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LED indicator bodge - unbodge?

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stirlinggaz
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PostPosted: 16:56 - 13 Aug 2018    Post subject: LED indicator bodge - unbodge? Reply with quote

hi all,
recently aquired purchase has had a few dodgy "repairs" done to it over the years, which I hope to remedy.
firstly, tell-tale for indicators wasn't working & seller reckoned it just needed a bulb.
I had my suspicions however, when I saw the tacky fake c/f led indicators fitted (by a "garage" btw, before this seller aquired the bike)
my suspicions were confirmed when I stripped the plastics off & removed the clocks.
the indicator tell-tale bulb had been removed.
when I fitted a new bulb, regardless of which way I indicate all 4 indicators flash (tell-tale does flash though Very Happy )

I've seen this bodge before but can't remember how to fix it.
do I have to change the indicator relay? (to a led specific type)
or do I have to replace all 4 indicators AND the relay? (to a standard type)
I've heard of fitting ballast or resistors or something similar but that's something I've never attempted & would rather avoid, if possible.
I'm pretty sure it's an MOT failure iirc.

any advice?

cheers,
GAZ
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WD Forte
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PostPosted: 17:12 - 13 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gaz

What feckin bike?

you really ought to know that by now old boy

Anyway
That refitted bulb is probably bridging both side of the indicators
causing both sides to flash
Don't buy any ballast resistors they're shite and negate
the power saving effect of leds, you don't need them anyway.

If we knew the bike, the chances are we can look at the wiring diagram and hopefully offer suggestions to fix it.
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ThatDippyTwat
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PostPosted: 17:56 - 13 Aug 2018    Post subject: Re: LED indicator bodge - unbodge? Reply with quote

stirlinggaz wrote:
I'm pretty sure it's an MOT failure iirc.


Tape over the tell-tale. MOT sorted.
Whack an LED relay in there. If it's 2 pin, I'll chuck you one in the post, I have a few.

Depending on other bodges, you *may* be able to sort it with a diode or two.
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 19:40 - 13 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anomolies with LED Lamps, & Indicators

Try that. If its a simple bridge tell-tale, it takes feed from the 'on' side indy and earths through the 'off'. Fit low resistance LED's then the resistance on the 'off' side is so low current coming through the tell-tale will still be able to light them, and you got hazards not indies.

As to MOT.... it only a fail if equipment fitted no work.

A dash tell-tale for the indy is only required if you cant 'see' the indies from the normal riding position, when 'on'. Eg; if you dont have a fairing, and/or dont have daft diddy indies. In that case you dont need a tell-tale.. but of there... must work! So remove again, and tape over both tell-tale lens and the 'ind' marking.

If you cant see from riding position; needs fixing; see link.

You need seperate isolated feeds for the tell-tale, which may mean using two LED's in the one holder hole, or using a couple of diodes to make a gate to only take +volts off the 'on' side and give bulb an independent earth, so it lights up from either indy. Your call how you do it.

You probably don't need a new flasher unit; though some do have a third 'tell-take' pin you could use; and chrystal timed electronic flashers are quite useful, give regulation flash interval regardless of bulb wattage, and dont have the current draw of an electro-mech flasher, or need balast resistors so you do actually get the current savings promiced by LED's plus a bit.

Personally I REALLY don't like balast resistors; they defeat the point of fitting LED's to save current, and give so much extra opportunity for butchered electrics and dodgy joints by DIY numpties, and when electronic flashers can be bought off the bay for just a couple of quid, probably less than a more obscure tungsten bulb at my local motor-factors? Seems daft not to to my mind. But still.
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stirlinggaz
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PostPosted: 21:42 - 13 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi,
apologies, hadn't even thought of mentioning what bike :oops tbh I didn't think it would matter...
anyway its a 2007 Yamaha TDR 125 .

2 pin relay, standard type still fitted.
bulbs in clock cluster are 3.4w little torch like bulbs, pin either side, not the usual 301/501 types I usually come across.
ill try read what type they are in daylight. (I just swapped 1 out from neutral light to test as i didnt have a spare bulb)
EDIT : I believe they are BA9's

anyway, I presume fitting a led type relay will sort it?
I'll now read tefs reply .........

cheers,
GAZ


Last edited by stirlinggaz on 00:08 - 14 Aug 2018; edited 1 time in total
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stirlinggaz
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PostPosted: 21:46 - 13 Aug 2018    Post subject: Re: LED indicator bodge - unbodge? Reply with quote

ThatDippyTwat wrote:


Tape over the tell-tale. MOT sorted.
Whack an LED relay in there. If it's 2 pin, I'll chuck you one in the post, I have a few.

Depending on other bodges, you *may* be able to sort it with a diode or two.

Hi,
that's mightily decent of you!
you want me to cover postage?

cheers,
GAZ
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WD Forte
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PostPosted: 22:28 - 13 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

taint no bodge its a 'feature' as Mike pointed out


The diagram I have a for a TZR125 which is similar 'they say'
shows that dash bulb is a deliberate bridge between the L&R indicators so bound to light up both sides when leds are used

I'd stick two leds in the blub hole with cathodes commoned and grounded ( Black wire)
and connect the Green (right) and Brown ( left) wire to the two anodes.
tape, heat shrink, secure and off you go
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Last edited by WD Forte on 01:05 - 14 Aug 2018; edited 1 time in total
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stirlinggaz
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PostPosted: 00:06 - 14 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

WD Forte wrote:
taint no bodge its a 'feature' as Mike pointed out


The diagram I have a for a TZR125 which is similar 'they say'
shows that dash bulb is a deliberate bridge between the L&R indicators so bound to light up both sides when leds are used

I'd stick two leds in the blub hole with cathodes commoned and grounded ( Black wire)
and connect the Green (right) and Brown ( left) wire to the two cathodes.
tape, heat shrink, secure and off you go


Hi,
wouldn't it just be quicker & easier (& probably cheaper too) just to swap out the indicator relay for the led type recommended for these indicators?

cheers,
GAZ
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WD Forte
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PostPosted: 01:04 - 14 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whatever relay you use, if you keep that bulb in
both sides will flash at once.
If you take it out, you'll have no indicator warning light ( MOT fail)

If you go back to using 21W bulb types instead of led flashers,
no more both sides flashing at once and the idiot light will work
as it once did.

If your struggling, tell me what diameter the bulb hole is
and PM me your address and I'll knock up an LED idiot light
with leads for you
( with instructions Smile
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ThatDippyTwat
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PostPosted: 06:06 - 14 Aug 2018    Post subject: Re: LED indicator bodge - unbodge? Reply with quote

stirlinggaz wrote:
ThatDippyTwat wrote:


Tape over the tell-tale. MOT sorted.
Whack an LED relay in there. If it's 2 pin, I'll chuck you one in the post, I have a few.

Depending on other bodges, you *may* be able to sort it with a diode or two.

Hi,
that's mightily decent of you!
you want me to cover postage?

cheers,
GAZ


Nah, it's fine. Give me your address, I'll bosh one in the post.

You only need warning lights for an MOT if you can't see the front ones from a normal riding position.
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stirlinggaz
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PostPosted: 08:35 - 14 Aug 2018    Post subject: Re: LED indicator bodge - unbodge? Reply with quote

ThatDippyTwat wrote:


Nah, it's fine. Give me your address, I'll bosh one in the post.

You only need warning lights for an MOT if you can't see the front ones from a normal riding position.


hi,
cool. ill pm you my address. thanks again!
see, thats how dumb i was being, i thought you had to be able to see ALL 4 indicators from a normal riding position Embarassed

cheers,
GAZ
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stirlinggaz
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PostPosted: 08:58 - 14 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

WD Forte wrote:
Whatever relay you use, if you keep that bulb in
both sides will flash at once.
If you take it out, you'll have no indicator warning light ( MOT fail)

If you go back to using 21W bulb types instead of led flashers,
no more both sides flashing at once and the idiot light will work
as it once did.

If your struggling, tell me what diameter the bulb hole is
and PM me your address and I'll knock up an LED idiot light
with leads for you
( with instructions Smile


Hi,
ahh, got you now.
i had looked at a few relays on ebay & sure enough a few did say in the description that it wouldnt stop all 4 indicators from flashing all at once but a couple did hint at sorting out all sorts of other problems without being too specific Brick Wall
tbh, i did consider (& & still am) just replacing the led indicators with bog standard, black plastic ones with "normal" 21w bulbs, as im not a fan of the fake c/f effect on these led indys, but i quite like the shape of them so could just whack a coat of black paint over the back of them Thinking
electrickery confuses me.... so if you could help me out with leads & instructions, i'd be extremely grateful.
tell-tale bulb is/should be a BA9S iirc, i can check for sure later & measure the bulb socket, if i can find my vernier.

actually, im pretty sure these are the tell-tale bulbs & it looks like the dimensions are included in the listing, any good?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Yamaha-TDR-125-1996-Dashboard-Light-Replacement-Bulb/130851394539?hash=item1e7759d3eb:g:rM4AAOSwi7RZLh1y

cheers,
GAZ
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 10:09 - 14 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

An LED bulb designed for a POSITIVE earth vehicle ought to already have the necessary internal electronics to work in both directions.
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stirlinggaz
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PostPosted: 18:46 - 15 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

WD Forte wrote:


If your struggling, tell me what diameter the bulb hole is
and PM me your address and I'll knock up an LED idiot light
with leads for you
( with instructions Smile


pm'd you mate Wink
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stirlinggaz
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PostPosted: 10:42 - 06 Sep 2018    Post subject: UPDATE : all sorted Reply with quote

Hi all,
i know its been ages since my original post, so my apologies but life got in the way.
anyway i thought id update this, as maybe others, like me, like to hear of problems actually solved & posts updated to reflect this, with details of an actual solution.

to recap, bought bike with tacky fake c/f effect led indicators already fitted & they all worked fine, but the tell-tale had been removed from the instrument cluster which is a common bodge to get the leds to work without doing anything technical like cutting/splicing wires, soldering etc.
ThatDippyTwat graciously offered me a led specific type indicator relay, which being free, i was on it like a tramp on chips.
it didnt actually solve my problem, but it would come in handy, more later.

WD Forte (pm'd you btw Wink ) very helpfully described what i had to do to get the idiot light working (which is necessary to pass MOT btw).

but me not being very good with electrical theory he actually made me the all important little gizmo required!
AND posted it off to me with an idiots guide to fitting, with pictures & everything, top bloke!
while i was waiting on it coming in the post, the led relay arrived so i fitted it it to see if it made any difference.
it did, but not in a good way, as i now had all 4 indicators flashing rapidly, much like a disco strobe light Cool BUT again, it would come in handy, yet again, more later.

so, WD Forte's little led & wire (with something complicated involving resistors, relays & other electrickery voodoo stuff which makes it all work, hidden under the heat-shrink/tape) had arrived & it was now time to fit it Confused

BUT when he had originally asked me the size of the idiot light bulb socket, i Embarassed stupidly measured the actual rubber bulb holder (my only excuse is tescos had a deal on bulmers cider that weekend) not the hole where the bulb & holder get shoved into, so when the led was offered up to the back of the clocks, it was of course, too small.
but, i got creative & adapted 1 of the little rubber bulb holders (i had a spare 1 that had never been used, already fitted to a spare socket/hole in the cluster, the infamous reed switch restriction thingy, which had never been utilised on my bike, being the full power version Dance! )
2mins with the dremel & i had hollowed out enough rubber for the led to fit snugly, so it now fits in the back of the clocks like the original idiot light.
all that remained was to cut the original idiot light bulb holder off (& chuck it in the box of random wire & light bulb stuff, because i just KNOW it will come in handy.....some day)
then join the 2 wires from where i cut off the bulb holder to the the 2 blue wires on the new led gadget.
there is a 3rd wire on the gadget, which i earthed using the ring terminal connector on the temp gauge, simply because it was the easiest & neatest option.
all wires joined up, tested & working as they should, with blinking idiot light, wiring re-wrapped up & clockset refitted.
99% done.

this is were ThatDippyTwat's led relay comes back into play.
using the original relay, everything works great. job done,......BUT i just HAD to swap over relays, the led one was orange!

1 even more interesting fact about the replacement led relay is that it has a tiny little hole in it, with an adjuster screw that can be turned in either direction with 1 of those tiny wee screwdrivers you have lying around that you only occasionally use for poking holes in things.

what does this do? it adjusts the flash rate of the indicators!
result? led indicators are now flashing at a MOT compliant rate.

My apologies for tef length wall of text, but i find typing rather soothing when i awake with the mother of all hangovers & dont want to face the 500+ emails waiting for me.

sorry no pics, i havnt evolved enough yet....

cheers,
GAZ
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