so; then genny should be putting all its output through the reg/rect onto the live rail, that will supply the ignition circuit, and once engine running, supplying sparks to keep engine running.

A flat battery should only take excess amps not being drawn by the ignition or equipment to 'charge', so once running engine should stay running on the amps banged out by the genny as long as its spinning... give or take...

Instances it wont, are likely if the motor was running at lower revs where the genny wasn't banging out too many amps, and other equipment like lamps were competing for them. In that situation head-lamp would tend to dim, long before sparks dropped out, and the ignition would more often start to intermittently 'drop out' rather than just 'die' suddenly, unless you co-incidentally turned on some other high-draw equipment, like pressing the brake pedal, turning on stop-lamp.

Battery, could rob amps, and sufficient to make the motor conk, if faulty, and plates warped and potentially shorting, and actually drawing current, but like a head-lamp, wouldn't expect it to suddenly make engine die; if that bad, I wouldn't expect it to start the engine to begin with; after that, I'd expect sparks to drop out intermittently, as it robbed amps from ignition, and make motor conk, most likely when revs drop.

Given how a tired solenoid and starter CAN kill a battery like that, I wouldn't dismiss the suggestion they may be to blame.... But, fact that bike don't start, isn't the same problem as why it stopped running.. that's what needs to be bottomed out.

Starter-motor, and solenoid help start bike, they don't stop it running, so cant 'directly' be the answer to that one. Battery 'may'... among host of possible electrical faults from a bullet connector shaking loose, to a wire fretting and shorting to the frame, through CDi giving up the ghost, or the reg-rect going toast-wise, or loosing a winding the genny. All of which may need to be bottomed out.... after primary course, 'just' checking for sparks, at the plug, on the kicker or a know good, preferably well over-rated car battery, after popping the rocker cover and checking for obvious, like snapped cam-chain, wide tappets or a lost lock-nut! (and performing basic service adjustments, just to eliminate dumb questions later!) And doing basic compression test, even if only rule-of thumb over the hole!

Nothing is really 'off the menu', but starter systems start engines.. they don't stop them! So not really at the top of the list for proddings and pokings, yet. But that's what needed here, I think; logical prodding and poking, looking at stuff that can stop engine running, once started, not what isn't starting it, and working down the list, methodically, no straw clutching.

'Trouble' with electrics is that they are too easy to tackle, to avoid looking at oily-bits, and then have you chasing your own shadow, rather than actually getting anywhere helpful... like repeatedly replacing battery, when root cause is a knackered starter motor!

Thoughts... you probably wot like them, but here goes.....

Your 21, you have been eligible to have a motorcycle on the road for four years; if you had the enthusiasm ad motivation for the things, you could by now have done your two years on CBT, stepped up, done the A2, had that tw years and been eligible for Ride-What-You-Like, unrestricted 'A' licence via accelerated-access.. ad right here, right now, have over four years two-wheel experience uder your belt and be able to pck pretty much any bike you like of any capacity; and with the sort of budget you are suggesting to buy a dressed up, 125 commuter, make believe sports bike that wants to be a Fire-blade, have enormousness choice of pretty much anything, of any amount of performance up to a 200mph Hyabusa...

Fact you have lost interest once, and done car tests; got a car, and found the cash to fund the punitive young driver premiums on those, suggests your enthusiasm for bikes is a little fickle.. which i tern begs suggestion that chaining yurself to a three year finace deal on a brand new 125, is probably not an amazingly pudent idea.

That bike; what almost £4.5K in the show-room; moment you wheel it out onto the road, it will barely be worth £3K. for 18 months those £100 payements will be chasing the depreciation and interest, and you will always owe more than you own, EVEN if nothing untoward occurs to de-value the thing.. like it gets scratched, dropped, crashed or nicked... you wont actually start owning any of that bike until after half way through the finance period, and would actually have to find money to be able to sell it on.

Do you think that your part time interest the thing as a second vehicle, just for 'toy' value, is likely to actually last that long? AND be worth that much money?

That's a lot of nights out you could be having each week, for a toy that will likely only come out of the toy-box, on high-days ad holidays when the sun is shining; but will still be costing you when ts burred behind the lawn mower. For the next THREE YEARS!

Modern consumer-credit-culture, I am sorry, is an anathema to me; If you cant pay cash, you cant afford it; end of. But even ignoring that old fashioned advice; its a heck of a lot of money, to buy a 'toy'.. ANY toy, and lets face it, a CBR125, a Learner-Cmmuter in a make-believe dress-up outfit trying to look like a Fire-Blade, is even more of a 'toy' than most occasional use second vehicle bikes, serving 'toy' duty!

You are 21; you aren't limted to 125's by age, falling into the A1 only bracket; you cant get a RWYL 'A' licence via DAS until you are 24, thogh could go get an A2... but, then if you had more enthusiasm for bikes, and a bit more dedcation to follow things through, when you had a 125 before, you could have done A2 when you were 19, and now be doing RWYL 'A' under accelerated access, and be lookig, at that sort of oney, pretty much ANY bike you like; Crckey you can pick up a Busa or Blade for less than that 125 will cost you; you could not just have any bike you like but the licence to ride it by now.

So, on a long term finance plan, where you will owe more tha the bike is worth, likely for the ext two years; how sure are you it will maintan yur interest, this time? How sure are you that 'other things', wont get n the way, or seem more important, and you start resenting the bike, you possibly dont get much use out of as G/F's or parents start moanng, or you are having to tell mates, "Sorry no, I cant afford it" when they are booking party holidays on the costa-del-get-pissed, or G/F wants you to take her somewhere 'romantic' or or or, well, whatever?

End of the day, it's your money... BUT...

My advice, motorcycles have no reverse gear... plan you suggest s goig back and coverg old grond, like repeat CBT... so MY suggestion, IF you wat t take it, is GO FORWARDS.

Do what you didn't first time about, and put the horse before the cart and get a licence. A2 will cost you a few hundred quid; and open the door to whole load more motorcycles; of which the 'standard' s likely far better, all round, either for cost or for performance.

Plenty of bikes out there for under £2K you could by on a bank-load, so you could for the same monthy, have the licence AND a better bike for it; or you ca keep the monthly's down buying something a tad cheaper, that will still likely have a lot more 'toy' value, from usefulness or exitement; that over three years old, the depreciation paid y first owner, EVEN on credit, shouldn't having you constantly chasing the credt-gap, unable to shift on of buy ot of for so long, if circumstances or interests or aspirations 'change'

Though, personally, for mere entertainment value; I would probably be looking at dedicated off-road bikes, you don't need a licence for, don't need to pay road tax on or have third party insurance on...

I did trials; after the bike, it cost £5 an entry, and as much again in fuel to get there and burn on the event! It's about as cheap as motor-sport gets; And I could compete an entre 12 round 'season' for less than it cost to buy a new pair of tyres on even one of the littler road bikes! Let alone the ruddy, insurance!

But, depends where your interests lie; track-days, road-racing; eduro whatever, all possible; and you can do an awful lot of it for the sort of mothly you ar cosdering spedng on a 125 on finace, let alone the monthly for the insurance on top! A-N-D likely get MORE ruddy pure fun saddle hours fro it, wthout worrying about scamera boxes !!!

Makes a heck of a lot of sense to me....

A 125 in a sports-bra, pretending to be a fire-blade... just doesn't!

If you want 'cheap' cheels for the road, then a regulation 3-4 year old learner commuter to save on petrol, or maybe cover times when an old banger of a car is broke down, may have some merit and sense behind it.... CBR125 very very little.. sorry.

Why go back and fantasies about ridng a sports-bike or being a road-race hero? For where you are at; you could, for the sake of going and getting a popper licence, go get a genuinely 'sporty' bike, or actually go do real road-racing, rather than pretend!

But a three year credit deal, that for two years will see you owe more than you own; oh so likely to be nickd or crashed before you have pad for t; and leave you reading a book at home whilst mates are out having fun the sun, or girl-friends would like you to be wing and dining them?

Plan, as t stands, to me, sounds like a mill-stone... sorry.

I don't want the chap to do anything, in-particular.
Unfortunately the 3DL 3-Tier licence system is here, it's what we got and what new riders have to suck up, and try make the most of.
We've debated the topic before; and I still hold the opinion, that there was a lot of sound ideas that got perverted into the 3-tier licence system; and that the mandatory age qualifications and DAS make a mockery of most of it! As we've debated many times before.

However; For where OP's at; for sort of money he's talking spending; he could do A2 by DAS, and get an SV650 or similar, and still have change in his pocket; and have far more 'bike' as a second leisure vehicle, than a CBR125, and in two years, with a full bike licence in his pocket, rock back p to test on it, pull the 'restrictor' in the car-park, slap on the L-Plates and re-do tests for the RWYL licence, for less than £100, and have the full-monty licence in his pocket a year ahead of siting t out until he's 24.

Another CBT and locking himself into a finance deal on a fancy 12, he'll still be payg for until after the next CBT has expired, really doesn't see him make any progress, and likely does more to actually hamper him getting anywhere.

'Cheap" comuter 125, and A1, was muted, and does make sense as a second 'back-up' vehicle, and maybe some cost cutting on commuter petrol, and a bit of sunny day fun along the way, but, obviously not the aspirational 'feel-good-fix' of the 'new toy', probably not what OP's really lookig for.

Actual recommend, was that for 'pure toy', an off-road comper that can be dragged behind the car to P&P, track-days or events, would likely offer far more 'fun' and far more real, fun-filled saddle hours, for the money, possibly even less money, not having the on-road overheads, and NO licence required, and far less risk the thing would be a mill-stone stopping him do stuff, whilst he actually gets on and does the sort of stuff, for real, make-believe bikes like the CBR125 only let him pretend he's doing... makes sense in my world!

I've had a full licence for almost forever; still have a few 125's in the fleet; even pondered whether I could live with 'just' a 125; but; actually more to insure a year than the Seven-Fifty, and I rarely get much better MPG, especially as the 'fun' I find in riding the 125 is ragging the arse off it, indulging in re-teen-dream, finding the 'fun' in having to work the thing hard just to make some decent progress on it... WHICH, I have to say, I find a darn site more rewarding than clambering on proper 'sports-bike', which does little apart from make 'fast' easy, and speed-blur long ago lost it's novelty value to me!

125's can be fun, and I could probably live with 'just' a 125, but wouldn't be saving me anything for it, and conclusion was, that I'd not get 'as much' fun from it all-round, as I just wouldn't reach for the 125 keys to do a 200 mile trip, or stick a pillion on the back, or load up with camping gear for a week-ender.. it would only get used for round town popping to the shops or re-teen-hooliganism on the odd sunny day trash.. I 'have' done longer runs on a 125, and carried pillions, and loaded them up for touring... even fairly recently, but I'm way past 21 now, and there are limits to how hard I want to make things for myself! And that sort of stuff, is where the 'easy' bigger bikes offer tends to be more appreciated, and I'm not so inclined to do that sort of stuff, just for 'fun'!

O/H used the 125 to commute; personally, 'having' to deal with twits in boxes in city rush-hour snarl is not my idea of 'fun' before I even start! Did work out 'economical' for her, and beat bus-fares whilst being a truck site cheaper than a car, but? If you are already paying for a car? I'd rather get up twenty minutes earlier, make up a thermos-flask of coffee, and st it out in the box.. enjoying the coffee and lack of 'stress' whilst I wake up in the am!

Save it for the week-end! When, I could hang the bike off the back of the box; and head out to an event; Get four hours of full quota, non stop, 'on the limit' thrilling saddle time in for it, no road-works, dodderng Sunday Drivers or U-Turnng tractors, or other inconveniences, and no risk of a NIP in the post.. and any points mean prizes not penalties, when the results sheet comes in!

Trials is so cheap and so popular, and the scene so active, plenty to keep the motivation going, and LOADS of opportunity to get out ad do some! I rode with two clubs, which gave me 22 scheduled events a year, within the clubs championships to tackle; about one a fortnight; but many many more opportunities for guest entries with more still, and to do mid-week 'evening' trials even, as well as practice sessions or club training days or evenings; and that's without chucking myself into the admin side of the club, or the social events!
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PostPosted: 01:23 - 22 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used to get all that, something in the order of 80 hours competition time a year, plus perhaps half as much again on practice days or evenings, 'all in' for less than the insurance renewal on my road bike... which when I commuted on it? Gave me, not many more saddle hours of frustration, dodging steering wheel gnashers, sat behind tractors covering me in mud or straw, wearing out expensive tyres & chains and brake pads, between traffic lights (and a couple of penalty codes on my licence!)!!

Toy or Transport.. trying to get a toy on the back of transport, is to my mind like trying to hold a disco on a double-decker bus..... maybe a novelty, but compromise rather damps ability to get the best of either!

Beware; there aren't many 'naturally' A2 complaint bikes about, certainly over 500cc and none that I know of that have pointy fairings, two front brake discs or more than two cylinders... ie 'sports bikes'.

Almost anything, over 500cc will have to be 'restricted' to be made A2 complaint, and that 'restriction' is technically a declarable 'mod' t insurance co's and likely to put the premium up, especially if you are looking on comparison sites, which don't actually cross reference bikes to licence entitlement.

As has been mentioned, even the Hornet, which is not really a sports-bike, makes more power than may even be restricted to be made A2 complaint, as do, I believe all the later 600 Fazers; only the earlier air-cooled examples, like Bandits and XJ600's are actually 'restrictable'.

Suzuki GSXR is one that always causes controversy; factory declared specs, which law go by puts it over the max restrictable power for an A2 licence, despite many trying to black independent rear-wheel-horsepower numbers to 'imply' that it is....

There hasn't actually been ANY 600 class sports bike built that is naturally A2 complaint, since the class was created by the Kawasaki GPZ600R way back in 1984(?); That, possibly the very earliest jelly-mold CBR and the air-cooled FZ600, are probably about the nly oes that by dint of age eve stand a chance of being restrictable; and I'd have far more worry over the mechaics of such an old thrasher bike to put me off them, well before that became an 'issue'!

And insurers, as said, dot often duble check or check too closely whether you actally can make a bike you want insurance for A2 eligible... that is down to you, by law... if they give you a cert for a bike you dont have a licence for, and crash it, then the would be obliged to honour 3rd party cover, same they would if crashed by a twockker... but exactly like being crashed by a twockker, they could then persue YOU to make good any consequential losses for riding bike illegally.

Most 'sporty' A2 bike, you could find is likely the SV650, which in full power trim, makes a pretty healthy 75bhp, and IS restrictable to A2 limits; and fairly easily. Is critisised for being a bit bland, but, it aint THAT vanilla! 75hp is a pretty useful amout to have, in any bike, in it's full power mode, whilst restrcted to A2 licence 45bhp, nothing is going to have that am wrenching 'awesome'.. but even 45bhp is going to offer plenty of that compared to a 15bhp 125!

'Smart Money' for a A2 bike, I have to say, has to go on a Honda CB500, though. The older sit-up-and-beg commuter model... it AINT flashy by a very long stretch; but, daftly Honda had a 'one make' race series for them; and they proved remarkably spritely, with negligible mods from stock for the series, and many were later pressed into service i the 'mini-twins' series that followed, where up against the bigger, more powerful SV they still managed to equit themselves pretty well, and even still 'win' fro time to time!

Incredibly versatile and capable motorcycle; on the surface a rather uninspiring city commuter or despatch hack; yet the sort of all-round capability for that, and long haul touring, AND racing? Seen a couple stuck on knoblies as low rent adventure bikes, and one of them even went half way around the world for Help for Hero's, ISTR tackling the sort of terrain in Africa that had Ewan & Charlie floundering on thier Stock-Broker 'Action-Man' Bimmers!

And you ca pick up one of these things for as little as £500, ride away ready?!?!?!?

Sod the fiance deals or a bank-loan, for one of the newer models with Toys-R-Us frock on! You could have a bike with some genuine sporting pedigree, for less than the ruddy cash down deposit, IF you aren't so hung on on the looks...

Only possible niggle is the London congestion Zone regs, that ISTR are quirky; Do they actually ban older bikes yet, or is that still in the pipe-line? BUT, for leisure use, rather than commuting, who cares!

A grand would get you a good'n. Not 'looking' so sprty would actually be positive advantage; It wouldn't grab so much attention, you had to carry a restriction cert about with you to pacify suspicious plod so often; let alone fight your corner that it was restrtable, and restricted and in licence limits; has as much 'performance' as you can have on an A2, and all the capability to have a good thrash on it, but also, go intercontinental touring, and anythig else; its an uncompromised 'all-rounder' that woudl let you experience so much more of ALL bking, other than pretendig to tear around in circles with your arse i the air, waiting for a shafting!

Again, makes a LOT of sense to me; and an older bike, likely even cheaper insurance; THAT would be my bench-mark to judge the rest by. Under 600c I think it saves a tax category too....

End of the day, it's your call, but on A2, if ts got four cylinders, two front brake discs, or pointy sporty plastics, then good chance you cant have it on A2, if it has two out of three of them, you are n with a chance, if it has none of them, you are probably onto a winner, that will, on restriction limits, not lack much but looks and deliver as much, and possibly more, for a LOT less money.

I the big-Bike world, you REALLY don't need be so hung up on the age; as muttered, so many bikes are so more often pure leisure toys; They ted to be built to a higher grade of durability, and less degraded, even if they do cover the miles as smaller bikes, but they frequetly don't, and owned most often by more grow-up riders, with a licence to ride them, who aught know a bit more than learners, they tend to get a bit better looked after and not suffer quite the same excesses of butcher mechanics as 125's do; so you can get a better bike, in better nick for your money that often is cheaper to but AND to run! ALL for that licence in your pocket.

Now, stop fantasy shopping; put the time into dong Theory/Hazard practice! THAT's probably the most difficult bit of the job! Get that, do your A2 course.. everything else will start to fall into place in due diddly!

Have fun.

If you cant do the time, don't do the crime.

You have modified your ped beyond the restrictions imposed by your, I presume, provisional, licence entitlement, specifically not only to knowingly ride a machine you don't actually have licence entitlement to ride, but also to exceed the speed limit for that vehicle type, whilst failing to declare the modifications that render your ped, no longer a ped, and a motorcycle, explicitly so that you may evade detection and prosecution for that crime....

Yet STILL got caught!?!?!

I'm not sure what's dafter, to be honest! You will in due course (up to 14 days), receive a NIP or notice of Intended Prosecution through the post, if the camera was actually 'active', and actually took your photo, and they were able to read your registration no.. and care to peruse a prosecution for exceeding the posted speed limit....

NIP should state exactly what they intend to prosecute you for.... if you are lucky bureaucrat inefficiency will mean they simply issue the usual money-with menaces letter asking you to plead guilty of exceeding the posted speed limit, and accept points and fine, and not actually put two and two together, and spot the fact that you were managing to exceed the posted speed limit, on a machine that shouldn't be capable of exceeding the speed limit, and hence actually niether the vehicle declared on your insurance or that you have licence entitlement for, and choose to chuck the book at you.....

In which case you could be pretty screwed, and you could be charged with any number of offences you were actually committing, from riding other than in accordance, to riding without valid insurance; insurance fraud, for obtaining insurance by deception; exceeding the sped limit for the road, as well as exceeding the speed limit for the vehicle type; riding a vehicle other than descried on the registration, and attempting to pervert the course of justice, deliberately, and with foresight, attempting to ride a motorcycle disguised as a moped, for the deliberate purpose of breaking the law, and exceedg speed limits for ehicle type and road.... probably having a bad case of acne, or just being criminally ugly as well as daft, depending on how flattering the Gatso photo happens to turn out... and anything else they can think of.

You have two weeks, of suspenders, to wait for the NIP to be delivered. Not much point worrying about it, now though is there... just ask the dog to shift over a bit on the door-mat when you take up residence to wait the NIP through the front door, and don't steal all its' blanket!

If you are lucky, the dawg may get a bit friendly during the night, and when your mum spots the wet patch on your pajamas, explaining the speeding ticket to your Dad, probably wont seem such a big deal

When a bike is registered with DVLA, they register the manufactrer's declared deals, vis make, model, engine cc, colour and VIN number.

There are SOME things on that registratio that may be changed; for example, if you re-paint it, then you can tell them the new colour; if you fit a new engine; you are supposed to tell them the new engine number; if you bore out the egne, you are supposed to tell them the new cc...

DVLA will usually, these days actually request 'evidence' to support the requested change of details; usually a letter headed letter from a reputable mechanic or authority like an owners club... which they may or may not accept... if they don't then they can 'suspend' registration pending a VIC or Vehicle Identity Check at a VOSA inspection center.

When Snowie registered the change of colour on her 125, from 'Red' to 'NOT black' that actually looks black, we sent them a photo of the thing, showing it was, well, NOT red, with the paint tin she used to pant it on the tank, with the label saying 'Dark Aubergine' clearly in view....THEY decided t should be 'Purple' and were happy enough.

I THINK they would be a little less accomodating if I was to try and change teh registration of my 1981 'Montesa' motorcycle, and tell them, "Err, actually its now a HONDA.. cos Honda bought the Montesa' a year after Montesa made it.....

They would similarly not accept me trying to change the registration declaration of the model of my CB Seven-Fifty, trying to tell them that NOW it was actually a VF1000!! No matter how many stickers I stuck on the thing saying VF1000, or how much actual VF1000 bits I grafted into it....

As far as DVLA would be concerned, my CB Seven-Fifty is, was and will forever remain a CB Seven-Fifty... I ould put a VF100 engine in t; I could put VF100 bodywork on it, but as long as it had the CB Seven-Fifty frame, and the VIN number of that CB Seven-Fifty frame... It is and will remain a CB Seven-Fifty!

Could be a heavily modified CB Seven-Fifty, that might have a Suzuki GSXR engine in it; could have solid strut hard-tail conversion, a coffin tank, ape hangers and Harley fat boy forks, with Kawasaki wheels, Yamaha brakes, and Triumph body-work... matters not a jot. As far as registration is concerned, it remains a Honda CB Seven-Fifty! At least until the number of mods beg an SVA under the points system, at which point the whole thing would require re-registration, which is slightly more involved than a simple VIC... and they would then decide whether enough original manufacturers donor model remained to still call it a 'Honda CB Seven-Fifty' and if not; ask me to offer a my own makers name and model, say "Teflonian" for make, and "Mark One Mistake" for model, to enter on the NEW registration.

So..... Your 23 year old college, COULD have a full unrestricted category A motorcycle licence; IF he passed his motorcycle tests before he was 19 under the 'old' rules, when testing on a 125 would have awarded him a full unrestricted A licence, with 2 year, auto expiring 33bhp power probation, that would have lapsed over two years ago.. he wouldn't have been old enough to have gained an unrestricted 'A' straight off the stops via DAS, under the pre 2013 3DL rules, as he'd not have been over 21 to be eligible. Already being 19 when 'new' rules came in, he could have tested for A2, at 19, and by 'accelerated access' been eligible to test for unrestricted 'A' at any time after he'd held that two-years, without waiting until he was 24, so could STILL have an unrestricted A-category licence, and NOT need be hampered by A2 licence restrictions...

But degree of bollox in the story would tend to suggest he probably doesn't even have ANY bike licence!

As to the R6.. no; absolutely NO way, no Chance no HOW, you can legally ride one on an A2 restricted licence.. it is far outside of the limitations to BE restricted.. whether an insurance company would quibble that; whether they would request proof or restriction; whether he could blag that with some sort of Pady Cert? Who knows.. some don't even ask for a cert of restriction, there is no such thing recognized let alone required by law! And they are often more than happy to take your money, especially if the premium they ask is a "You gotta be daft if you pay this" one! But that wouldn't make it legal, and he'd still be at risk of challenge and prosecution by plod for riding other than in accordance if challenged... and onus of proof would be on him to prove his innocence, rather than plod to prove his guilt, if manufacturers declared specs are outside of those that meet A2 restrictions or that fall within the restrict able limits.

Bottom line? Who knows, who cares! He may have a bike, he may ot. He may have a licence, he may not. Folk try ad make out that YZF-R125's are R1's by diddling the decals! What licence he may or may not have, what bike he may or may not have, remains speculation; all you can be sure of, is that HE thinks that an R6 is a bike that you aught to be as much in awe of as he obviously is!

Smile and nod... do you REALLY care? Whether he has any licence, or any bike, or if he has an R6 or if he may be riding an R6 he doesn't actually have a licence for? Do you actually care how full of shit he may or may not be? (Provided he doesn't T-Bone you on the ruddy thing!) Treat him like a fruit machine, and heed the warning "For entertainment purposes only" next to the slot in the front!

Pretty hard to 'go-back' when I still have most of the bikes I have ever bought! The only ones to have escaped are a DT50 and an AR125, really... I have few rose tinted memories of the DT50, and would NOT wish to suffer one ever again!

The AR125 is another story; I actually woke up in the middle of a nightmare some months ago, in which I was arguing with my mother and Step-father over "When will you move this dam bike out of our garage!" which was a bit surreal... was actually the last place it was seen, quarter of a century ago, rather mangled, after getting it back of plod, before is-co came and took it away, and 'dream' argument was sort of a time slide, trying to explain that the bike had been taken away twenty five year ago, BUT on turning up to open shed and prove it was gone, being shown it sat there, NOT smashed and in bits, but whole, and having to ride it 'home'... i which 'dream' considered the conflict between now and twenty five years ago, and where in this surreality 'home' might be.....

When woke up, it DID sort of suggest I might miss the poor little thing; but I also recall I had been riding it for almost a year beyond my full licence, getting ever more blase about how hard I ragged it, and convinced that if I carried on, I WOULD probably kill myself on it... and revisiting teen-dreams, I actually took a tangent and got that Yamaha Enduro to restore to do 'different', and when that went west, looked at alternative teen dreams by way of the KR1S I had wanted when I was 19, and the Moto-Guzzi GT1000 had also rather aspired to, to do something I HADN'T done, rather than re-do something I had....

So no, really little drive to re-visit bikes that WERE part of my past... and aren't any-more.... I mean, I have had my Montesa Cota for over 30 years, since was 15! Its still part of my present! The VF-Thou that was a large chunk of my pre-married life, is still here, too... and probably beyond hope of redemption, and have ever less enthusiasm to restore it, or get another, now.

About the only one I am occasionally tempted by is an air-cooled RD250. I had wire-wheel '77 example... a very BAD example, I had circa 1986, that I never really got to do any miles on; It was an abomination, with far too many twit-attempts at tuning when it was L-Plate eligible! A pig to start, tended to only run on one pot until 6K then went mental! And was quickly traded on, as I had no real use for it! That would similarly not so much be going 'back' to something I have done, but something that bike didn't give me the chance; either to do a full ad proper resto, or experience a well sorted example of the breed.

In a similar vain, I did pull a Vespa 90 out of a scrap heat when was a school-boy; a motorcycle of MUCH wonder... I spent most of my time taking it to bits and putting t back together 'Wondering' how such a fundamentally flawed design could ever 'work' let alone be hailed as a design icon! I never actually got to ride that one... my Grandad had stolen it's front wheel from the same scrap-heap for his wheel-barrow, and I got into a LOT of trouble, after I got the Vespa running, and tried to borrow it back! Again occasionally have 'second chance' pangs, but usually looking at PX200's rather than 90's!

Closest I actually came to one was spotting one on e-bay with a side-car, which just bowled me over, as SUCH an automotive anathma; I mean not only has it got wheels too small, and the engine in the wrong place, AND not even on the same axis, SOME-ONE had chucked a CHAIR on the side to go the whole hog of utterly unreasonable compromises! For which reason alone, I just wanted to sample the thing!

But.... Motorbikes have no reverse gear.... you cant go backwards, just do something the same, differently, which, to my mind with SO much that could be done in biking has to be better of doing the same thing on something different but not as good as just dong something 'different'.... I have as yet to own a hard-tail chop, for example.. or ridden a speedway bike, so whilst such novelties remain to be explored... stuff I already have, takes a back-seat!

Have you really not come across / dealt with polyethalene bases and stapled cover's before? They seem to have been the norm on most stuff since the early 80's, and usually tabbed tin bases, usually with rotten tabs that vex folk...



That's off one of the more recent 125-S-D's, and showing how the solution to the staple issue, vis they so oft don't want t go in, and you end up with rucked cover, is small, short self tappers and large penny washers. Penny washers are the key, and stop the vinyl chasing the screw head.

Moving on; there seem to be a few more pro-saddle services about these days for custom & classic, b-u-t... seem to be ££££££££... is a Chinky POS worth treating to one?

Going old-skool and digging in there with a bread-knife, bits of camping mat, and cushion foam off the market, and a PVC miniskirt with a fag hole in it, would probably be the way to play.....

B-U-T... what do you think is making the OE seat uncomfy? Foam density? Width? Shape? Or, the 'slope' actually on the bike? Could be a lot of 'crafting' to not actually make matters better.

First up do you have a work-hop manual for the thing?
WHY on earth have you started tinkering with the carburetor; THE most intricate bit of mechanics on the bike?
Yeah.. its what every one says to do... but its also where so many make more problems than they solve.... did you use new gaskets when you put it back together and onto the bike? Did you set the float height to the level specced in the work-shop manual?
You don't kow what the pilot air-screw settings should be WHY on earth are you fiddling with them?

Starting at the top; if a bike is hard to start; frst thing to check is the state of the spark plug.

Next is to go through the basis routine service items, like checking the valve clearances, manually adjusting the cam-chain tension; changing the oil; cleaning the air-filter; and putting in fresh petrol.

THEN checking for obvious issues like, fuel flow from the tank hose, or water contamination from condensation in the tank, or crud clogging the gauze filter in the fuel tap....

You don't dive straight into THE most intricate bit of the engine with a screwdriver, BLIND, and hope to find something 'obvious' you can 'Fix'!!!

If you are on a budget and cant afford paid mechanics to do your maintenance and repairs for you; then you need to learn to DIY...

This starts with the workshop manual, not google and U-tube tutorials; to get the real data and instrctions; also begs some tools, some often probably specialist ones, like tappet adjusors as well as good feeler guages, not just petrol station and pound shop screwdrivers and push-bike spaners... none of which is costless, and has to be factored against what you might save paying a pro.

BUT, the unfortunate here and now is; having pulled the carb blindly, you probably need re-visit that, with the book, and make sure you have done the job properly; then put it back on, where necessary with new gaskets; THEN do all the basic service items you aught to have done to start with, THEN see if you still have a 'problem'.

Very Very good chance that all that the bike needed was a basic service, t likely has never had! And doing that, your problems will go away;

But, we don't have the bike in front of us to poke and prod, we ant see what you or any previous owner has done to it either by way of maintenance, repairs or likely dubious 'mods' to try and enhance performance... you do. We cant fault find for you by voodoo... so start with a work-shop manual, and work fro there, and STOP stabbing wildly at it, in vain hope, likely making problems for yourself.

Add on Ed:-

If you are banging down gears for a junction, then revs will rse, and possbly a lot dependng how many gears yo crash down; respectve of what you do wth the throttle.

Very common Newby error is to short shift, and goup too many gears at far to slow a speed, and have to come back down all of them in a hurry slowng for junctions; this is quite likely no fault of the bke, but the rider.

Could also be that the throttle slide is stickig, which if you have re-assembled it wrong, or a PO has, could be stucking, or that the throttle cable is not properly notched in the adjuster, stoppig the slide travel all the way to 'rest'... aga, symptoms of messng with the carb when probably not needed.

Could also be fuel surge from incorrectly re-assembled or badly adjusted float height; again due to similar fiddle-fingers.

See above advice; start at the top; get the book, re-do what you have done, and make sure you do it properly with new gaskets so everything that should seal does; do a basic sercice; make sure all other anticipated variables are eliminated, like tappet clerances, cam-chain tension, and a knackered old spark plug; see what's what when you have base-lined it to what the book says it should be.

And if you are a fresh new rider, DONT leap to blame the bike for something that at this ponit quite probably is something you are doing wrong, like over-shifting gears, rather than the bike isn't doing right.

Err... if you can ride reasonably well, should be no need to pick up a heavy bike, I would have thought?

As to correct technique; a suggestion I would agree with for most things bike related... but what would be the correct technique for picking up a toppled Gold-Wing? Would that be the sailboard approach of a rope on the low-side and jumping up and down on the up-side foot-peg and chucking yourself backwards? The hail a taxi and borrow the scisor jack, technique? Or the Yuppie-Phone and AA-Card aproach?

Actually, the 1/4 ton 'Seven-Fifty' went over this week... on the Patio! Snowie had shifted her bludi-guzzi to take the battery out, and left me inced over for a parking spot; so I left it on the side-stand, rather than the cetre, and it seems stand had found the 'hole' in cracked slabs. Sat there quite hapily for two days, every time I saw it through the kitchen window when I filled the kettle; then had one of them moments when I went to make a coffee, and 'something' was amis... Oh SH!T! What the effs the bike doing on it's side!?! When after third glance I twigged....

Curiousely; my first reaction was to check the yard gates, and fence panels for signs of forced entry and swear about the local scroats... then eye the cats on the fence suspiciousely.... but seems that living on a hill, rain water took its time to filter through the top soil and soften that TINY little bit of mud that happened to be holding up the kick-stand!?!?!?

Meanwhile Snowie had chucked her shoulder under the hadlebars and tipped it back on its wheels, muttering something about "MEN! Can NEVER get it up when they need to!"

So I deffer.. correct techique, is probably that you need to be a woman

Hmmmm.. 125' do make great training tools. And they aren't necesserily any lighter than 'big-bikes'. Weight of a bike is almost utterly independant of thier displacement, which is just the size of hole in the engine where fire happens.

My 250, is twice the 'size' of our 125's but half the weight; and there are many many similar examples where a lot of 125's, noteably the much vaunted Honda 125 Very-oh-dear-oh, which is actually heavier than many 500 middle-weights.

More still, regardless of how 'big' a bikes engine, or how heavy it may be on the scales, that has very little relevence either to how 'manageable' it is to either push around or ride slowly, or even pick up if it topples.

That 250 I just mentioned is a comp-trials bike; for 30 years I have chucked the thing around quarreys and woods and stuff, and even though it is delberately very very light, as in about 75Kg, and I can litterally pick it up and throw it on the trailer to go to an event; on a section, falling off the ruddy thing can be a complete pregnant pig to haul out of a hole or the mud, or whatever, depending on 'how' it's gone over, or whether I happen to be underneath it at the time....

Actually THAT has been the most common case! When a bike goes down, there is a perverse reaction to try and 'save' it! I have actually bounced down a 30ft cliff face, with the bike on top of me,and when I got to the bottom, a little huddle of observers, marshals and spectators, all peering down asking "Are you alright?!"... Ugh? I have just fallen off an effin CLIFF! What the bludy hell do you THINK! Dont ask stuuupid questions.... Hows the bike? Lol

But as said, if you still have a few marbles left, you shouldn't be going out of your way to find situations where you 'need'pick up a toppled motorcycle; and it Is somethg you should try avoid, for the most part, and it is should be a rare occurance, that you just deal with when you have to, as best as.

For where yu are at, seems you are letting other peoples predjudices and your own pre-conceptions hugely influence your ideas and opinions in the abscence of actual experience... and they, if anything are most likely to be hinder to more meaningful 'learning'

I DO so often advocate tiddlers; as said they can be great trainig tools; they aren't so daunting to look at, or to get on and ride; they ARE usually lighter and often that bit easier to man-handle; though that is signifcantly influenced by 'style'.

The 'boring' 125 learner/commuter like the Yamaha YBR125, is the defacto choice of first bike, for very very many reaons; mostly economic, BUT, that 'style' is a no nonsense one. The ridng position is normal, and netral, 'sit up and beg', makes the erganomics pretty unversal, and fits most folk reasonably well, whether you are tall or short, skinny or porky. From that upright rding position, you have best balence and control over the machine, as well as best all-round visability; this all makes them 'easy' to get to grips with and get on with the job of learning, without undue compromises.

Snowie (my 5'4" 1/4 ton seven-fifty lifting O/H!) had a string of 125's from sporty Yamaha TZR's to the AJS Cruiser-Thing she had when she met me... That cruiser thing is actually a pretty useful case example; she was steered towards it on the misguided notions that as a woman, of shorter leg, its low seat meant she could 'comfortably' prop it up, flat boot both sides.... err... yeah! Pity that the footpegs on 'forward controls' stretched her little legs to the extent she couldn't really use the back brake ad struggled to hange gear, whilst took me AGES to spot her cornering problem was down to the high-wide bars, and the fact that shen she had to turn she was having to lean the wrong way, to keep hold of the ruddy hadlebar as it turned!! Be warned, these are often suggested to lady-riders for similar reasons, if the shiny chrome doesn't have the bling effect on them ayway! But they aren't a partcularly useful learning tool, for any-one really. Similarly the dressed up sports bikes; which tend to have a more bum up, head down riding position, that's not so wonderful for low speed control, and oft hampers alrond visability, whilst the narrow handlebars and limited steering lock can make them peculiarly hard to weave through slow speed cones and things.

NOW, as a training tool, a regulation learner/commuter can be a wonderful thng; uncompromised for any percieved sense of style, they do tend to be one-size-fits all, and they are reletively 'easy' to ride and let you get to grips with the basics.

Even if you Do-DAS, you will have to complete CBT and you will likely do that, or most of it, on a 125 for this reason, before steppig up to the bigger bike.

On CBT excersises, a 125 is a lot less of a hand-ful to get to grips with straight off the stops; AND in many ways is actually more 'demanding' to ride... this is how they 'teach' you dont learn if its tooo easy!

Low powered and usually lighter weight; a 125 will take some revs to launch from a stand still without stalling, and once moving wthout s much weight to 'damp' clmsy movement or control nput they will be a lot more nclined to wobble as you flap feet around, wonderig what to do wth them, before gettig them on the pegs and stuff, which is whe you will likely make it wobble more.. and then some, when you quite rapidly have to make a gear-shft as they run out of thier limited power at quite a low speed.

BUT, if you can learn to launch a lightweight smoothly and aquire the discipline to get feet on pegs early ad not flap about, and make smooth gear changes on one... you are onto a winner... smoothness is KEY to almost all in biking.

On a 500 or 650, that has more weight and more power; you can very much more readily launch smoothly, as the engine has that much more stomp not to stall and has that much more 'flexibility' you dont need to be so precice with it, and it has that much more mass to 'damp' wobbles before they begin, and give you more chance to catch them or rde through them, and appear 'smooth'... but you wont get that inate feel or instill that diligence and discipline that a ligtweight can....

So they can short-cut you to geting going, side-steppng that foundation stone of being smooth and tidy and learning that diligence and discipline a 125 can instill, and get you off the stops that much sooner, and out on the road and doing..

And here-in lies the pit-fall of DAS; A short 'crash-course' is not going to teach you to be a master rider in a friggng week; when EVERYTHING you need to learn, and all the oportunity you have to pactice it, and probably the tests, have to be crammed into maybe just 30 hours of saddle time....

Might get you a licence; likely teaches you a fair chunk more than just CBT, BUT, big dager is that skippng over key-stones like the diligece and discipline of slowspeed control and being smooth, it doesn't actually instil those foundations very well, and likely deminishes thier importance, as you rush to cover all you need to do the tests.

Two common outcomes of intensve DAS, which are to a degree 'imersion learning' in which for a week, you eat sleep and breath nothng but 'BIKE'.. you come out all bouted up and over confident, covinced you have done the course, got the licence, you are ow ready for anything.... OR you get out, and left to your own devices, bereft of the instructons in your ear over the radio, no longeri n 'DAS World'... your mind goes blank, and you dont remember a thig, and are left to try and remember what you were told, and put the peces together for yourself and make some sense of it.... quite possibly on a very large displacement, potentially very high performance motorcycle, that likely wont suffer fools lightly.....

Oh-Kay.... you dont want a 125... well... as mummy used to say you want your pudding, you gotta eat your veg!

Your first bike is just that; it doesn't have to be your only, once and forever till death do us part ONLY motorcycle! Its JUST a stepping stone along the way!

Crickey, you are buyng the darn thing, not marrying it! Thank gawd! It wont take your house if you try and get rid! It wont even moan if you have a little harem of the ruddy things, let alone ride some-one elses!

So, for where you are at; drag your field of vision back a bt to the bit of road you are riding here and ow, not the road two thousand miles ahead on an intercontental balistic tour, you may ever go on! And dont get lost n that bit of gravel under your front wheel here and now, find the centre, somwhere between where you are at, and where you can 'see'. Dont obscess on the minutea of the gravel uder your front wheel, or get lost in fatasy of what must be over the horizon! Deal with the heare and now!

And for that, a 125 Learner/Commuter IS likely a step along the way; ehether its for the first twenty minutes or hour or two of CBT on your course, covering the basics and getting started, OR buying your wn as a trainng tool, so that you can practice what you learn in lessons and nail down that key-stone of 'smooth'.

Little heads up for you, to conter anti-125 snobbery; I have been riding bikes best part of 40 years, of all szes and shapes and in dfferent disciplines; and like many borng old farts mature long standing riders, I still apreciate ad actually LIKE 125's and have a little collection of the ruddy things....

After the machismo 'race' to get as much bigger-better-faster-more' as you ca after a full licence, often becomes aparent that the bigger-better faster, ISN'T actually delvering very much 'more' of anything.... and often LESS can be 'more'..

Have mentioned the fact that 125's can be great traig tools, not having the flexbility or mass to make stuff seem so easy whe first starting, so can beg you aquire that much more diligence and discipline. But after umpety years of bigger-better-faster-more, and bigger bikes, often doing little more than go ever faster, ever more easily (and usually costing ahell of a lot more money for it along the way!) Tiddlers, CAN be a revalation when you get back to them, begging that much more rider discipline, diligence, skill and involvement, JUST to make decent progress... and suddenly bacome a LOT more 'fun' to ride than bgger bikes.. oft excentuated by the fact that they do it on a wiff or petrol, and less money, and just dont beg the same level of 'seriouseness'.

Many long-standing riders, find this and ether return to tiddlers, or have one or more in thier lttle harem, for this exact reason.

They AREN'T toys or kiddie bikes! To be demeaned and ridiculed. End of the day, on a bike we face the same risks and dangers of the road, whatever we ride. most significant one is the numpty holding the handlebars. Now 125's can usually go as fast as ANYTHING is legally allowed to go in this country; and they ca break a heck of a lot of speed-lmits alog the way. Their lesser performance is NO guard against crashing! So bigger bikes, oft just make it easy to go as or faster; and IF you are a numpty just crash quicker!

Ironically, most 125's, these days, are most often every-ay low cost utility transport, that work for thier living, frequetly cranking up more miles little and often, than big bikes, so often pampered in the garage, where they live most of the year, until the su shines, to be thrashed aroud the lanes or pottered to the wine bar.. 'just for fun' Hmmm.. which sounds more like a 'toy'?

This MAY influence how you percieve 125's and influence some of the reaons you think, here and now you dont want one... may not convince you that getting one is a great idea, BUT.. fact that they aren't rediculouse, that they are like Thomas the Tank engine, VERY 'useful' little machines, that can deliver a heck of a lot of usefulness, and fun FAR out of proportion to thier engine displavement, I hope might suggest how one, COULD be a useful tool for you, even if t's not your ultimate ambition...

Like I said, its first bike, not once and forever ONLY bike; EVEN f you Do-DAS and get a full licence; a 125 can be a damneably useful training tool, to get out on on your own after the crash-course, to do your REAL early rider learning, putting the pieces into place, getting the practice you had to short change on course for tests, and get the early mile experience and cement that diligece and discipline and SMOOTH into your riding, with.

As said, Ride THIS bit of road you are on now, not the one over the mountans you may never get to; and keep an open mind; DONT let predjudices and preconceptions, worse, other peoples predjudces and preconceptions worse still, ambitions and aspirations, take you where THEY would like to go, rather than explore for yourself and find the stuff you likely may ind more interesting and rearding, they would just ride straight past.

When you have the twist grip in your mtt, YOU are the one in control... dont let other people, whether that's frinds or relatives, or tali-gating twats make your decissions for you! STAY in control, and make your OWN decissions based on reason and fact and GOOD information, NOT myth, lore, legend and predjudices!

Preconceptions and predjudces.... You know, I like to look at nubile young women in bikini's, they look GREAT! Doesn't really make me want to wear one! NOT that I would see much of it when its on me.. might look pretty on the washing line, but rather looses some of its appeal when parked and not in use...

Apart from the odd glance though the ktchen window alded to earlier, when I make a coffee, I tend to spend a lot more time ridng my bke than looking at it; nd in the saddle, I dont get to see much of t apart from the speedo-and tacho, a bit of the petrol tak ad maybe the rust in the middle of the handle-bars... and I SHOULD be paying most of my attension to all the twits out on the road trying to knock me off ANYWAY!

THEY dont care how wonderful by bike looks! I am LUCKY if they gve me a second glance! Usually after they have pulled out of a T-Junction on me, and I am hard on the brakes with my thumb on the horn trying not to pile into thier boot!

It REALLY isn't something that need EVER be a sgnificant factor in your decissin making about bikes, and certainly not important here and now, on your bit of the learning curve.Park that notion; along with a lot of other's and keep an open mind to learning.

Bikes rarely blow over in the wind, and what 'looks' skiny, is again deceptive. A lot of folk have the perverse ntion that skinny tyres wont have good grip and they MUST have a bike with fat tyres, because they 'look' more substatial... its yet another common miscoception; and so often a light bike on fat tyres is actually MORE likely to 'skid' than one with a skinny tyre, which is like an ce skate, cutting through the surface slime and able to 'bite' and find grip, where, if you tryed walking out onto an ice rink in waders you would be slippng all over the plae as the welly soles dont 'bite' like an ice-skate blade.

More pre-conceptions and predjudices, that you dont have the experience to know why they may be errant, and if you follow those pre-conceptions you will likely engrain rather than dispell, and will hamper learning rather than help.

Theory/Haz-Pep... which is the bit of road you is on at the moment, and ALL you really need be too bothered about...

Is usually a pre-requisite f DAS as they cant book you in for the practical tests until you have passed it, and its oft a sticking point for many, particularly thems of us who's experience of the world isn't mostly derived from Call-Of-Duty ad Grand-Theft-Auto games!!!

Teenagers, weened on 'virtual-un-realty' after a decade of learnig by rote at school, DO ted to fare better with this test, I have to say, so no shame if you dont pass it!

When the theory was first introduced, it was quite revealing when a bunch of nstructors got round a lap-top to try the demo, and only about 2/3 could pass THAT then much less exhaustive highway code test first time... and it has not got better!

Snowie who I metioned earlier, had to do the modern Theory, for her bike tests just ahead of teh 2013 Euro 3DL changs.... as a more hands-on kid of girl (she built her own bike to do it on!) it was the bt she was less enthusiastic about tackling, and I got her a practice disk to just do ad do ad do over, to learn by rote....

At one point we actually had quite a domestic, as we aproached I thik her second attempt, and she was sat wth the lap-top, ad I told her to get off FaceBook 'Hospital' games ad do her bludy homework! And DIDN'T believe she was doing her practic disk! Honestly! I REALLY ddn't believe that the computer asking her how many compressios a minute she needed to give some-one who had just had a heart attack could possibly be part of the motor-cycle theory test! Sorry, dear, Oh-Kay! It IS!

Bludy government... NHS s failg they are still cuttig back thier fundng but HEY! Lets make every new driver learn basic first aid, before we give them thier licence so they help out before the ambulance never arrives! There's genius for you, eh!

Once upon a time, you could blag the theory questons a drivig examiner asked you as part of the practical test, in the test centre car-park; most of it was common sens, and road-related; NOW? Geez! There's a shed load of politial indoctrination in there about whether a tram is more enviromentally worthy than a ferry, as well as the first aid crap! Ugh! But hey-ho.. that's the 'test'.. they could ask you to guess the weight of a jar of jelly beans... may not be relevent to buger all, but that's the test!

And now there is a lot more in the theory part that isn't common sense, and much more, you know it or you dont obscurities of the hughway code, like whats the rules over a puffin crossng.... of whch I believe there's only one damn example in the country! But still.. you know how heavy the jelly-beans are or you dont!

Haz pep, is much the same, and most existng drivers/rders cannot pass it. The clips often dont show anythig we would percieve as a 'hazard'; its stuff we encounter all the while, and just deal with almost sub-conciousely! So f we start to thnk about it, ad go "Oh yeah! Change speed or drection!" We either start sporring stuff far to late to meat the click wdow DSA think we should spot it in, or click ages to early.. ad STILL ruddy fail...

Its a computer game for teenagers.. they can do well at it.. we just have to keep tryig until we get it, it seems!

I am NOT going to offer any tips on the braking distances; I'm pretty sure when I did my tests, they still gave them in Yards on the back of the Highway Code book! There was a formula, and hat seemed to hnder more of my mates than help any!

It's something you probably just need to learn by rote, and both thinking and stopping and cumulatve overall distance at any speed.

IF there is a big hint, on the comuter test, it is READ the question, RE-READ the question.. read the answers THEN read the question again before answering.

Of the data-base of questions, theres a good chace that you wont eve get one on braking distances; but if you do, and you get it wrong it will as like as not be because you give the right answer to the wrong question; they DO sem to love wordig the question and the answers to lead you astray; and on frst glance, the 'obviouse' aswer is actually to what you THINK they have asked, not what they have.

I cant remember the time they allow for the test Snowie's reccolecto was she had half an hour to answer, I think 35 questions? It is almost a minute a question, but most folk only take barely fifteen minutes, answering what seem 'simple' questions on frst stab, and not taking the time to re-read and look for the trick in the question.

Advice I so oft offer new bikers is DONT RUSH, rushig be fast way to hurt on a bike, and off it! This be good example.

Braking distances are small part of he test; dont obscess teh small stuff, worry about the big picture; dont get bogged down in the detail, and get kicked by the elephant you didn't see! Take your time, relax, and dont sweat the small stuff.

Haz-Pep, Is a pain in the proverbial; you probably wont pass it first time, especially if you have spent more of your life worrying about avoiding balifs letters tha getting a detensio for your socks being the wrong colour or length!

Its just one step on the journey; one you likely will have to take over; so dont sweat t; and as far as the rest goes, dont rush, keep an open mind, and remember, you haven't even got out the garden gate, there's a very long journey ahead of you, and many many different roads you can go down; so worry about this bit you are on, keep an open mind, make your OWN decisions, and DON'T RUSH... it will start to come together.

And a 125, COULD be a very useful tool along the way, IF you want to exploit it; if not, remember DAS does not make you a master in a week; and the world of biking is a very large one, in which road bikes are but a part, and big bikes just a part of that.

RELAX; Don't Rush; keep a open mind, and fer-gawds sake STOP over thiking it all; Stop Thinking get riding!

Yo HAVE been teffed.. everything else should now be easy

There shuldn't be ol in the magneto housing; there should only be chain 'throw' behind the front sprocket cover.
If you have il i the mag-housng, that points to a faled crank seal.
If you have engine oil in the sprocket cover, you likey have an out-put shaft seal.
If oil is drippng through the casing onto the shift lever, then you probably have a failed selector shaft seal.

Leaks from the out-put shaft seal, usually indicate a routinly over tightened drive chain, and likely buggered bearings, rather than simply just age hardened seal (likely on what a 35 year old bike?)

A small 'weap' from output shaft seal, can be tolerated... call it an auto-oiler for teh drve chain! JUST make sure you check the egine oil level every time you ride!

A weal into the mag-chamber is probably not so easy to ignore, and does hint that the motor probably needs a complete tear down.

All three seals are in the LH crank case, so top end has to come off to slit the crank-cases, and the bottom end come apart to get the case free to swap seals.... and with that amount of work, the expense of buying three £5 seals is peanuts compared to a complete gasket set, and anyhing else you likely find that begs attension in the doing, like crank bearings, out-put shaft bearings, rebores and slappy cam-chains.

Your call how to progress; but buying the Haynes manual would probably be a good start.

The two O-rigs you have changed seal the magneto cover to the crabk case and the inspectio cover to the mag cover, to stop rain & road water from getting i and shorting electrics,

The Mag rotor is on the end of the crank-shaft, that s sittig in he crank-case, that aught bee full of oil.. there HAS to be a dynamic seal, outboard of the main bearing supporting the crank in the crank case t stop the engine oil leaking t of the crank case.

Replacing that, I'm sorry, but does beg stripping the engine to the bare cases so you can fit the new crank seal to them and then put the crank through it.

Ignoring it? Well, now you have replaced the casing O-rings, any engine oil wont seep away... at some point it will fill to the same level as the oil in the crank case, I don't expect that will enhance performance any, as the magneto rotor acts like very big hydraulic damper stirring it as it goes around... hot oil might cook the electrics there, if enough hot oil gets in there, but oil in the magneto rather than in the engine is't going to do much for engine lubrication as it should....

Your engine, your call! BUT oil shouldn't be leaking into there....

An as aluded, it MAY just be an almost 40 year old seal sayng 'enough', but likely thats ot the only 'problem' in the engine, to be tackled on tear-down.

Fact that you are runig a near 40 year old bike; suggests that ts either a scrap-heap survivor that has been tickled back into life, and new use will put strain on all bits that weren't worn out whilst bike was still young, or rotted in twixt time, and his is just the frst hint of all the possible "Resuscitation Failures" possible ad likely to come before the bikes de-niggled and ruining reasonably reliably; OR its bee restored, and this is symptom of something like an engine tear-down that's never been done, or done properly, and you are again, looking at possible resus-fails, or de-niggling bad work on top of real over-haul processes.

Welcome to the wonderful world of classic bikes.

If you want a relatively reliable everyday rider you don't have to lift too many spanners at, go buy a Yamaha YBR or something; If you want all the joys of Classics and the fun of spannering them, grab the book, read the instructions and dive into the fun of wrenches and pliers, gaskets, worn bores, oval bushes and rusty bearings.. That's what its all about.
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struan80
World Chat Champion



Joined: 04 Nov 2014
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PostPosted: 01:42 - 22 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

My goodness gracious me, that's all I can say. Great piece of writing and a very knowledgeable view point.

I admit I didn't read it all tonight as I can barely see the screen through these beer goggles

Tef will be distraught.

Cheers
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adengtg
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PostPosted: 02:05 - 22 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am actually going to read the entire thing.
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andym
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Joined: 16 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: 06:17 - 22 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ste for mod Tef award
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ThatDippyTwat
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Joined: 07 Aug 2016
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PostPosted: 06:35 - 22 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teffers, you need to hand it to Ste, he just out-Teffed you, no lube, for shits and giggles. He also has better spelling, not reading that is II CBA, not that it hurt to read.

If Autistic Andy here reads all that, It'll probably keep him occupied long enough to pass his test.

For what it's worth - I still have a 125 for the daily work commute of 4 miles each way, and the VFR for longer rides out.
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notabikeranym...
Formerly known as
meef



Joined: 02 Apr 2014
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PostPosted: 10:35 - 22 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/10/tim-and-eric-mind-blown.gif
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andyscooter
World Chat Champion



Joined: 30 May 2009
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PostPosted: 12:04 - 22 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

if ste is doing that


tef for mod Shocked
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if its spelt wrong its my fat fingers and daft auto correct on my tablet
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Ste
Not Work Safe



Joined: 01 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: 12:21 - 22 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ste for admin could make tef for mod.

Twisted Evil
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Loui5D
Brolly Dolly



Joined: 22 Sep 2014
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PostPosted: 13:02 - 22 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

How long have you had those saved?
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Ste
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PostPosted: 13:23 - 22 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

80,000 words of genuine teff.
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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 14:00 - 22 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ste for Admin and Site owner, fuck Korn!
Then if deemed the stand out most suitable candidate, Tef for Mod I don't think anyone else on BCF has a hope of challenging him for that position.

OP for keep on riding your 125, as you don't know what kind of bike you want or the budget you'll have or when you'll have a licence to ride one.
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pinkyfloyd
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PostPosted: 17:17 - 22 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.andykillworth.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/ffs.gif
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illuminateTHEmind wrote: I am just more evolved than most of you guys... this allows me to pick of things quickly which would have normally taken the common man years to master
Hockeystorm65:.well there are childish arguments...there are very childish arguments.....there are really stupid childish arguments and now there are......Pinkfloyd arguments!
Teflon-Mike:I think I agree with just about all Pinky has said.
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