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liability in refusing to give first aid assistance.

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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 11:03 - 18 Sep 2018    Post subject: liability in refusing to give first aid assistance. Reply with quote

If a manager was approached by an employee seeking assistance to give first aid to someone just outside the companies place of business and refused to do so when that manger has the appropriate training and access to particular specialised medical equipment is there hell to pay?

Added to this if the manager then, when others present advised him he should go and help attempted to turn the blame on the worker who sought assistance what further fan/faeces issues could there be?

If other management including the manager in questions knew about the incident and did nothing then would anyone else raising the issue then find themselves in a whistle-blowing situation?

Ive looked up some HR and H+S stuff on the web and theres a few things about designated first aiders refusing to assist but nothing about someone whos not necessarily designated as being a first aider but who still has responsibility.
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LustyLew
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PostPosted: 11:22 - 18 Sep 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I assume the manager holds a First Aid at Work certificate?

As the title suggests, its to render emergency aid in the workplace. If someone happens to get injured off premises, there's no obligation to offer assistance.

The FAW training is a very limited skill set. All scenarios usually end with send to hospital/call an ambulance.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 11:25 - 18 Sep 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why did they refuse to give first aid?
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Freddyfruitba...
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PostPosted: 11:39 - 18 Sep 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is the patient aware what happened?

Do you know if the outcome of the incident was likely worse than if first aid had been given?

Clearly this guy is a shit of the highest order, but TBH I suspect there's no legal comeback on him from anywhere

Possibly relevant?
Man jailed for manslaughter by negligence for failing to do anything to help a drowning girl:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-38757650
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iooi
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PostPosted: 11:49 - 18 Sep 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Liability for not = NIL

Liability for giving and fucking up = MASSIVE.

Bet company would wash their hands in the latter case.

In any case. A lot of the training is call 999 and do as little as possible.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 11:54 - 18 Sep 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Freddyfruitbat wrote:
Is the patient aware what happened?

Do you know if the outcome of the incident was likely worse than if first aid had been given?

Clearly this guy is a shit of the highest order, but TBH I suspect there's no legal comeback on him from anywhere

Possibly relevant?
Man jailed for manslaughter by negligence for failing to do anything to help a drowning girl:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-38757650


No, that's totally not relevant.

Personally, even though I have been trained as a ship board first aider whether I could help would depend on certain things -

An accident where you can usually see the injury is one thing. A collapse is another, you aren't trained to make diagnoses.

Put in recovery position and call emergency services is the safest thing to do in most cases.

Edit to say - beaten to it bi iooi. Thumbs Up
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 12:51 - 18 Sep 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Freddyfruitbat wrote:
Is the patient aware what happened?

Do you know if the outcome of the incident was likely worse than if first aid had been given?

Clearly this guy is a shit of the highest order, but TBH I suspect there's no legal comeback on him from anywhere

Possibly relevant?
Man jailed for manslaughter by negligence for failing to do anything to help a drowning girl:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-38757650


Possibly deceased. Im afraid to make enquiries. The matter was a possible heroin overdose and the manager had access to Naloxone (opiate blocker used to stop opiate overdose) and had been specifically trained in its administration. There is no negative legal consequences for injecting Naloxone as a first aid measure even if yoyr not sure the collapse is due to an opiate OD.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 13:01 - 18 Sep 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ribenapigeon wrote:
Freddyfruitbat wrote:
Is the patient aware what happened?

Do you know if the outcome of the incident was likely worse than if first aid had been given?

Clearly this guy is a shit of the highest order, but TBH I suspect there's no legal comeback on him from anywhere

Possibly relevant?
Man jailed for manslaughter by negligence for failing to do anything to help a drowning girl:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-38757650


Possibly deceased. Im afraid to make enquiries. The matter was a possible heroin overdose and the manager had access to Naloxone (opiate blocker used to stop opiate overdose) and had been specifically trained in its administration. There is no negative legal consequences for injecting Naloxone as a first aid measure even if yoyr not sure the collapse is due to an opiate OD


You reckon, no negative consequences into sticking a needle into someone, yea right Rolling Eyes
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LustyLew
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PostPosted: 13:28 - 18 Sep 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ribenapigeon wrote:


Possibly deceased. Im afraid to make enquiries. The matter was a possible heroin overdose and the manager had access to Naloxone (opiate blocker used to stop opiate overdose) and had been specifically trained in its administration. There is no negative legal consequences for injecting Naloxone as a first aid measure even if yoyr not sure the collapse is due to an opiate OD.


Is your manager a doctor? If not, they will be working under a 'Dcotors Standing Order' (or other such term). It will have very strict criteria when they can/cannot administer.

I have the same when administering Oxygen or Entonox to patients when doing First Aid.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 13:41 - 18 Sep 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ribenapigeon wrote:
There is no negative legal consequences for injecting Naloxone as a first aid measure even if yoyr not sure the collapse is due to an opiate OD.

"Prenoxad Injection should only be used in an emergency situation where it is known or suspected that an overdose has occurred and opioid drugs may be involved."
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AshWebster
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PostPosted: 14:02 - 18 Sep 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

heroin overdose. nuff said

would you risk getting an infection by sticking a needle into them?

one less on the streets.
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Tracey Suntan-King
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PostPosted: 14:05 - 18 Sep 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

He's in the clear. He has no professional or legal responsibility for matters outside the workplace.

However, the employer may have been liable in the event of an adverse outcome if he had acted.

Don't see the problem unless youre plotting some sort of complaint for trauma caused by a dying passerby Very Happy
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 14:23 - 18 Sep 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tracey Suntan-King wrote:
He's in the clear. He has no professional or legal responsibility for matters outside the workplace.

However, the employer may have been liable in the event of an adverse outcome if he had acted.

Don't see the problem unless youre plotting some sort of complaint for trauma caused by a dying passerby Very Happy


The manager was informed the person may have been a current or recent client of the service.
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TbirdX
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PostPosted: 14:25 - 18 Sep 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.xperthr.co.uk/editors-choice/first-aider-who-refused-to-help-casualty-was-fairly-dismissed/106504/

This case springs to mind but the only real way to know would be if he ended up in court.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 14:27 - 18 Sep 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

TbirdX wrote:
https://www.xperthr.co.uk/editors-choice/first-aider-who-refused-to-help-casualty-was-fairly-dismissed/106504/

This case springs to mind but the only real way to know would be if he ended up in court.


But that is at his place of work where he is a nominated first aider. Not some random person in the street.
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 14:43 - 18 Sep 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:


But that is at his place of work where he is a nominated first aider. Not some random person in the street.


I saw that case and it has simerlarities but tge workplace im talking about is a social service and a good number of the clients are people with substance use issues. Also as I mentioned in my previous post the worker who went to the manager for assistance informed them that the collapsed person might actually be a client.


The whole business gnaws at my brain.
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Freddyfruitba...
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PostPosted: 14:50 - 18 Sep 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ribenapigeon wrote:
The matter was a possible heroin overdose and the manager had access to Naloxone (opiate blocker used to stop opiate overdose) and had been specifically trained in its administration

You don't normally get trained to administer naloxone as a first aider, so presumably this must be a work environment where there's a good chance of coming across OD'ed junkies - I mean, it's not going to be Sainsburys, is it? Without knowing the specifics, that suggests to me that the errant manager might have more responsibility than he otherwise might do.

EDIT: just seen your last post. So yes, I do think that the errant manager might have more responsibility than he otherwise might do.
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Last edited by Freddyfruitbat on 14:51 - 18 Sep 2018; edited 1 time in total
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 14:50 - 18 Sep 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ribenapigeon wrote:
Polarbear wrote:


But that is at his place of work where he is a nominated first aider. Not some random person in the street.


I saw that case and it has simerlarities but tge workplace im talking about is a social service and a good number of the clients are people with substance use issues. Also as I mentioned in my previous post the worker who went to the manager for assistance informed them that the collapsed person might actually be a client.


The whole business gnaws at my brain.


So what. Even if we ignore the 'might' he still isn't on the premises.

Anyway, blame the compo culture not the first aider for thinking of himself first.
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LustyLew
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PostPosted: 15:25 - 18 Sep 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't forget the Danger in DRABC. If the manager is out of the workplace, they would be putting themselves in potentially more danger. Junkies who gets pumped with Naloxone (or whatever brand you want to use) wont be best pleased.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 15:25 - 18 Sep 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:


So what. Even if we ignore the 'might' he still isn't on the premises.

Anyway, blame the compo culture not the first aider for thinking of himself first.


I don't think compo culture has anything to do with it. I carry Naloxone with me as a matter of routine and im pretty sure if I refused to administer first aid while on work time whether to a colleague, client or a joe public then I would be for the boot.
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 15:29 - 18 Sep 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

LustyLew wrote:
Don't forget the Danger in DRABC. If the manager is out of the workplace, they would be putting themselves in potentially more danger. Junkies who gets pumped with Naloxone (or whatever brand you want to use) wont be best pleased.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.


That is considered to be the main risk with Naloxone, that youve effectively nulled someones high and they might get angry with you for wasting it.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 15:49 - 18 Sep 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ste wrote:
Ribenapigeon wrote:
There is no negative legal consequences for injecting Naloxone as a first aid measure even if yoyr not sure the collapse is due to an opiate OD.

"Prenoxad Injection should only be used in an emergency situation where it is known or suspected that an overdose has occurred and opioid drugs may be involved."


My emphasis.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 15:52 - 18 Sep 2018    Post subject: Re: liability in refusing to give first aid assistance. Reply with quote

Ribenapigeon wrote:
If a manager was approached by an employee seeking assistance to give first aid to someone just outside the companies place of business and refused to do so when that manger has the appropriate training and access to particular specialised medical equipment is there hell to pay?


I shouldn't think there's anything to pay in that circumstance, but I also think that there's a very strong moral obligatoin to help if at all possible.
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