Quick learner bike question - CG125 replacement?

[Riejufixing]

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[Teflon-Mike]

[m1tch]

[Riejufixing]

[m1tch]

[Teflon-Mike]

Note I said 'Generic' Chinese copies, clones and derivatives.
The Yamaha YBR, that I have been advocating to learners for a decade is ALSO 'made in China' but like the Honda CB125F. These are rather different devices to the parts-bin sweat-shop specials, built with 'available parts' based on old CG or C70 engines, or Suzuki GS derived engines etc.

With almost twenty years experience of the things, my opinion isn't simple bigotry, and I have heard the 'Well the Japanese started making sub-standard copies of Eurpoean designs, the Chinese have to get better!" countless times.

Its also a fallacy; The japanese 'copied' to my knowledge only two european motorcycle designs; the DKW RT125, appropriated by the allies as part of war reparations, and built in the UK by BSA as the Bantam; the American 'licence' given to reed-organ maker Yamaha by the American 'reconstruction' team. Kawasaki, then gained a licence to manufacture the BSA A65, which they rediscovered thirty years later ans sold as the W65 'Retro'. Honda, never made a direct 'copy' of a Euro design, and were early top champion entirely 'new' designs, frequently more advanced and innovative as well as better built than european offerings, and set the standard for the other Japanese manufacturers to follow.

As far as 'Quality' goes, it's interesting to note that the US 'Gurus' sent to Japan as part of the post WWII reconstruction are so venerated; but they had a blank canvas to work on; it had been a century since British Engineer Witworth 'invented' ideas of standardization and limits and fits modern QC is based on, but, the Japanese with 'free' american consultants took on board the theoretical scientific management principles, and unconstrained as in the UK or US by the 'legacy' of industrial evolution and demarcation or simple snobbery, re-invented Fordist mass manufacturing principles (pioneered, in.. oooh yes! That will be the BSA in brum!!!), and re-packaged them as 'Total Quality Management' and re-sold them to UK and US manufacturing companies with catchy TLA's or Karate-Brand names like Poke-Yoke, in the 1980's....

Hmmm... that's less than 40 years, from going from a nuclear waste-land to the 'leaders' in manufacturing technology....

China? Well, Hong-Kong was repatriated by China in 1997, that's about 20 years ago... in that time.... the only parallel to the Japanese is that they were 'given' via government partnership licence to the Honda CG design, and a few others... And for twenty years.... THAT is exactly what they have carried on making..... in ever greater quantity to ever lesser build quality..... OH yes! There has been 'some' attempt to up the game.... they have under direct Honda and Yamaha supervision made the CB and the YBR, and they have tried to make some 'bigger' bikes based on I think Suzuki designs... HARDLY the quantum leap of embracing total quality principles to make high durability, low maintenance or even high performance 'products' ...

To put the lack of Chinese industrial evolution into context.... the Japanese only 'seeded' thier motorcycle manufacturing in the 1950's. Sochiro Honda's world tour of motorcycle manufacturing plants took place in 1956/7, and culminated in the first Honda entry at the IOM TT in 59. By that time, they were making an 'advanced' 250cc over-head cam twin... twins were popular in Europe, but not that small, only usually over 350cc, whilst it was an either/or, you could have a twin cylinder engine, or an over-head cam engine... honda made one with both; So in barely a decade, the Japanese makers were rivaling if not exceeding the state of the art technology of Europe. By 1969, with the launch of the Honda CB750K0, with four cylinders and a single overhead cam, they were not just challenging the technology, but the performance, price and usability..... There had been four cylinder bikes before... even Overhead cam ones, and to apease the fans, I will mention the Squariel.... in it's original 500cc form in 1931, but the Japanese, in that short a space of time, were making it, and making it every-day usable and affordable... it wasn't cheap-tat, or one-trick techo-wonders.

The remarkable thing, is that the Japanese techno race of the 1970's and 80's, was fueled by incredible government and banking incentive to 'innovate' and export, that have gradually been rescinded from the late 1980's on... China? Hmmm... they have had a similar and enormous kick-start, with artificially deflated currency on international markets and a drive for export on the back of it.... they have even had Japanese 'gurus' teaching them modern manufacturing principles, like the Yanks did the Japs forty odd years ago.... BUT.. despite those advantages? Yeah.... almost twenty years, and the Chinese motorbike makers are STILL for the most part making low-rent cottage built copies of antiquated Japanese design, they are NOT making something that makes the Yamaha R1 look like a Triumph Bonaville, like the Japanese did..... how much of a 'chance' should we credit them with?

This is not knocking them because they are chinese, this knocking them because of what they are... low rent mass made knock-offs of antiquated Japanese designs, with no sign of 'progress' to even the current state-of-the-art.

Meanwhile.... original proposition was that 'most' 125's could at least achieve the UK national Speed-Limit.... which is 60mph.... even though many credit the 'elevated' duel-carriageway limit of 70mph as the UK limit.....

Fact STILL remains that whilst a YBR or CB125 'might' on a good day scrape the 60mph UK NSL, they wont, under thier own steam, achieve the 70mph limit. Meanwhile, 'most' 125's in this country now are not YBR's or CB125's or even CBF's, nor CBR's or YZF's or any of the other Japanese branded 125's; Almost half of new UK bike registrations are under 125cc, Lexmoto, who sell only rebranded Chinese bikes are number 9 in the top ten, and above them, Harley Davidson, Triumph and BMW dont even offer a bike that is in the up to 125cc catagory!

"Most" 125's on the road in the UK are then, first not bikes, but most often scooters, and those bikes there are, 'mostly' generic Chinese offerings, WHICH, are limited to the Asian regulatory speed limit of 55mph.

THIS is not bigotry, this is fact.. whether you like it or not, whether you think it fair or not...

I think it rather sums up more about your point of view that you dismiss these facts by trying to suggest some personal bias against Chinese bikes in general, A-N-D then the whole argument by asking why any-one would 'need' go 70mph.....

You asked the question:-

[Ste]

Folk spend thousands every year to dangle a bit of string in a lake to try and out-wit a fish, that even if the win, they likely wont even eat, and just chuck back! And they call that 'fun'?!?!? Others spend as much or more every year on green fees to go ruin a nice walk in teh country, as Churchill said, knocking a plastic ball around trying to loose it down a rabbit hole.... what do they expect, the march hair and the mad hatter to pop out and chuck it back? I REALLY dont get these things....

But then, the folk that do them would probably look at my collection of old Honda 125 Super-Dreams and other old scrap, and say the same, and wonder why I wast just as much time, and probably as much money doing something just as futile.....

Now... the little super-Dreams I blame squarely on my other half Snowie... she wanted to do one to get her motorbike licence on... and left me to pick the pieces.....

Twenty years ago, though, in a similar situation to you, I was flying a desk; the road-bike had to be parked up 'cos "Kids" and commuting was killing it....

I had, in the shed, though my Montesa Cota 248 trials bike, that I have owned since 1986, when its first and only 'Daylight' MOT had just expired, and bought to do competition trials on, before I was even old enough to have a moped on the road.... that had, for over a decade been thrashed, trashed and abused, doing the occasional gypsy trial with whatever club I could find hosting something not too far away, I might get to.... and had been torn down and fully rebuilt, at least three times then! so I did sort of know its mechanics pretty well.

So, I made decision, to do over, tear it down, completely renovate it, and do at least one full season with just one club, given that at that point they had created a class for the old T-Shock trials bikes it could be entered in.....

And despite spousal approval and dissaproval, changing with the wind, or more often... that is what I did.

Thing is.. I had the bike to start with, saving that choice; I knew who to go to for the bits, saving a lot of searching, I knew the mechanics, saving even more... and I had a reason to do it... to go trialzin... and that reason, gave the bike a purpose, and kept the remit relatively tight and kept 'silly ideas' in check... I was not going to be having daft ideas of PIR headlamp conversions, or mono-shock conversions, or giving it ape-hanger handle-bars!

THAT 'reason' then steered the renovation; finished bike had to meet the regs for class, and be trials worthy, it had to work, and work well, pretty paint and fancy accessories wouldn't help that, so what money and effort was chucked at it got put into replacing bearings and oiling cables etc, not pin-striping on the petrol tank, or hand-stitching the saddle....

When done.... end result even managed to take me to a class win in one event..... in however many full seasons with two clubs.....

A-N-D I have a folder upstars some-where with all entry and results sheets in it, that probabloy has a few reciepts from Sammy Miller Spares... that represent about 1/10th of what I spent just on the bike, let alone getting to and taking part in the events!

But what the heck... I could have spent more money dangling a bit of string in a pond catching nothing but a cold.....

SO!!!!!!!

IS this how you REALLY want to spend your leisure time and money?

If so... pick whatever takes your fancy that you think you can get the value from in the doing and after in the using.

If you aren't going to get the pleasure from it, it will NOT be worth the doing, and given the liklihood that the thing, even with the odds stacked in your favour, picking a more popular machine people might pay good money for when done, and doing it to the book 'standard' that they are most likely to want and pay for... you barely stand a chance of breaking even.. let alone paying for the skinned knuckles..... it will just NOT be worth the doing... you may as well go dangle a bit of string in a polluted canal.... it will be just as frustrating, just as miserable, but you likely wont loose heart so quick, or waste as much money along the way.....

SO... ball back in your court.... start with a project brief... what would you like at the end.... something to stick on display in your hallway? something to go down the pub on a sunny sunday afternoon? something to go enter in concourse shows? something to stick round a track in classic competition, WHAT?

It would be like asking what airfix model we think you should make... a tank, a plane, a car, a 00 scale railway station!!! There IS no answer... its your call.

And if you have no railway set, a 00-cale railway station probably isn't much use to you; if you have no interest in WWII tanbks, why make one, so will a spitfire on a plastic stand look good on your desk?

That is the way you need to be thinking.

You start with the idea, you look at both ends, go round the circle, asking quations and deciding if the idea has any merit, and change the remit a bit to come up with a spec that is achieveable; they you go around the loop again, looking at the details, changing the plan to suit, then put it into action... pays your money and takes your chances.. get the bike YOU think you would kike to do, that stands best chance of being done... and then start going round the loop again, and again and again, resolving the unseen, the problems, adapting and clarifying to get closer to the goal,,, you set NOW.. which has to be clear, and near cast in stone, and kept in sight at all times IF you want any chance of seeing it through and achieving something even close to what you hope.

That is aboutr the onbly real advice I can offer; start with a clear idea of what you want to achieve, and stick to your objectives; if half wayu through, DONT change the goal.

Eg: you start out to do a concourse resto, but find half way through that there is something critical, like say an air-boxc you cant get for love nor money; you dont suddenly decide, well.. Oh kay, we can live without the air-box, use a cone filter, and hmm... its not concourse any-mnore, and exhausts are expensive, I'll build a chopper.....

You get into that sort of game, the project goes off track; every time you get stuck, or hit a problem, changes direction, and you end up with something that is neither nor; bits here and there are done to concourse, bits there are done like a chopper; bits over there, are done like a dirt bike, and NOTHING really works or fits together, and what you end up with, if it gets finished doesn't fullful any real purpose or deliver the fun in the riding, cos its painful to ride.

B-U-T all starts at the beginning... its YOUR project, check dictionary defanition; that is a defined endevour of whatever YOU wish to do.. no one wlse can do the defining for you; you have to do it. And THAT if anything is the key... defining what you want to do, making a plan and sticking to your guns not chopping and changing until you realise goals.

You want advice for a first timer; keep it simple, keep it standard; work to the book,; rather than trying to re-write it.

Dont have any daft ideas that its going to be 'cheap' or easy, or 'quick'.

It will almost certainly take three times as much money as you originally plan, times the space, and ten times the time....

So make your plan flexible, and give yourself lea-way for this sort of over-run.

Look in profile, you will see pretty detail threads on at least two of my projects, an air-cooled Yamaha DT12/75 mono-shock, which was originally supposed to be a low rent pocket money project and was far from it; another Honda 125 superDream done as a 'Watch and Do' example for Snowie, who did her own, also linked on another thread. Off Snowies profile, probably linked from her 'Pup' project is her having a crack at rebovating a MotoGuzzi 750 after she had passed tests, I hindered with and put up with its gearbox on my kitchen side!!!!

Should be plenty of inspiration there; and even more in the threads in show and tell... which is worth a look at how many end abruptly, often after little more than an optimistic intro, and some photo's of old scrap, we never see turned into anything resembling a working motorbike..... whether they want to build a concourse Classic out of a Bantum or a Cafe--Brat-Chop out of a Shinrey chinky CG clone.....

That is where you probably should start, and noting just how many 'projects' get started... and so few 'fininshed'... you have been warned.

NOT the answer you were hoping for, I am sure.... but sorry....

Me, I would do another Honda CB125 Twin.... mainly 'cos that's what I got. Or a Montesa Cota 248... cos thats also wot I got.... or a VF1000 cos thats another wot I got... and I'm a glutton for punishment..... none of which are particularly sensible... not that any project ever is; so what the heck... how many quick do you want to chuck down the drain.... or transfer into my Pay-Pal.....

Its your call... give us some better idea of your budget and aspirations, and we might be able to advice or steer... BUT its ultimately down to you.... remember, three times, five times, ten times, money, space and time, let alone the hassle.... its not 'sensible' and whatever you pick and however you tackle it, all you will ever manage to do is make it a bit less daft.....

Would you rather be fishing? that is the question.

Twenty years ago, that's exactly what I would have said.
And in fact, right up until ten years ago, was still saying.... B-u-t....
They haven't made any really for two decades, far too many have been hack-and-wreckered to oblivion in the intervening on ideas they are 'sooo-simple' and more they are easy to tune, and make a great starter bike.... which they may have done.... thirty years ago.

Now... for a low rent, as easy as you might make it base, I would likely be steering some-one towards something CG-ish... whether a genuine Honda CG that may sell on the cult status when done for not so great a loss, or a derivative like the XR125 dirt donk, if not too field-biked.

I'd avoid the Chinky clones and copies and derivatives.... they have never been desirable or valuable.... and takes as much or more time cost and hassle to renovate one as a genuine Honda that stands much better chance of being worth a fraction of whats put in to do it.... but provided you dont expect to buy bits like for a Ford Escort by make, model year at a conveniently local dealers or motorfactors.... they do benefit from sooooooo many of the parts being made for the chinky clones and derivatives in china, and on ebay, which can be substituted for so much less money than trying to special order from Franchise Honda or old-Hondaz--iz-uz... (Dave Silver Spares!o!) Might make a good donor bike if you can pick up a reletively complete and preferably running one without MOT for pennies, though.

Honda H100? thier air-cooled two-smoke commuter... in many ways better bike than the CG... and oh-so-simple to work on... but even though the thing had cult status in Germany, and there's a lot of support and even tuning goodies for them there, still a more awkward one to try tackle.

Suzuki GP100/125? I wouldn't touch with a barge pole. Just too many bits of unobtainium and far too many examples hack-and wreckered.

Yamaha RXS100.. yamaha's offering.... has something of a cult status, if you put in the leg work, and find the interchangeable bits from DT100's and TY80-'s and the like, you stand a reasonable chance with one, but I know for a fact that there are bits of unobtanium in there like seat bases, and chrome mudguards are only closest match from 'universal' pattern spares.

My favourite, would have been the Kawasaki KH100/125, disc valved made for many years with little change, in 6v and 12v form.... But now I would now be very sanguine at the suggestion; too many bits of unobtanium in there, and not even the support or cross-model compatibility that the RXS has.

The eLCies.. Hohda NS/NSR, & MTX, Yamaha TZR & DT, Kawasaki AR, KMX and ???I'm sure there were 2 LC 125 dirt derivatives) Farr too many hack--and-wreckered trying to kiddie go kwik, more fiel bikes thrashed to death, and plenty sold without log books or number plates that are probably nicked. I wouldn't touch or reccomend any of the dirt bikes for those sort of reasons, before the complexity of the watercooled and oft power valved engines, and on things like the NS/R nikasil chrome cylinders, which now so old, and so desirable for so long, are a minefield, with the googlie of so many Italian grey imports and non UK models chucked into teh mix.

DAFTLY... I would actually be far more endeared by the suggestion of a Vespa PX125... Scootah boy round the corner hates them because of the nikasil chrome bore and ill adviced attemps by twits to tune them; but they had a pretty long contentious production run and rather like the CG, many clones and copies made in India, providing pool of relatively cheap bits.. and the tin-work, if you get handy with dollies and a MIG covers so many 'crimes'.. and like 750-fours or Z1's or Meriden Bonnies, but probably more so... they sell for good money on being a real-deal scooter like the Mods, and being a 125 any duffer with a car licence might ride on CBT and L'S

Given my preferences, though If I had a clean sheet of paper, and the inclination, which I did when snowie got all enthusiastic about it, would be an Air-Cooled Yamaha TY.. probably a TY175 trials bike. simple single cylinder, air-cooled engine, but another incredibly long production history little changed from teh mid 70's until the late 80's early 90's. There's bugger all to them in trials trim to demand much attention... just two wheels an engine a pair of forks and a pair of shock absorbers, really.. I've worked on more sophisticated mopeds! A-N-D incredibly well supported via Yam-bits or the old trials iron emporiums... A-N-D wait there's more... in built reason and use pitting one in action in classic T-Shock trials when done. Barn-finds and scrub-ups tend to be priced a bit optimistically, but raggy trialed examples come up slightly more reasonably, if not cheaply, that do offer something worth the tackling likely maybe not to be worth as much money as you'd likely sink into one, but at least stand a good chance of being worth close to what you spend, especially if you keep it strictly 'functional' as a competition renovation rather than go over board on cosmetics for concourse dreams... and plenty of chance to get lots of cheap fun from when done, throwing round a quarrey in classic comp every other week-end for absolute peanuts... cheaper than insuring a moped it is!

In the big-bike arena? Its a huge arena, and theres far too many optimists trying to flog any old tat on aspirations of 'rare and desirable classic' or 'ideal Brat-Chop-Basis'.

In the last decade or so, the 200-400 arena has been picked bare by 33bhp restricted licence holders, and bikeshed geek0nick optimists. Things like Honda ~25N super-Dreams got daft decades ago, with teen-revival optimists, trying to scrub up things that has spent twenty years being ridden into the ground by despatchers or daily commuters, and theres far too much pretily painted scrap out there.

The 400 'Super-Sports' of the late 80's and 90's are anothoer definite no-go zone. Most came to the UK as scrap from Japan where punative tax laws to support the domestic manuafacturers encouraged them to write them off. coming here as 'cheap' supersports for folk that couldn't afford 600s they were often thrashed into the ground trying to keep up with the 600's, then bodged to death with improvised rapairs when bits were found not to be the same as the few genuine UK models or 600's or just completely unobtainable... and those folk that revere them took first pick in the breakers......

Which leads into the 'Japanese Classics' and things like original GPz600's... which are a wonderful bit of history, but to my mind a nightmare to try and restore with so much model specific plastic, and 16" wheels you have almost no choice of tyres for. Early CBR600's pretty similar... find one ethat hasn't been badly 'street-fightered'..... like a 600 Bandit lacking anodised 'bling' or ranthal handlebars!

A Yamaha XJ600 diversion, is a pretty safe bet.... cos of how common it was... but equally how un-valuable and un-saught after... you can likely find a near mint example that has lived most of its life in a garage waiting for a Sunny day, and for less money than trying to fix up an ex-school hack dropped by every DAS student asked to tackle an e-stop!

And the big bike market, in general, only venerates the bikes that were popular when new, that were must have icons... like the early slabside ray-gun exhaust GSXR's... find one with a full set of plastics and original exhsaust... not in a museum!!! Or launch year '93 fire-Blades... not foxeyes, or or or... and so it goes on, and you are in a mire where unless its a minter to negin with, you are goinhg to struggle trying to sort cracked or faded plastics and ideas of street-fightering... and suddenly genuine Z1's and CBX1000 'six' start to look viable ecconomical projects..... and alternatives just that... cheap because they just aren';t the bike you or any-one else really wants.....

In the 125 arena, you do at least have a double or tripple bite at the cherry, that folk can still ride them on CBT and L's increasing the target market to punt one on; you have the nostalgia relive or 2nd chance teen-dreams to sell to, a-n-d you have the chance that there are so many more of them, if so many more in more dire state... but usually that much more simple to tackle.. if you apply a bit of common, and dont pick anything with a lot of plastic body-work, or water-cooling, but that does give dilemah with teen-revival models which probably were.

Which means... there is really very little that makes any sort of 'sensible' suggestion... so its just a case of picking the least stupid, that you are most comfy loosing money, sleep and blood over along the way!!!!

And if you are NOT going to make use of when done, if it Is just for the doing... what will sell most easily to the widest audience....

The answer to which is something brochure standard and near concourse, and since half new bike sales are in the Learner-Legal arena and have been for thirty years.. probably something learner legal.

It's a four-stroke 125 single, that in tip top fettle, might have once upon a time, made a heady 12bhp... put into a dirt bike frame with high seat and wide bars, given a psedo-motard styling job and slick tyres....

A good two-stroke dirt-bike, might, with 20hp or so, just about reach 75-80mph. Learner-Legal ones? Well the Yamaha DT125 was electronically giverned at 65mph 'cos of stability. A four stroke, with a design spec of 12bhp, is unlikely to achieve even that... and one would have to ask why you would want to with such a tall CofG and short wheel-base....

Old rule of racing... before looking for MORE than standard... make sure you have all you should AS standard....

50-55mph doesn't sound like it does.... and oooh... little one-lunger learner-bikes.... dont tend to fair very well in the hands of learners, trying so often to run them on a shoe string, and with lary ideas, IF they bother to lift a spanner to them, of making them 'faster' rather than 'laster'... drilling holes in air-boxes removing the exhaust washer thingy restricter wotsit, putting monster-g-fast stickers all over it, and removing baffles from the exhaust..... rather than,,,, oooh... changing the oil, replacing the spark-plug, cleaning the air-filter or tickling the tappets.....

You want 'faster'.... forget ideas of tuning... just forget it!!! If you want fast, you bought the wrong bike.... a high wide dirt-bike mased machine just doesn't have the basic ingredients to go quick, and with a four-stroke single cylinder engine... you dont have a hope of giving it any more power to help.

SO!!!!

Start with a basic propper service.... change the oil, tickle the tappets, give it a new spark plug, A-N-D try and find all the botcxhes, bodges and 'go-fast' mods prior owners have attempted,...... probably very very badly... and put it back to standard.

Should go a bit quicker... but more importantly whatever fast you get will last!

If you want 'fast' buy a faster bike..... and that probably wont be a 125... even the fastest of the fast hot-snot two-stroke 125's are not exactly much more than a bit brisk in the greater scheme of stuff.. the homogation special, factory prepared 'race' bikes, JUST about managed to crack a genuine ton under FIM test regs.... which is pretty slow, if you look at the books, where almost anything over 125cc can get those sort of numbers and not go 'bang' in the trying!!! That is abouyt as quick as a thirty something year old Honda 250 four-stroke single 'commuter' bike!!!

A-N-D on a CBT you dont have a licence, you have a learner's permit... go get some savvy, save your cash for getting a licence, and prove you can handle the pathetic power of a 125....

Then, Oh-Kay, you might not be allowed to ride anything bigger or pokier than a 125.... and anything that can better 15bhp and about 75mph... which can still break all UK speed limits without too much effort, is going to be outside the limitations of a licence you dont even hold right now..... but, what the heck... not needing to display L-Plates that are probably missing, broken, under-size or non regulation, is a good reason NOT to get pulled, for a look-see, to see what else they can knoble you on... like a noisy pipe, or lack of insurance or riding other than in accordance, 'cos bikes not learner-legal....

YOUR CALL... but start with a basic, proper, thorough service, and finding all you should have as standard, before having silly ideas about making slow-bike, likely slower, less reliable and less valuable for the effort.

In the mean-time... enjoy the fact you are too young to have more... old age has little to commend it, big bikes is one of the few compensations.

There only diddy... sure you could find space for one, somewhere.... the living-room perhaps?

Uncle used to have an MV Augusta Ipotesi as a piece of statuary in the hall at the farm, when my Gran died....... had to chuck out the Jacobean dresser to make room for it..... and the telephone had to go on the floor.... "Useless bit of furniture!" He grumbled... I wasn't sure whether he was talking about the dresser or the Ipotese!

Another acquaintance, actually had three ex GP125's in his living room... one was a Kreidler, I think, the other two probably Derbi's, co-incidentally.....

When he got married..... his missus told him she was NOT going to put up with a work-shop for a living-room... where his RC30 had usually lived... normally in bits.....

So he re-decorated!

Dont sweat the small stuff, big-boy.....

125's are all much of a muchness... I'm 6'2" ish depending on the weather, and anywhere between 12 & 15 stone, depending on the mood of the scales.... (I do have a yo-you weight issue actually!) I have a CB750 'big-bike' and a CB125 'tiddler', and there's bog all difference in 'fit' twixt them cos of how big the engine may be.

Motorbikes are like 'off-the-peg' cloths... they are made around standard patterns to fit most folk of average size.

How big the hole where fire happens in the engine, has little or no bearing on how large the rest of the motorcycle may be.. they are still designed to fit a standard shaped and average sized rider, regardless, and a pair of 26" wide handlebars, don't much care whether they are fitted to a Mobilette 35cc pedal and pop moped, or a CB1000 super-bike....

The issue as far as fit goes is the ergonomics, and the distance twixt, boot, bum and bars.

Now, forget seat height; that's just how far bum be from floor, and easy to kid yourself you need a bike with tall seat to suit long legs, or low seat to suit short ones.

Here-in lies the niggle of girls with little legs buying cruisers... with very low seat heights.... cos of short legs... that then dont reach the forward set foot=-pegs in another county some-where infront of the engine, and wide bars that spread them out like a bondage-bar... which I probably wouldn't complain about.... sorry, wheat were we talking about.... my mind got stuck on images of leather stretched tightly over breasts.....

Oh... yeah.. sorry.. where were we... oh yeah, Leather clad Gilrls on Cruisers.....

We apologize for the interruption.... Normal service may return shortly after the screen has been cleaned... in the mean time please listen to some musak

... unable to turn the bars more than a couple of inches without leaning the wrong way.

Conversely, tall lads get dirt-bikes... cos seat is long way from floor, which must suit long legs, right? Only problem goes t'other way. Now the footpegs are usually lifted as much or more from the floor as the seat... which on soft, long travel off-road suspension probably squashed down to something as close to the floor as a cruiser when 13 odd stone is put on it.... leaving distance twixt footpegs painfully close to bum, and with very narrow saddles to allow rider motion 'off-road' thay can be as pile-fully excruciating as a plank for a seat sports bike with rear-set pegs..... and the handle-bars again, have issues, placed wide, which may not be such a problem is you have neanderthal arms like me, but set back close to the seat, so you are elbowing following traffic at more than 1/3 lock.....

That's two corners of the triangle; third is sports-bikes; which often an incredibly small 'slot' for a saddle, rear-set pegs and incredibly narrow bars, that can create similar perversions.

Of note; one of THE most painful bikes I have ever tried to ride, was oooh... thirty odd years ago, and a Honda MT125 GP bike; forerunner of the RS racers. WHEENY little thing; issues I had with it was that it had a bub-stop seat like racers do, so I could just about sit 'in' it, but then it had a fairing, but so narrow I could neither get my knees in it, or behind it.... it was a bit like Wurzel Gummage on a push bike! But this is to point at the extreme...

And that IS sort of the point; at the extremes, whether its for road-racer sports style, whether for Sons-of-Appethy chopper fantasies or dirt busting Charlie & Ewan dreams.... you run out of the 'average', and in all liklihood, any body that's out of the average is going to have more struggle on one.

Back to the fact that the bike is designed around an average sized person, regardless of the size of hole where fire happens....

If you are at the extremes of 'average' or beyond them, you are, like trying to buy a pair of off the peg trousers, going to struggle some, and find a fit thyat is the best compromise you can.....

Hint here is that the 'average' less syle conciouse usually 'naked' commuter, like a CG125, lexmoto or MT125, is more likely to be LESs of a compromise... but its up to you to pick the one you 'think' you can most easily live with....

INSURANCE

I say it time after time, but when trying to start biking, the BIKE is actually almost the last thing you need worry about... long list of stuff that's far more significant you need before that, and after CBT, and contemplation of a proper full licence, training, tests, a crash hat, water-proofs cos this is Britain..... locks, security, and stuff... INSURANCE is usually the crux point.

For typical 17 year old, insurance quotes can be astronomical; especially if you don't look at the proposal form so well, and dont tick the "+commuting" check box. Worth noting that motorcycles, now, so often used as second and leisure vehicles, do not usually included "+Commuting" in the standard SDP cover, you have to opt in for that cover... and it can STING when you do.....

No real tricks to getting insurance prices down, other than say GET OLD! Which works... but otherwise has little merit to it! And for a typical 17 year old depending on post-code, its likely that the annual insurance premium will be as much or more than they paid for the bike..... £1000+a year premiums are the norm, not the exception.

"The monthly plan" also worth mentioning; its not paying for insurance monthly; its taking out a loan to pay for a years insurance.... 17 year olds can struggle here, because they are not legally old enough to tale out a credit deal..... but that then hides a lot of the sting in the take small print, and on a monthly plan, first you will be paying something like 20% more than the premium price in credit charges.... on a £1000 policy that can be a not insignificant amount on its own.... as much as togging up with hat and gloves and decent boots... every year.... but then the hidden charges start to bite; and you can be left owing the credit company even after a 'claim' has supposedly paid out 'in full' because the insured value is subject to 'excess' and after they have deducted those, and terminated the policy, they only pay the value of the bike, and that can be less than outstanding repayements on the credit plan....

BE WARNED... I have not and WILL not tried to 'help' any of my kids trying to wangle insurance for them, by say taking a policy in my name, with them as named rider, or undersigning credit plan.... now ex did for one... and was left moaning that No4 son diodn't pay her back the monthlies that came out of her bank, and then when his bike was nicked, were still being taken from her account for six months after he'd given up on it, and grumbled he couldn't owe her anything, he'd not seen any of the insurance money..... she must owe him! It is just NOT somewhere I want to go or be involved in! Your call if you do.... just dont say I didn't tell you so!!!

BUT, that's a hurdle;e to be jumped, and often one of the biggest.... you cant do much about the rider's age; you cant do much about the rider's gender, you cant do much about the riders post code, etc etc etc.

Means that one of the few variables you can mess with to try get more reasonable premiums, is picking the most insurable bike. Here, the newer it is, the more expensive it is; the more expensive the bike, the more expensive it is to insure; the more stylish it is... the more expensive it is to insure. Old and Ugly tends to work quite well!

Bench-Mark Learner/Commuter motorcycle of recent times is the veritable YAMAHA YBR125.. it's not particularly flashy; is usually pretty solid though, and has about as much performance as any pof them. Is well known and common, and has lots of after-market support for spares and accessories, and IS in the insurance companies date-bases, unlike obscure European or Chinese offerings, sold under almost fly-by-night brand-names that dont seem to last as long as the tyres.... The YBR is a known and trusted quantity, and other than overall being one of the cheapest 125's to own in the long term.. what extra you might have to pay to buy one, you usually get back when you sell, and save whilst you own..... it IS easy to live with.... its also easy to ride, its a regulation as average as they come learner motorcycle, with as few compromises to style or performance as they can give it. Usually fits most reasonably comfortably... it just does the job, no mess no fuss, no frills.. though more than enough thrills if you go looking for'em!

Bought at three or four years old, with a fresh MOT, the first ownbers have taken the biggest sting of new bike depreciation, and you should be able to get a bike for about half the cost of a new bike in the show-room, that still has more than half it's useful service life in it, and some assurance it hasn't been tinkered, crashed or serviced into oblivion during MOT exemption.... as said, bench-=mark Best VFM 125 out there.

Typical example will likely cost around £1500 or so, use that as bench mark to judge all else by.

As said, designed around 'average' ride, and few if any compromises for alternative style, it should fit pretty much any-one 'reasonably' well...

Alternatives?

Well, first off, there's 60odd million people in the UK. Over half of them can drive a car, and there are actually more cars taxed for road use for them to drive, than there are folks licenced to drive them. Less than 1% of road transport is by bike....Less than 1 million then... yet around 3x as many folk with a licence to ride them... and that's a FULL licence.... half the taxed bikes in the UK are Learner-Legals, any-one with a licence can ride on L-'s... so there's a heck of a lot more potential buyers for a lot less possible vehicles.... and of the half million or so 125's there may be.... 2/3 or more are mopeds and scooters, not 'bikes'.

You come down to perhaps 150,ooo learner legal motorcycles you could buy for the lad, the length and bredth of the country; owned on average 18 months or so, less than 1000 might come up for sale in any one month.... and of them? Probably half will be tag end of life scrap heap refugees, or restoration projects. A Third of what's left will likely be nearly new and in MOT exemption, out of budget or in dealers show-rooms with inflated price tags.

Leaves maybe 250 motorcycles, on sale in any one month, you MIGHT actually stand a chance of finding a better example among.... the lenght and bredth of the country, if you are prepare to travel to see them, and get there before any-other optimist with £-notes burning a hole in thier pocket......

You THINK you have choice, and you think you want to make the smart one... but reality is its Hobson's....

You cant buy a bike that aint for sale... and you have to be prepared to travel to find it, and travel quick to get a better one before any-one else does...

And your choice... REALLY?!? With an eager teenager at your heel? Nagging you to get the first thing they rev-up on some-ones drive?!?

My advice; Stuff the mags, stuff the specs; matters very little.. what matters is bikes you can get to, see and sussed out in the metal... and a bike thatr might look great in the brochures or reviews wont look so great in cold day-light, after three or four numpty learners have had at it..... then specs mean little, what's in the metal matters....

But again... you have to be there, on the spot looking at something, with the quid-coins rattling in your pocket, first... and the bike, is STILL pretty much last thing on the list of stuff to worry about.....

And Yam YBR125, remains the bench-mark..... get your lad to sit on one, and give him the schpiel about how they are the best one-size fits all, least cost, least hassle, most 'sensible' learner-bike.... and work from there......

IF... and this is BIG if... you actually want to make this YOUR problem, and be the one in the firing line for anything and everything from lending the extra to get the bike they think really worth the extra, to putting your name on credit agreement for insurance, to being the one, trying to cram the thing in the back of an estate car, when he's gone top a party and one of his 'mates' had decided to pull the fuel hose for a laugh! Or worse!

Having been there, done that and got the T-Shirt.. now, I would be very very sangine about getting that involved, and reckon it easier to be called a miserable old bugger, than any of the other possible names that would get chucked at me! I WOULD get involved... I know... done it too many times.... but I'd be curbing enthusiasm and putting definite limits on what help I'd offer.... including not being the one to check the chain for them, let alone undersign credit agreements!!! Like I said... your kid, your call, but dont say I didn't tell you!!!!

Meanwhile, not answering the question you wanted answering, make and model, make very little odds in the grander scheme, you can only buy a bike that's for sale... forget the mags, forget the brochures, go pound shoe-leather... no point setting your sites on the 'perfect' fantasy league 125, if none come up in the small adds!

(Another hint, an awful lot of 125's get sold not in the mags or on e-bay or gum-tree of anywhere else you can easily 'look', but accross canteen tables at break-times, in colleges and factories or in works car-parks, by word of mouth..... use the grape-vine, look in at the post-cards in news-agents windows, ask around at work, tell lad to ask around at college, network the old fashioned face to face way like without a smart-phone!! With the odds against you to start with, you have to go that extra mile to tip the tables even slightly)


3-4 year old machine, the early owners taking the hit of new-bike depreciation, whilst leaving more life in the thing than they have used, and some assurance its not been ridden and crashed into the ground during MOT exemption.... you're either pretty smart to start, or you have read up a lot.... good choice

Maybe not so smart.. IF you are competant and confident enough to commute... you shouldn't need practice... just the tests... then you could have a full licence and no need to 'practice'... you need practice... go practice, don't commute.

Daily commute is wot you has to do, not wot you want to do.. and anticipating the grief you are going to get, whilst you wake up.. you are not really in a learning frame of mind, or the most alert or clued in, to learn anything, even if it isn't the 'Rush-Hour' and you are trying to dodge umpety other numpties also onlyt half awake, contemplating a day of grief from boss or customers or clients or collegues, also not the most alert to what they should be doing like... WATCH THE EFFIN ROAD!! NO, that poor biker DIDN'T come out of no-where!!!!!! And "Sorry-Mate-I-Didn't-See-You" DOESN'T make it all alright!!!

L-Plates is for learning... to pass tests... not dodging them or getting too and from work on the cheap.... you want to 'Learn' go do it on your own time, where there aren't so many half awake idiots to dodge and you dont have to make excuses to the boss if you are late.. and take tests.. THAT is supposedly what you have L-Plates for.... when you have the licence, then you can go play with the psyco-killers-in-cages on the way to work.... maybe.....

Also worth mentioning that L-Plates and going it alone, is not the best way to learn much.... it don't teach you what you should do, either to get from AtoB on a bike, or make man with clipboard for a personality happy and give you licence..... just punishes you.. brutally.. with pain or costs usually... if you get it wrong.... and dont even tell you what WAS wrong very often.... so back to top.... L-is-for-Learner, to learn to pass tests, not dodge'em or get to and from work on the cheap... and if you is good enough to get to and from work, you is good enough to take tests, or vica versa... if bot good enough to take tests... PROBABLY not a great idea to try getting too and from work every day!!!

I dont believe you... basic daily checks and routine maintenence should have been covered on the CBT.. A-N-D you know enough to ask.....

Beyond that.... the owners manual is as good a place to start; should tell you what routine checks and adjustments should be done, like when it needs an oil change or a fresh spark plug, what the tyres pressures should be and all that stuff.

Haynes Manual is also useful, and goes into a lot more detail on a lot more stuff, to the point of complete over-haul and minor repairs like replacing a rear view mirror....

STUFF You-Tube tutorials... any-one can make one of them, I have even done it myself.... like most stuff on the net, you have absolutely no idea whether whoever has created the tutorial or post or advice page knows the first thing about what they are talking about, or if its really a good idea to follow thier advice..... Haynes manual, for all the chapter hopping frustration they may cause IS written by folk that know what they are talking about, and you can have some confidence in.... get one, use one, save asking silly questions and getting silly answers, and possibly being lead up the garden path by it all.

Err.. yeah... maybe... almost forty years ago, now, I was told, "If you want a motorbike, you need know how to fix one... 'cos if you cant fix it you gotta pay some-one who can, and if you can afford that, you wouldn't be messin' with motorbikes, you'd be able to afford a car..." Which... held a lot of truth forty years ago, and more than a little still now... but....

Mistakes COST.. end of.

As going it alone on L's hoping that you will learn by accident... not being taught what to do, but being able to work out what went wrong when you fell off..... the ecconomic models you create to justify your ideas and aspirations can very quickly get rather dented by the real world...

And little learner bikes, IF they aren't thrashed, trashed and crashed to oblivion between periods of complete neglect... are as often killed with kindness and over enthusiastic fiddle fingers.....

One of the most common examples here, is the Chain... you get told on CBT to check the tension every ride..... and some completely ignore that lesson and ride the thing till its as slack as a witches.... or they take it to heart and adjust the tension every day.... and cause all manner of havoc... usually setting the chain over tight.. putting stress on the gearbox out-put shaft that then chews its oil seal and bearing, which then starts to whione and leak, but probably only after they have moaned about 'funny steering' becuse the axle is at an angle in its slots, the chain adjusters are chewed to high heaven, and the brake is probably binding 'cos they have never slackened off the brake adjuster to move the wheel back-wards when they have tensioned the chain....

It's all not that daunting to DIY... but the possible effups are myriad, and if you have cracked a sump over tioghtening the drain plug doing an oil changfe or stripped a thread cross threading a spark plug in its hole.... this idea that DIY 'must' save you money can get rather turned upside down, when you have to pay some-one even more, not just to do what you did wrong, but fix the damage you did trying.....

Now, paying a mechanic may NOT be such a daft ecconomy..... Think hard on that.

IF you want to learn mechanics.... it can be fin, I have spent the last 40 years playing spanners... B-U-T you dont learn it all over night, nor do you collect all the tools you need at halfords in an afternoon, and for less than what you might pay a half decent mechanic in a year.....

Start adding in the tools to do the jobs you need to, and it can be a very long time before you start to see any actual 'savings' over using a half clued and kitted pro-mechanic.... you just have more clutter to keep clean and have folk expecting to borrow.....

Have to say, that it IS good fun, much more so than another TV reality show; its also very rewarding, and you get to know your bike..... and hopefully..... very very hopefully.... that its as mechanically good as it can be, and jobs are done, and done well... which you probably don't, when you leave it with a pro and go back and get a bill, for what they say they have done...

BUT, starting out, you probably wont save much, you will likely end up spending a LOT on tools and the like, and mistakes cost.... and you WILL make them.....

Buy the book.. do it to the book.... and it should limit how far wrong you might go, and how much money you wast along the way.....

Buy the book!!! Theres a checklist in the front. Remember your CBT and your pre-ride and daily checks!

Most important thing on a bike is the tyres.... you are balenced on a knife edge between life and death, and them two skinny bits of rubber is pretty much all thats between you and catastrophe! Make sure they is good! And on a YBR that means not the ever-lasting chit they fit at the factory, or cheapo after market replacements.... good tyres are a boon on ANY bike, and even more so on a lightweight.... but completely useles if they dont hold air or have tread on them.... so check them regular.

Brakes! Before you 'go' make sure you can STOP! You probably have a low maintenance disc on the front, that is self adjusting, and easily ignored as theres not a lot to check other than the master cylinder reservoir has fluid in it..... fluid does tend to go off with age though, and what you got is probably past its best.... there was proposal to have a fluid test on MOT not so long ago, the stuff has a service life of maybe 3 years before it needs changing, and if hard used, probably sooner... and on your bike, good odds its never been flushed and replaced. Brake pads... you should just about be able to see from the front if they have meat left on them; oft harder to see is whether the pads are chewed up. Easier to see if crap has got between them and the disc if there are grooves in the disc.. but that too is oft ignored, as discs are expensive..... most likely cause of early wear though is neglect, the things have pins the caliper moves on that should periodically be cleaned and greased, and frequently aren't..... again, back to the book, its likely covered in the over-haul sections, rather than routine maintenance, but a thorough clean and grease is something that most bikes disc brakes could do with, at least annually.

Suspension... lack of effective suspension can seriousely effect your steering and stopping.. it is worth paying heed to.

Check on CBT is a quick bounce of the suspension.... but doesn't tell you much other than you have some..... rear suspension units are as standard rather bouncy to begin with, and sealed for life, you cant do much with them even if they are a bit soggy, other than replace.... but they do have rubber mounts, these could do with a quick squizz to make sure the rubber is there, the bolts tight and the units are secure.

Up front... the forks dive every time you brake... and little learner bikes get broken a lot.... learners are notoriouse for being rather 'reactive' and harsh on the brakes, using them a lot, and hard, and this pounds the front springs and the damping oil inside them.

Generally not paid much attension until they start weeping oil, and folk mutter that its a 'quick-fix' that 'only' costs a fiver... it err.... is and it isn't.... pair of fork seals are probably only £6 and a bottle of oil maybe £10.. isn't too hard a job to replace them, but its not a five minute job..... changing fork oil though is something that probably should be done far more often... and usually isn't and on a 4-year old YBR good chance its never been done.... be a good one to consider doing, and probably aught be done about once a year.

Steering.... most lightweights still use loose balls in the steering bearing, which are 'cheap' if not the easiest to lube or overhaul... they could use new grease periodically, but good chance you will loose the balls trying to fit it! Your call! They DO need asjusting periodically though to take up the slack as the bearings wear, and like a lot of stuff, often ignored until the thing is failed on MOT for it.... generally needs a special C-Spanner and is a pain as the top yoke often has to be removed to get at the nut, which means removing handlebars and stuff... which is why its oft neglected.... but is worth doing when you get a new bike, and periodically after... maybe once a year before the MOT man can moan.

Take note... gone a long way down the list so far and not even got close to anything 'engine' wise.....

Lights... you need them, they should work, and lenses shouldn't be cracked or anything. Again, its a CBT pre-ride check, oft ignored, but.. worth doing.. and a little time spent cleaning contacts and making sure lenses aren't full of condensation, spraying stuff with WD40, as a water repellant wot it was actually develoiped for, NOT as a chain oil or release agent on rusty nuts and bolts.... can save a lot of grief in the long run....

PETROL!.. probably the number one on the CBT pre-ride check-list... "Make sure you have enough furl for journey" but, you have a YBR and a late example with Fuel-Injection I would hope, that is known for eating its own fuel pumps... worth keeping tabs on that one.

Engine Oil another CBT daily/Pre-Ride check. I would do an oil change as course when I got a new (to me) bike. Check book for amount and grade, it probably takes about half a litre of so, and likes it changed pretty often, as in every 1000 miles or so.... again heed Kill-it-With-Kindness warnings above, do NOT over tighten the drain plug!

Chain & Sprockets.... already mentioned, is a CBT pre-ride check, but take heed of the killing-it-with-kindness comment....

Chain lube is a topic talked to death, to which there is no right or wrong answer really. On bigger bikes, they have been fitting 'sealed' O or X ring chains for a couple of decades. These are pre-packed at the factory with grease in the rollers, and should be sealed for life.... the lube you stick on them just eases the take up of the rollers onto the sprocket.. and can do as much harm as good, collecting road grime and making a rather effective grinding paste to wear out chain and sprockets faster.... good cleaning to get rid of grim is probably far more worth while as a precaution, than actual lube.

Sealed chains are oft replaced with 'plain' chains on competition bikes, as they don't have to last as long, and maintenance intervals are far shorter anyway, and they are lighter and dont have the same inherent amount of power-sap.... which is why they are usually the OE fit on lightweights that have very little power to start with.

My sport is comp-trials.. I have used the same chain for seasons, even in the harsh conditions 'off-road', pulling it after every event,. cleaning and then pickling in old engine oil... and a couple of times a season 'hot dipping'... putting an old pot on a camping stove full of old oil and then running the chain through it for the oil to flush out any crap in the links.... then repeating with another pot with half a pound of axle grease, melted in it, to get the grease into the links, then leaving it to hang and cool, so that grease is where its most useful, and crud isn't.... NOT so practical on an every-day road bike..... but old boys, in my yooof swore by the practice and would do it as an annual ritual.

Practically then? Remove the chain to thoroughly clean, and clean the sprockets. Keep clean between times, and use as little chain oil as you can get away with, as often as you clean to prevent building up grinding paste.

Dont worry too much about brands and bottles.. chain wax is usually thicker and intended for O-Ring chains where its not got to flow into the links, so isn't going to be that useful on a plain chain where it should.

Oil is great on the chain, but not so great on the tyres... so again, pay more attension to them... chains and sprockets are service replaceable parts, expect to have to replace them, better to have to replace a C&S kit than come off cos the oil has thrown onto chitty tyres!

Oh! whilst on the topic... 3-4 year old YBR..... I'd be tempted to replace the C&S kit as a matter of course having got it, and not need worry about it again while I have the bike TBH... BUT, I would probably also replace the chain adjusters at the same time, as they are usually chewed up by folk learning to ride and look after bikes...

BUT number one, tip, I would also replace the cush-drive-rubbers between the sprocket carrier and the hub.... These are about a tenner a set at last look... they are rubber blocks that fit between paddles on the sprocket carier and the bub, and take all the drive force.... out of site out of mind they tend to get ignored, and they 'shrink' with use as the ends get hammered between the engine driving the wheel, and the wheel driving the engine, on acceleration then breaking.... and on more clumsily ridden learner-bikes they get hammered hard... and they go hard with age....

Worst case when they 'go' you tend to get a mysteriouse 'clonk' when you roll off the throttle or brake, but long before that, the slop makes itself felt in a more sloppy gear change that gets more awkward and les precise as time goes on...

Cheap and easy fix, a new set of cush-rubbers can completely transform the gear change and make the bike so much nicer and easier to ride... its worth doing just as a bit of prevenmtative, and once done, will probably not need doing again while you own the bike.

My road bvike, gets a wash, MAYBE once a year, if its lucky so the MOT man dont moan he gets his hands dirty waggling the forks.....!!!!!

Again, DONT kill with kindness! there's much more important things to worry about than how shiny the paintwork may be, like whether the electrolyte level is between the lines in the battery.....

Products? Lol! I am NOT a GQ-Man of the millenium, it dont need fancy brand-name brylcream to be kept clean, and it wont smell no better for it!

The trials bike, REALLY benefits from a good post event clean down every event; that's done with fresh water from a pressure washer; a bucket of hot soapy water and an old dust-pan brush cloth and sponge... and its done as much to get rid of the dirt and see possible damage to tyres, wheels, engine cases etc as to make it look good....

Its NOT the cleaning that matters, its the attension to detail..... and NOT doing too much and doing stuff to make problems rather than fix'em.

Rust? If you keep it clean and lube the bits that should be then there shouldn't be any.

On a YBR, there is the small matter of low quality chrome, probably on things like mirrors, handle-bars and exhaust.... you can waste many years trying to keep on top of this with solvol or even sand-paper... but this is britain... it'll likely be back within the week.... time and effort is probably better spent on 3in1 oil to lube the clutch cable and back brake rod links, checking tyres and remembering daily checks.... just be happy its not a Honda CBF rusting before your eyes... and learn to live with it..... or buy a plastic scooter!

Go Buy and BY the book.

[Ste]

As said... use one as intended, LEARN, learn to use gears, learn to get the most out of the thing, and how big you are shouldn't really matter.... the learning does.... getting the licence does... NOT GETTING KNOCKED OFF! does.... stuff what you think you look like, stuff whether you think that 3bhp difference between a generic Chinese budget bike and a full-fat style conscious Jap-branded bike will make any difference....

In the real world it WONT....

Most roads are limited to 20 or 30mph speed limits you could achieve on a moped or even a push-bike FFS, on a 125, almost any 125, you will just brake them quicker! And you will be able to break most speed limits all the way to the motor-way limit, and until you have a fuill licence and can legall use a motorway... that really shouldn't be an issue......

Go learn.... diet if you want to, its probably good for you.... heck... push bike? Get around and get fit.. save petrol, and insurance and tax and the rest of it along the way!

Stop Thinking - Start Riding.

You have to start some-where, and if cruisers are the 'style' of bike you like, and you want to do the 125 'thing' instead of going for an A2 and a bigger-bike.... GET THE FUCK ON WITH IT!

You'll find out what its all about quick enought once you DO IT.

And you'll probably find half your worries and ideas get blown out the window.

Off the blocks, as new riders, the bikes vital statistics ENT going to be the limiting factor, it will be your evolving skill levels; THIS is why we have 'Learner-Bikes' so you can go learn on one.

There are nicer ones and nastier ones, but for the most part, they are all adequete for the job, and only real worry is whether they are value for money doing it.

Stop deliberating; get your cash in a heap, and go see what you can ACTUALLY buy for it; cos unless you buy new, your choices will mainly be constricted by what people actually have to sell, as much as by what you might actually want.

And summer's wastin'!

No one wants to spend a lot of money on a 125... consequently there is an awful lot of shit out there that can wear an L-Plate, becouse people wont pay for a decent bike, and wont spend time or money on one if they happen to have it, or even are clued up enough to know how; they are learner bikes, so many dont know much at all.

If you want a 125 you have to pay to get a decent one.

And if you want a 'good start' they are worth it.

Most important bike you will buy. Yeah, big bikes are where you want to be, and we can deliberate till the cows come home whether a CBR600 ir better than a YZF600, and which has the better suspension or brakes.... bottom line is that on a bike like that YOU the average punter that buys one for the road will NEVER apreciate the small differences between them, let alone be able to exploit any small advantage they might have, YET these things are 'important' and get a lot of debate and consideration...

the 125 you learn on, the ONE bike where having decent wheels under your arse, so that while you are learning, any wobbling going on is down to YOU and you alone, not some unknown problem with the bikes suspension or steering or suspension; and putting it right isn't pissing in the dark, wondering if its a loose bolt, a worn tyre, a clapped out damper, or you doing something daft....

Get a GOOD 125, and only thing that can make it wobble is YOU.

Makes learning that much easier; makes it an awful lot nicer, makes it a heck of a lot more FUN.

When you have a licence and you have some idea what you are doing... THEN you can actually get away with a slightly more 'tired' bike, that doesn't behave itself so well, becouse you KNOW any wobbling going on at that point is down to the bike, not you!

If you want a good start and you want a 125... well they are, from the start compromised little bikes; compromised by low displacement, low powered engines; compromised by low weight and price constraints; you really dont want more or specifically more unnecessary compromises in a machine that is already hugely compromised.

So, get as good as you can afford.

And YES, buy prices are expensive. SO you have to find more money when you buy.

But buy prices are expensive. SO you'll get more money BACK when you sell....

Best Value For Money 'Training Tool' around at the moment is the Yamaha YBR125.

New they are nudging three grand; which is about 2/3 the price of some more 'posey' 125's like the Yamaha YZF R125 race replica, or the Cruiser style Dragstar, and still a fair bit cheaper than the dirt-bike style XT125.

It is, also three times the price of a generic Chinesebranded 'Bike in a Box'.... but difference is it will still be worth something after you have attached a number-plate and it WILL do 65mph!

Brand new, is the 'best' you can get as far as reliability and known oragin, and working as good as it should, with peace of mind that you have a warranty.

BUTY you pay heavily in depreciation, and a year in, a £2800 YBR is probably worth barely £2K... two years in it will be around £1700, and at three years, around £1500.

First MOT is due at three years, and three or four year old models, priced between £1000 and £1500, are about the vest valkue you can get in the learner legal market.

They have lost all that horrible depciation, and are a half the price they were new. They also have that first MOT to give some confidence that they haven't been thrashed to death in MOT exemption period, and at ABOUT halfd their anticipated service life, probably less than half anticipated life miles will tend to have enough life in them to still be pretty tought and solid and dependable, and not be too wobbly.

Means that buy-sell risk is low. Risk is they wont need much if any thing by way of expensive maintenence or repairs; they will work well for a year or so, and can be sold, for little loss on buy price, cost of ownership, very small, tending to negligible.

So, a £1500 YBR bought, ridden and sold within a year for £1300 costs just £200.

A £900 Chinese Bike in a Box, sold a year on, is lucky to fetch £500, so would have cost £400 and not been as nice to ride or own in the mean time.

A twenty year old CG125 that costs £400, could demand £400's worth of work to get it out of the delapidation of maintenence overdraft old learner-legal commuters so frequently drop into.... might sell for £400, so only cost £400 but still just as expensive as a Bike in a Box, and twice as expensive as a YBR.... abd big risk it wont fix, or if its not fixed, you will get a years intermittent use out of it for your money and have a pile of scrap left at the end of it.

There are few bargains about in the Learner Legal market; but there can be, if you are prepared to pay for them 'up-front'...

That YBR, bought for £1300 selling for £1100 costs you £200, and still leaves you enough cash to go get a very useful 'big-bike', if thats what you want.

So where should you go now?

Well, experience is good, but bad experience isn't!

Straight out of CBT, you can go get a 125 and ride around for two years, learning by your mistakes... which can hurt.... and if twenty five years trials riding has tought me ONE thing, its teenagers bounce better! Older you get, more falling off seems to HURT!

Also not likely to teach you much about how to pass a test, though might boost your confidence a bit.

alternative is to skip 125's and do DAS, which for most means an intensive course of between three and five days, riding around with an instructor telling you what to do through an ear-piece,m giving you lots of false confidence, and taking a lot of money off you to do little more than fullfill legal requirement to supervise you riding a 'big-bike' before qualified... and I dont say that glibly, until recently I WAS an instructor.... Intensive DAS courses are a lot of money to satisfy impatience!

Once you have done your DAS course, where you will have been tought little about surviving the world of big bikes, but given a lot ot test-tricks to get you through tests, and what you might have learned about survival riding, you probably wont remember, fast in, fast out, in the cramming going on, and with little real experience to give any of it meaning or relevence......

You will come out with a full licence able to jump straight onto any bike you like, and ride it unsupervised....

And a few moments after you do so.... you will be wondering, "What do I DO!..... Theres no voice in my ear to tell me what to DO!... what did the bloike say about box junctions! I cant remember!"

This is not good, and you will be like a CBT fresh newbie on a 125, left to learn by your own mistakes...... only instead of it being a 10 or 14bhp 125, with a 60-70mph top speed..... it COULD be a 1000cc hyper bike that can out accelerate an F1 car, and reach 180mph before you can actually THINK! "Oh Shit!"

NOT! that 125's are, by dint of restricted performance MUCH better.

Often dismissed as 'Toy' or 'Kiddie Bikes', they are still credible motorcyles. You may have noted from the sig-line below I have a little fleet of them; and they are ALL fast enough to exceed national speed limit. and they are ALL quick enough to out accelerate MOST traffic. They will even stay with moderately fast cars, driven with spirit point to point, if I try hard enough.

Even a 125 has enough performance to get you into a LOT of trouble....

BUT, they do have merit. They will get you into trouble slower, and they will TEND to give you more warning, and they will TEND to demand more effort from you to be so foolish!

Bike bikes you CAN take liberties with; they have more weight, which can make them more daunting, but that mass also gives them momentum, which means it damps clumsiness and flatters poor riding, a lightweight will show up much more clearly. More power and more flexible engines will also demand less work from the rider, so again, let you get away with more, and be more lazy.

So 125s DO have merit as a training tool, they will treated with respect help you develop balence and control more acutely.

BUT, getting on and getting out, learning by mistakes is not great.

Intensive DAS courses get you a licence, but thats pretty much al they do, and can leave you on something very scary to learn by errors.

If you go 125, and its my reccomended route;' book weekly lessons on your own bike, to back up CBT, and Learn by other peoples mistakes and accumulated wisdom!

It hurts less! and doesn't take many skuffed exhausts or broken brake levers before its cost less too!

A two hour lesson; gives you enough time to learn something, without it being a blurr of information.

You then have all the time you want to go practice what you have learned, on your own time; get it sussed, and go back. AND with some road riding between lessons, more experience to give what you are tought meaning and relevence that also helps it 'stick'.

Better still though; that experience can direct questions to ask your instructor, to milk thier knowledge for all its worth, and get stuff you would NEVER get on an Intensive DAS, simpoly becouse no one would think to tell you, and you dont know enough to ask!

For a complete beginner, seven or eight two hour, weekly lessons ought to be all you need to get to test standard AND have some good arsenol of learning to survive behind it.

You now have choice becouse just becouse you TRAIN on a 125 doesn't mean you have to TEST on a 125, and you could test under DAS rules, to get ful lunrestricted A group licence.

No worries if you want, you can save pennies (at the moment; new laws come into force in a year) and test on your own 125, which will give you a full A group licence but with 2-year probationary 33bhp power limit.

This is 'enough' to be useful and if you didn'ty envissage stepping up to hyper bike at the earliest, gives plenty of options, and most 500 commuter twins, good for over 100mph and no small risk to licence, if restricted (standard they are around 45bhp and good for possibly 120mph)

This is the good way around; BUT if you are ardent on a DAS course, forwarned about the lost voices syndrome; and the DAS pass death rate amongst older riders on bigger bikes, and want to substitute for post test training, thats another way around it.

From where you are; cant make your choices for you; or make them any easier, just give you the right ideas... just when training some-one I can teach them to ride, I can teach them survival techniques, how they apply them after, really up to them..

I merely point out that they set the bench-mark standard to judge the alternatives, and as an all-round compromise, they ARE a very hard package to better.

My personal opinion of them as a 'motorcycle', is that they are possibly one of THE most boring, uninspiring and generally soulless motorcycles ever created... geez even the old Honda CB100N had 'some' sort of charecter...... you cant even ridicule them for thier styling! They are just... JUST... well, about the only thing you can say about them is "Well, at least its not a scooter!" And even in that anathmic world of engineering perversity there are machines that stand out, and have some 'interest'!

BUT, the YBR is not the be-all and end all and a paragon of motorcycling, it's about as inspiring as a washing machine.

Actually I have got more exited by a washing machine... I even had one with more charecter... used to jump out and mug me every time I had to walk past it to go to the loo!

But; like a washing machine.... it does the job.

The appeal of the YBR is in those numbers, that make it the least-risk, generally most cost effective way into biking.

Practically; its a no frills bike; there are plenty of them around; its an easy ride machine; just as many of them about; Its a 'dependable' low maintenance machine; fair few of them in the arena too. But there aren't MANY that wrap all that in one cost effective solution. Honda CBF comes close. but not 'quite' so economically.

Representing such a very very well 'optimised' package, of such keen 'value', (even brand new, they are not as bad as some!) its hard to beat, and I plaud it, msainly becouse if you want to go for something different, it sets the base line to illustrate how and where the compromise is being shifted.

Often reccomended, and much loved by more mature Learners; Honda Veradaro. Nice bike. But expensive. Physically large; its nice and comfy, especially for larger riders, and looks like a 'big-bike'. Down sides, are its not so ecconomical; its a tad more powerful, but not much faster; Size can make it bulky, and harder to manouver, while taller seat and higher centre of gravity mean its not SO easy to swing through test cones. Practically, doesn't push the compromises too far, as a learner commuter; except in area of costs. But again, more expensive, you pay more, but get more back. But not AS ecconomical on running costs as a YBR, so cost of ownership likely to be higher; while Honda spares and lots of plastic; any repairs likely to be expensive.

Going Daft; Aprillia RS125. One of the most expensive LEarner Legals on the market. Actually on DSA approval list with warnings that demand examiner must see 'valid' proof of restriction before letting you sit test on one; becouse they are a highly strung 28bhp race bike with lights. Physically large, they look like a bigger bike, and unrestricted they go like one. Bludy expensive to run though; 70mpg is 'good' going, and you have to chuck 15p's worth of high grade two stroke oil in the oil reservoir for every £1.35liter of petrol! Race crouch riding possition isn't so comfortable; restricts visibility and makes observations, and making clear obviouse Examiner approved observations harder work. Great brakes for e-stop, but horendouse steering lock for cone work, and riding possition that doesn't give best control. We then get to the matter of running costs and pistons listed as service spares. They demand a lot of maintenence; new they are expensive; and looked after to the service schedule effoff expensive. "nd hand; thrashed by a few no-little kiddie-go-kwick owners, often struggling to keep up with the HP installments, and more interested in spending money to go faster, rather than not break down; they get even MORE expensive to run, ignoring that service schedule, becouse costs are too high for so many owners to bear. Probably one of the worst learner bikes you can get; pushing the compromises SO far to get style and an idea of 'performance'.

Yamaha XT125. Dirt bike. Four stroke single cylinder engine, its a YBR on stilts and knoblies. Compromised for off-road work, and on-road work its never going to be master of either. Not bad, and off-road riding can be fun. But bending bikes falling off on dirt (they DO bend; another thing 25 years trials riding has tought me!) dents budget, and doesn't bode well for a 'smart' bike to turn up to test on! Nible geometry makes them easier than many to hustle through cones; but that advantage hedged by higher CofG making it mnore precariouse; and knobly tyres and soft suspension making it less sure footed; most on manouveres like the e-stop. Pretty robust in low speed 'spill' though. Again, compormise is being skewed, and both performance and easy riding being compromised for style and off-road ability.

Honda Shaddow; Cruiser; a little Harley. Lots of style; and lots of money. New they are over four grand. Look big to people that dont know any better; and look 'cool' to misguided cruiser fans. But little 125cc engine they DONT 'cruise' engine that takes three gear changes to get to 30mph does not suggest a 'lazy' easy ride a cruiser ought to be. The added weight they carry makes them slow, and hard work to manouver; and the lazy chopperesque riding possition and steering geometry and long wheel base REALLY make them hard work to get through cones, do U turns and generall do whats needed for lessons and test.

Could carry on down the list; but you get the idea; moving away from the regulation 'learner-coimmuter' you are frequently loosing more than you gain, or paying through the nose for it, or both!

The old CG125 is worth mention; now a 'Cult' bike, the 'decent' £300 CG, is a long lost myth. With the reputation of being bullet-proof or nie on indestructable; too many have become victims of thier own reputation; bought as cheap learner-commuter wheels, with 'low maintenence' becoming 'no-maintenence' owners loath to spend money on a bike they dont intend to keep,m and only bought because it was cheap. Decent ones now fetch particularly 'daft' money for what they are, on the legacy of the reputation; and you can spend as much on a half tidy CG as a much newer and probably more useful YBR. Down in the bargain basement; they are flogging scrappers for the money that would get you road worthy (if not 'nice) wheels of other make or model.

Yamaha YZF R125; the latest four stroke Kiddie Go Kwik, must have teenage loonie bike; Few on the second hand market becouse they are so new; Still close to £5K show-room price. All looks not much performance. Compromised like an Aprillia for rideability, without the boon of cheap power doubling de-restriction. Bit easier on consumeables though; but already seen bikes out there 'written off' for a low speed spill just cracking the fairlings! All for the price of a Suzuki SV650!

Honda's CBR125, by comparison makesa a lot more sense if you want that 'kind' of style. Its not the full monty, and CBR doesn't make much pretense at being more than a lamb in toys r us wolf-cub outfit. Not as compromised for rideability, but still 'some'. Easier on spares and service, but still more expensive than pure commuters; but does offer a couple of extra mph. And costs CAN be 'not so bad' rated against learner commuters; they are another variation on the compromise, and not skewing it so far, not prove too hard a one to bear, but its still a compromise.

So into the bargain basement; Mentioned CG's. But loads of different 'stuff' in there. And most of it, I would find hard to reccomend to a complete newbie, simply becouse so little is in useful, reliable, confidence inspiring condition. There are some machines worth thought though.

Chinese bike-in-a-box; £900 new, they are dirt cheap second hand; usually with good reason; they have fallen to bits! BUT, if you have some idea how to tighten bolts, adjust bearings and dont mind getting your hands a bit dirty; or even masocistically enjoy it (like me!), for £3-400 picking a bike thats managed to get through at least one MOT, and you can ride value out of it, as long as you dont expect the full performance of Jap branded bikes, can buck the odds and prove cheap long term commuter wheels.

If you JUST want a bike to get experience on, possibly do some training; you dont want to use it for tests; hiring a school bike, possibly a DAS bike; then the sub 120cc machines can be very useful.

The old 80's Two-Stroke 100's were great little bikes; Until early 90's you could take tests on them, but rule change means that for last twenty years if you want full A-Group you have to test on full size 125. But when they were testable; they offered almost the performance of full 125's and a lower insurance group, and frequently lower running costs. Still offer that; BUT like the CG, bought as budget learners, often didn't get the maintenence they deserved. Have thier fans now though, and again, if you know a rubber band from a power band and spannies from spandex and dont mind getting your hads dirty or enjoy it; they can be bought for reletive penies, and prove easy mechanics and a lot of fun.

Its in my sig-line; Honda CB125 'Super-Dream'; ought to mention it. Probably the most thoroughly considered; best engineered, most sophisticated; most capable, 'Do everything' Learner 125 ever made... it was concieved as a sports-bike to go head to head with its two stroke rivals of the era on performance; and it succeeded. Concervatively styled, it was intended to still be comfy and give you a command riding possition like a commuter, with good balence control and visability, BUT still be comfy and comfy enough for long er runs, even touring..... it was a great bike.... but looked boring and it was over priced... and today, big grin factor for masocists like me to get one working like it should... I have done two this year... but GEEZ! Been a heck of a lot cheaper and easier to have just bought YBR's! Most out there are pretty dire; I know I own most of them!

Also in Sig line, Yamaha DT125. Its a legend. Mines a late 70's air cooled model. Actually more powerful than later water cooled bikes in restricted form. Mine is a classic. But they are all 'road bikes' with knoblies, more at home on tarmac than dirt, and main atraction is the reletively reliable, and easily tuned two stroke engine that can offer around 20bhp, and not blow up as often as things like Aprillias or Cagivas. Hold value well, and work pretty good for a dirt bike. BUT, compromised being a dirt bike, and the later ones especially are no where near as mechanically freindly as other options, while most will have suffered the tuning attempts of teenage tits over the years, and can be a 'challenge' to scrub up and make good!

YBR's aren't the be all and end all of Learner-Bikes, and I dont make the kind of comments people are want to, like they do about CG's, that they are tough as boot, or you cant go wrong with one.

They aren't indestructable; and you can buy a lemmon as easy as any other bike. BUT.... on the whole, they are a damn well balenced compromise, and almost perfectly optimised as a learner-commuter, and possibly the least risk, best value route into motorcycling...

But they are a washing machine; a tool for the job, and not hugely inspiring for anything BUT doing the job, and doing it cheaply.

Great if you have the money to buy into that bargain; and you are happy to make those short term sacrifices having somethiung so utterly utiliterian, for long term gains of making it cheap and easy to get licence before stepping up to something more exiting.

Otherwise; there are plenty of other alternatives; to suit budget and aspirations, that can work, or be made to work just as well for any one.

But the YBR DOES set the standard for them to meet....

Battery acts as charge reservoir; capacitor acts as charge damper.
Imagine a capacitor as a spring in a brake line; transmits the force but takes out any shock in the line; where a reservoir would accumulate pressure and let it be used for longer.

I have 6v electric Yamaha DT, and am messing around with a 12v pit bike regulator, to convert to 12v. Generator is supposed to chuck out enough volts, and using both coils, the charge circuit and direct lighting circuit, ought to provide enough amps to keep small 12v battery charged to power 12v lights without the low rev 'drop of' direct lights suffer, while 12v offers more compatability for modern upgrades like LED's to lower power demand and make more juice available; possibly even a PIR headlamp for more light without less amps still.

This may be possible on the CB125 single's generator.

Alternatively; sticking with 6v, knowing 6v systems of old, even with a battery low rev lamp dimming is a pain. Many bikes of the era ran 'direct lights' so they didn't get any top up from the battery so were entirely dependent on genny revs for volts; battery only powered occassional equipment like horn and indicators.

Using a 6v regulator, possibly from an early 6v CB200 Benley, and routing direct light circuit and charge circuit through it to charge a battery to power all equipment, including lights, would be a good move, and make electrics more reliable.

Another alternative, still being toyed with for the DT, is if the genny and pit-bike regulator dont prove good enough to convcert to 12v... going 12v 'low amp' conversion anyway, using LED bulbs for indicators, dash tell-tales, side, tail & stop lamp, and a solid state low consumption indicator flasher, and a 35W PIR headlamp, and running the system 'Total Loss', having two batteries; one on the bike, one on charge in the house!

Lights dont HAVE to be self sufficient....

On a 78 model bike; you also don't HAVE to have indicators, and need only have the brake lamp work of one brake lever.

Two types of battery commonly out there

Standard batteries are wet acid filled. They have to be mounted terminals to the top or the acid sloshes out through vents.

'Sealed' batteries are often wet acid filled, but unvented. These tend not to have the charge/discharge rating of vented batteries, and are not usually reccomended for bikes or cars. Competition bikes and cars often use Sealed 'Gel' batteries that have an acidic gelly (yes basically you make a jelly like you would for a trifle of kids birthday party, but with sulphuric acid rather than water! And fill the battery with it!) More stable, can be mounted in any orientation to suit, and wont slosh acid. But expensive.

For your wants, I would sugest that a sealed, preferably gel-cell battery, of the same or greater amp-hour capacity, would be more suitable. You can find a place to site it to convenience, and tilt it to suit. Meanwhile, need not be bigger than original; external dimensions can be smaller on modern batteries.

If you are not putting heavy charge or discharge rates on the battery; if you have currently a direct lighting system, battery charged by excess genny amps at a trickle to power indies and horn, you probably could get away with a 6v 'sealed' burglar alarm battery; these are fairly cheap on e-bay, but check Maplins for specs and dimensions; they are designed to hawve very long service lifes, typically around ten years, but with very low charge and discharge rates, sat in a box on the side of a house providing independent suply for a lamp and claxon if the alarm goies off and the mains supply is cut. They are commonly de-rated for consumer products; thier life expectancy shortened, exceeding the specified charge and discharge rates, for use in things like car battery 'booster' packs, or kids ride on toys and stuff; Charge rates exponentailly reduce battery life, so double the charge/discharge current, battery life drops by a quarter, BUT, you can go quite a long way before you are down to the one or two years 'life' of a conventional bike battery.

If you want least-fuzz, solution, keeping the electrics 'as standard' but able to put battery where you like; I think this is what I would suggest as most suitable; Burglar Alarm battery in the 3-5Ah capacity range your CB-J battery is likely to be in, probably barely any difference in price to the OE spec wet & vented battery.

Depends how adventurouse you want to get; BUT do have a think about going 12v. With low wattage LED's sucking milli-amps instead of amps, you can make a small capacity 12v battery last a long time, even if you run it 'total loss'; and you have far more scope to start choosing from far more 'standard' 12v equipment, thats often better and or cheaper than whats available in now rarely used 6v components.

The UK CB125TD- Super-Dream is de-tuned to the old 13.5bhp learner limit.
Unless it runs readily off the end of the speedo, it probably isn't making that due to normal wear & tear and neglect.
Well fettled UK 'Reduced Effect' models will top a genuine 70, and put the speedo needle well past the last tick at 80.

The 142cc big-bore kit is the largest piston size you can get into the standard 125 barel's liner. The extra 17cc is fuck all.

They can be bored bigger; other variants of the engine have been stretched by the factory as far as 233cc for the CM250 or CB-Two-Fifty. But not without machining the crank-cases to fit bigger liner barels.

Head is good enough to flow the air needed to make almost double the power of the Reduced Effect UK Super-Dream; so you cant really gain anything by trying to hack the ports bigger with a dremel; and the valves are about as big as can possibly be crammed in the combustion chamber as it stands.

What limits the power on them is the cam-shaft. And unfortunately, there aren't very many options here by way of after-market hop-up profiles. Best we have is the factory;s 'Full-Power' cam which, on a well built engine, and with properly set up and sized carbs can, on the 125 bottom end achieve 17bhp. However these cams are rarer than rocking horse do-dah. The correct carbs to go with them even rarer.

Can bore the thing as far as you like, really, even the whole hog, bored and stroked to 233cc, you wont easily better the power JUST that camshaft offers.

The biggest 'family' engine using the CB125's 41mm stroke, was the over-square screamer CB200 motor, whose barrels are inconveniently incompatible with the 125 bottom end, and which only just made same power as full-power 125.

The most powerful of the 233 engines was the CMX Rebel, that I think was rated at about 21bhp, running paired CV carbs, on a 360 bottom end. CB-two-fifty chucked out about 19 depending on who you ask, on a single carb, but crank-cases opened up, to take bigger barrels, long stroke 360 crank, these engines dont offer solutions to tune a 125 super-dream as micing bits between 360 crank and 180 crank engines will result in mashed valves the cam opening valves on an up-stroke when crank ought to be doing a down stroke.

So.... 142cc? For a tenner, it ent going to hurt; but any more power you may get is going to be mostly from new piston & rings and rebuild finding more compression, not the extra cubes!

But for a tenner?

Had three barel sets in the last twelve months and done as many rebuilds. I didn't bother with the 142 kit. Keeping the stock bore size keeps things a known quantity, and saves a few penies.

Budget around £200 minimum, for gaskets, cam-chain & barel kit. You are advised to swap case seals too. And worthwhile new cam-chain tensioner blades. While you have it apart you can get seriouse and start spending seriouse money; roughlt £200 to get crank presed apart and re-assembled with new bearings and then re-balenced. Then theres the oil pump, clutch (worth douing, new plates & springs less than £20), gearbox bearings, etc. All mounts up, and if you skimp 'too' much you as like have to do it all again!

TBH with that list you are on a break-point.

Its not worth £300 as a dire runner, though you might get it, if you are lucky. If it has tax and test, its worth £250 to a nieve optimist (or a not so nieve, but ever hopeful dissolusionist optimist, like me!)

Top end rebuild it, you WILL be spending £120, and its a bastard if they go together nice and easy... because if it goes together easy, means cam-chain is stretched and it WILL snap!

Add £50 for decent second hand exhaust, you are up to £200 region.

Value bike at £250 and you are nudging over the £400 'value' and you still haven't sorted tyres, or the bottom end, or I suspect a host of other bits its likely to need sorting, like brakes and steering bearings and fork-seals.

These things are worth around £750 top book, for a 'good' example.

You can get Taxed, Tested Runners for around £500... though possibly not THAT much better than what you have.

SO... chucking the sort of meney this bikes likely to 'need' chucking at it to make it 'reliable'...

Will you get the value out of it, becouse you are going to HAVE to get the value out of it by using it, you are unlikely to get it selling...

Skimp to keep it serviceable and make it up to scratch, yes, £200-£250, you are just about on tipping point.

If you want to do it justice and get reliability, you are looking more like £500 order to get that bottom end tended to and new cam-chain in there.

Either way, head will need stripping; guides, & valves checking. Valve stem seals renewing; valves ground; & valve seats ground.

Now I wouldn't necesserily be put off by all this; but I know the bikes, and have heap of ready spares. And my threshold would be £250 buy price + £500 'work' = top book bike... I might just break even on, and get some proffit in the use and playing with it.

NOW: bikes come and go and with 55 weeks to no more testing for full A licence on a 125..... I would be looking on any £500 I might scrape together to fix bike very hard and pondering.

£121.50 is the test-fees. £65 per session to hire a school bike to do them.

Flogging the Super-Dream as a scrapper/project would cover that.

Leaving you in hand by repair costs, to go look for something elce, that, need not be a 125.

I bought my CB750 T&T'd for six months for only £450; if you dont look glamourouse there are a lot of big bikes out there for that kind of money; and, yes, I agree they may not be any better than your Super-Dream, but you are in the bargain basement; and its beggers and choosers.

And ecconomically, unless you are very daft and or unlucky, you WOULD get a useable 'big-bike' with a bit more life in it than your 125 currently has, that IS more likely to prove more reliable than doing cheap-skate top end rebuild.

Super-Dream, if you want to percevere with it; you will have to do the job thoroughly; and do full engine build, even if you dont go too farf rebuilding cranks and stuff. Doing the rest of the bike, you will be looking at having to chuck in the order of £500+ to do engine, zorsts, tyres, and a few mechanical bits, like greasing rear suspension (If that needs overhaul, has any siezed links SCRAP, it really isn't worth fixing!) renewing steering bearings, reconditioning forks and possibly servicing brakes.

They are a fantastic Learner-Legal, and a very good budget commuter, BUT big investment to make one 'good' and only ecconomicval IF you run life out of it as people will not pay what these bikes are worth for a 'good' one, when they can for same money have brand new Chinky or second hand YBR.

From your extended list of works.... THINK HARD


I'm going to stick that one at the top of the list; I know you have put it at the bottom; you want reliable transport more; but...

£121.50 + £130 to hire a decent bike to do it on. You'd have to spend the £121.50 at some point anyway, if not on tests, repeat CBT, or testing for 125 only licence.

IF there's not enough money knocking about to get this bike how you want it; SHORT TERM, £130 for a School bike, is a lot more do-able, and gets that one OFF the books; clear.....

If that happened; would you STILL want a 125 commuter? Would you still want THIS 125 commuter?

Lets start by floating that idea?

£250... full licence....

Cutting losses, thats what you would get for the Super-Dream'...

Leaves you the £500 fix-fund to go look for a 33bhp restrict 'big-bike', and they are out there at that kind of money, and IF you want to fix up a bike, and a bike you are going to keep, then something like my CB750, may be more worthy a 'project'....

PONDER and tell me your thoughts on that...

Meanwhile; without burrying too deep into this ere Super-Dream.

WHY don't you want to take tests on it? You said exhausts...
You said it was running rough, but with shagged exhausts, would run rough.

COULD we get this bike scrubbed up to something a bit 'more' serviceable, without a major renovation?

I have big pile of ready spares; some of them not so 'wonderful', but serviceable.

IF we could get a replacement pip on the thing, and do some carb fiddling... do you think it could be made 'tidy' enough to do tests on?

If so... back to the top; tested; licence in your pocket, would you still want to chuck money and effort at it?

Tackling a Super-Dream 125, head on, and making something worth the effort; well, have a look at Snowies 'Top End' renovation blog on S&T... Build bill topped £2K and she has a borrowed engine at the moment; waiting on me finding funds and bits to build a top end, and tuned benley motor. Doing one that you would REALLY want to keep hold of, costs.

My Blog on the Corporal's renovation, is more doable. I did that one as an 'every-day' practical classic, and I tried (and failed) to bring it in for less than I sold it to Smiler (£750). With the advantage of that big pile of ready spares from the bikes I have broken. Realistically to 'do' a Super-Dream from a £250 'base', including an engine rebuild, you are looking at, £750-£1000, all in.

Your notional £500 budget to get your bike scrubbed up and make nice, is realistic, and you could do a lot; but you wont have a lot in the pot to pretty it up; that will just about tackle the main mechanicals, and ONLY if there are no 'biggies'. Biggies on these bikes:
1/ Engine
2/ Rear Suspension
3/ Front Brake

Rear suspension is £200+s worth if its utterly shot and needs major overhaul with new bushes and shock.

Front brake; its twin piston floating caliper. those two pistons double the overhaul cost, compared to most lightweights brakes. If you need to overhaul the master cylinder; replace the brake hose; replace the pistoins and seals; and pads, and disc,; this one sub-assembly alone CAN cost £200ish.

Engine; prices already mentioned; to 'do' the bare minimum from the cases up, £200 up.

Your budget, doesn't give you much room for niceties; like powder coating the frame, or nicely painting the shiney bits, or making it look 'factory' with decals.

You have all the pottentials I had with the Corporal, and the known starts that above what I did with the Corporal, you need tyres; £60 for hard cheapo's; £90 for nice grippy M45's. And exhaust. I had to find exhaust on the Corp, but uncosted; I took it off one of the scrappers. Front brake I wasn't happy with; again, I circumvented that with bits from a scrapper, and I was 'lucky' with the rear suspension; it coming up with clean and grease and again, shocker from a scrapper.....

THAT is what you are faced with. So back to break-point.

IF you want a CB125 Super-Dream, you have built, with all the satisfaction that offers, and rides really nicely, like they should, and is a joy to own, AND looks good, and LOOKS like its worth all the money and effort.... you are going to have to up the budget, to do some of the niceties, AND cover any maledies like brake or suspension...

So... to do your bike justice.... with a full licence in your pocket....

Is your Super-Dream, worth £1200 to YOU?

I can tell you now, that it wont be worth that to very many people who actually have that money, if you sold it, no matter how 'nice' it was when done.

If so; then yoru £500 budget would get things moving, but realistically, its the old 'double the money' tripple the time' addage. Doing it justice, you need to be prepared to spend up to a grand, over what is sitting infront of you here and now.

And, plenty of scope, if you get carried away, for those costs to escalate, unless you hold the purse strings tightly;

You look at the frame and see add for powder coating £45. Do a quick reckon, and tally up big can of smoothrite and some thinners, plus a couple of brushes and conclude its 'only' and extra £20 for a 'forever' finish.... so, while you are at it, you chuck the swing arm, suspension drop links, head-lamp bracket, steering yokes, indicator brackets, bar clamps, and a few other odds and sods like the centre stand, the brake pedal... and your powder coating bill, goes from £45 for just a frame, to £145, for everything else you COULD have painted out of that £15 can of smoothrite....

You look at second hand exhausts, and ponder similarly, when T-Shock pipes are only £50 a side, and again, brand new pipes; twice the price but more than twice the life.... but your £40 second hand exhuats suddenly becomes a £130, when you get the correct 'pattern' replacements for a super-dream.... but hey-ho, at least they are as shiney as the paint and decals, that has gone from 'a couple of £8 Halfords Rattle-Cans, to two £8 cans of primer, one £10 can of hi-build, two cans of £12 colour coat, two cans of £10 clear coat; one can of £15 petrol-proof laquer, AND £30's worth of vynal decals.....

And YES, 'Done' it ought to be a really nice bike to ride; something a lot more 'special' than a three year old YBR125 that costs the same money, and ought to have a lot more life in it; and be rather more exiting to ride than that or a CG125.....

But it will only be worth the money, let alone the effort to YOU.

It will NOT be a bargain; you will not make money on it; you WILL get a nice bike..... BUT, being realistic, you HAVE to be sure that you will get two to three years use out of it, to get any real value back from it all, before the sell price you might get isn't so gauling. And realistically, it needs to be a bike that when you do decide you want to move up; gets stuck in the garage as a souvineer of your efforts, and early exploits, you can afford to litterally 'write off' and not need to justify against travel.

I cant tell you what to do, and I have laid it out pretty hard, and made it look a non-starter.

Its NOT a complete non-starter. I do these bikes for fun. I would not be put off. BUT I do have some advantages. One is that big pile of ready spares. Other is I have done a few bikes before, including a couple of Super-Dreams. And while the Corporal cost me more to renovate than I sold it for; it was 'within limits' and I had eight months use of the bike, and learned a lot about super-dream foibles in the process, and well... you win some, you loose some, and I have another five bikes to 'do'.

In your shoes; more risk of budget over-run and problem magnifiers; but also better chance you COULD get the value from any excess expendature from use.

BUT, we are up into three year old YBR territoty, you really need to think about the real 'worth' beyoind the numbers and whether its worth it to you, AND nieve optimism dampened IF you can deal with a project of this order.

Helicoiling spark-plug holes?

Remove the Cylinder head; take the head, on its own to an engine re conditioners; and see what they say. If they dont do many motorbike engines, they may refer you to some-one that does, becouse Super-Dream has small plugs, they may not have drill, taps and coils to do; BUT they will tell you who does.

Fall-Back; if you end up heding down to me to root through ready-spares; I have a very helpful engine reconditioners on my door-step; and if they cant do it; can probably find a replacement head in the pile of spares! (I have clocked a rather scruffy Micron 2-1 system, that's been plated and pin-hole puddle welded, in a couple of places, but is serviceable, and may be some use to you!)

CBT is compulsary basic training; it is not a 'test' but your first riding lesson.

Certificate of completion validates your 'provisional' licence entitlement; is the provided for you to LEARN, not scoot about for the next tow years thinking its the be all and end all.

Motorcycles are THE mjost dangerouse form of motorised transport on the roads, YET the only bludy vehicle we let complete newbies out on, unsupervised. before passing a competancy test.

JUST becouse the bike is small does NOT mean its any 'safer'...

It has two wheels and en engine that ought to be able to get it up to maximum allowable speed limits in this country, or at least pretty bludy close, and out-accelerate most family saloon cars and goods vehicles.

May be small, may be ridiculed, but they are propper motorcycles.

Meanwhile, the light weight; great for making learning easy, becouse its more manageable when you are still a bit wobbly and getting the balence; also doesn't damp any clumsiness in your control inputs so they show up your mistakes and help you correct them and get smooth, fairly easily.

But, they take more effort to ride, needing more work from you due to having so little power, and less weight means they are less inherently stable.

Great for learning, which ought to be the objective.

125's are ecconomical, to a point. More sporty ones can actually be more expensive to run than big bikes. But 'sensible' commuter bikes up to about 500cc can offer some savings over an ecconomy car, and some over 125 commuters can actually be more ecconomical than 125's.

125's being learner legal are horendousely over priced. £800 will get you a tired Honda CG125, I personally wouldn't reccomend* or a ratty YBR125. Same money in the big bike world would buy you a pretty good GS500, half that, a pretty stunning CD200**.

Insurance on 125's; due to being the bikes crashed by learners, is heavily loaded too. My DT125 costs 50% more, a year to insure than my Honda 750, more 'humble' CB125, only £10 less than the 750!

125's tend to be owned by Learners. By defanitiuon, few have much experience or know how, either riding or looking after bikes. They are also of limited performance. AND they are lightweights; build down to a quality to keep prices reasonable and the weight sensible.

Consequently, they are NOT built to 'last' like a high mile, large capacity tourer, and demand a lot more frequent maintenance. Though usually it is fairly undemanding and inexpensive, but they still need it.

They are then bought and ridden by learners; who are shall we say less than 'delicate' with them; making clumpy gear changes, and being heavy handed on the brakes, and endlesly practicing for tests, accelerating away from junctions, braking up to round abouts, doing e-stops, and generally working the bikes hard... and frequently crashing them.... and thrashing them.... AND being just as delicate and sympathitic about the maintenence.

125's have a hard life. They cost a lot; because more people want them than have them for sale; and many of them, newbies remember, wouldn't know what to look at when buying one, or which bikes to walk away from.

And every-one wants a 'bargain'.

Trouble is, when you are learning; you want the best damn wheels under your bum you can get.

Last thing you need when you are a wobbly early rider, is a bike doing some wobling beneath you on its own account, becouse its suspension if clapped out, ot it's bearings buggered, or its frame not straight.

You'd never know whether any thing 'not right' was you, or the bike, or whether thats how things ought to be!

Decent wheels eliminate the variables; and let you get on with the business of learning to ride, and make it a lot more enjoyable.

Unfortunately £800 is only JUST above scraping the dregs of the barel. Benchmark for value for money is a three year old, first MOT fresh Yamaha YBR, that's just young enough to have some confidence its mechanically sound, but just old enough to have a realistic price tag (about £1500) and give you least cost of ownership, needing least maintenence & repairs, and having smallest depreciation.

We also haven't mentioned 'Kit'....

You NEED to be legal a propper motorcycle helmet. They start at around £30, but you buy by fit, not price. A hat that doesn't fit dont save your head, and one thats uncomfortable or mists up, can be worse than useless. Budget up to £150 for a 'decent' hat. If you can get one cheaper that's a good fit, and has decent visor & venting, treat saving as bonus.

Now look out the window. Its December.

You will want, a decent set of wet weathers, some decent riding boots, and some bludy good gloves.

Start with the gloves. Budget another £50-£80 for good gloves. Keep your hands warm so you can control the bike. Also save skin when you fall off. Dont skimp on them.

Boots? Cheapo's start from about £40, and go up to hundreds. £80 ought to get you something fairly warm and moderately water-proof.

Rest you can skimp on if you want. Army surplus stores, and industrial clothing shops can chuck up useful waterproof over torusers and jacket or 'containment suits', that may be cheaper than an all in one bike-suit, though likely to be billowy and baggy in teh wind.

Dedicated biker water-proof over suits tend to be in the £30-£80 region, and are worth the investment.

Under them you can bulk up for warmth and protection with layers; again Army surplus can be useful.

Dedicated biker wear; you are looking at maybe £80 up for textile or leather riding trousers, £100is up for a textile or leather riding jacket.

I advocate avoiding the 'Rhino' or 'akito' 'My First Riding Outfit' all for under £200, boots, trousers, jacket and gloves; especially leathers, even more so this time of year. Leather is niether warm nor water-proof, and its 'protection' is great on a race track, sliding for long distances accross uninterupted tarmac, but on the road, where a slide is likely to be halted pretty soon by something hard and unyeilding, practicality of textiles, is worth while trade off.

So... whats the Total? Realistically, you could easily blow half your £800 budget JUST getting kitted out in bike wear....

Have you factored this into your calculations? Its a big investment; especially if it turns out you cant stand the cold and the dark and the misery of winter riding!

And then there is that 'after CBT'. what beyond your ;first lesson'?

FORGET you can drive a car. Does NOT put you ahead of the game; does not mean you will be a 'safe' rider, and its 'just' getting used to a different vehicle.

As a CBT instructor I have tought FAR too many car drivers to let that presumption be made.

Yes, you have a familiarity with the roads; but almost certain you will also have a lot of bad habbits, and when you start riding a bike, you will almost definitely try reverting to 'driving' the motorbike, rather than riding it; and there are loads of car-driver habbits that you will have to break, to start 'riding', which can make it HARDER for you to learn, and be tought.

Approach it with an open mind. Do not believe you have any 'advantage' or you already know stuff. You WILL know stuff that is transferable; but use that knowledge when it rears as a heads up to enquire, and make comparisons and FIND the differences,

And; you have got a car licence. You wouldn't expect to be allowed to jump straight into a car and drive it, on your own, unsupervised after just the first lesson; and you already KNOW that you did MOST of your learning to drive AFTER you passed your test.

And you are clambering onto a vehicle with the soft-bit (you) on the outside. Helmets, gloves leathers do NOT make you safe.

They are the last line of defence; they dont stop you getting hurt; just limit how much it's going to hurt when all else has failed.

Primary protection; first line of defence, is hazard awareness. Spotting Danger and NOT GOING THERE!

Secondary Protection; Hazard avasion; SHIT! Just got myself into danger/Some-one just shoved me into danger... how do I get OUT of danger!? BRake, steer, accelerate, control the machine, DONT let the accident happen.

Tersiary protection: last l;ine of defence, all else has failed; you didn't spot the danger, couldn't get out of the danger... Oh FUCK this GONNA hurt.... hat, gloves, coat... all it will do is save SOME of that hurt.

We survive on our wits.... keeping these about is us THE most important safety aid we have; and it starts by making sound and informed decissions, and managing risks.

FACT; you stand three times the risk of crashing a motorcycle than you do a car.

FACT; if you crash a motorcycle you are three times more likely to be seriousely injured or killed.

FACT; as a LEARNER rider, you are at LEAST three times more likely to crash than a qualified rider, who is still probably three times more likely to crash than a rider with more than three years continiouse riding experience.

SO.... back to this idea of getting a bike and taking to the roads after JUST the first lesson?

Is that a great idea?

Training & tests. get OUT of that initial danger zone as SOON as you can. Not a lot else you can do apart from keeping your wits about you.

And; soon as you have a full licence; you can dump the bludy L-Plates, consider yourself a 'propper' biker, and door is open to all manner of machinary, to suit all maner of means and aspirations. Big Bikes, Small Bikes, Inbetween-Bikes; Seriouse Bikes, Silly-Bikes, expensive bikes, cheap bikes, WHATEVER.... choices abound, and it only gets better. But the licence is the key to all.

* CG125's: Note comments about How hard 125's live. CG has been out of serial production now for about 8 years, which is roughly the anticipated service life of a 125 commuter. They last longer, but service costs and demands tend to be high. CG's reputation is also that they are 'indestructable' or 'you cant go wrong with a CG'. They aren't and you can. The reputation has inflated prices significantly in recent years; while as they have ceased making any more, pool has been getting gradually smaller and into generally worse state. Bit problem with teh CG125 is that too many are the victim of thier own reputation; and 'llow maintenence' is read as NO maintenence; while, the idea you can buy one cheap, and flog it for what you paid for it, has been stretched to rediculouse levels, where people expect to buy them for a few hundred quid, and then sell them for MORE than they paid, to cover teh costs of all teh bodge repairs they have made when they have broken becouse they were old and clapped out to begin with, and they did no preventative maintenance. They are not a 'bad' bike, but these days, personally I would avoid.

** The Honda CD200Benley, is probably about the Cheapest wheels you can possibly get at the moment. They haven't made them since the early 90's or so, but many very well looked after examples survive and fetch pennies on the second hand market.
£400 can get you something very very tidy. They are a four stroke twin, of 198cc displacement. Tuned for ecconomy, they have only about 15bhp, barely more than a sporty 125. But they can better 125 ecconomy, the extra cc's giving them that bit more 'grunt' meaning they dont have to be thrashed so hard to go as fast.
Reason they are so cheap, is few want them. Any-one with a full licence needed to ride them; usually want much more performance for thier money. So they are cheap to buy, and very very cheap to insure. And as such, set a bench-mark for just how cheap, cheap biking can be. BUT you need a full licence.

Riding 125's; twenty years ago, I had Shoei lid; and was remarkeable how people would nod, THEN do a double take as they saw I was on a tiddler... bike was nicked and crashed a while later, and through seperate insurance claim; Uni digs from hell were burgled; I got household Ins to buy me a top of the range Shoei GRV GP replica, the Wayne Gardner paint distinctive and imedietly 'Expensive Hat'.... just got cash to fix stolen recovered bike, and slapped on a Power-Bronze twin headlamp full fairing, in place of the mish-mash of seperate bits Kawasaki fitted, which individually were responsible for it being deemed a 'total loss', and cheaper to replace them and the mangled lamp brackets and missing lamp with the Power-Bronze 'Dustbin'.... that made it look rather like a contemprary GSXR! (not intensional in any way; just worked out like that!)

Now, I'm not a safety jockey; I dont always ride in full leathers, nor even a full face helmet; and I do find it amusing, how I get ignored or nodded, depending on whether the bike I'm on has L-Plates and what I'm wearing, and by who!

Honda CB125...

Leave the L-Plates on becouse I'm, fault finding for Snowie, and probably in overalls and an open face, NO-ONE aknowledges me if they can avoid it....

Though, I did ONCE get a BIG thumbs up from a ZX6 pilot, becouse, when I took hand off the bars to remove fag from my mouth and flick the ash.....

Swap open face for full face and my overalls for jeans & BLJ... I get the odd nod...... and even the occassional one from cruiser riders.... though more often if I'm in Jeans & BLJ with open face.....

Chuck the full leathers on, becouse its cold...... suddenly sportsbike riders start aknowledging me.

I merely find it amusing; I dont wave.... hands are usually best kept on the bars (except when flicking fag ash... which is a safety measure, not good to get hot ash in your eye!); but do nod or flash.

But, intreguing to know, that unless I 'instantly' look like YOUR kind of biker, by way of what I am wearing / riding...... probably wont get the time of day from you......

Ent the net great? Becouse here, you cant see what I am wearing (Be thankful for small mercies!) or what I ride... YET we all talk and get along, and aknowledge each other, even offer 'respect' via the khama system, to people we probably WOULDN'T nod to on the road..... a curiouse little notion to consider.....

You are a Learner-Rider. Aproach it with a completely open mind, as though you DONT know a thing.... and when you find out you do, use it to ask pertinant and sensible questions.

PRESUMPTION is the Mother of all Fuck Ups....

Yes, there is quite a lot of transferable experience from cars to bikes, but bikes are very much more demanding to ride than cars are to drive; veiw from the controls a lot different, AND we are HUGELY more vulnerable and at risk!

Trouble with teaching existing car drivers to ride a bike, is often that you tell them what to do, but in one ear, out the other, and they revert to 'Driving' as though they were in a car!

Silly one for you; toght car drivers on CBT, they have done everything they have been told, listened, carefully, asked sensible questions and I have had no qualms making the cut to take them out on the road after lunch for road training...

WHERE... fifteen yards from the gates of the college, at the first T-Junction.... they FALL OVER!

Why?

Well on the play-ground riding round cones, its all completely new, and unfamiliar, and they respond and do; just as if they were being given a ski-lesson, or tought to fly a hang-glider with absolutely no preconseptions, presumptions or previouse experience impinging on it....

But, ride off the play-ground, out the gate and faced with a white give way line, and a 'familiar' situation.... they do exactly what they have ALWAYS done in such a situation.....

Stop... sit still, like they would in a car, and forget to put thier bludy foot down to prop themselves up!

SERIOUSELY, it can be THAT bludy stoooopid!

Lots of other things car drivers do; they are far more 'mirror dependant' than we can be on bikes, and they tend NOT to use thier mirrors or do observations anywhere near as frequently as you need to on a bike.

This is another common previouse driver fault; they dont LOOK, they dont do the observations we need to on a bike, actually moving our heads and physically looking over our shoulders, and instead, automatically look for find and glance in the mirror, and no where near as often.

They also seem to ALWAYS forget to cancell thier indicators, becouse in cars auto-cancelling does it for them...

And very frustrating as an instructor riding along, following a student and the entire LESSON, you are constantly telling them the SAME THINGS over the radio.... "MOVE YOUR HEAD", "Cancel your Blinkers"... and they KNOW what they are doing 'wrong' and what they need to remember; its just that they are so USED to doing things the way they would in a car, instinct and engrained reactions take over.

'Doing DAS'.... this is a big problem. You get a couple of days on a bike, with a wally like me, nannying you around the roads, breathing false confidence into your ear constantly REMINDING you of these silly things you have forgotten, while you 'practice' for tests.

You are paying, a HUGE amount of money on a typical DAS course for NO MORE than the instructor being there, fullfilling the requirement to provide Radio Supervision to let you be on a 'big-bike; with L-Plates, and trying to drill these faults out of you by 'rote'.

Stuff thats actually 'useful', the real telling you what you need to do; one to one instruction.... you get very little of.

Training conventionally, on your own 125; you do CBT, get a bike, wobble about on it, try not to fall off, and learn pretty much by your own mistakes until you feel confident enough to take tests, is similarly frought; you learn only what DOESN'T work, and you dont get fed anything to help you do anything different, and possibly better, and its learning the hard and often painful way.

One of the best ways to learn is on your own 125, though; with weekly lessons.

Do CBT, go away, practice, come back. Get an hour or two of an instructor telling you what you are doing wrong, what you are doing right; giving you tips, and then sending you home, for a week to practice as MUCH as you like, on your own.

For the same number of paid for hours of training; FAR more of it is actually giving you USEFUL preparation to ride a bike; and you are NOT paying some-one to nanny you, and merely fullfil legal requirement to let you be on the road while you practice.

Intensive DAS courses, danger is, that so much information, provided in so short a space of time, you WONT get as 'much' useful know-how from it; and half of what you do get will be forgotten just as quick, and of what remains with so little real saddle time to give it meaning, it wont make much sense.

Consequently; a lot of the focus of training on an intensive DAS is on drillin out by 'rote' silly mistakes like observations & cancelling indicators, and providing 'Test-Tricks' to put on a performance for the examiner to get you a licence, RATHER than giving you good useful tools to be a decent, safe competant rider.

THEN leaves you out on your own for the very first time, WITHOUT that voice in your ear picking up on anything you might do wrong... on a pretty large and powerful machine that COULD get you into a lot of trouble very quickly.....

EITHER, thinking becouse you have done the course and passed the test, and 'know it all' until falling off proves otherwise... OR you are left suddenly bereft of support, with a jumble of confused ideas about what you were tought, and no guiding voice in your ear, thinking "Shit! WHAT DO I DO!"

THAT is the 'Danger' of DAS, or specifically intensive DAS courses.

DAS does NOT mean that you HAVE to do an intensive three, four or five day course.

ALL DAS is is the provisions in the test scheme for you to:-
1/ ride a 'big-bike' on L-s under radio supervision of qualified instructor.
2/ take the motorcycle tests on such a 'big-bike'
3/ and if passing tests be awarded full unrestricted A-Group licence without probationary restrictions of any sort.

[Ste]

Thats ALL it is; its NOT a course. I could ride my 750 to the test centre, with you on the pillion; slap L-Plates on the thing, and give you a letter saying that you had my permission to ride it; to show the examiner along with your cars insurance cert that says "And Any other Vehicle with owners Concent" so that you are insured to ride the thing, and you could Do your test on it and if you passed ride the fucker home!

You do NOT have to do a DAS course, you do NOT have to do an intensive DAS course.

IF you want a 'good' grounding for riding bikes; then I WOULD seriousely reccomend looking to get a 125 to use purely as a learning excersize.

Doing weekly lessons after CBT on your own 125, as said, you get BEST 'value' from the paid for instruction, and you can practice to your hearts content between times.

Riding unsupervised, you WONT get so ear-peace dependant, and will build confidence a LOT quicker.

AND you will, 'engraine' riding habbits to instinct the same as you have almost certainly done driving a car, and be FAR less likely to make or continue to make those silly car-driver reversions, like forgetting obs, or cancelling blinkers.

You'll also catch yourself out, doing 'life saver'; shoulder checks in teh car, and having any rear seat passengers wondering why you are turning around to look at them before changing lanes on the motorway..... but Hey, thats just bonus, you almost certainly take more from bike riding away that will make you a better car driver, IF only from the amount of observation you will do, and the more you will actually consider of what you see!

So, training on your own 125; costs are always uncertain, BUT training in this way; you will tend to get much better grounding and be much better prepared as a rider, and typically, six, eight, twelve weeks? all you ought to need to get to, and pass test standard and get a licence in your pocket for it.

You can then sell on the 125, and all in; costs of getting to that point; can be similar to doing an intensive DAS course. All circumstance dependant; but buying a bike and selling on, taking some depreciation and the running costs of that bike, including the insurance; hard to say whether overall it will be more or less expensive than doing a DAs straight off.

What is pretty sure is that for the same money you will get a much better preparation for post test riding; AND if you struggle, or dont pass tests straight off, it will almost certainly prove cheaper than DAS courses, where you pay a premium for a school booked test slot, both tests 'ahead booked' so the date and time of Mod 1 and Mod 2 fall in the course time; where if you fail Mod 1, you have a three day wait before you can re-apply for a new date, and will LOOSE the Mod 2 slot and the test fee.

Even just having to pay for repeat test fees; at around £125 a pair booked through the course, rather than individually for £15.50 for a Mod 1 Slot and £75 for a Mod 2, it can be expensive to fuck up. IF as many schools do, the tests are bundled in the course cost, and you have to pay for an entire new course, then it can get VERY fucking expensive....

So have a think, I'm not telling you what to do, I'm JUST explaining the options and telling you that you DO have options.

BTW... weekly training on a 125 would again NOT preclude you testing under DAS for an unrestricted licence.

As said, under DAS I could 2up you to test on my 750 and let you get on with it; no need for you to use a school.

Schools can be useful though, and if you train on a 125, If you want, nothing stopping you poay a few extra quid to do a DAS conversion lesson, for maybe an extra £20 to try out the big bike; then fork out maybe £70 for a 'Prep & Test' session; instructor supervising & coaching you on the trip to the test centre to use the school DAS bike for the test.

Doing the test on your OWN 125 though; has the advantage you may be more familiar and comfortable on it;l and it can save you pennies, and you dont need an instructor to nanny you to test centre.

Test on your own 125, you STILL get a full A-Group licence, and you DONT have to take any more tests after.

ONLY impediment with testing on a 125 is that doing so, you get a two year power probation. Means you can still ride any capacity bike you like, BUT it has to have an engine that makes no more than 33bhp or be restricted so it cant.

JUSt becouse you are over 21 DOES NOT mean you HAVE to do DAS, and the restricted licence is NOT a waste of time, or any less of a licence than what you get for doing DAS and DONT let any Riding school try and 'sell' you an expensive intensive DAS scheme on that kind of bull-shit!

33bhp is an awkward power limit; and does restrict the bikes you could jump straight onto that are naturally 33bhp complient.

But plenty of machines, are easily and cheaply restricted... and again DONT believe the bollox that you have to have a certificate of restriction and that they cost £200 and shit like that.

Ultimately; law merely says that it is up to YOU to ensure that the bike you ride is in accordance with your licence entitlement, and no more. How you do it is up to you.

What insurance companies may or may not ask for is entirely different matter; but again, there is no LEGAL obligation for you to have some kind of restriction certificate, and nothing stoppng you going to an insurance company that dont ask for one.

33bhp? Its not a lot, but its good enough to get a motorcycle up to over 100mph, and frequently do so faster than even pretty quick cars, thanks to the high power to weight ratio.

It IS enough to have a lot of fun with, and plenty for an early rider newby, it does NOT need to be a major impediment to enjoying your riding.

And after two years; restriction automatically drops off, and you can have any bike you like, just as if you had passed under DAS rules.

So, onto suitable bikes; for a newbie; either straight off DAS or stepping up from a 125, its NOT about size, its about 'Nature'.

As said, a 33bhp bike is good enough to break tripple figure speeds and get there plenty fast enough to scare most car drivers.

A 60bhp bike will normally break the two-mile a minute mark, and provide pretty lairy acceleration to it, compared to a car.

I have a CB750, its a 75bhp 'street-bike'. Its old, built in 1993, and its design is even older, having an engine taken from the 1984 CBx750 and DE-TUNED by 20bhp down to the 75bhp it has, and put in a chassis of even older 'twin-shock' technology, dating back to the 1960's & 70's. It is a LONG way from a cutting edge modern sports bike!

But, it will run very very eagerly to 125mph, and it will out accelerate all but the most spirited 'fast-cars' on its way there; and for me, and experienced rider, it still has more than enough capability to chuck around in the twisties and ride round numpties on the latest hot-snot sport-600's.

It is, by modern perceptions a 'boring' motorcyle, but I can tell you that even THAT is more than enough to be pretty bludy exiting!

And out the crate; they are quite a good 'newbie' bike. They are soft and forgiving, and give you a lot of feed-back about what you are doing, right OR wrong, that will help you develop your skills as a new rider, and in providing that feed-back and warning when you are doing stuff wrong, give you the 'clues' that will help you know WHEN to back off, and can keep you safe.

More focused, more competant bikes, will NOT give you the same sensations or feed-back, and will let you ride into danger not KNOWING how close to the edge you are.

Straight off DAS, a bike like the old CB750, reasonable enough starting point as any; and a bike you need NOT grow out of. I like mine. Its not THE most capable bike in the worlds, but in allround capability, to go have fun in the twisty lanes, tackle motorway blasts, load up with pillion or luggage and spend long hours in teh saddle; an awful lot of 'biking' for not a lot of money!

Mine cost me less than £500 in slightly shabby state; about a grand, to make it the way I like, not far off what I could have paid for something pretty tidy show room standard. And it costs me £80 a year to insure, against £120 a year for the CB125 or £150 for the DT125!

Bandit, is a similar bike; 150cc smaller and unfortunately in the popular and slightly more highly loaded 600 insurance group, and while not such a bad choice, personally I think that its slightly more highly tuned motor makes it a bit more tiring to ride and can urge a newbie to try too hard, wanting to get at the power and use the revs. But small gripe/

Plenty of other alternatives, including the JX600 Diversion; though TBH I would as easily reccomend a 'sensible DAS newbie the 900 version.

But I normally reccomend the commuter twins as the first big bike; whether on 33bhpo restricted licence, or straight off DAS, they are a very useful stepping stone.

Two cyclinders, they are, if needed more cheaply and easily restricted. Less refined twin pot motor tends to give more clues what its doing, and runs out of breath at the top end if you thrash it, where the fours will often rev eagerly to higher rmp, and encourage you to exploit the power they have up there.

Slighly less 'capable' than the 'fours' they offer a load more of this 'feed-back' and will generally offer a lot of learning for the small performance sacrifice, and give you a lot of opportunity to get into trouble... just not QUITE so blisteringly quick!

My VF1000, by modern standards, a bike that is not very powerful and is hugely over weight, would accelerate from 50 to 80 in less than two seconds. Damn thing could drop the quarter mile from a stand still, in under 11seconds with a terminal velocity of about 135, in the road tests. But in the intermediete roll ons, thiong could be lethal. Even with umpety years experience behind me, filtering onto motorway slips, or coming off roundabouts, that 'half second glance' over my shoulder to check gaps, and I coule be piking into the back of a truck doing 60mph, doing near twice that speed!

CB750, again, NOT a hugely powerful bike by modern standards, still runs similar risk, but, more likely to only be getting a tad close at about 90!

Commuter twin, A Suzuki GS500; Kawasaki ER5, or GPz500s; Honda CB500 or Suzuki SV650...

SV is a 75bhp bike, as stock; modern perception is its a bit 'wet' compared to 'real' sportsbikes, but lighter and more nimble than my 750,m still a bike that will see you touching silly speeds a tad TOO easily, at least in full power form. Others are all parallel twins. GPz500s is probably the most powerful and sporty of them, with about 60bhp, and a close second for performance to an SV. Others are all more comuter orientated, and offer a bit either side of 50bhp, as standard.

This is 'enough' to cut your teeth on, and fast enough to give you an idea of the things I'm talking about, without being SO far out of the realms of performance envelope of other traffic as it will give you a mind warp trying to get your head round it.

And a few months, a year, maybe even two, on a bike like that, would be very good 'grounding' to let you get on anything more 'adventurtouse' and not be to awed by it.

You would also be able to apreciate whetever you got after a lot more, from the comparison, as well as get more from it, from teh experience gained on the twin.

And if you decide NOT to get a 125 and do weekly training, and dive in with an intensive DAS course, (often schools just dont offer the courses to make anything else a viable option) I would THOROUGHLY reccomend a bike like this be the limit of your initial aspirations; and imedietly post DAS, even though you have a licence, use a commuter twin, as a first bike, to 'learn' on, and get what you have missed in early riding doing it on a 125, and perhaps back your early riding with some 'refresher' lessons, and after maybe an advanced course, before looking at the big-fours.

Point is; lots of options; dont dive in; dont presume on anything from driving a car let alone what as a car driver you percieve to be a 'fast' car, aproach it with an open, and pragmatic mind set, and try and make the options available work the BEST they can for you.

Oh, and as one last thought for you..... 'Fast' is all reletive. Fast cars, can be pretty thrilling and a lot of fun, and 170mph from an exec saloon can seem pretty excerssive and very very fast.

By comparison, the 150mph you see stated as the top speed of a modern sports 600, might not seem all that fast; while the mere 105mph listed as the maximum velocity of a humble commuter twin is likely to be scoffed at, as less than a diesel people mover....

Thing is; that people mover will take an age to get over 90. CB500 wont exactly romp away to its top speed, but it will still get there a damn site faster than you expect.

And unlike cars, where you dont OFTEN get the road room to use what performance they offer; too much traffic, roads too tight and twisty and narrow. Bike's width and ability to filter. Its manouverability, and its speed of response means that the performance is DOES have, is available, and CAN be exploited an AWFUL lot more often.

But the buck stops when it goes wrong; fast car has four fat tyres, abs, traction control, and will do a lot to save you from doing something too daft to begin with, and protect you pretty well curtecty of crunple zones and ipact protectiuon ssystems, when it doesn't.

Bikes DONT... it's YOU, out there, in the breeze in DIRECT contact with the enviroment...

If you really enjoy your fast car, think long about it, becouse an AWFUL lot of drivers, after even a merely moderately fast bike, suddenly realise that the car, REALLY isnt't all THAT exiting, and it can KILL thier enthusiasm and enjoyement of them!

Its swings and roundabouts whichever way; 125's are very 'useful' as a training tool, in that if you DO have the right approach and use them as a training tool, you can, REASONABLY safely exploit the provision for unsupervised L-Plating to get best value training & early miles experience.

I agree that larger bikes can be a bit 'easier' to ride. Extra stability, more flexible power, more mass, will damp clumsy gear changes and resist nervouse steering input..

But bigger is a generalisation, and it doesn't always work; something like an R6 is barely any heavier than some 125's and WONT be easier to ride, becouse it doesn't have the weight associated with bigger bikes, or the stability, especially at slow speed.

125, actually being HARDER to ride, or at least more demanding, is a useful training tool to instill some basics.

Where something like a GS500 is heavy and soft, and stable, and has a nice tractable spread of power, so that you dont need to work the gear-box so hard, and with that tractible power, if you habg the change too long, you aren't so likely to fall out the power, and mass will keep the bike rolling and smooth it all out a bit for you and flatter your riding.

EN125 is no where NEAR as forgiving. Hang your change from 1st to 2nd too long, and by the time you have clogged it into 2nd, what little momuntum you had traveling at 1/3 the speed, and with half the mass, means you've stopped moving before you have the clutch back out!

Likewise with steering input; with less inherent stability, yanking the bars too hard, to fast, bike twitches and wobbles and lets yu KNOW that you are making an arse of it.

So if you can get the 'basics' cracked on a tiddler and make good swift, smooth 'progress'... WHEN you step up onto a 500, its a 'doddle'...

But if you only EVER ride the 500? you may never actually get such an inate 'feel' for the balence, and stepping from a bike like the GS that will flatter a less than great newbie, onto something more 'flighty', you have a 'hole' in your skillset, that you have NEVER had to develop such an inate delicate 'touch'.... but instead of trying to aquire it on a bike that is a bit nervouse becouse its small, light and under-powered.... your trying to 'learn' all over, on something that has actually be 'tuned' to be that nervouse.

On that basis, time on a tiddler is not a waste of time, especially right at the start.

Two years? Length of a CBT cert. I wouldn't say you need ALL that time on one. Maybe not. Just a bit more than the first 15 minutes of CBT Playground during an intensive DAS course!

Three months? All it 'needs' take to get a licence the 125 way, with weekly lessons, for a pretty solid 'foundation' and preparatory skill-set. 'reasonable' to my mind.

Only thing limiting you to a 125, is not passing the bike tests to get a full licence, like wot you had to do before you were allowed to drive a car.

125's are good for two things; passing tests, and IF you are as miserly minded as can be, beating bus-fare travel prices; though even then; if you are really deturmined to travel cheap, you'll go further for your money on a full licence, on a slightly bigger bike, not paying the 'Learner-Loading' on either a 'learner-licence' or learner legal bike.

Give you a hint here; with a full licence my CB750, a 120mph, 75bhp bike is £80 a year to insure. Even with a full licence, CB125 costs £110.

CBT is NOT a qualification, its the 'first lesson' how to ride a bike, and that LEARNER LICENCE it validates is exactly that; so you can LEARN and practice for TESTS to get a full licence;

NOT so you can wobble around, without a clue, hoping not to kill yourself or any-one else, an unqualified hazard to all, for ever and a day, NOT getting up to grade and proving it, and getting the licence that's the 'key' to basically anything you want from biking.

125 'Cruisers'?

They DONT WORK.

They may look like a little harley; but they are a complete and utter waste of time and money!

As a training & test tool, they are worse then hopless. Ergamonics of the riding possition DONT give you best control over the bike, which has 'chopper' geometry and balence that make it about as 'nimble' as an elephant in a discount store, when it comes to doing the kind of test excersises demanded by the modern tests.

Seriousely; I have put a Honda CBR1100RR Super-Blackbird, hyoer-sports bike, or an ST1100 Pan-European Maga-Tourer full dressed with barn door fairing and paniers through the CBT test cones with less 'effort' than the couple of 125 cruisers I have tried it on!

They really are barge like and NOT a great place to start your riding career, filling it with confidence!

As for on the road; well.... about the only thing that they have in common with propper cruisers, is they are 'slow'.

BUT, unlike propper crsuiers, which to my mind start at the 'baby' Yamaha Virago with its 535cc engine..... they dont go slow becouse of big, softly tuned engines that have low down grunt to waft you along with least effort.

No, they have the same buzzy little things as other little bikes, that need the nuts reving off them and three gear changes to get them to 30mph..... only lugging around an abundance of chrome and fenders, they take even LONGER to do it, because they tend to be heavier.

Paddling the gear-box, to make them move, and working hard to get them to go where you want, is to my mind completely the OPPOSITE of what a 'real' cruiser ought to be; relaxed, laind back stress free riding.....

And these things, for all the chrome, just do not do that.

All they do, is ask you to pay an awful lot more money, to get something that LOOKS like a Harley, to NOT do either what a cruiser should do, OR a Learner-Legal.....

And as an 'ecconomy' bike to get to and from on? Yeah, by dint of being slow that CAN be pretty frugal; but paying a premium to get that ecconomy you could get paying LESS for a regulation learner commuter, that does the same job better, makes NO SENSE what so ever to me.

AND if you USE a 125 for what its best at..... GETTING A LICENCE....

Then you can have something like a Virago 535, JUST as cheaply, that you DONT have to hustle through test cones, that DOES 'Cruise' and remarkably is actually likely to cost you LESS to run that a 'toy' cruiser' bought becouse it 'looks' like something bigger.... but fitted with an L-Plate just makes you look like any othet twit on an L-Plate, only a slightly more tittish one with poor taste and even less of a clue about biking!

And you wanted us to be 'gentle'?

Sorry.... not happening!

But damn sight softer on you bursting your bubble here and now, than letting you learn the hard way!

Get a regulation Learner-Commuter; get a licence with it; which is what the Learner licence is there for; THEN when you know something and have proved you can ride; go get whatever takes your fancy, and meets your needs, and if Cruisers still apeal; Yamaha 535 Virago is the defacto 'My First Cruiser' and hard to beat.

Meanwhile; here and now; Yamaha YBR125, is the defacto 'LEarner-Commuter' and again, is a pretty hard allround package to best.

Or go get your toy-harley, and a cut off, to play 'Sons of Anarchy'... and look to every other biker like the Milky-Bar kid does to John Wayne, as long as it has the L-Plates!

FIRST: caution. Beware the CG125, victim of its own reputation.
Idea 'you cant go wrong with a CG, indestructible, them is', is grossly exaggerated. They are tough little bikes, but they wear out like any other, and will still bend when crashed hard enough, and 'low maintenance' doesn't mean NO maintenance.
Too many out there, that are ridden into the ground, and badly bodged, people expect far too much from, put far too little into, and STILL expect silly money for.
NEXT: The CG125 is the original; but gazzillions of cheap Chinky copies out there. CG's are 'worth money' old Chinky copies are NOT.
Is it a genuine CG? With so many CG Copies floating about, easy enough to dress one up as a genuine Honda; or 'ring' one as a genuine honda. OR simply fix up a real Honda with mostly Chinky copy parts.

In addition to the 'usual' checks to make sure its not a stolen or smashed bike, you need to make for any bike.

That's my starting point for a CG, and on the whole, given that the pool of decent bikes is deteriorating, and the prices are actually holding strongly, to the point that at the moment; there are a lot 'safer' places to go look for 'cheap' 125, I tend to reccomend avoiding the model.

BUT; that one; as said, Snowie asked what I thought, and if it might be worth a punt for her lad.

So, £475, its priced to sell. It's not daftly over priced like so many, BUT reading the detail; its not taxed or tested, or ride away ready, so it oughtn't really be worth more than £300 as a 'fixer-upper'. Ad suggests its an easy fix; just needing a bit of 'cosmetic' work to get it through an MOT, and hints, that you could get it OTR 'cheaply'... well, £30 for an MOT, £25 for a V5, £16 for tax, and you have £75 JUST to tick the boxes to make it roadable, even if you dont have to spend a penny on it... Start adding a few quid for new keys or lock sets, and ACTUALLY it's not going to be THAT cheap, even if it doesn't have anything majorly needing attention, like the brakes overhauling, the chain & sprox replacing, headrace bearings renewing or fork-seals doing, or 'niggly' electrical issues that need sorting, in consequence of theft attempt or damage.

What can you get a 'good' CG for? That age, one in tidy standard condition, they do fetch a premium, and they get snapped up at £750 ready to ride, and seen people asking near a grand for ones that are not that great.

But gives some 'idea' pay the £475 ask price, plus delivery, because you cant ride it home, chuck realistically around £200 at it to make it road-able, and you have spend the same as would buy you something 'ready to ride'.... So big risk for small bargain.

Looks like it MIGHT be a genuine CG; has the right engine covers, has a reg no for a real Honda, but lack of log book, doesn't inspire confidence; Pete's DVLA check suggests that the log-book is 'suspended' as a Cat write off.... could be CAT-C that only needs an MOT to 'clear', BUT you would have to do the work and get it through an MOT first, before you could get the V5.... risky.

Take one Cat-A'd CG from a salvage yard, one cheap Chinese Fake-away, and attach engine cases, VIN plate and Number-Plate, and your £200 heap of junk suddenly becomes a desirable £500 bike....

My aprasisal is it's too expensive, and there's too much 'risk'. to be worth a seriouse punt.

I would want to see it in the metal, I would want to crawl all over it looking for 'tells', to gain confidence, looking for the hidden faults.

I might NOT walk away; but if it checked out; risk vs reward, scrubbed up nice, its only a £750 bike, and at that asking price there just isn't the 'margin' to make it worthwhile.

IF, inspection gave me more confidence; top dollar, its only worth £300, as it's sat, a 'Spares or Repairs' project without paperwork, and I would be offering a derisory £200, for the thing. Personally I wouldn't want to go over £250 for it.

And THAT is after asking the initial dum question; do you WANT a project? Can you DO a project? Lots of people nievely believe that they can fix bikes up easily and cheaply; but look at the workshop & show and tell for the reality! Projects take time; space, effort; and always cause SOME hassle. You NEED to know you have the tools and facilities to take one on; AND as importantly support of people around you who aren't going to give you grief the whole time, moaning about that pile of junk on the patio and the oily finger prints on the light switches!

If it's close; if you are clued up; if you are prepared for what getting it to road will entail; you have the money to cover the immedietly guessable costs; plus that to cover any unforeseen hassles; dont expect it to happen in a week; and are prepared to accept the risk that its likely to end up costing you as much or more than a bike you could buy ready to ride..... it MAY be worth persuing, IF you can get bloke to accept a more realistic offer, that gives you more 'margin'...... BUT you will be bidding against a lot of far more nieve and optimistic buyers who are likely to give him what he's asking, kidding themselves that THEY can get that thing 'on the road' for just £50.....

Right; 125's are good for two things;

Cheap bus fare beating wheels for the economy conciouse, two whom style & performance take second place to hard cash considerations.

Training & Test tools to be used to obtain a full licence & open the door to ANY capacity of bike, of any style or level of performance.

Given that 125's tend to be expensive to insure due to so many being ridden and crashed by high risk, Learners or early riders, and nicked by teenage scroats; and few return such spectacular mpg as many hope, and running costs of the more sporty or posey can, all up be higher than on a 'big-bike'...

the 'Bus-fare Beating' ecconomy of a 125, is often only there for those REALLY ardent to find it and accept the compromise of very limited performance & 'utiliterian' style...

NOW: - Lets break down your wants and needs here a little and see what we can do.

And I'm going to start with this idea of 'a little green-laning' now and then.

First of all, what do you know about Green-Laning? As you dont have a CBT yet, I'm going to guess you have never done it,. least wise on a bike.

Do you know how many miles of 'unsurfaced public right of way, with vehicular access' we actually have in this country?

I'll give you a clue; its measured in HUNDREDS of miles nationally, compared to a tarmac network measured in tens of thousands of miles. It ENT a lot; though some areas are better endowed than others.

Next; do you know how to FIND and status check lanes you can ride?

And do you know what to expect, if you tried?

I can tell you here and now; its FAR from non stop cross country riding, like living a Charlie & Ewan episode......

Most lanes in this country are now so well graded in the more 'used' districts they are no more interesting to ride than any surfaced country road with a spew of gravel on the top.

Others, are so short as you would have more fun trying to set up a grass track round your back lawn.

And most are hardly more interesting than a farm track.

The persuit entails hours pouring over maps and checking web-sites to FIND tracks you can ride, and trying to patch together some sort of route joining together as many as you can to make a days riding.

That day will then consist of possibly eight hours in the saddle; six and a half of them will be riding tar-top between trails..... an hour will be spend pouring over the maps and scouring hedgrows looking for the actual lane start..... and about forty five minutes MIGHT actually be decent dirt-riding.

Does this sound SO much 'fun' as to be worth the compromises, and 'costs' you want to put on this bike you want, for that 'occassional' bit of 'Green-Laning'?

Bike for the gig is a Yamaha DT125; its common enough to be easy to live with, and proven it's capability over the years.

For that 'capability' you will pay approximately 50% more on insurance than a 'mundane' commuter. The model of bike gets loaded, for being a high risk.

Bikes with knobly tyres carry a higher theft risk; even if you insure one Third Party Only to avoid the insurers having to accept that risk, the 'base' premium is still loaded by the overall model risk.

The DT is loaded higher still, because its a two-stroke, and more often tuned, more sporty, and often crashed.

My 15bhp/75mph DT125, the 'classic' air-cooled 1970's model, is actually MORE to insure than my 75bhp/125mph Honda CB750.....

It ALSO uses more fuel...... it does 'about' 60mpg and requires two stoke oil to be added to that at about an extra 6p/l of petrol..... And that DROPS when off-roading.

And 'good' as my DT is; as an off-roader its pretty crap. I have a Montesa Cota comp-trials bike; THAT is a propper off-roader. For the road, I have the CB750 and a CB125 for pottering about. And again, the DT isn't a patch on either on tarmac.

Its a jack of two trades, master of neither; FUN, but it's compromised wherever you take it, and an expensive indulgence for me, an experienced rider, who CAN make use of it, and by dint of age and experience not get raped on insurance, or have to sustain the running costs using it as every day sole means of transport.

So; lets go back; needs and wants.

What do you NEED this bike to do? Is it a Bus-fare-dodger, or training wheels, or is it a week-end toy?

On CBT... first priority is to get a licence and get rid of that self imposed impediment to getting a lot more biking for your budget.

On that score, an on-off road bike, and notions of going green-laning, are not particularly great.

Learners fall off; and bent bikes dont get you through tests very well.

On dirt; learners fall off more. Shit, I've been riding dirt thirty more years than I care to remember I STILL fall off!

But straightening the bikes half the fun for me; and I dont have to use the bike for anything else. I have enough of them I can shove it under a cover and sort it out as and when I can be bothered or can find the money, and use one of the others or the car in the mean time.

If you need that bike to be 'available' and in a presentable enough condition to not get an examiner cringing for a test apointment; going out to bend it before hand, probably not the best idea.

While, IF its only a passing notion for something you MIGHT, only do 'occassionally', and dont really know much about to begin with....

Is choosing a bike that is more expensive than you can afford or are prepared to pay, to buy, insure and run, ANd which is less than ideal for the other tasks you may have of it; like getting about commuting, getting some training in on, and doing some tests REALLY worth the compromise....

If pennies are important FORGET off-roading, its a bad idea. Get a CG125, or a YBR 125, cheap, regulation learner commuter, the tool for THAT job, use it for whats intended; get tests & full licence with it...

THEN with THAT in your pocket; door is open to loads more possibilities.

bikes over 125 can be cheaper to insure, and in the 126-400cc range can often be lower; in that bracket the 'loading' from something with knobly tyres CAN be a lot easier to bear.

Meanwhile, haing got your licence; you are released from having to 'preserve' the bike for training & tests, and you ought by this point to know a bit more; and green-laning MAY be worth sacrificing some stuff for.

BUT.... first thing is tests, and bottom line is you dont get owt for nowt, and if you want the 'fun' of an off roader on top of the value of a mundane commuter-learner... you got to pay for it. So up the anti and get it, or lower your expectations and aspirations and do with out the add-on.

From where I'm standing it REALLY isn't worth the extra, but depends how much you THINK its worth really, or what compromises you are prepared to make elsewhere....

Concentrate on ONE thing at a time, and the FIRST thing is getting your licence.

How do I get a Licence?

The most accurate source of information on this topic is probably to be found from; "Riding motorcycles and mopeds" on the UK 'Directgov' website. But it is often difficult to follow! What is offered here, is then for guidance.

There are two KINDS of UK Licence, a 'Provisional' Licence or 'Learner-Licence' and a 'Full' Licence.

Any-One 16 or over may hold a Provisional licence. (Each entitlement 'category' though has its own age eligibility. You may only really ride a moped at 16 years old. At 17 you may have either motorbike or car. You don't need to pass any tests, just fill in the forms and send some pass-port photo's and payment to DVLA and they send it back.

This is issued to allow you to 'Practice' for tests. Once you have passed a DSA Driving qualification, be it for a moped, a motorcycle, a car or a tractor even, you send off your test-pass certificate and are awarded a Full UK Driving licence. BUT it is ONLY a 'full' licence for THAT category of vehicle you have passed tests. It REMAINS a 'Provisional' licence for all categories you have NOT qualified for. (Ie: If you hold a Full licence, for a car, you shouldn't need to apply for another licence to ride a motorcycle!)

The Provisional Licence, however doesn't really let you drive or ride very much. Provided so you may 'practice' for tests, it imposes a lot of restrictions on where and when you may drive or ride. And the main one is that until you have passed the DSA Test, you may ONLY ride or drive while under supervision of qualified instructor.

There is but ONE exception to this, and that is for motorcyclists, who, due to legacy laws from the days when supervising a learner rider by radio was not practical, are allowed to ride either a moped, or a 'Restricted; Learner-Legal' motorcycle up to 125cc and 14.5bhp, whilst displaying L-Plates; but you must not carry passengers (pillions) nor use motorways. AND provisional Entitlement has to be 'Validated' by completing an approved CBT course and obtaining the completion certificate.

What is CBT?

CBT is Compulsory Basic Training. TRAINING, it is not, repeat, NOT a 'Test'. Simply means you have had the FIRST LESSON!

It is NOT a riding qualification; it doesn't mean you have 'earned' your 'learner-licence', it doesn't mean you are a competent rider, and it does NOT teach you 'everything' you may need to know to be able to pass the actual licence tests!

At the end of it, IF you have reached a 'satisfactory' (very low!) standard of competence throughout the course, you are awarded your DL196, or CBT (Completion) Certificate, that validates the provisional entitlement of your licence, that lets you START riding on the roads, unsupervised, on a 'Learner-Legal' Motorcycle, for up to two years.

I go into a lot more about CBT & what you do, and how it is organised, in Tell me more about CBT?, so keeping it brief, here. The Course is designed so that an average student ought to be able to complete the course in a day, and be able to start riding, RELATIVELY safely. (Though depending on how much you have to learn, and how long it takes to master the exercises, SOME students may have to come back for 'further' training. They do NOT 'fail' CBT, they merely do not 'complete' the course to satisfactory standard)

IT'S YOUR FIRST LESSON

As such, before you invest ANY money in a bike, or gear, or 'anything', its a very good way to have a go, and see if you actually LIKE riding a bike. It ISN'T something for every-one, and some people struggle, and decide after that biking really isn't for them. Though, MOST I have to say, usually leave their CBT fired with enthusiasm and even more eager than when they started.

IT'S NOT A TEST

So, you DO NOT have to practice for it; you do NOT have to do ANYTHING much before hand; just turn up and do, and if you have any questions; ASK THEM! That is what the course is for. It is your introduction to biking.

Its a Day-Out, doing a new thing. When you book, you ought to be given some advice on what you'll need. Some schools will provide pretty much everything; bike, helmet, gloves, water-proofs. Some even offer lunch! However, 'School' rider-wear is often not that err... 'nice'... and most people prefer to buy and bring their own 'kit' before hand. Again, I offer advice on this in Tell me more about CBT?, but potted version is talk to the school, ASK what you should bring. Probably, "Crash-Helmet, Gloves, Lunch, Common sense, and wear 'sensible' out-door clothing, and check the weather forecast before you dress!

CBT is to help you get a bit clued up, and we TRY and make it fun. So DON'T worry about it. Its just a day out, playing with motorbikes. Your first lesson; You don't NEED to know anything about them before you begin, and it WONT make you an expert in a day, but it will give you a good start.

DO I Have to Do CBT?

YES!

OK, actually, there are a few exceptions. BUT WHAT THE HECK! If you have to ask, then YES YOU DO!

Generally ANY new rider will have to complete a CBT course to gain their DL196 form, to validate the entitlement of their provisional licence to ride on the road.

If you check the Directgov website; there are some confusing exceptions and exemptions; some drivers have exemptions under what are known as 'Granddad-Rights' because they gained provisional entitlement before CBT was 'invented' (circa 1990 ISTR). There is a raft of convolutions around moped licences for car licence holders that get quite confusing too.

BUT, ultimately, if you want to ride a powered-two-wheeler.. that's instructor speak for a moped, motorbike or scooter, by the way, on the roads... JUST do the ruddy course!

If you DON'T by dint of one of these wonderful 'exemptions' ACTUALLY need the Certificate? Well, what the heck. Damn site better to have the form and NOT need it, than have to argue about it with some half clued up beurocrat that expects to see it!

Meanwhile JUST for the sake of; the course IS a good start, and it WILL teach you something, and that 'something' could just be the one thing that saves your life, OR points on your licence, OR a painful and or expensive accident!

I used to teach CBT courses, I ought to 'Know it all' you would hope! Well, I sat in on my Girlfreind's CBT course last year, and it wasn't SUCH a vital detail, but I picked up some hints and tips on motorcycle maintenance, an easier way to do something, and some suggestions about looking after my crash-helmet and avoiding 'glare' on the visor. We can ALL learn something new!

Its a VERY worth-While course, for ANY-ONE starting out riding a motorbike, or coming back to riding one after some years break.

So JUST 'do-It'!

I don't see the point in getting a licence; why should I bother?

The Provisional Licence Validated by CBT is NOT a 'Licence-to-Ride' its a 'learner's permit', a chance to get some practice so you can take the tests and get the 'Proper' Licence.

Every OTHER motorised road-user HAS to pass their tests BEFORE they are allowed on the road, unsupervised. Fact that motorcycles are the exception is actually rather bizarre, given that motorcycles are the mort dangerous form of motorised transport, and unsupervised L-Platers the MOST likely to crash!

The FULL Motorcycle Licence is your PASSPORT to ALL biking has to offer & ONCE you have it, you have it for LIFE!

Well, with the qualification, that during the first two years, under the new drivers act, you don't get it revoked, or after that, suspended by being an arse! Other than that; once you have the entitlement its ON your licence as long as you hold it. JOB DONE. And....

it is a FULL Licence, NOT a 'Big-Bike' Licence!

[Ste]

No-One is going to take it off you, if you don't go out and buy a bike over 200cc within six months of getting it or anything! You can ride a 'Small' bike on a Full-Licence same as you can a big one!

And, OK, you may have a hundred and one reasons NOT to think it's IMPORTANT enough to do as LONG as you can get out and ride a 125 on L-Plates without it, WHY bother? Just keep repeating CBT every two years.

I have heard EVERY single excuse for 'perpetual L-Plating' from perpetual L-Platers they can think of, and there is NO real valid reason for it. End of the day, boils down to Laziness, and ignorance. Or possibly JUST laziness, not being bothered to go find out the facts!

BUT, Lets hear a few of them out?

I only want a scooter to get to work. I don't want a big-bike. So why waste money on paying for tests?
I'm 18, I cant afford to insure a car, so I only want a bike, until I can afford to buy a car?
I only ride for fun, got an RS125 'full-power', and that's expensive enough to keep on the road; If I did tests I'd want an R6 or something, and I cant afford that, not for the miles I do!
I'm over 21, I cant afford to 'Do-DAS'

Yeah! an ALL to common attitude, amongst scooter riders. You buy a scooter because its CHEAP, so why spend money you DON'T have to! Tests cost money, and if you can get to work without them, why buy'em? Same with riding as a stop-gap until affording a car, and the more bizarre notion of a 'cheap' week-end 'Toy' bike. Almost all of them MONEY is a big part of the argument.

Well, IF you can afford to ride a bike, ANY bike, you can bludy well afford to take the sodding tests, mate!

The tests cost a mere £121.50 (as 2012) over and above CBT to let you wobble about an UNQUALIFIED hazard on the roads. Elsewhere I go into the costs of getting on the road, and if you can get a Learner-Legal Motorcycle, taxed, tested and road-worthy, afford to buy a helmet, insurance, and stick petrol in the ruddy thing, you will be doing damn well, to do so for under £1000. More realistically you will be looking at having to spend, £1500 - £2500 'all in'. £121.50 in THAT greater scheme of stuff is PEANUTS. And if you cant budget THAT right at the start, DON'T BOTHER even trying!

If you don't pass the bike tests within the first two years provided by your first CBT certificate? Well, you will have to repeat the CBT to extend your licence entitlement to carry on riding. THAT can be as expensive as simply doing the tests!

But WHY would you NOT take the tests? Either you are too lazy OR you don't think you are good enough to pass.

If you don't think you are good-enough to pass, WHAT THE FRIGG are you doing on the road?!?!?!?

Tests are there to set a basic level of competence, if you haven't got that, then you shouldn't be there. You are a DANGER to yourself and others!

Many DO seem to think that the tests are 'Very-Hard', but really, what they are asking you to show them is that you can ride around a few cones without falling over, and can ride on the road, in real traffic for forty minutes, not break any laws, or hurt any-one! If you are riding to and from work or college every day, you are PROBABLY already doing 90% of what they expect!

I only want a scooter to get to work. I don't want a big-bike. So why waste money on paying for tests?

See: I Only want a 'little' bike, It's not THAT dangerous, is it? Its NOT like I'm jumping straight on a loonie-big-bike!. You are not 'protected' in anyway, pretending to be a learner, riding a lightweight. Its JUST as dangerous, AND your economic argument's DO NOT hold water.

Repeating CBT every two years, is as expensive as doing the tests.

The Idea that a 'Learner-Legal' HAS to be 'Cheap' is also a fallacy. Yes they CAN return very good mpg, BUT; the actual bike is a LOT more expensive than it needs be JUST because it's learner legal. With a FULL licence you have access to the whole panoply of motorcycles, and where you will struggle to find a 'good' Learner-Legal for under £1000, you can get any number of VERY good bigger bikes for the same money.

BUT, for the super-tight economy-commuter, there is a very big 'bargain basement' of machines in the 'forgotten' capacity class from 150cc to 400cc; machines that often have hardly any more performance than a Learner-Legal, but only Full-Licence holders, most of whom having qualification to have a much more interesting machine, simply DON'T WANT!

These bikes, are often half the price or LESS than a similar 'Learner-Legal' machine, AND frequently an AWFUL lot less to insure. They cost no more to run, and frequently return as good mpg, sometimes even better.

So, idea that staying on L-Plates is saving you money is a fallacy. IF you wanted super-cheap wheels, the FULL-LICENCE, Is the pass-port NOT just to bigger, more powerful and more exiting motorcycles, but to ones that can save you EVEN more money.

I'm 18, I cant afford to insure a car, so I only want a bike, until I can afford to buy a car?

So TAKE the ruddy tests and EARN your road-space like any-one else then! As the Scooter-Commuter; you aren't saving any money wobbling about on L-Plates. Use some of that 'saving' you are making to get the ruddy tests! Its just LAZINESS not bothering, and laziness on a bike is NOT a good way to survive.

I'm over 21, I cant afford to 'Do-DAS'

So? Why do you THINK that because you're re over 21 you HAVE do 'Do-DAS'? MORE why do you think that to 'Do-DAS' you HAVE to spend some ridiculous amount of money on an 'Intensive DAS' Course?

This is shear ignorance. You DO NOT have to do a DAS course just because you are over 21. Go read the sections: What is 'DAS'? & Intensive DAS Courses' What's the score?

I only ride for fun, got an RS125 'full-power', and that's expensive enough to keep on the road; If I did tests I'd want an R6 or something, and I cant afford that, not for miles I do!

If you have a 'Full-Power' sports 125, you DON'T have a licence to ride the frigging thing to start with!

The Provisional Licence allows you to ride a bike up to 125cc and 14.5bhp. A Full-Power 'Sports' 125 probably makes something like 25bhp (though undoubtedly you will be convinced it HAS to make 33), and riding one, without a Full-Licence is NO DIFFERENT to riding a 250, or 400, 600 or 1000, you equally DON'T have the entitlement to ride!

It is NOT some bit of criminal 'genius'; it's not what 'every-one' does. Its not 'all part of biking', its certainly not 'expected'.

IT IS ILLEGAL

Got insurance on it? Well, implying that it is learner legal when it isn't, is insurance fraud. You are breaking MORE laws riding a 'cheat' 125 as you would be riding an R6 or whatever you really want, also without Licence or Insurance.....

If you are happy to break these laws, for the sake of the few pennies you probably aren't saving, given that Sports 125's often cost MORE to run than 600's or 750's..... Well, MORE fools logic. You may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb, WHY bother, for the sake of maybe 10-15mph more illegal speed! These bikes may be impressive compared to a 65mph commuter 125, but compared to a 160mph 600? They are STILL not 'quick' or impressive machines to ANY-ONe who knows what they are looking at!

GET THE LICENCE and you can ride that 125 LEGALLY, you could ride the bike you REALLY WANT, LEGALLY, and it will probably be 'Cheaper'! If not, certainly be other bikes that will be!

THE EXCUSES KEEP COMING - But the answer always remains the same. If you want to ride a motorbike, then GET A LICENCE!

All of the excuses get blown away eventually, and it boils down to laziness and ignorance. Its not saving you anything, and the 'Learner-Restrictions' are ENTIRELY self imposed.

If you are OLD ENOUGH to ride a motorbike, if you can AFFORD to ride a motorbike; you are old enough and rich enough to take the tests and have ANY bike you want and can afford, NOT merely a Learner-Legal!

ALL for the sake of taking the tests and getting the PROPER licence.

The Motorcycle Test, Licence Categories & Age Restrictions

To gain a FULL moped or motorcycle licence, there are three tests.

Motorcycle Theory/Hazard Perception

Module 1 'Off-Road' practical test

Module 2 'On-Road' practical test.

These tests are conducted by the Driving Standards Agency, not the school you did CBT with. But the School may offer training to help you pass them.

As from January 19th 2013, there are three 'test schemes'; one for each category of motorcycle licence entitlement, to be applied to the two practical tests, Mod 1 & Mod 2. Plus one for moped entitlement. (Both Practical Tests Mods1 & Mod 2 must be taken on the same class of motorcycle.)

Category AM = Moped

You must be at least 16 years to ride a moped, and to take the full moped licence tests.

You may, upon completion of CBT ride a moped on provisional licence entitlement, without supervision, before passing the full motorcycle tests, though you must display L-Plates and may not carry a pillion passenger.

Test requires a vehicle conforming to the legal specifications of a 'Moped' (see:- What is a Moped?), briefly a 50cc motorcycle, that says 'Moped' on the Registration document! It may be any style of powered two wheeler, like a scooter or a sports-bike, it may be twist & go automatic or have gears; but it must be less than 50cc and not be capable of more than about 35mph.

Both tests must be taken, as for the motorcycle test, and The tests are identical to the motorcycle tests, though allowances are made for the lower performance of the vehicle; eg during the Mod 1 exercises, that normally require a serve and e-stop manoeuvre above proscribed speeds that a moped would not be expected to achieve.

Passing tests under this scheme is awarded with Full Category P licence entitlement, that allows you to ride a moped, which must still conform to moped power, speed and weight restrictions. But without L-Plates and you may carry pillion passengers. Note:- Mopeds may NOT use motorways, irrespective of whether the rider has a full licence of any category. (See also What Can I ride When I have Passed my Tests?)



Category A1 = 'Light Motorcycle'

You must be at least 17 years to ride an A1 category 'Light Motorcycle', and to take motorcycle tests under the A1 test scheme.

You may, upon completion of CBT, ride an A1 / Learner-Legal motorcycle on provisional licence entitlement, without supervision, before passing the full motorcycle tests, though you must display L-Plates and may not carry a pillion passenger, or use motorways.

Test requires a vehicle conforming to the 'Learner-Legal' Motorcycle ( see:- What is a 'Learner-Legal' Motorcycle?), Briefly a machine up to 125cc, with no more than 11Kw/14.5bhp power, but with minimum performance requirements for test; the machine must be over 120cc capacity and capable of 62mph. Again, the machine may be of any style; a scooter, commuter-bike, sports-bike, cruiser etc, and again, may have a twist & go automatic transmission or manual gears.

Passing tests under this scheme is awarded with Full Catagory A1 licence entitlement, that allows you to ride a motorcycle of the same performance specification as is 'Learner-Legal' essentially still an 11Kw/14.5bhp 125cc machine, but without L-Plates. You may also carry pillion passengers, and if you wish, use motorways. (See also What Can I ride When I have Passed my Tests?)

Category AM (moped) entitlement is automatically awarded with A1 entitlement, if not already held.

Catagory A2 = 'Middleweight Motorcycle' / Restricted Licence

You must be at least 19 years to ride an A2 category 'Middleweight Motorcycle', and to take motorcycle tests under the A2 test scheme.

Provisional-Licence entitlement remains that you may, upon completion of CBT, ride an A1 / Learner-Legal motorcycle, without supervision, before passing the full motorcycle tests, though you must display L-Plates and may not carry a pillion passenger, or use motorways.

You may, NOT however ride ANY motorcycle other machine, unsupervised, ahead of passing the full motorcycle test for higher groups (A2 or A3/Full A)

However, you MAY ride a machine compliant with A2 restrictions, on provisional entitlement, IF you are under supervision of a DSA approved Motorcycle Instructor, or DSA Motorcycle Examiner, whilst training or taking tests. (There is NO exemption to this to ride an A2 machine unsupervised to a motorcycle test)

Test requires a vehicle. of at least 395cc with a power output between 25 and 35 kW (33bhp and 46.6 bhp). No upper engine size limit, but the power to weight ratio must not exceed 0.2kW/kg and it must not be derived from a motorcycle of more than double its power. Again, the machine may be of any style; a scooter, commuter-bike, sports-bike, cruiser etc, and again, may have a twist & go automatic transmission or manual gears.

Passing tests under this scheme is awarded with Full Catagory A2 licence entitlement, that allows you to ride a motorcycle of ANY engine capacity, but no more than 35Kw (approx 47bhp.) And may not have a power to weight ratio higher than 0.2Kw per Kg. The machine may be restricted from a model that manufacturers standard specifications claims more than 35Kw, but the standard model may not male more than 2 times the power required for restriction. (See also What Can I ride When I have Passed my Tests?)

After Passing tests, you do not need to display L-Plates. You may also carry pillion passengers, and if you wish, use motorways.

Category AM (moped) entitlement, and Category A1 (125 Only Motorcycle) entitlement, is automatically awarded with A2 entitlement, if not already held.

Category A or A3 = Unrestricted Motorcycle / Direct Access Scheme (DAS)

You must be at least 24 years to ride an unrestricted A category Motorcycle and to take motorcycle tests under the A3 / DAS test scheme. OR you must have held an A2 category licence for a minimum of 2 years. (So, if you pass A2 tests when you are 19-21, you can test again for DAS before you are 24, as long as you have held A2 at least 2 years)

Provisional-Licence entitlement remains that you may, upon completion of CBT, ride an A1 / Learner-Legal motorcycle, without supervision, before passing the full motorcycle tests, though you must display L-Plates and may not carry a pillion passenger, or use motorways.

You may, NOT however ride ANY motorcycle other machine, unsupervised, ahead of passing the full motorcycle test for that group.

However, you MAY ride any machine on provisional entitlement, IF you are under supervision of a DSA approved Motorcycle Instructor, or DSA Motorcycle Examiner, whilst training or taking tests. (There is NO exemption to this to ride an A2 machine unsupervised to a motorcycle test)

Test requires a vehicle over 595cc with a power output of at least 40kw or (53.6bhp). From the end of 2013 the power output will change to at least 50 kW. A minimum weight of 180 kg will also apply. Again, the machine may be of any style; a scooter, commuter-bike, sports-bike, cruiser etc, and again, may have a twist & go automatic transmission or manual gears.

Passing tests under this scheme is awarded with Full Category A / A3 licence entitlement, that allows you to ride a motorcycle of ANY engine capacity or engine power output. This does not necessarily mean that you have to, or that it is a good idea, to jump on the biggest, fastest piece of machinery you can find! (See also What Can I ride When I have Passed my Tests?)

After Passing tests, you do not need to display L-Plates. You may also carry pillion passengers, and if you wish, use motorways.

Category AM (moped) entitlement, Category A1 (125 Only Motorcycle) entitlement, and Category A2 (33Kw or 47bhp 'restricted motorcycle) entitlement, is automatically awarded with full A / A3 entitlement, if not already held.

Automatic Transmission Restrictions

Pretty simple; you may test under any of the above test schemes, on a qualifying bike or scooter. Doesn't matter if it has a manual gear-box, or an automatic transmission, provided it meets other test requirements of engine displacement etc.

However IF you choose to use a machine that has an Automatic Transmission, for your tests, then again, you must use an auto for both Mod 1 and Mod 2 tests, AND if you pass both tests, your licence entitlement will be 'endorsed' with a restriction "Automatics Only", and you may NOT ride a geared machine.

Worth noting; The popular Honda C90 'Step-Through' commuter bike, has a three speed 'crunch' gear-box, and an automatic centrifugal clutch like a twist-and-go, and a number of contemporary motorcycles have engines derived from the old C90 motor, and retain the centrifugal clutch. Many now have a four speed gearbox, and have been bored out to a full A2 complient 125cc. The Honda Inova, is basically the successor to the C90 and has the 125cc 4-speed centrifugal clutch engine; but that engine & transmission is also used in many monkey-bikes, and pit-bikes, which are all A2 test compliant, if road-legal. However without a 'manual-clutch', a little digging with the DSA has revealed they are classed as 'Semi-Automatic' and hence testing on one will gain Auto-Only restriction, the same as testing on a twist & go. Bit of a pity that, as they DO have gears, but still.

When I gained my licence back in 1992, there was only one test scheme; you took the test on any 'learner-legal' motorcycle, up to 125cc that wasn't a moped, and you gained, straight away, a full unrestricted, ride what you like licence. They changed that, and until this year, you had to use a bike between 120 & 125cc, and do all three tests; and if you passed you got a restricted licence, that limited you to 33bhp machines for two years. But either way, it WAS possible to take tests on a 'Twist & Go'

Big front/ Small Back = higher ratio
Small font/Big Back - Higher ratio

To be honest, dropping one tooth on the front sprocket LOWERING the overall gear ratio, on a small bike, is as likely to have increased BOTH acceleration AND top speed.

Top speed is a function of power.

Power (made) = Cylinder Capacity x Cylinder Pressure x engine revs

Power (Transmitted) = Torque x Revs

So at the crank you have I umpety Newtons of Torque, times bilio thousand crank revs

At the back wheel you have umpety x overall gear ratio Newtons of torque times bilio / overall gear ratio thousand WHEEL revs.

So at 70mph, crank will be spinning 10,000rpm, rear wheel, about 3,300. Overall gear reduction between crank and wheel is about 3:1, so you will get 3x the torque at the wheel for 1/3 the revs.

Now,

Power (used) = Force (drag) x Speed.

Engine makes so much power, and you get that as 'force' at the rear wheel. As long as the supplied force is greater than the resistance, or drag force, bike accelerates.

Rate of acceleration is dependant on the DIFFERENCE in forces.

Force = Mass x Acceleratrion or Acceleration = Force / Mass.

BUT, Force causing acceleration is Rear Wheel Force - Drag Force.

And Drag increases with speed, so faster you go, more of your motive force gets used to over come drag, less is available for acceleration.

At some point the motive force delivered by the engine WONT leave any 'spare' for acceleration, and the bike will 'top out' at that speed where the drag at that speed = the max motive force the bike can deliver.

Make sense?

OK... now Lower the gearing, and you can get more force......BUT at a lower speed.....

So bike now accelerates and because of the extra advantage, always more force than drag..... BUT you run out of revs before you run out of acceleration..... bike could go faster, but you dont have another higher gear to change up into

OK, so we add another higher ratio... now you accelerate up in the lower gears, and each time you run out of revs, you change up, until you are in that new higher ratio....

Only trouble is, NOW, that ratio is SO high, when you shift up, while it will turn the wheel fast enough you wont run out of revs, its also reduced the force so much that not only is there NOT enough force to over come drag, let alone deliver any more acceleration.

Which is why we have to look at the power balence not the force balence:-

Power Made = Engine Capacity x Cylinder Pressure x Engine Revs
Power Used = Drag x Speed

You get max speed when you have gearing exactly set so that your max power exactly equals the road speed that used that power.

NOW, most bikes are 'over geared' in top, so that at higher road speeds, at part throttle, the engine revs can be backed off, and they can 'cruise' without making then engine scream so hard.

On bigger bikes they can over-gear quite significantly; you have a 140bhp ZZR1100 or something, at 10,K revs, it's probably making 30bhp as low as 3000rpm. Thats enough power to do 90mph, so COULD be geared in top to do, perhaps, 70 in top, at just 3000 revs, which would give a theoretical 140mph at 6K, and 280mph at 12K revs! 140bhp WONT push the thing to 280mph, it will struggle to go much over 170.... so if you want to achieve 'top speed' you would probably have to change down a gear, to get a lower reduction that isn't so masively 'over-tall' and puts peak power closer to real top speed.

TOP gear is in this case whats called an 'over-drive' gear......

Little 125, with only 10-11bhp to play with, is going to be geared much more closely to what the bike can REALLY Achieve in terms of top speed, becouse it doesn't have such an excess of low down power that there is anything to be gained by 'over-drive' gearing....

BUT they still 'tend' to over gear them, a little 'for economy'... and the CBF125 is a renowned 'ecconomy' motorcycle.

BIT of a cheat, TBH.... Fuel Consumption is ANOTHER expression of power....

Power = Rate of Energy Transfer

That's the base scientific defenition from which the other formula are derived.....

Whats Fuel Consumption?

Fuel = Energy, MPG the 'rate' its burned? So with a little licence, Fuel Consumption IS 'Power'.....

Back to the Sums:-

Power (used) = Speed x Drag
Power (transmitted) = Torque x Revs
Power (Made) = Engine Displacement x Cylinder Pressure x Engine revs
Power (Provided) = Rate of Burning Fuel

Make sense....

Slight asside; I have a v8 Range Rover.... I worked out that at 60mph, its supping a regular 330ml pop-can of fuel, every mile, or every minute! Scary! Even my kids cant down a can of coke THAT quick! anyway.....

Fuel Ecconomy comes NOT in any great measure from bike design or engine displacement or even 'efficiency' but from this simple principle.

Fuel Consumption is 'Power in' - and we use it to achieve 'speed'. Faster you GO, more fuel you gonna use!

My VF1000 is a pretty good example of how Mpg can 'vary' from use. Book says it should do 30mpg.... 'Touring', I have managed over 300 miles on 4 gallons of petrol.... so something in the order of 75mpg, twice what the book says it does..... conversely being a tad spirited, managed to get that down almost into single figures!

For comparison, CB125 Super-Dream; book says it does 90mpg, rarely see much more, though suspect that perhaps 100 is achieveable, if I tried... more usually around the 70 mark.

Or in other words, I have got BETTER ecconomy using a bike that is rated as 'dire' for ecconomy, 'gently' than I have an 'ecconomy' bike, more 'normally'.

Faster you go, more fuel you use!

THAT is by far the biggest variable in the ecconomy equation....

Hence the 'Cheat' in bikes like the CBF125..... over-gearing them.... reduces acceleration, so it takes you longer to attain a given speed... Ironically makes the bike 'slower' gearing it for a higher 'theoretcical' top speed, and without significantly doing anything to improve efficiency, makes them 'more ecconomical' SIMPLY by restricting your 'access' to the power you have available and making you spend it slower!

So, back to the story.... dropping front sproket one tooth, LOWERING the overall reduction, gives you more force at the back wheel for any given engine rpm, pr more precicely pushes the engine rpm up for any given Road-Speed hence giving double whamy of more force from lower gearing PLUS the extra force that ius normally only available at higher engine revs....

AND is likely to have brought the 'Theoretical' top speed, of the over-geared top gear down to something closer to the bikes actual real-world top speed for the power the engine makes.

Super-Dream, makes 13bhp, which is 'just' enough for a genuine 70mph. Stock Gearing however, gives something like 90mph at the engine's red-line.....

Engine had a fairly tractible power delivery and the power curve flats off at the top fairly helpfully, so theres' almost' the full quota of 13bhp 500-750rom either side of the 'peak;' at 10,500....

On stock gearing it WILL do 70mph, but its not happy getting there, and you have to thrash the nuts off it it 4th to get high enough up the power curve for the shift to 5th to let you carry on accelerating. shift too early, and you will creep slowly up to 60, and that will be about your lot, unless you get help from a hill!

Dropping 1 tooth off the front sprocket, then, brings that gap a bit closer, and you dont need to thrash it SO far in 4th before making shift to 5th, and once in 5th it will carry on pulling, and instead of topping out at 60-65ish, more readily pull under its own steam to a genuine 70.... wont go much further, and needle is nudging the red line, so its doing it on the power 'beyond' peak....

BUT it is still doing it, and WILL do it more often,

So, contrary to the 'theory' on that bike, lowering the gearing, increased BOTH acceleration AND top speed... and certainly the instances that top speed was available..... and its a more likely situation on most smaller bikes, and particularly 'ecconomy' machines...

Though be warned: on that 125 Super-Dream, lost about 5mpg for the change! There's ALWAYS a 'cost'!

that loss of economy, probably not so much from engine efficiency, making it turn higher revs for the same road speed or anything... but simply from actually letting you get at, and use more power more often, and power used = fuel needed!

Some years ago, company I was working for were going down the tubes, rapidly, but offering triple enhanced 'voluntary' redundancy packages...
The coffee machine query of the moment was "So, with two years tax free salary in the bank... WHAT would you do?"
Question sorted the men from the boys.. the boys all saw fancy new cars or back-packing adventures over outer-Mongolia, booze-binges in Bankok, or a hefty lump-sum in the bank towards a mortage after they had got another job.... the Men? Well they imagined getting stuck into large amounts of unfinished DIY, angry wives and piles of bills mounting up...
One of the recent grads, who had got all exited about the idea of two years salary in the bank and taking a belated gap-year to India, disappointing to find he didn't qualify, considered the apparent 'gloom' of the older co-workers seeming lack of imagination or adventure; only to conclude "So.. what you all mean, is.. you spend however long at Uni getting qualifications to get a good job, then forty years a slave to the Money Lenders, fretting over keeping your job or finding another, trying to keep just ahead of the money-men, so that after forty years, you have a pile of bricks to your name, just before social Services sell it to stick you in the nursing home?" We all had to agree with his appraisal of the matter!

So.... lets look at this 'ere 'Problem'.. WHAT is the problem?
that you don't have a credit rating?
that you cant afford, instantly, the motorbike of your dreams? (get used to it.. few can, even with a fantastic credit rating!)
that you're a materialistic c-word?

My bike, is twenty something years old; it aint fast, it aint pretty, it isn't particularly exiting or even valuable... but it IS mine... 100% paid for, cash. Insurance, likewise is paid upfront; so is the tax. If 'something' happened to it... I don't know, it broke down, fell over or something.. I would still have 'some'money in the bank to be able to fix it.. I wouldn't be eeking that I had to find umprty quid a month to keep up the HP installments and the Inurance payments AND have the tax coming out the bank, before hand, all for a bike that I couldn't ride..... I don't actually have anything but my house on credit, and even that, I own three times more of it than the bank does, so its cheaper than paying rent. I don't even have a contract for a mobile telephone, or a subscription TV service. I am NOT a 'Credit Slave'. and consequently, despite not actually having a particularly high income, I can still afford a reasonably affluent life-style....

Credit.. Other-People's Money.. usually costs you around 15-20% a year... so you start spending OPM, the £900 a month you earn, isn't... it rapidly becomes just £800 a month... £100 of it immediately committed to pay the interest to the shylocks..... NOT all for the sake of not being a materialistic c-word, but not being an IMPATIENT materialistic c-word...

You can still be a materialistic c-word, and have nice shiny stuff, without credit... you just have to save up a bit for it..... then, its all yours not the money mens, and that £100 a month is still in your pocket, not committed to thiers.

So.. what's the 'problem'?
Personally I don't see one.. and advice to get credit builder credit cards or start taking out contract phones and other ploys to build a credit history... not actually a solution, so much as a great way to find more 'problems'...

That's my take on the matter.... but your call. But identify what the REAL problem is before trying to solve it.

You have waited this long to get on two wheels, whats a couple more months? You don't have ANY bike right now, so even one that's not as 'exiting' as you might like, is still going to be infinitely more 'fun' than sitting on a bus? Why sell your soul to the shylocks for it?

125's are very compromised bikes; and on a learner licence, trying to squeeze even 'more' from them than what's intended; 'cheap & easy' learner-(short) commuter use, is just silly, all for the sake of exploiting loophole in law that says you can ride one without taking tests and getting full licence.

Every other motorised road user has to train up, under supervision, and pass driving tests before they are let out on thier own; 125 L-Plate regs are mere legacy of the days when, before practicable & reliable bike-to-bike radio comms, there was no way to supervise a learner, so give them small, lightweight, limited performance machine thay cant do 'too much' harm to other road users on, and let them wobble about a bit until they get the idea...

They'll get you to and from work or college, accross town, but that's about it. They CAN do 70mph, but with so little reserve, and so little weight to make them stable or comfy, its only really a capability you want to expliot 'occassionally'.

With a full licence; which OUGHT to be the intent of any-one setting out on two wheels; choice of bikes is huge; and door open to all biking has to offer, rather than frustrating yourself trying to live with self imposed 'learner' limits, trying to sqeeze a pint out of a thimble!

MOST, as soon as they have, 'Full-Licence'.... (it's NOT, but often called 'Big-Bike' licence!).... and the door to all the shiney, fast, exiting bikes that are out there is open, are USUALLY eager to go get a 'propper' bike, and exploit thier new qualification.

Not MANDATORY.... and 125's do offer a lot of advantages; they are STILL cheap; they are STILL easy to ride, and they are still small, light and nimble, etc.

As a cross town commuter; there is still a lot of sense for hanging on to one.

Practical top speed of 55mph, and dilemah of using duel-carriageways and braving tucking into the queue of trucks, or working harder taking the scenic route; it will take a lot more maintenence to keep a bike worked that hard that often in good fettle, and it will be very 'wearing' to ride like that, that much, every day.

YES: you COULD do it with a YBR or a CBF or similar, but these bikes are supposed to be 'easy to ride', and under those circumstances, used in the extremes of thier operating envelope, you loose SO much of thier virtue, it's really time to look at more suitable alternatives.

Something like 2/3 of all registered vehicles in the UK are bought on loans or credit! HOW do you think ANY-ONE trades in thier car or bike? Do you think that EVERY-ONE waits until they have paid the last installement of thier five year credit deal, before they buy a new car or bike?

If you take out an 'unsecured loan', that's exactly what it is; contract between you and the lender, you accepting liability for the principle, and agreed interest; doesn't really matter what you use it for; provided you pay it back. THAT is why it's called 'unsecured', it is not 'secured', ie: no contract exists that the lender has any claim to the actual 'property' you buy with it.

If you take out a 'Hire Purchase' scheme, or 'Secured Credit' agreement; then the LENDOR technically 'buys' the vehicle you want, and has title or cliam to title to that property. Means that if you dont make the payements, they can, more easily, reclaim the goods bought to recoup their money; hence are accepting less 'risk' of default. Meanwhile, you are in part 'renting' the goods from them, and in part, 'buying' a share of it, until at the end of the scheme, entire credit fees repayed, you own 100% of the vehicle.

On an 'unsecured loan'; there is NO problem at all; to what you do with the money you borrow, or what you spend it on. So, If you borrow, £2000 you can spend £1200 on a used YBR, and use the remaining £800 to insure it for the first year; buy your riding kit, and pay for CBT, Training & Tests. Fact that you have borrowed MORE than the value of the bike, doesn't matter to them; becouse they couldn't 're-possess' it anyway.. they would, simply take you to small claims court and get a credit injunction against you.

SO; if the loan is unsecured; YOU have legal title and clear 'ownership' of the bike, and can do what you like with it, and at ANY time, sell that bike on. Up to you whether you buy another bike with the proceeds, or get a car instead, or even a Holiday in Morocco..... provided you make the repayements.

If you buy on a 'Secured Loan' or Finance Agreement, where the 'ownership' of the bike is technically 'Shared' by you and the cridit company; its a little more tricky, BUT, they have mechanisms for this, becouse it happens every day.

The 'old fasioned' way of doing it, was that you wrote and asked thier permission to 'sell' the bike. They then sent you a letter of agreement, and a copy, to provide to the buyer; so that the resale value wasn't deminished by bike being flagged as having outstanding credit against it. Basically, they gave you permission to sell on thier behalf, and relinquished 'title' to the goods, so that they couldn't repossess the machine from the buyer. That letter would also invoke 'early termination' clauses within the original agreement, and usually, within 30 days or so of 'sale', YOU were obliged to have got the proceeds of sale of the buyer, and paid the Credit company the outstanding finance charges from it.

THIS is where the 'problem' if there is one, normally arises, as often the settlement figure, would be everything you WOULD have paid, IF you had let the agreement run to termination.

Twenty years ago, I bought Brand-New Kawasaki AR125 on Credit, and if I had sold the bike, mid term, I was liable to repay ALL the payements I would have made if I had let agreement run to termination over two years.

The bike was actually stolen four months into the agreement; Bike had cost £1400 in the show room, but interest charges took repayement total to £1700 over two years. When it was stolen, I had made four payements; £300's worth. Insurance company valued bike at 'market value' and tried to give the credit company just £1000 for the bike, leaving me, 'liable' for £400's worth of outstanding finance charges, and NO BIKE.

It had been recovered, so I got it back, and fixed it up myself, as I didn't HAVE £400 to 'settle' with instantly, as early settlement demanded, and after exposing a near 'fraud' by the insurance co & salvage firm, they actually settled for £900, with me keeping the bike, so I was able to maintain the agreement, and not loose out....

But be warned, early settlement clauses, can be pretty punative, and not just envoked when YOU want to sell the bike.

I think it took until about 145 months, that the monthly HP fees 'balenced' the bikes depreciation & interest charges, and I started to 'effectively' buy any of it.

BUT depending on the agreement, there is always a balence point, and depends on the small print where that is, and when and IF its 'worth' trading the bike in for another.

THAT... I cant really tell, you. All I can say is, its not a 'Problem' you dont HAVE to keep the bike full term of the credit agreement.... whether its ecconomical NOT to, is another matter... but then secured credit deals tend NOT to be the most ecconomical, anyway, even when they suggest really attractive ZERO % interest...... you REALLY have to check the contract carefully, and be SURE of what you are getting.

NO 125 would 'really' be up to that kind of commute. You are trying to bag far too much into ONE very limited capability motorbike.

125's have expected life of about seven years and 35,ooo miles; One that's done just 5K will be barely run in; one that's done 30K will be on its last legs!

Age, well, they are MOT exempt for three years, and CAN easily rack up 10K a year, pressed to commute like a car; and be 'fucked' before they even have to get anb MOT!

After 3 years you have some assurance that they have been tested, and any niggles sorted out.

But, condition is all. And not the shiney bits.

Ex School bikes, and many YBR's & the ilk ARE ex-School bikes; wont crank up many miles, riding around the CBT play-ground; but they WILL have thier gearboxes macshed by umpety students getting to grips with gears; thier clutch burned out, finding the balence point, and thier fork seals hammered practicing e-stops etc....

All down to how well maintained they are, as to whether that is a 'Problem'....

And ultimately, a well looked after School bike, with regular oil changes, clutch replacvements, chain adjustments etc etc, could, for all likely to show evidence of minor spill damage, be much better bike than privately owned machine, some-one has kept shiney, but never got thier hands dirty checking or lubing the drive chain, or anything.

BUT, as far as 'value' goes, that credit deal, probably 50% more than price of the bike, is where you OUGHT to be 'most' careful, and shop most carefully.

All up; for this situation, I would have to suggest, thinking long and hard about buying 125 on credit. A Personal loan would give you more flexibility, and 'bagging' all your 'wants' into one agreement...

KNOWING you are payiong over the odds for everything; DONT STINT yourself.

Go for a personal, unsecured loan, and stretch it.....

Take out enough to let you get a training course, on school bike, to avoid bother of buying 125, perhaps, or that will get you a really 'good' 125, to make training & tests easy, but give flexibility to sell on, and get more 'suitable' commuter bike, for your 40 mile trip.

JUST to give you heads up; Snowie, looking for insurance quotes, discovered that taking out a years policy on her 125 post test, will cost no less becouse she has a full licence. More, trading UP to a 500 twin, premium, for same cover, on same value bike DROPS by 30%.... that's £40 for her..... on a more expensive policy? Could be much more significant.

Taking credit, can build your credit rating; useful if in years to come, you want to take out a mortgage or anything. But, default, or have a bank 'fuckup' (I had one on bank loan I took out to buy My VF many years ago; I moved house, and so cancelled all teh standing orders on the account for 'utilities'... bludy clerke cancelled loan order too, and they 'the bank'... DOWH! who I had filled in all the Change Of adress forms, and who were sending me monthly statements on my current and savings account; ended up using a Debt collection agency, who used a detective agency to 'track me down', becouse I did NOT provide them with my new address! Idiots!) Can 'knock' your credit rating! (That one the bank who were sending me bank statements but had to get a debt collegction agencty involved to find out where I had absconded to, actually took out a CCJ against me, without my knowing it, that was a RIGHT PITA when I wanted a mortgage!)

So, pro's and cons......

£99 down and £70 a month? Hmmm.... 12 x 70 = £840, + 100 = best part of £1000, wait another six months and you would have about £1500 in your bank... NOT unfortunately, these days, earning, rather than costing you interest.... which would probably buy you, outright the 18month old bike some-one had bought this week on finance, and was effectively cashing out of.... and own it 'clear' no risk, no more payements, and be best part of £1500 up, rather than £1500 down compared to taking credit....

Financially, it doesn't make MUCH sense...... BUT.... it does make sense.

Question REALLY I would be asking is do I NEED this bike?

In my case, I had no other wheels, and needed transport; it was bike or shank's; so needs-musted..... if its a 'toy' you can live without, that merely justifies a bit of existance saving bus-fares and letting you get about, think hard, and probably say NO.

If you DO dive in though..... whats 'DEAL' will they give you on a CBR?

In for a penny, in for a quid..... which was why I went for Kawasaki's 'Sporty' AR125 at £1400 rather than thier 'commuter' KH125 at £1099...... difference on monthly payements was not that significant, and the AR, I figured, apart from being 'nicer' bike to own, at the end of the two years I took credit over, would be more saleable, for better money. Not SO true, then; more 'sensible' prople wanted KH's, but they also didn't want to pay sensible money for them, where AR, not so sensible, got terribly eager and 'less' sensible buyers eager to part with cash, of which there were far more. Same is probably MORE true of Honda CBR125..... may be worth checking out, the 'total' cost of ownership and comparing two year old second hand prices to see which will more readily sell, and give least depreciation.

BUT.... parental 'cointersignature'..... talk to parents.... DO they want to do that for you? Would THEY lend you 'cash' instead; say £1500 to get second hand bike 'now'; and you pay them back at rate of £70 a month? ZERO interest as far as you are concerned, and less risk on THEM that they'll start having balifs turn up on teh door or THEIR credit rating hammered if you loose your job, or 'something'?

ALWAYS a tough cookie, and finance ALWAYS looks better than it is; but its a necessary evil, and we have to learn to cope with it and use it wisely.... Talk to parents, try and see if you can make it work for you, and could be worth the doing..... if not, other ways to skin a cat.... and ultimately, you could get a second hand Chinese bike in a Box under your bum, for less than down payement and a couple of installements..... not nice biking, but third class biking beats first class walking, and if you dont NEED it as dependable transport, but lets you go play, just the same, better, leaves you cash in hand each month to go do training and tests, possibly even on a school bike, if the chinky thing or old Jap 'classic' is too embarassing.... to get your licence before they change riules and you cant do tests on a 125 except for permenant 125 licence..... could all be good, and better way to go........ rather than a high cost and fancy 125 you are paying MAINLY for the privilidge of being new, and subsidising future owners, NOT using it THAT much, as a 'toy' bike, paying all the credit and depreciation on it for three years, shorting yourself on cash to do training and tests...... so repeat CBTing until its paid for, THEN realising in three years you cant take a test on it, and you are too young to do DAS and get a full licence anyway, and are pretty much 'stuck' with the thing...

OR you change jobs, or get laid off, or or or.....

We cant tell you what to do, its your life, your credit / money, you are pledging.... YOU have to weigh up whether its worth it TO YOU.... but think long and hard, thats all we can ddo, give you food for thought.

You simply fantacise what it might be like..... believe me, things are ALWAYS better in fantacies.....

Your not quite so pretty girlfreind, who grumbles you never talk to her, while cutting you off mid sentence to answer a meaningless txt from her best mate, that grumbles you never do anything together, when you spent ALL saturday with her shopping for shoes, and being 'educated' that actually there IS a difference between 'burgandy' and 'Dark Red', and who complains "Not Now! My Parents are Upstairs"..... is, in a Fantacy, a drop dead gorgeouse, completely undemanding nymphette......

Bikes are not much different.

Look great in the magazines; you watchj the films and they take your breath away, and you think 'I GOTTA get me one of them!"

When you do.... like a girlfreind... gives you a few odd moments of shear extacy..... few moments that it makes you smile..... a lot of the time you don't think about it much at all..... and then you have the 'reality' when it wont start in the morning, or it needs new tyres, or the indicators are playing up.... and you REALLY know that this shit doesn't happen in the movies, apart from comedy farces, where curiously its actually 'funny'......

So stick with the bus, and enjoy the fantacies a little longer.....

£70 a month JUST what it would cost you for a bike, at £350 PA, TPO, insurance is going to be at LEAST £30 a month, on a £2.5K brand new bike, Fully Comp to cover the risk of it being dropped or nicked..... at LEAST double that......

So, sat the bus, enjoying your fantacies.... you are saving MINIMUM £100 per month for the small inconvenience of a bus being late.

I KNOW busses are a nightmare; when I was a kid, (NO, you BASTARDS! They WEREN'T drawn by fucking HORSES! ) Lived in rural district; catchment area for my school 30miles accross; getting about was a right pain in the arse, relying on rare, inconvenient public transport, lifts or shanks' pony. BUT amazing how we got about... and quite remarkeable how far you can get on a humble push bike.......

Maybe your first 'month' HP=Equivilency; you could buy a push bike? Got one already? Then your sorted, aren't you?

Six months; you said you weren't so keen on the foul weather idea...... £600..... come March, with THAT money in your pocket, and whatever 18th Birthday brings... THEN go check out the options again.

If nothing else, you have a bigger deposit to stick down on a bike on finance, and will have shown your Mum & Dad, and proved to yourself, you can meet the payements..... more still, bigger deposit means you'll be ahead on the payements game, and might get a better deal.

OR close enough on, being able to get 2nd hand bike.

Though; with 3rd Directive licence laws coming up to hammer younger riders; PERSONALLY.... I'd be thinking about getting that licence cracked.

Ride the bus, use push-bike; use 'motorbike-money' to book and take Theory/hazard test; get that one under your belt; then do some rider training on School bike, like you did your CBT, each month, for the 'Riding Feeling', and if you CAN book tests on School bike, and get THEM out of the way ASAP.....

You're looking at about £500 for a rider training course, on school bike.... so you could have that DONE and dusted by April next year, and not be restricted to a 125 by licence.

And over 18, credit agreement / bank loan, whether in your name or counter signed with or without help from parents; you COULD go looking for a 2nd hand bike on credit...... dont HAVE to buy new.... and with a licence, dont HAVE to be a mere 125.....

Hows THAT effect the fantacy.......

Sat on the bus fantacising pottering down the lanes on a CBF125.... of blasting down them on a GS500 or DRZ450, or something?

Sod it... fantacy... you can make it a bludy Super-Blackbird if you want.... but imminently, you could make 500 reality.... IF you are kanny about the way you go about it.

I think; committing yourself to a credit deal; all up; is a lot of risk; and biggest is, even if nothing elce goes tits up, you'll be struggling so much JUST to keep up the payements on the bike, AND the Insurance, you wont do training or tests... you wont even THINK about them until about four months before your CBT is about to expire..... and you'll be kicking yourself you've missed opportunity to get licence on 125, and can only get a 125 licence on your CBF, or will have to struggle even HARDER to find the money to do training and tests DAS style on a 500 to only get 'half' a licence, that keeps you ON a 500, not just two years but until you have held 500 licence two years or turn 24, and do test AGAIN, and again, expensive DAS style.......

LITTLE bit of patience up front; Maybe taking a chance on a 2nd hand Chinese-Fake-Away... 'Just' to get you in the saddle.... even if you have to chuck it in a skip in a years time....... £300 for a Chinky bike you chuck away is a LOT less than the £1000, £100 Down and twelve £70's would be to STILL not own a CBF, that you'd be in negitive equity with and would probably have to find best part of £500 to pay off credit agreement, on top of 2nd hand price of bike.....

BUT... SOME-ONE has to buy 'New' 125's or there wouldn't be any second hand ones out there for any-one elce......

And there is the old addage, fool and his money are soon parted....

Ultimately your call..... BUT I think every-one is saying, that JUST becouse it gives 'instant' gratification, the long term cost is a lot more than 'just' the high buy price & credit charges.......

SIX MONTHS.....

Do a reverse cooling of period; its winter, and horrible biking weather coming up anyway; use it; save the aproximate payements; prove you can afford it, stick some dosh in the bank; if you dont do traing with it; or use it to stick bigger deposit down to shorten payement period, or lower pmonthlies; there to pay for training & tests, and not squeeze you SO much the bike is a burden not a joy IF you still go new on credit.

My suggestion, but you have to go with what you think is best.

[Ste]

MY opinion of 125's in general is they are a utility tool; either to get your tests 'done' on, or simply to get about on cheaper than a bus fare. In either case, asthetics are hardly something worth worrying about; if you want tests; you want easy ride, look after you learner bike, that's cheap and easy to live with, and easy to flog on to fund big bike when you are done; while if you just want cheap wheels; CHEAP is the only thing worth worrying about.

So I'm wondering if I'me merely going to get another tirade of abuse as Rog or computid, for even TRYING to point out the merit of my wisdom......

I'll try anyway.....

Told you purpose of a 125; its a tool; either a training tool to get tests, or rudimentary bus-fare beating ecconomy travel.

The Learner Licence is just that, a LEARNER licence, fact you can ride a 125 unsupervised on the public roads without passing a test is a priovilidge and a 'loop-hole' of legacy legislation, from the days before practical radio supervision was possible..

Yeah, you can exploit it, and RIDE around on an over priced flash fairinged or over chromed tiddler, perpetually repeating CBT's as long as the loophole remains (which may not be much longer TBH, but thats another topic I'll come to in a minute)

Doesn't really matter how asthetically pleasing a 125 may be; slap a ruddy great L-Plate front and back to comply with your licence, rather spoils the 'look'.

You could have a sit up and bag, YBR commuter, an over chromed Honda Shaddow, 'cruiser', a Suzuki DR125 'Off-Roader', or Honda Veradaro 'Adventure Sport', or an Aprillia RS4 plastic fantastic.....

All mimic the style if the 'big-boy-bikes' and some, physically large, pull it off quite well..... until the engine's started and it sounds about as 'meaty' as a half eaten packet of beef flavoured crisps..... and goes about as fast!

And, being brutally honest, any-one looking at you on one, well, few will be all that 'impressed'. Might impress the odd school kid not old enough to have ANY bike, and the occassional person without much knowledge of bikes that thinks it looks quite cool..... BUT any-one that actually KNOWS anything about bikes.... well, they aren't going to be 'fooled' and will know exactly what they are looking at, ESPECIALLY if facts advertised by that ruddy L-Plate.

So; who looks coolest; lad on a £1,500 YBR125, or one on £4K YZF-R125?

Niether, they BOTH look like Learner-Tits.

Only the lad on the YBR, looks like he might have a few good ideas, and has picked a useful little bike, that's easy to ride, and 'sensible' that is more likely to impress an examiner, and has a lot going for it, being cheap to buy, insure and run, and not a huge liability to repair or write off if he dumps it, which as a learner, is inordinately likely, and as like as not, lad might be quite smart, and for the sake of a bit of style, using savings to pay for training & tests, getting out and about and enjoying life, and saving up to put money into a bike that not just looks good, but goes great, when he's got his licence.....

Lad on YZF-R125, looks like a social inadequete, you expect will have a bad case of acne hidden under his hat, who hopes, committing to a three year finance deal on a horendousely expensive motorcycle, that looks like something its not, will make him look good, and increase his social standing.... ie a misguided poser.... as likely to smash bike to bits very early, making it look even more laughable, and leaving him with huge credit agreement to settle, a big repair bill, and no money, to do anything else, like go out, have fun, or heaven forbid, get licence and get big bike... while being laughed at even more by his peers, first for being a bit of a tit, second proving it, buying an R125 to massage his misguided ego, then skuffing up its good looks, and being stuck on skuffed, slow, joke of a bike......

Yeah, they look great in teh show-room.... but sorry, bottom line is that they ARE a joke to ANY-ONE that has ANY idea about bikes.

So, whats the best looking and fastest four stroke 125?

YBR125.... ugly as sin, asthetically, but the numbers that say they are cheap to buy and the fastest way to a full licence to get anything even remotely inspiring makes them one of the most attractive learner bikes on the market.....

THINK about it!

Now, back to that loop-hole of unsupervised riding ahead of passing tests, on L-Plates.

Legacy provision was made so learners could practice while learning to ride, same as car drivers, who have to have a qualified passenger thats not possible when carrying a pillion isn't permitted on a motorcycle provisional..... Its NEVER been there so you can prat about to your hearts content on L-Plates never manning up to taking tests for a full licence.

As from January 2013, barely fourteen months away, we, in the UK have to satisfy European Treaty Legislation, and comply with the Euro-Licence harmonisation laws.

This specifically DENIES unsupervised riding prior to qualification... Ie riding on L's.

Terst requirements significantly call for DAS style training under radio supervision, and its likely that THAT is what will HAVE to happen... we have 'assuranmces' that unsupervised L-Plating MAY be permitted in the UK, but how that can be rationalised against EU Legislation remains to be seen, and cant be relied on.

Meanwhile, "3rd Directive" laws will mean you cant 'test' on a 125 for more than a 125 only licence. You will also have to be over 24 to do DAS to get full unrestricted licence, while the 33bhp 'restricted' licence will be replaced with the A2 licence, which you will have to be 19 to apply for, demand expensive DAS style training (unlikely to be widely available!) & test on a 500, and limit you 'for ever' or at least two years when you might repeat test DAS style on bigger bike for full A group.

Ie its going to get hard, and its going to get expensive to get a licence, in 14 months time......

Might not exactly be easy right now, BUT..... you can currently test on a 'qualifying' 125 and get full A group licence and never have to do it again..... AND do it at 17 years old..... true, may be restricted to 33bhp for two years, but that's a small impediment compared to whats in the pipe line.

Makes that YBR as a cheap, conmvenient route to a full licence and something as stylish as a GPZ500S rather MORE attractive..... or at least in my eyes.

Meanwhile, answer to your question, 'best' learner legal four stroke 125 ever built, is the Honda CB125 'Super-Dream'.... its one of the more powerful, and designed to go head to head on performance against its two stroke rivals, in its day, and succeeded. But, concervatively styled, looks 'smart' (if in tidy condition) if not 'fancy', and has an engine thats silky smooth (if in decent fettle), the best of both worlds with four stroke tractability and mid range, as well as howling two-stroke style power up top, revved to 12,000rpm. Creditable handling, curtecy of sophisticated multi-link suspension, still more advanced than most contemprary 'sports' 125's two stroke or four stroke, great brakes, curtecy of again, more sophisticated tham most, twin pistoin caliper front disc, comfy, curtecy of propper seat and seating possition, that more upright, also provides great around visbility and good machine control..... while lack of fancy or unnecessary plastic or chrome, means theres little adornment to skuff, break, rust or clean!

As far as I'm concerned, it was pretty close to being the 'perfect' learner bike.... but, I suspect, despite being the answer to the question you actually asked, like all else so far, WONG, by dint of not being what you want to hear.....

Well..... ponder a short while...... so much in whats been offered that by your standards is 'wrong'.... what do you think is at odds here?

Is it us, with, between us many, many years experience of bikes and biking, and whats good, bad, or plain daft....

Or the standards you are judging our advice by, based on what you think, 'looks' good?

In 1980 the CB250N Super-Dream 'Deluxe' (it had a red sgo faster stripe and a 'spoiler' moulded into the tail-lamp cowl!) was listed at £999. Mochek Honda in london, then biggest honda dealers, offered them in MCN, on finance, I recall, "All you need for under £10 a week" £99 down and something like £30 a month on the knock, leaving enough for couple of gallons of go-juice that had just nudged the quid a gallon mark, ISTR.

In 1982..... when the 125 learner laws came along.... same bike was virtually worthless; five year old 250N's were given away three for the price of one... only people that wanted them were severely strapped poverty commuters, who picked the best to use and used the others to keep it going, with the unfortunatel conclusion that often the bits that you needed were the bits that were already broken on the 'donors'.

400's were few and far between. They weren't a cheap bike, I think they listed at almost 50% more in the Honda catalogue than the 250, and were not half as much more bike for the money. I believe that the far more popular and reliable CX500 was actually a tad cheaper, if you didn't want to get anywhere in a hurry.... and if you did? You didn;t buy a Honda 500! (or 550!)

Shed loads of suposed 400N's have turned out to be 250's dressed up-with twin discs, and occassionally 400 barels. Nore genuine 400's eneded up with 250 lumps banged in them as get-me-by poverty repairs, and the whole LOT, living in the world of baked bean-tin and gaffer tape bodges for over three dacades, NOT a great place to go looking for every-day useable 'decent' motorcycles.

There are some nice ones out there, and I was ahgast ten years ago to see a 250 Super-Dream command a price greater than its original list price.... supposedly 'Restored'. Properly and contientiousely done? Yes I can see that it might cost some-one that kind of money to do; in fact a lot more. So realistically, its either a real bargain, or a shit-heap in a fancy paint-job.... but either way, not really what I'd want as a practical every day road-bike; quickly loosing its appeal as a 'classic' from the patina of use, or not working at all as that shineyness wears off to reveal its decentness is only skin deep.

What's reasonable?

Well, if it runs, has Tax & test on it, and isn;t too obviousely or badly bodged; as baked bean budget get-to-work wheels, its worth £300, and chuck it away and get another when it breaks.

If its fairly tidy and looks like it will last a year without too much work, maybe £500 - £700

Anything more than that, and it's going to have to be pretty special, and got a lot of providence, been very well renovated or restored, and or be very original.

For a collectors special, that isn't a mish-mash of bits from different model years, or even models; so the paint job is correct for year; body-work is correct to model; wheels are the right ones; engine the right colour and it still has all the correct cheese head Japanese standard crossheads on the generator cover etc..... real Super-Dream anorack, might hope for a couple of grand or more for it. More if its a genuine original UK reg 400, not a grey import from the US or Germany.

So between the 'Well its got two wheels and an engine and it moves' bargain basement specials up to the £700 mark, up to the Silly-Money show-specials, you have a mine-field of bikes in varying conditions, mechanically or cosmetically, with varying degrees of originality or authenticity.

£900 ought to get you something 'Decent', by my sense of asthetics, but big risk that its more likely to be a cosmetically tidied scrapper, than a mechanical gem with scruffy paint.

They haven't made one of these things for 30 odd years, so its in the lap of really; this is the old-bike / no its a classic mine-field.

For poverty spec wheels, I;d not be looking at them. I'd be looking at later CB two-fifty's, or CD200 benleys, if I could snaffle one, a CB250RS single.

For under-a-grand every day commuter bike; I;d be looking at the more contemprary 500 twins; CB500, ER5, GPz500, GS500, and if needs be restricting one. Easy enough to do; and they are more plentiful, so more chance of finding a better one; still in the parts listings, and with less parts marked 'obsolete', so easier to keep running and generally live with.

For a classic? Spending a silly amount of money on an old high maintenance machine that needs lots and lots of loving attention?

I would not spend £2K+ on a 'boring' Super-Dream; I'd spend it on something slightly more 'interesting'.... and pretty open book on what that might be.... but even an XS650 would be more appealing, if not significantly cheaper!

Negative Equity.. owing more against something, than it is worth.
You buy brand new bike, for say £4000. You 'owe; £4000 + the full interest over repayment period; for 2 yrs @ 20% that might be £1200.
So, before you begin, you owe, £5200 against something that costs, only £4000... and the moment you wheel it out the door... its not a new bike.. it's second hand... and worth maybe £3000... So you have a £3000 motorcycle, and owe £2,200 MORE than its worth..
Think about this... 1) You decide you don't like it and want something different, wheel it back into the dealers.... they give you 'trade in value' for the bike, and instantly you are liable to settle the finance, and have to find the entire £2,200 to cover the 'negative equity'.
2) Bike gets stolen... insurance co pay the market value of the bike... £3,000... not to YOU, but to the HP co... you no longer own the bike, YOU have to settle the outstanding finance, and find £2,200 straight away.. or make arrangements... you could be paying for a bike some fucktard thief is having fun on for another YEAR...
3)The bike gets damaged... by YOU... you fall off it.... you have fully comp insurance... makes sense, anything happens to the bike, they pay repairs, regardless who's to blame. Did you know, that a Yamaha YZF-R125, can be 'written off' by an insurance company as a 'total loss' for merely falling off the center stand? Well it can. Genuine Yamaha prices for those fancy sporty fairing panels are pretty exhorbitant; and insurance company would assess damage by bits that need replacing; not bodging it back together with gaffer tape and a bit of paint... also, a nearly new YZF-R125 is almost worth as much 'scrap' for the parts in it that can be sold for spares, as it is as a whole bike on the high-street; SO they are very likely to write one off, for any claim, 'total-loss'; and when they do, bike becomes thier proprty, and they pay your finance co the market value, less policy excess, and leave you instantly liable to make up the difference... or make arrangement to carry on paying till its cleared; leaving you bike-less, but still paying for bike you don't have.

For approximately 2/3 of any finance agreement, you are likely to be in this 'Negative Equity' Trap; owing more than you own, making payments that are constantly behind the interest and depreciation on the bike. And for that entire period... any crap happens, you can be stuffed with a big bill, and have to find that cash you didn't have in the first-place, or keep paying for something you no longer have or can make use of.

Think long and hard about this. I was always told; if you cant afford to buy something 'cash' then you cant afford to buy it on credit.

But it's 'risk'... could all go well for you, but even so, in two years time, after spending maybe £5-5,500 in list price and credit charges for a £4000 bike... have something worth less than half that left at the end.... thats a LOT of money, JUST to have something new and flash....

Think on this... brand new YBR125 is only £2400 in the show-room... has as much functional value; its practically as fast... it'll do everything any other 125 might, pretty much... and the sort of money you are talking about is like walking into a dealers, buying one of THEM brand new, and chucking it away in two years time....

When in fact, it would still probably be worth around £12-14,00, and in the time you'd have owned it probably cost you a damn site less in insurance and general running costs;

Also a little less likely to get stolen... 125's are VERY high risk, 'fancy' ones, even more desirable to tea-leaves, because they can pose about on them, and plenty of suckers who cant afford to run them, wont ask questions when they need bits to fix crash damage.

Also less likely to risk write off for minor cosmetic damage, like falling off the side stand; there's less to break, and what there is tends not to be so expensive.

Its a LOT less risk, EVEN if you bought one of them on credit... but you are still talking about spending a HELL of a lot of money, you dont have, (or you wouldn't be thinking of financing!) on a bike you cant really afford, to get? Well.. infantesimile insignificant performance advantage and a lot of very questionable 'style' cudos.

Like I said... over two years, even if all goes well, those 'small' pluses will have cost you the same as buying a brand new YBR125 and throwing it away.

Think... think LONG and think HARD about this. Its NOT as easy as it sounds and its the hidden risks and pitfalls that are likely to come back and bite you in the bum.... HARD.

Well change THAT plan for starters.

Riding on L's a a privilege, a concession of legacy legislation from days when only way a learner could learn was siding on their own. Every other road user has to prove they are competent enough to ride before they are allowed out on thier own in a motor vehicle, YET its incredible, motorcycles statistically THE most dangerouse form of motorised transport are the only one we let utter numpties out on with the scantiest of training or preparation. and as a 17 year old, on L's on a 125, YOU are one of THE most likely to get hurt, and badly.

You can break almost all UK speed limits on a 125; only one that might be a bit of a challenge for some is the duel-carriageway limit of 70mph, but many can still top it, even 'restricted' ones. Meanwhile, MOST motorcycle accidents DONT actually happen at speed or on higher speed limit roads. MOST happen on 20, 30 & 40mph 'restricted' urban roads.

Tiddlers ENT 'Toys', and being little don't bean you cant still get hurt big on them. You face pretty much the same risks on a 125 as you do on ANY other motorcycle.. and the biggest one is probably YOU.

Young riders (and drivers) under 25 years old are the most likely to crash. L-platers even more so; BOYS more still. Three hits YOU qualify on all three counts, statistically, to very soon become one.

You cant do fuck all about getting old.... I wish we could... believe me!

You PROBABLY don't want to do anything that might be surgically be possible about being a boy....

Which leaves what? what is the ONE thing you can do something about to get yourself out of that most at risk group?

Yup GET A FUCKING LICENCE.

And it ENT hard. If you are planning on riding a bike as main transport every day, you will either be hurt... or doing 99% of what's needed to pass tests every day.

Theory? Mod 1 & Mod 2, self booked, and done on the 125 you intend to buy ANYWAY, cost just £121.50... pretty much what a repeat CBT does.... and you would have to re-do that to carry on riding when yours expires, or to step up top do A2 licence training, when you would still have Theory to get sorted... so, even cheaper... £90 ish.

AT the beginning, get the licence; its a perpetual CBT cert, and RATHER than having the months ebb away on your CBT cert you have months counting down on the New Driver Act 2 year probation, when they will take your licence off you for just 6 penalty points... (and they can wallop you with two just for loosing an L-Plate, you know?), rip it up and make you start over... and be spending them two years on a bike, of lesser performance, without L's less likely to encourage or help you get into situations that might get you them points.

Being able to carry pillions and use motorways, may be small advantages, but nice to know you can, even if you don't.

Then IF you want to step up to an A2 licence; you have a clear shot; you wont have to repeat CBT before you start, nor worry about getting your theory cert; you can book some training and get straight on with it; AND, having actually done the tests once, they are exactly the same tests, just done on a different sized bike... you ought to have plenty of confidence having spent an afternoon or two getting used to weight and power of a bigger bike; you can go do them again, and get 1st time pass.

SO; its ALL win. Costs fuck all to get a licence and ditch the L's. Gets you one step out of the danger zone... might not be far, but you don't have to out-run the lion, just the guy next to you... and showing the 'sense' its likely to carry on taking you further from the Danger-Zone. Gets your NDA probation gone. Gives you the opportunity to use motorways or carry pillons. And sets you up, for bigger things later, with potential savings and the most important thing CONFIDENCE all the way.

Put getting the licence first, NOT the bike. Licences are for life. Bikes never last.

The Provisional Licence allows you to ride a bike up to 125cc and 14.5bhp. A Full-Power 'Sports' 125 probably makes something like 25bhp (though undoubtedly you will be convinced it HAS to make 33), and riding one, without a Full-Licence is NO DIFFERENT to riding a 250, or 400, 600 or 1000, you equally DON'T have the entitlement to ride!

It is NOT some bit of criminal 'genius'; it's not what 'every-one' does. Its not 'all part of biking', its certainly not 'expected'.

IT IS ILLEGAL

Got insurance on it? Well, implying that it is learner legal when it isn't, is insurance fraud. You are breaking MORE laws riding a 'cheat' 125 as you would be riding an R6 or whatever you really want, also without Licence or Insurance.....

If you are happy to break these laws, for the sake of the few pennies you probably aren't saving, given that Sports 125's often cost MORE to run than 600's or 750's..... Well, MORE fools logic. You may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb, WHY bother, for the sake of maybe 10-15mph more illegal speed! These bikes may be impressive compared to a 65mph commuter 125, but compared to a 160mph 600? They are STILL not 'quick' or impressive machines to ANY-ONe who knows what they are looking at!

GET THE LICENCE and you can ride that 125 LEGALLY, you could ride the bike you REALLY WANT, LEGALLY, and it will probably be 'Cheaper'! If not, certainly be other bikes that will be!

THE EXCUSES KEEP COMING - But the answer always remains the same. If you want to ride a motorbike, then GET A LICENCE!

All of the excuses get blown away eventually, and it boils down to laziness and ignorance. Its not saving you anything, and the 'Learner-Restrictions' are ENTIRELY self imposed.

If you are OLD ENOUGH to ride a motorbike, if you can AFFORD to ride a motorbike; you are old enough and rich enough to take the tests and have ANY bike you want and can afford, NOT merely a Learner-Legal!

ALL for the sake of taking the tests and getting the PROPER licence.

The Motorcycle Test, Licence Categories & Age Restrictions

To gain a FULL moped or motorcycle licence, there are three tests.

Motorcycle Theory/Hazard Perception

Module 1 'Off-Road' practical test

Module 2 'On-Road' practical test.

These tests are conducted by the Driving Standards Agency, not the school you did CBT with. But the School may offer training to help you pass them.

As from January 19th 2013, there are three 'test schemes'; one for each category of motorcycle licence entitlement, to be applied to the two practical tests, Mod 1 & Mod 2. Plus one for moped entitlement. (Both Practical Tests Mods1 & Mod 2 must be taken on the same class of motorcycle.)

Category AM = Moped

You must be at least 16 years to ride a moped, and to take the full moped licence tests.

You may, upon completion of CBT ride a moped on provisional licence entitlement, without supervision, before passing the full motorcycle tests, though you must display L-Plates and may not carry a pillion passenger.

Test requires a vehicle conforming to the legal specifications of a 'Moped' (see:- What is a Moped?), briefly a 50cc motorcycle, that says 'Moped' on the Registration document! It may be any style of powered two wheeler, like a scooter or a sports-bike, it may be twist & go automatic or have gears; but it must be less than 50cc and not be capable of more than about 35mph.

Both tests must be taken, as for the motorcycle test, and The tests are identical to the motorcycle tests, though allowances are made for the lower performance of the vehicle; eg during the Mod 1 exercises, that normally require a serve and e-stop manoeuvre above proscribed speeds that a moped would not be expected to achieve.

Passing tests under this scheme is awarded with Full Category P licence entitlement, that allows you to ride a moped, which must still conform to moped power, speed and weight restrictions. But without L-Plates and you may carry pillion passengers. Note:- Mopeds may NOT use motorways, irrespective of whether the rider has a full licence of any category. (See also What Can I ride When I have Passed my Tests?)



Category A1 = 'Light Motorcycle'

You must be at least 17 years to ride an A1 category 'Light Motorcycle', and to take motorcycle tests under the A1 test scheme.

You may, upon completion of CBT, ride an A1 / Learner-Legal motorcycle on provisional licence entitlement, without supervision, before passing the full motorcycle tests, though you must display L-Plates and may not carry a pillion passenger, or use motorways.

Test requires a vehicle conforming to the 'Learner-Legal' Motorcycle ( see:- What is a 'Learner-Legal' Motorcycle?), Briefly a machine up to 125cc, with no more than 11Kw/14.5bhp power, but with minimum performance requirements for test; the machine must be over 120cc capacity and capable of 62mph. Again, the machine may be of any style; a scooter, commuter-bike, sports-bike, cruiser etc, and again, may have a twist & go automatic transmission or manual gears.

Passing tests under this scheme is awarded with Full Catagory A1 licence entitlement, that allows you to ride a motorcycle of the same performance specification as is 'Learner-Legal' essentially still an 11Kw/14.5bhp 125cc machine, but without L-Plates. You may also carry pillion passengers, and if you wish, use motorways. (See also What Can I ride When I have Passed my Tests?)

Category AM (moped) entitlement is automatically awarded with A1 entitlement, if not already held.

Catagory A2 = 'Middleweight Motorcycle' / Restricted Licence

You must be at least 19 years to ride an A2 category 'Middleweight Motorcycle', and to take motorcycle tests under the A2 test scheme.

Provisional-Licence entitlement remains that you may, upon completion of CBT, ride an A1 / Learner-Legal motorcycle, without supervision, before passing the full motorcycle tests, though you must display L-Plates and may not carry a pillion passenger, or use motorways.

You may, NOT however ride ANY motorcycle other machine, unsupervised, ahead of passing the full motorcycle test for higher groups (A2 or A3/Full A)

However, you MAY ride a machine compliant with A2 restrictions, on provisional entitlement, IF you are under supervision of a DSA approved Motorcycle Instructor, or DSA Motorcycle Examiner, whilst training or taking tests. (There is NO exemption to this to ride an A2 machine unsupervised to a motorcycle test)

Test requires a vehicle. of at least 395cc with a power output between 25 and 35 kW (33bhp and 46.6 bhp). No upper engine size limit, but the power to weight ratio must not exceed 0.2kW/kg and it must not be derived from a motorcycle of more than double its power. Again, the machine may be of any style; a scooter, commuter-bike, sports-bike, cruiser etc, and again, may have a twist & go automatic transmission or manual gears.

Passing tests under this scheme is awarded with Full Catagory A2 licence entitlement, that allows you to ride a motorcycle of ANY engine capacity, but no more than 35Kw (approx 47bhp.) And may not have a power to weight ratio higher than 0.2Kw per Kg. The machine may be restricted from a model that manufacturers standard specifications claims more than 35Kw, but the standard model may not male more than 2 times the power required for restriction. (See also What Can I ride When I have Passed my Tests?)

After Passing tests, you do not need to display L-Plates. You may also carry pillion passengers, and if you wish, use motorways.

Category AM (moped) entitlement, and Category A1 (125 Only Motorcycle) entitlement, is automatically awarded with A2 entitlement, if not already held.

Category A or A3 = Unrestricted Motorcycle / Direct Access Scheme (DAS)

You must be at least 24 years to ride an unrestricted A category Motorcycle and to take motorcycle tests under the A3 / DAS test scheme. OR you must have held an A2 category licence for a minimum of 2 years. (So, if you pass A2 tests when you are 19-21, you can test again for DAS before you are 24, as long as you have held A2 at least 2 years)

Provisional-Licence entitlement remains that you may, upon completion of CBT, ride an A1 / Learner-Legal motorcycle, without supervision, before passing the full motorcycle tests, though you must display L-Plates and may not carry a pillion passenger, or use motorways.

You may, NOT however ride ANY motorcycle other machine, unsupervised, ahead of passing the full motorcycle test for that group.

However, you MAY ride any machine on provisional entitlement, IF you are under supervision of a DSA approved Motorcycle Instructor, or DSA Motorcycle Examiner, whilst training or taking tests. (There is NO exemption to this to ride an A2 machine unsupervised to a motorcycle test)

Test requires a vehicle over 595cc with a power output of at least 40kw or (53.6bhp). From the end of 2013 the power output will change to at least 50 kW. A minimum weight of 180 kg will also apply. Again, the machine may be of any style; a scooter, commuter-bike, sports-bike, cruiser etc, and again, may have a twist & go automatic transmission or manual gears.

Passing tests under this scheme is awarded with Full Category A / A3 licence entitlement, that allows you to ride a motorcycle of ANY engine capacity or engine power output. This does not necessarily mean that you have to, or that it is a good idea, to jump on the biggest, fastest piece of machinery you can find! (See also What Can I ride When I have Passed my Tests?)

After Passing tests, you do not need to display L-Plates. You may also carry pillion passengers, and if you wish, use motorways.

Category AM (moped) entitlement, Category A1 (125 Only Motorcycle) entitlement, and Category A2 (33Kw or 47bhp 'restricted motorcycle) entitlement, is automatically awarded with full A / A3 entitlement, if not already held.

Automatic Transmission Restrictions

Pretty simple; you may test under any of the above test schemes, on a qualifying bike or scooter. Doesn't matter if it has a manual gear-box, or an automatic transmission, provided it meets other test requirements of engine displacement etc.

However IF you choose to use a machine that has an Automatic Transmission, for your tests, then again, you must use an auto for both Mod 1 and Mod 2 tests, AND if you pass both tests, your licence entitlement will be 'endorsed' with a restriction "Automatics Only", and you may NOT ride a geared machine.

Worth noting; The popular Honda C90 'Step-Through' commuter bike, has a three speed 'crunch' gear-box, and an automatic centrifugal clutch like a twist-and-go, and a number of contemporary motorcycles have engines derived from the old C90 motor, and retain the centrifugal clutch. Many now have a four speed gearbox, and have been bored out to a full A2 complient 125cc. The Honda Inova, is basically the successor to the C90 and has the 125cc 4-speed centrifugal clutch engine; but that engine & transmission is also used in many monkey-bikes, and pit-bikes, which are all A2 test compliant, if road-legal. However without a 'manual-clutch', a little digging with the DSA has revealed they are classed as 'Semi-Automatic' and hence testing on one will gain Auto-Only restriction, the same as testing on a twist & go. Bit of a pity that, as they DO have gears, but still.

When I gained my licence back in 1992, there was only one test scheme; you took the test on any 'learner-legal' motorcycle, up to 125cc that wasn't a moped, and you gained, straight away, a full unrestricted, ride what you like licence. They changed that, and until this year, you had to use a bike between 120 & 125cc, and do all three tests; and if you passed you got a restricted licence, that limited you to 33bhp machines for two years. But either way, it WAS possible to take tests on a 'Twist & Go' Automatic scooter, and gain a Full unrestricted ride what you like motorcycle licence with Auto-Only restriction... which was nie on useless; as there are almost NO automatic motorcycles over 125cc!

No one wants to spend a lot of money on a 125... consequently there is an awful lot of shit out there that can wear an L-Plate, becouse people wont pay for a decent bike, and wont spend time or money on one if they happen to have it, or even are clued up enough to know how; they are learner bikes, so many dont know much at all.

If you want a 125 you have to pay to get a decent one.

And if you want a 'good start' they are worth it.

Most important bike you will buy. Yeah, big bikes are where you want to be, and we can deliberate till the cows come home whether a CBR600 ir better than a YZF600, and which has the better suspension or brakes.... bottom line is that on a bike like that YOU the average punter that buys one for the road will NEVER apreciate the small differences between them, let alone be able to exploit any small advantage they might have, YET these things are 'important' and get a lot of debate and consideration...

the 125 you learn on, the ONE bike where having decent wheels under your arse, so that while you are learning, any wobbling going on is down to YOU and you alone, not some unknown problem with the bikes suspension or steering or suspension; and putting it right isn't pissing in the dark, wondering if its a loose bolt, a worn tyre, a clapped out damper, or you doing something daft....

Get a GOOD 125, and only thing that can make it wobble is YOU.

Makes learning that much easier; makes it an awful lot nicer, makes it a heck of a lot more FUN.

When you have a licence and you have some idea what you are doing... THEN you can actually get away with a slightly more 'tired' bike, that doesn't behave itself so well, becouse you KNOW any wobbling going on at that point is down to the bike, not you!

If you want a good start and you want a 125... well they are, from the start compromised little bikes; compromised by low displacement, low powered engines; compromised by low weight and price constraints; you really dont want more or specifically more unnecessary compromises in a machine that is already hugely compromised.

So, get as good as you can afford.

And YES, buy prices are expensive. SO you have to find more money when you buy.

But buy prices are expensive. SO you'll get more money BACK when you sell....

Best Value For Money 'Training Tool' around at the moment is the Yamaha YBR125.

New they are nudging three grand; which is about 2/3 the price of some more 'posey' 125's like the Yamaha YZF R125 race replica, or the Cruiser style Dragstar, and still a fair bit cheaper than the dirt-bike style XT125.

It is, also three times the price of a generic Chinesebranded 'Bike in a Box'.... but difference is it will still be worth something after you have attached a number-plate and it WILL do 65mph!

Brand new, is the 'best' you can get as far as reliability and known oragin, and working as good as it should, with peace of mind that you have a warranty.

BUTY you pay heavily in depreciation, and a year in, a £2800 YBR is probably worth barely £2K... two years in it will be around £1700, and at three years, around £1500.

First MOT is due at three years, and three or four year old models, priced between £1000 and £1500, are about the vest valkue you can get in the learner legal market.

They have lost all that horrible depciation, and are a half the price they were new. They also have that first MOT to give some confidence that they haven't been thrashed to death in MOT exemption period, and at ABOUT halfd their anticipated service life, probably less than half anticipated life miles will tend to have enough life in them to still be pretty tought and solid and dependable, and not be too wobbly.

Means that buy-sell risk is low. Risk is they wont need much if any thing by way of expensive maintenence or repairs; they will work well for a year or so, and can be sold, for little loss on buy price, cost of ownership, very small, tending to negligible.

So, a £1500 YBR bought, ridden and sold within a year for £1300 costs just £200.

A £900 Chinese Bike in a Box, sold a year on, is lucky to fetch £500, so would have cost £400 and not been as nice to ride or own in the mean time.

A twenty year old CG125 that costs £400, could demand £400's worth of work to get it out of the delapidation of maintenence overdraft old learner-legal commuters so frequently drop into.... might sell for £400, so only cost £400 but still just as expensive as a Bike in a Box, and twice as expensive as a YBR.... abd big risk it wont fix, or if its not fixed, you will get a years intermittent use out of it for your money and have a pile of scrap left at the end of it.

There are few bargains about in the Learner Legal market; but there can be, if you are prepared to pay for them 'up-front'...

That YBR, bought for £1300 selling for £1100 costs you £200, and still leaves you enough cash to go get a very useful 'big-bike', if thats what you want.

So where should you go now?

Well, experience is good, but bad experience isn't!

Straight out of CBT, you can go get a 125 and ride around for two years, learning by your mistakes... which can hurt.... and if twenty five years trials riding has tought me ONE thing, its teenagers bounce better! Older you get, more falling off seems to HURT!

Also not likely to teach you much about how to pass a test, though might boost your confidence a bit.

alternative is to skip 125's and do DAS, which for most means an intensive course of between three and five days, riding around with an instructor telling you what to do through an ear-piece,m giving you lots of false confidence, and taking a lot of money off you to do little more than fullfill legal requirement to supervise you riding a 'big-bike' before qualified... and I dont say that glibly, until recently I WAS an instructor.... Intensive DAS courses are a lot of money to satisfy impatience!

Once you have done your DAS course, where you will have been tought little about surviving the world of big bikes, but given a lot ot test-tricks to get you through tests, and what you might have learned about survival riding, you probably wont remember, fast in, fast out, in the cramming going on, and with little real experience to give any of it meaning or relevence......

You will come out with a full licence able to jump straight onto any bike you like, and ride it unsupervised....

And a few moments after you do so.... you will be wondering, "What do I DO!..... Theres no voice in my ear to tell me what to DO!... what did the bloike say about box junctions! I cant remember!"

This is not good, and you will be like a CBT fresh newbie on a 125, left to learn by your own mistakes...... only instead of it being a 10 or 14bhp 125, with a 60-70mph top speed..... it COULD be a 1000cc hyper bike that can out accelerate an F1 car, and reach 180mph before you can actually THINK! "Oh Shit!"

NOT! that 125's are, by dint of restricted performance MUCH better.

Often dismissed as 'Toy' or 'Kiddie Bikes', they are still credible motorcyles. You may have noted from the sig-line below I have a little fleet of them; and they are ALL fast enough to exceed national speed limit. and they are ALL quick enough to out accelerate MOST traffic. They will even stay with moderately fast cars, driven with spirit point to point, if I try hard enough.

Even a 125 has enough performance to get you into a LOT of trouble....

BUT, they do have merit. They will get you into trouble slower, and they will TEND to give you more warning, and they will TEND to demand more effort from you to be so foolish!

Bike bikes you CAN take liberties with; they have more weight, which can make them more daunting, but that mass also gives them momentum, which means it damps clumsiness and flatters poor riding, a lightweight will show up much more clearly. More power and more flexible engines will also demand less work from the rider, so again, let you get away with more, and be more lazy.

So 125s DO have merit as a training tool, they will treated with respect help you develop balence and control more acutely.

BUT, getting on and getting out, learning by mistakes is not great.

Intensive DAS courses get you a licence, but thats pretty much al they do, and can leave you on something very scary to learn by errors.

If you go 125, and its my reccomended route;' book weekly lessons on your own bike, to back up CBT, and Learn by other peoples mistakes and accumulated wisdom!

It hurts less! and doesn't take many skuffed exhausts or broken brake levers before its cost less too!

A two hour lesson; gives you enough time to learn something, without it being a blurr of information.

You then have all the time you want to go practice what you have learned, on your own time; get it sussed, and go back. AND with some road riding between lessons, more experience to give what you are tought meaning and relevence that also helps it 'stick'.

Better still though; that experience can direct questions to ask your instructor, to milk thier knowledge for all its worth, and get stuff you would NEVER get on an Intensive DAS, simpoly becouse no one would think to tell you, and you dont know enough to ask!

For a complete beginner, seven or eight two hour, weekly lessons ought to be all you need to get to test standard AND have some good arsenol of learning to survive behind it.

You now have choice becouse just becouse you TRAIN on a 125 doesn't mean you have to TEST on a 125, and you could test under DAS rules, to get ful lunrestricted A group licence.

No worries if you want, you can save pennies (at the moment; new laws come into force in a year) and test on your own 125, which will give you a full A group licence but with 2-year probationary 33bhp power limit.

This is 'enough' to be useful and if you didn'ty envissage stepping up to hyper bike at the earliest, gives plenty of options, and most 500 commuter twins, good for over 100mph and no small risk to licence, if restricted (standard they are around 45bhp and good for possibly 120mph)

This is the good way around; BUT if you are ardent on a DAS course, forwarned about the lost voices syndrome; and the DAS pass death rate amongst older riders on bigger bikes, and want to substitute for post test training, thats another way around it.

From where you are; cant make your choices for you; or make them any easier, just give you the right ideas... just when training some-one I can teach them to ride, I can teach them survival techniques, how they apply them after, really up to them..

I merely point out that they set the bench-mark standard to judge the alternatives, and as an all-round compromise, they ARE a very hard package to better.

My personal opinion of them as a 'motorcycle', is that they are possibly one of THE most boring, uninspiring and generally soulless motorcycles ever created... geez even the old Honda CB100N had 'some' sort of charecter...... you cant even ridicule them for thier styling! They are just... JUST... well, about the only thing you can say about them is "Well, at least its not a scooter!" And even in that anathmic world of engineering perversity there are machines that stand out, and have some 'interest'!

BUT, the YBR is not the be-all and end all and a paragon of motorcycling, it's about as inspiring as a washing machine.

Actually I have got more exited by a washing machine... I even had one with more charecter... used to jump out and mug me every time I had to walk past it to go to the loo!

But; like a washing machine.... it does the job.

The appeal of the YBR is in those numbers, that make it the least-risk, generally most cost effective way into biking.

Practically; its a no frills bike; there are plenty of them around; its an easy ride machine; just as many of them about; Its a 'dependable' low maintenance machine; fair few of them in the arena too. But there aren't MANY that wrap all that in one cost effective solution. Honda CBF comes close. but not 'quite' so economically.

Representing such a very very well 'optimised' package, of such keen 'value', (even brand new, they are not as bad as some!) its hard to beat, and I plaud it, msainly becouse if you want to go for something different, it sets the base line to illustrate how and where the compromise is being shifted.

Often reccomended, and much loved by more mature Learners; Honda Veradaro. Nice bike. But expensive. Physically large; its nice and comfy, especially for larger riders, and looks like a 'big-bike'. Down sides, are its not so ecconomical; its a tad more powerful, but not much faster; Size can make it bulky, and harder to manouver, while taller seat and higher centre of gravity mean its not SO easy to swing through test cones. Practically, doesn't push the compromises too far, as a learner commuter; except in area of costs. But again, more expensive, you pay more, but get more back. But not AS ecconomical on running costs as a YBR, so cost of ownership likely to be higher; while Honda spares and lots of plastic; any repairs likely to be expensive.

Going Daft; Aprillia RS125. One of the most expensive LEarner Legals on the market. Actually on DSA approval list with warnings that demand examiner must see 'valid' proof of restriction before letting you sit test on one; becouse they are a highly strung 28bhp race bike with lights. Physically large, they look like a bigger bike, and unrestricted they go like one. Bludy expensive to run though; 70mpg is 'good' going, and you have to chuck 15p's worth of high grade two stroke oil in the oil reservoir for every £1.35liter of petrol! Race crouch riding possition isn't so comfortable; restricts visibility and makes observations, and making clear obviouse Examiner approved observations harder work. Great brakes for e-stop, but horendouse steering lock for cone work, and riding possition that doesn't give best control. We then get to the matter of running costs and pistons listed as service spares. They demand a lot of maintenence; new they are expensive; and looked after to the service schedule effoff expensive. "nd hand; thrashed by a few no-little kiddie-go-kwick owners, often struggling to keep up with the HP installments, and more interested in spending money to go faster, rather than not break down; they get even MORE expensive to run, ignoring that service schedule, becouse costs are too high for so many owners to bear. Probably one of the worst learner bikes you can get; pushing the compromises SO far to get style and an idea of 'performance'.

Yamaha XT125. Dirt bike. Four stroke single cylinder engine, its a YBR on stilts and knoblies. Compromised for off-road work, and on-road work its never going to be master of either. Not bad, and off-road riding can be fun. But bending bikes falling off on dirt (they DO bend; another thing 25 years trials riding has tought me!) dents budget, and doesn't bode well for a 'smart' bike to turn up to test on! Nible geometry makes them easier than many to hustle through cones; but that advantage hedged by higher CofG making it mnore precariouse; and knobly tyres and soft suspension making it less sure footed; most on manouveres like the e-stop. Pretty robust in low speed 'spill' though. Again, compormise is being skewed, and both performance and easy riding being compromised for style and off-road ability.

Honda Shaddow; Cruiser; a little Harley. Lots of style; and lots of money. New they are over four grand. Look big to people that dont know any better; and look 'cool' to misguided cruiser fans. But little 125cc engine they DONT 'cruise' engine that takes three gear changes to get to 30mph does not suggest a 'lazy' easy ride a cruiser ought to be. The added weight they carry makes them slow, and hard work to manouver; and the lazy chopperesque riding possition and steering geometry and long wheel base REALLY make them hard work to get through cones, do U turns and generall do whats needed for lessons and test.

Could carry on down the list; but you get the idea; moving away from the regulation 'learner-coimmuter' you are frequently loosing more than you gain, or paying through the nose for it, or both!

The old CG125 is worth mention; now a 'Cult' bike, the 'decent' £300 CG, is a long lost myth. With the reputation of being bullet-proof or nie on indestructable; too many have become victims of thier own reputation; bought as cheap learner-commuter wheels, with 'low maintenence' becoming 'no-maintenence' owners loath to spend money on a bike they dont intend to keep,m and only bought because it was cheap. Decent ones now fetch particularly 'daft' money for what they are, on the legacy of the reputation; and you can spend as much on a half tidy CG as a much newer and probably more useful YBR. Down in the bargain basement; they are flogging scrappers for the money that would get you road worthy (if not 'nice) wheels of other make or model.

Yamaha YZF R125; the latest four stroke Kiddie Go Kwik, must have teenage loonie bike; Few on the second hand market becouse they are so new; Still close to £5K show-room price. All looks not much performance. Compromised like an Aprillia for rideability, without the boon of cheap power doubling de-restriction. Bit easier on consumeables though; but already seen bikes out there 'written off' for a low speed spill just cracking the fairlings! All for the price of a Suzuki SV650!

Honda's CBR125, by comparison makesa a lot more sense if you want that 'kind' of style. Its not the full monty, and CBR doesn't make much pretense at being more than a lamb in toys r us wolf-cub outfit. Not as compromised for rideability, but still 'some'. Easier on spares and service, but still more expensive than pure commuters; but does offer a couple of extra mph. And costs CAN be 'not so bad' rated against learner commuters; they are another variation on the compromise, and not skewing it so far, not prove too hard a one to bear, but its still a compromise.

So into the bargain basement; Mentioned CG's. But loads of different 'stuff' in there. And most of it, I would find hard to reccomend to a complete newbie, simply becouse so little is in useful, reliable, confidence inspiring condition. There are some machines worth thought though.

Chinese bike-in-a-box; £900 new, they are dirt cheap second hand; usually with good reason; they have fallen to bits! BUT, if you have some idea how to tighten bolts, adjust bearings and dont mind getting your hands a bit dirty; or even masocistically enjoy it (like me!), for £3-400 picking a bike thats managed to get through at least one MOT, and you can ride value out of it, as long as you dont expect the full performance of Jap branded bikes, can buck the odds and prove cheap long term commuter wheels.

If you JUST want a bike to get experience on, possibly do some training; you dont want to use it for tests; hiring a school bike, possibly a DAS bike; then the sub 120cc machines can be very useful.

The old 80's Two-Stroke 100's were great little bikes; Until early 90's you could take tests on them, but rule change means that for last twenty years if you want full A-Group you have to test on full size 125. But when they were testable; they offered almost the performance of full 125's and a lower insurance group, and frequently lower running costs. Still offer that; BUT like the CG, bought as budget learners, often didn't get the maintenence they deserved. Have thier fans now though, and again, if you know a rubber band from a power band and spannies from spandex and dont mind getting your hads dirty or enjoy it; they can be bought for reletive penies, and prove easy mechanics and a lot of fun.

Its in my sig-line; Honda CB125 'Super-Dream'; ought to mention it. Probably the most thoroughly considered; best engineered, most sophisticated; most capable, 'Do everything' Learner 125 ever made... it was concieved as a sports-bike to go head to head with its two stroke rivals of the era on performance; and it succeeded. Concervatively styled, it was intended to still be comfy and give you a command riding possition like a commuter, with good balence control and visability, BUT still be comfy and comfy enough for long er runs, even touring..... it was a great bike.... but looked boring and it was over priced... and today, big grin factor for masocists like me to get one working like it should... I have done two this year... but GEEZ! Been a heck of a lot cheaper and easier to have just bought YBR's! Most out there are pretty dire; I know I own most of them!

Also in Sig line, Yamaha DT125. Its a legend. Mines a late 70's air cooled model. Actually more powerful than later water cooled bikes in restricted form. Mine is a classic. But they are all 'road bikes' with knoblies, more at home on tarmac than dirt, and main atraction is the reletively reliable, and easily tuned two stroke engine that can offer around 20bhp, and not blow up as often as things like Aprillias or Cagivas. Hold value well, and work pretty good for a dirt bike. BUT, compromised being a dirt bike, and the later ones especially are no where near as mechanically freindly as other options, while most will have suffered the tuning attempts of teenage tits over the years, and can be a 'challenge' to scrub up and make good!

YBR's aren't the be all and end all of Learner-Bikes, and I dont make the kind of comments people are want to, like they do about CG's, that they are tough as boot, or you cant go wrong with one.

They aren't indestructable; and you can buy a lemmon as easy as any other bike. BUT.... on the whole, they are a damn well balenced compromise, and almost perfectly optimised as a learner-commuter, and possibly the least risk, best value route into motorcycling...

But they are a washing machine; a tool for the job, and not hugely inspiring for anything BUT doing the job, and doing it cheaply.

Great if you have the money to buy into that bargain; and you are happy to make those short term sacrifices having somethiung so utterly utiliterian, for long term gains of making it cheap and easy to get licence before stepping up to something more exiting.

Otherwise; there are plenty of other alternatives; to suit budget and aspirations, that can work, or be made to work just as well for any one.

But the YBR DOES set the standard for them to meet....

Battery acts as charge reservoir; capacitor acts as charge damper.
Imagine a capacitor as a spring in a brake line; transmits the force but takes out any shock in the line; where a reservoir would accumulate pressure and let it be used for longer.

I have 6v electric Yamaha DT, and am messing around with a 12v pit bike regulator, to convert to 12v. Generator is supposed to chuck out enough volts, and using both coils, the charge circuit and direct lighting circuit, ought to provide enough amps to keep small 12v battery charged to power 12v lights without the low rev 'drop of' direct lights suffer, while 12v offers more compatability for modern upgrades like LED's to lower power demand and make more juice available; possibly even a PIR headlamp for more light without less amps still.

This may be possible on the CB125 single's generator.

Alternatively; sticking with 6v, knowing 6v systems of old, even with a battery low rev lamp dimming is a pain. Many bikes of the era ran 'direct lights' so they didn't get any top up from the battery so were entirely dependent on genny revs for volts; battery only powered occassional equipment like horn and indicators.

Using a 6v regulator, possibly from an early 6v CB200 Benley, and routing direct light circuit and charge circuit through it to charge a battery to power all equipment, including lights, would be a good move, and make electrics more reliable.

Another alternative, still being toyed with for the DT, is if the genny and pit-bike regulator dont prove good enough to convcert to 12v... going 12v 'low amp' conversion anyway, using LED bulbs for indicators, dash tell-tales, side, tail & stop lamp, and a solid state low consumption indicator flasher, and a 35W PIR headlamp, and running the system 'Total Loss', having two batteries; one on the bike, one on charge in the house!

Lights dont HAVE to be self sufficient....

On a 78 model bike; you also don't HAVE to have indicators, and need only have the brake lamp work of one brake lever.

Two types of battery commonly out there

Standard batteries are wet acid filled. They have to be mounted terminals to the top or the acid sloshes out through vents.

'Sealed' batteries are often wet acid filled, but unvented. These tend not to have the charge/discharge rating of vented batteries, and are not usually reccomended for bikes or cars. Competition bikes and cars often use Sealed 'Gel' batteries that have an acidic gelly (yes basically you make a jelly like you would for a trifle of kids birthday party, but with sulphuric acid rather than water! And fill the battery with it!) More stable, can be mounted in any orientation to suit, and wont slosh acid. But expensive.

For your wants, I would sugest that a sealed, preferably gel-cell battery, of the same or greater amp-hour capacity, would be more suitable. You can find a place to site it to convenience, and tilt it to suit. Meanwhile, need not be bigger than original; external dimensions can be smaller on modern batteries.

If you are not putting heavy charge or discharge rates on the battery; if you have currently a direct lighting system, battery charged by excess genny amps at a trickle to power indies and horn, you probably could get away with a 6v 'sealed' burglar alarm battery; these are fairly cheap on e-bay, but check Maplins for specs and dimensions; they are designed to hawve very long service lifes, typically around ten years, but with very low charge and discharge rates, sat in a box on the side of a house providing independent suply for a lamp and claxon if the alarm goies off and the mains supply is cut. They are commonly de-rated for consumer products; thier life expectancy shortened, exceeding the specified charge and discharge rates, for use in things like car battery 'booster' packs, or kids ride on toys and stuff; Charge rates exponentailly reduce battery life, so double the charge/discharge current, battery life drops by a quarter, BUT, you can go quite a long way before you are down to the one or two years 'life' of a conventional bike battery.

If you want least-fuzz, solution, keeping the electrics 'as standard' but able to put battery where you like; I think this is what I would suggest as most suitable; Burglar Alarm battery in the 3-5Ah capacity range your CB-J battery is likely to be in, probably barely any difference in price to the OE spec wet & vented battery.

Depends how adventurouse you want to get; BUT do have a think about going 12v. With low wattage LED's sucking milli-amps instead of amps, you can make a small capacity 12v battery last a long time, even if you run it 'total loss'; and you have far more scope to start choosing from far more 'standard' 12v equipment, thats often better and or cheaper than whats available in now rarely used 6v components.

The UK CB125TD- Super-Dream is de-tuned to the old 13.5bhp learner limit.
Unless it runs readily off the end of the speedo, it probably isn't making that due to normal wear & tear and neglect.
Well fettled UK 'Reduced Effect' models will top a genuine 70, and put the speedo needle well past the last tick at 80.

The 142cc big-bore kit is the largest piston size you can get into the standard 125 barel's liner. The extra 17cc is fuck all.

They can be bored bigger; other variants of the engine have been stretched by the factory as far as 233cc for the CM250 or CB-Two-Fifty. But not without machining the crank-cases to fit bigger liner barels.

Head is good enough to flow the air needed to make almost double the power of the Reduced Effect UK Super-Dream; so you cant really gain anything by trying to hack the ports bigger with a dremel; and the valves are about as big as can possibly be crammed in the combustion chamber as it stands.

What limits the power on them is the cam-shaft. And unfortunately, there aren't very many options here by way of after-market hop-up profiles. Best we have is the factory;s 'Full-Power' cam which, on a well built engine, and with properly set up and sized carbs can, on the 125 bottom end achieve 17bhp. However these cams are rarer than rocking horse do-dah. The correct carbs to go with them even rarer.

Can bore the thing as far as you like, really, even the whole hog, bored and stroked to 233cc, you wont easily better the power JUST that camshaft offers.

The biggest 'family' engine using the CB125's 41mm stroke, was the over-square screamer CB200 motor, whose barrels are inconveniently incompatible with the 125 bottom end, and which only just made same power as full-power 125.

The most powerful of the 233 engines was the CMX Rebel, that I think was rated at about 21bhp, running paired CV carbs, on a 360 bottom end. CB-two-fifty chucked out about 19 depending on who you ask, on a single carb, but crank-cases opened up, to take bigger barrels, long stroke 360 crank, these engines dont offer solutions to tune a 125 super-dream as micing bits between 360 crank and 180 crank engines will result in mashed valves the cam opening valves on an up-stroke when crank ought to be doing a down stroke.

So.... 142cc? For a tenner, it ent going to hurt; but any more power you may get is going to be mostly from new piston & rings and rebuild finding more compression, not the extra cubes!

But for a tenner?

Had three barel sets in the last twelve months and done as many rebuilds. I didn't bother with the 142 kit. Keeping the stock bore size keeps things a known quantity, and saves a few penies.

Budget around £200 minimum, for gaskets, cam-chain & barel kit. You are advised to swap case seals too. And worthwhile new cam-chain tensioner blades. While you have it apart you can get seriouse and start spending seriouse money; roughlt £200 to get crank presed apart and re-assembled with new bearings and then re-balenced. Then theres the oil pump, clutch (worth douing, new plates & springs less than £20), gearbox bearings, etc. All mounts up, and if you skimp 'too' much you as like have to do it all again!

TBH with that list you are on a break-point.

Its not worth £300 as a dire runner, though you might get it, if you are lucky. If it has tax and test, its worth £250 to a nieve optimist (or a not so nieve, but ever hopeful dissolusionist optimist, like me!)

Top end rebuild it, you WILL be spending £120, and its a bastard if they go together nice and easy... because if it goes together easy, means cam-chain is stretched and it WILL snap!

Add £50 for decent second hand exhaust, you are up to £200 region.

Value bike at £250 and you are nudging over the £400 'value' and you still haven't sorted tyres, or the bottom end, or I suspect a host of other bits its likely to need sorting, like brakes and steering bearings and fork-seals.

These things are worth around £750 top book, for a 'good' example.

You can get Taxed, Tested Runners for around £500... though possibly not THAT much better than what you have.

SO... chucking the sort of meney this bikes likely to 'need' chucking at it to make it 'reliable'...

Will you get the value out of it, becouse you are going to HAVE to get the value out of it by using it, you are unlikely to get it selling...

[bacon]

Fuck a duck, did you just copy/paste the history of Tef??

[Ste]

[Riejufixing]

My God! I was going to try and stay off the drink tonight, too!

[m1tch]

Wow - thank you so much for your response - will take some time to read through it all!

[rpsmith79]

[Johnnythefox]

Could someone post a proper in depth piece and not Tefs skimpy 'gloss over'?

[pepperami]

jeez! , I think that about covers everything
____________________
I am the sum total of my own existence, what went before makes me who I am now!

[Fizzoid]

Wow that's quite some Teffing there Ste!
____________________
Rogerborg wrote: It'd certainly make it easier to ego-find my own posts on pages, given the number of fags (gay like traps) who insist on putting my name in their .sig

[BusterGonads]

Why did he do that?

[Ste]

[Riejufixing]

OH!!!!

[BusterGonads]