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Help with Council PCN - Parked on the Pavement

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HunteR877
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PostPosted: 13:12 - 21 Aug 2018    Post subject: Help with Council PCN - Parked on the Pavement Reply with quote
Hi I was wondering if anyone can help me or offer any advice.

I parked my motorcycle on a pavement (not causing any obstruction) but the closest road was a single yellow line with restrictions during the time the bike was parked there.

It is my understanding that, as long as the bike isn't causing an obstruction, I can park there. It was such a large path that it wasn't even remotely causing any obstructions.

I am currently appealing with the council, they disagree. I will ultimately go down the common law route should my appeals fail, but should it even have to come to that? was the PCN Officer in the wrong for applying PCN?

The law seems to be a bit fuzzy when it relates to motorcycles. Rules seem to change from city to city.

Any help would be appreciated.
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DrSnoosnoo
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PostPosted: 13:19 - 21 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Which council?

But, the path is still covered by the single yellow line, you are at fault.
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HunteR877
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PostPosted: 13:22 - 21 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
DrSnoosnoo wrote:
Which council?

But, the path is still covered by the single yellow line, you are at fault.


Newcastle council.

Those in the area (included a police officer) agreed that the bike still should not have been given a PCN. This is because the bike does not cause the same restrictions as say a car would, had it been parked on the path.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 13:36 - 21 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Common law?

You say you're appealing it and the council disagree, what have you told them so far?
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johnsmith222
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PostPosted: 13:39 - 21 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Is there an exemption for "broken down" vehicles? Wink
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DrSnoosnoo
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PostPosted: 13:42 - 21 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
HunteRetnuH877 wrote:
Newcastle council.

Those in the area (included a police officer) agreed that the bike still should not have been given a PCN. This is because the bike does not cause the same restrictions as say a car would, had it been parked on the path.


A single yellow doesn't mean, no parking unless you don't cause much of a restriction.

And as we all know, police occifers aren't always well versed in the laws they are to uphold.
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HunteR877
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PostPosted: 13:43 - 21 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ste wrote:
Common law?

You say you're appealing it and the council disagree, what have you told them so far?


Yeah Common Law, 'council don't own the land' etc etc. There are legal ways to get out of paying fines, which I am more than willing to resort to on this occasion. I was very considerate (as I always am) as to where I park the bike, so that it doesn't get in the way of anyone, so I am prepared to do anything to not pay the fine based on principle.

They just keep stating that they have rejected my appeal and they quote the highway code single yellow line restrictions, but I do not think this applies to motorcycles as long as the motorcycle is not causing an obstruction as I stated. I also stated that motorcycles in many ways should be treat as cyclist, in that they are designed to combat congestion and save space for other cars and larger vehicles, so me being parked up on a large path, out the way, was not causing any issue.
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HunteR877
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PostPosted: 13:43 - 21 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
bluezedd wrote:
Is there an exemption for "broken down" vehicles? Wink


Is there? Can you tell me more about that.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 13:48 - 21 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
HunteRetnuH877 wrote:
Ste wrote:
Common law?

You say you're appealing it and the council disagree, what have you told them so far?


Yeah Common Law, 'council don't own the land' etc etc. There are legal ways to get out of paying fines, which I am more than willing to resort to on this occasion. I was very considerate (as I always am) as to where I park the bike, so that it doesn't get in the way of anyone, so I am prepared to do anything to not pay the fine based on principle.

They just keep stating that they have rejected my appeal and they quote the highway code single yellow line restrictions, but I do not think this applies to motorcycles as long as the motorcycle is not causing an obstruction as I stated. I also stated that motorcycles in many ways should be treat as cyclist, in that they are designed to combat congestion and save space for other cars and larger vehicles, so me being parked up on a large path, out the way, was not causing any issue.

So what have you told them so far?

What are these legal ways of getting out of paying a fine? Your opinion about how motorcycles should be treated as cyclists is irrelevant.

Whether or not you can go down the route of saying your bike had broken down will depend on what you've already told the council. So what have you told them so far?
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rpsmith79
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PostPosted: 13:51 - 21 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
Rule 238
You MUST NOT wait or park on yellow lines during the times of operation shown on nearby time plates (or zone entry signs if in a Controlled Parking Zone) – see ‘Traffic signs’ and ‘Road markings’. Double yellow lines indicate a prohibition of waiting at any time even if there are no upright signs. You MUST NOT wait or park, or stop to set down and pick up passengers, on school entrance markings (see ‘Road markings’) when upright signs indicate a prohibition of stopping.


As mentioned earlier, there is no mention in the Highway code as to causing an obstruction (or not)

So by the letter of the Highway Code, you must have been parked there outside of the specified time to have been given a ticket

I'm not saying i would be happy if i got a ticket in those circumstances, but thems are the rules
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Monkeywrenche...
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PostPosted: 14:05 - 21 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
https://forums.pepipoo.com/

asked there yet? they have forums about these issues
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peejayess
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PostPosted: 14:09 - 21 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
The parking rules apply to motorbikes just as much as to cars, but I would have thought the relevant point is that you were not parked on the road but on the pavement. This should put you outside the remit of the parking patrols. Someone (I would have thought the police) can still do you for obstructing the pavement, but that’s got nothing to do with how many lines are on the adjacent road. None of this has anything to do with “common law”, which has no force whatsoever, it does not exist. All laws as administered by the courts are statute laws, and the courts can interpret them according to what is considered justice in any particular case.

As regards the council apparently backing the PCN action, of course they’ll do that, and will stonewall you in the expectation you will get fed up and pay up. Ring the office and (politely) badger whoever answers the phone until they void the fine to shut you up.
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peejayess
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PostPosted: 14:13 - 21 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
The parking rules apply to motorbikes just as much as to cars, but I would have thought the relevant point is that you were not parked on the road but on the pavement. This should put you outside the remit of the parking patrols. Someone (I would have thought the police) can still do you for obstructing the pavement, but that’s got nothing to do with how many lines are on the adjacent road. None of this has anything to do with “common law”, which has no force whatsoever, it does not exist. All laws as administered by the courts are statute laws, and the courts can interpret them according to what is considered justice in any particular case.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 14:19 - 21 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Parking on the pavement does not "put you outside the remit of the parking patrols".
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HunteR877
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PostPosted: 14:20 - 21 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
peejayess wrote:
The parking rules apply to motorbikes just as much as to cars, but I would have thought the relevant point is that you were not parked on the road but on the pavement. This should put you outside the remit of the parking patrols. Someone (I would have thought the police) can still do you for obstructing the pavement, but that’s got nothing to do with how many lines are on the adjacent road. None of this has anything to do with “common law”, which has no force whatsoever, it does not exist. All laws as administered by the courts are statute laws, and the courts can interpret them according to what is considered justice in any particular case.

As regards the council apparently backing the PCN action, of course they’ll do that, and will stonewall you in the expectation you will get fed up and pay up. Ring the office and (politely) badger whoever answers the phone until they void the fine to shut you up.


Thanks for the advice, appreciate it.

Do you think if it ultimately goes to tribunal, they will throw the case out, due to what you stated about it being parked on the path being outside of the remit of parking patrols?

Regardless, I will give them a ring.
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Monkeywrenche...
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PostPosted: 14:22 - 21 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
peejayess wrote:
The parking rules apply to motorbikes just as much as to cars, but I would have thought the relevant point is that you were not parked on the road but on the pavement. This should put you outside the remit of the parking patrols.


Nope

The Highway Code wrote:
waiting restrictions indicated by yellow lines apply to the carriageway, pavement and verge. You may stop to load or unload (unless there are also loading restrictions as described below) or while passengers board or alight. Double yellow lines mean no waiting at any time, unless there are signs that specifically indicate seasonal restrictions. The times at which the restrictions apply for other road markings are shown on nearby plates or on entry signs to controlled parking zones. If no days are shown on the signs, the restrictions are in force every day including Sundays and Bank Holidays. White bay markings and upright signs (see below) indicate where parking is allowed.

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Pete.
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PostPosted: 14:26 - 21 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
HunteRetnuH877 wrote:
peejayess wrote:
The parking rules apply to motorbikes just as much as to cars, but I would have thought the relevant point is that you were not parked on the road but on the pavement. This should put you outside the remit of the parking patrols. Someone (I would have thought the police) can still do you for obstructing the pavement, but that’s got nothing to do with how many lines are on the adjacent road. None of this has anything to do with “common law”, which has no force whatsoever, it does not exist. All laws as administered by the courts are statute laws, and the courts can interpret them according to what is considered justice in any particular case.

As regards the council apparently backing the PCN action, of course they’ll do that, and will stonewall you in the expectation you will get fed up and pay up. Ring the office and (politely) badger whoever answers the phone until they void the fine to shut you up.


Thanks for the advice, appreciate it.

Do you think if it ultimately goes to tribunal, they will throw the case out, due to what you stated about it being parked on the path being outside of the remit of parking patrols?

Regardless, I will give them a ring.


You're only listening to advice you want to hear. Yellow lines also apply to the public pavement - that's the end of it.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 14:26 - 21 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
what have you already told the council?
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 14:36 - 21 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ste wrote:
what have you already told the council?


NOBCAT MADE ME DO IT
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HunteR877
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PostPosted: 14:38 - 21 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ste wrote:
what have you already told the council?


Nothing other than what I stated: The bike was not causing an obstruction due to the width of the path, which was not parked kerb-side. I asked them to show me the law/rule that states motorcycles cannot park on the path.

I think, ultimately, my point is that there are certain things within the highway code that motorcycles can do, that cars cannot. I personal don't think this rule applies to motorcycles, and why would it? - as I stated, the motorcycle is not causing an obstruction, so in the grand scheme of things, how would a motorcycle not causing an obstructions, cause any loss of hindrance to the council, or any pedestrians walking on the path? you could however not say the same thing if a car or a van was parked on the path. This is ultimately my point, and I do not thing it is a black and white case of me being in the wrong and just paying the fine.
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Monkeywrenche...
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PostPosted: 14:42 - 21 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
HunteRetnuH877 wrote:


I think, ultimately, my point is that there are certain things within the highway code that motorcycles can do, that cars cannot. I personal don't think this rule applies to motorcycles, and why would it?


Well that's made you case som uch simpler, just go here....

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code

Find the part that says motorcycles can park on the pavement and go full Perry Mason on them with it. Thumbs Up
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HunteR877
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PostPosted: 14:44 - 21 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Monkeywrencher wrote:
HunteRetnuH877 wrote:


I think, ultimately, my point is that there are certain things within the highway code that motorcycles can do, that cars cannot. I personal don't think this rule applies to motorcycles, and why would it?


Well that's made you case som uch simpler, just go here....

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code

Find the part that says motorcycles can park on the pavement and go full Perry Mason on them with it. Thumbs Up


They also need to find the part that specifically says motorcycles can't park on pavements...
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Monkeywrenche...
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PostPosted: 14:50 - 21 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
HunteRetnuH877 wrote:

They also need to find the part that specifically says motorcycles can't park on pavements...


No they don't, because it's irrelevant, You parked next to a yellow line during (I assume) it's hours of restriction, which we already showed applies to the pavement and verge its painted next to, you need to show that your motorcycle has exemption from this rule (it doersn't). so go to pepipoo and ask there, they will advise if the council made any mistakes with signage or paperwork that might result in you getting away with it (not the same as doing nothing wrong)
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DrSnoosnoo
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PostPosted: 14:50 - 21 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
OP wrote:
There are legal ways to get out of paying fines, which I am more than willing to resort to on this occasion


Go on then. Prove us all wrong. It'll only be to our benefit.

OP wrote:
They also need to find the part that specifically says motorcycles can't park on pavements...


You're going about this the wrong way. You need to find the specific exemption. I suspect strongly that the highway code applies to all traffic unless specifically exempted.
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HunteR877
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PostPosted: 14:53 - 21 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Monkeywrencher wrote:
HunteRetnuH877 wrote:

They also need to find the part that specifically says motorcycles can't park on pavements...


No they don't, because it's irrelevant, You parked next to a yellow line during (I assume) it's hours of restriction, which we already showed applies to the pavement and verge its painted next to, you need to show that your motorcycle has exemption from this rule (it doersn't). so go to pepipoo and ask there, they will advise if the council made any mistakes with signage or paperwork that might result in you getting away with it (not the same as doing nothing wrong)


You think if I suck them off they will cancel the PCN for me?
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