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Hawkeye1250FA
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PostPosted: 13:52 - 17 Oct 2018    Post subject: Universal Credit - enlighten me... Reply with quote

So I've read a few bits and pieces (from both sides) on it. But still can't figure out why it's such a big bone of contention for loads of people.

Can someone on here explain (with links ideally) why it's being ripped apart by labour / the general public?

Is it just because the rollout was handled incredibly badly? Or is it actually shit at a fundamental level?
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 14:47 - 17 Oct 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well it's a stupid idea trusting long term dole scum with large amounts of money in one hit for a start.
It's already been in place in some areas for a while. I'm sure where I live, it's over a year now that rent has been paid by the state, as part of Universal Credit, direct to the dole scum instead of direct to the landlord.

According to my sister, who works for a letting agent and another estate agent customer, for many long term benefits scroungers, the temptation to spunk over a grand in benefits up the wall without spending it on what it's meant to be spent on, is too great.

The idea from the government is supposed to be to get people unused to working for a living, used to having a large amount of money once a month and learning how to budget it, just as anyone on a salary would have to.
The result inevitably is generally a week out partying and on the slash, shopping, drugs, then 3 weeks at food banks.

Ask any letting agent with DSS tenants in areas where this is already in place for housing benefit and they'll tell you the same.
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Hawkeye1250FA
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PostPosted: 14:55 - 17 Oct 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting that the right side of the spectrum feel it's a bad idea?! I hadn't considered that tbh.

I assumed anything that coerced "dole scroungers" to work was good. 🤔

Most of the complaints I've heard are from the people recieving it in one way or another.
- not enough money
- received too late
- less than I had previously
- takes too long to set up
Etc.

Didn't we all do the "piss our monthly wage up a wall in the first week" thing at first and then slowly figured it out / grew up?
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 15:06 - 17 Oct 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hawkeye1250FA wrote:
Interesting that the right side of the spectrum feel it's a bad idea?! I hadn't considered that tbh.

I assumed anything that coerced "dole scroungers" to work was good. 🤔

Most of the complaints I've heard are from the people recieving it in one way or another.
- not enough money
- received too late
- less than I had previously
- takes too long to set up
Etc.

Didn't we all do the "piss our monthly wage up a wall in the first week" thing at first and then slowly figured it out / grew up?


There's a difference between spending your own money and money which isn't yours in the first place.
It's not going to encourage long term spongers to work, it just gives them the chance to blow a large amount of cash in one go, then claim poverty from the nasty capitalists and claim more freebies, until their next "pay day".

It doesn't work. I know plenty of people, family and friends who are trying to deal with the lack of payments to landlords because of this scheme. Why should any benefits go direct to the claimant, when in reality it should end up in someone else's pockets?
Want people coerced back into work, introduce benefits charge cards, which can only be spent on essentials, not fags, drugs and booze.
It's supposed to be a safety net, not a way of living without needing to work or add to society, yet still affording luxuries such as smart phones, fags, booze, etc.
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Hawkeye1250FA
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PostPosted: 15:22 - 17 Oct 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I get the gist. 👍

It does seem though that you could be considered tarring all people on benefits with the same brush? Would you not agree?

I'm a bit more moderate. Similar thought process - but I'm also assuming that a percentage of people will actually use it correctly and learn to budget etc etc etc.

Anyone got any stats?
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Ste
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PostPosted: 15:37 - 17 Oct 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 CPT wrote:
introduce benefits charge cards, which can only be spent on essentials, not fags, drugs and booze.

Which would just create another black market.
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 15:46 - 17 Oct 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hawkeye1250FA wrote:
I get the gist. 👍

It does seem though that you could be considered tarring all people on benefits with the same brush? Would you not agree?

I'm a bit more moderate. Similar thought process - but I'm also assuming that a percentage of people will actually use it correctly and learn to budget etc etc etc.

Anyone got any stats?


Unemployment isn't the issue really, it's just a symptom of shipping the jobs offshore. How many waiters, recruitment consultants, PPI callers and diversity managers can one country reasonably need?

As for UC its just about rolling benefits into a single wage and eliminating the benefits gap where benefits end and work begins, but by starting work you end up worse off. If you just claim unemployment then university credit = job seekers allowance, but if you claim a range of benefits then UC is different. Personally I would just go with the universal basic income approach and put the civil servants back into the real economy. If they want to offers people on benefits skills sessions either get recruitment companies to do it, or even ask private companies to help out.
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Monkeywrenche...
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PostPosted: 16:18 - 17 Oct 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ste wrote:
mpd72 CPT wrote:
introduce benefits charge cards, which can only be spent on essentials, not fags, drugs and booze.

Which would just create another black market.


Is there a black market for exchanging luxuries for essentials though?

Sure essentials for luxuries but what's in it for the Black marketeer selling drugs for food vouchers?
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Last edited by Monkeywrencher on 16:19 - 17 Oct 2018; edited 1 time in total
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linuxyeti
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PostPosted: 16:18 - 17 Oct 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im-a-Ridah wrote:


Unemployment isn't the issue really, it's just a symptom of shipping the jobs offshore. How many waiters, recruitment consultants, PPI callers and diversity managers can one country reasonably need?

.


There are plenty of jobs around, a shortage is some areas, it has nothing to do with off shoring, unemployment levels are historically low values, what, it largely boils down to, unfortunately, is white british at least 2nd or 3rd generation living on benefits, not being prepared to work, and, certainly not being prepared to lose out, on uc & earning in work, for, which I do have some sympathy with. And, for all the bleating about pip, and how unfair it is, I know of 2 familes in our street that milk it for all it's worth, and trust me, there isn't really any valid reason for them to have it. At assessment time, they make themselves appear far worse than they are, 1 even went down the route of 3 appeals, to get the money back.. Just imagine if they'd put that effort into actual work, that would ultimately benefit society & the tax payer !!
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linuxyeti
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PostPosted: 16:20 - 17 Oct 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkeywrencher wrote:


Is there a black market for exchanging luxuries for essentials though?



Soon would be, just look at the market economy in prisons ...
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Ste
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PostPosted: 16:28 - 17 Oct 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkeywrencher wrote:
Is there a black market for exchanging luxuries for essentials though?

Sure essentials for luxuries but what's in it for the Black marketeer selling drugs for food vouchers?

If benefits were paid as food stamps then there would be.

What's in it for the black marketer? Profit.
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Monkeywrenche...
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PostPosted: 16:33 - 17 Oct 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ste wrote:
Monkeywrencher wrote:
Is there a black market for exchanging luxuries for essentials though?

Sure essentials for luxuries but what's in it for the Black marketeer selling drugs for food vouchers?

If benefits were paid as food stamps then there would be.

What's in it for the black marketer? Profit.


Right so I've got my Prepaid card topped up with clothing and food points for major retailers, I want some drugs, does the dealer except spuds and jumpers, albeit at great exchange rates then go and sell them on a market every weekend?
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Monkeywrenche...
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PostPosted: 16:35 - 17 Oct 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

linuxyeti wrote:
Monkeywrencher wrote:


Is there a black market for exchanging luxuries for essentials though?



Soon would be, just look at the market economy in prisons ...


Are they swapping their toothpaste and crisps for spice?
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Hawkeye1250FA
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PostPosted: 16:35 - 17 Oct 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

So a few people have mentioned that being on UC + going to work makes you worse off than just being on UC...

Can you clarify please?

I understood (possibly incorrectly) that the whole point of it was to tempt people back into work.

Can't you work as many hours as you like on UC as opposed to the max 16 now (where your benefits disappear instantly)?

How can working 30hours a week combined with UC be less than UC on its own? - this is what I don't get.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 16:43 - 17 Oct 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkeywrencher wrote:
Right so I've got my Prepaid card topped up with clothing and food points for major retailers, I want some drugs, does the dealer except spuds and jumpers, albeit at great exchange rates then go and sell them on a market every weekend?

Where there's a will, there's a way.

Do dealers accept spuds and jumpers? Rolling Eyes What do you think? They'll accept things that they want or that they can easily sell, so no, you're not getting any drugs in exchange for your spuds and jumpers.
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Hawkeye1250FA
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PostPosted: 16:46 - 17 Oct 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

And let's be honest, someone would soon crack whatever encryption they used on the cards and clone them / find a way of topping up illegally etc.
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 16:58 - 17 Oct 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hawkeye1250FA wrote:
I get the gist. 👍

It does seem though that you could be considered tarring all people on benefits with the same brush? Would you not agree?

I'm a bit more moderate. Similar thought process - but I'm also assuming that a percentage of people will actually use it correctly and learn to budget etc etc etc.

Anyone got any stats?


The problem is, the ones who have never worked, being given everything for free and have no idea on budgeting, who are the very people this scheme was supposed to convert, are the least likely it will work on.
If people are currently on benefits, but have previously worked full time and had to budget their money in the past, they will already be aware of how to do it.

So, yes, generally the people it's aimed at helping are largely beyond help and have no intention of getting off their arse and working for a living.

This scheme has failed miserably wherever I hear it in operation, the biggest issue being housing benefit no longer reaching the landlord, but guaranteed by the local council, so the tax payer often end up paying twice.
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 17:04 - 17 Oct 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ste wrote:
Monkeywrencher wrote:
Is there a black market for exchanging luxuries for essentials though?

Sure essentials for luxuries but what's in it for the Black marketeer selling drugs for food vouchers?

If benefits were paid as food stamps then there would be.

What's in it for the black marketer? Profit.


Yes, the food vouchers would be exchanged at such a low rate, they'd be worth well over the exchange price. In the end with supply and demand, the price would drop so low, it wouldn't be worth black marketing them.

This will either push people into work to get luxuries or create a load of staving druggies. Oh hang on, isn't that why food banks and "period poverty" is such a popular victim creation venture now?

You know, with tampons being 5 fecking pence each and food being very cheap in this country if you can be arsed to prepare it yourself?
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 17:06 - 17 Oct 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hawkeye1250FA wrote:
And let's be honest, someone would soon crack whatever encryption they used on the cards and clone them / find a way of topping up illegally etc.


Do you have a debit card? How would this be any different?

It's a benefits account card, which can only be spent on certain products. If you want it to be non luxuries, just make retailers only take for VAT free goods. It would be easy to set their tills to do this.
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Hawkeye1250FA
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PostPosted: 17:31 - 17 Oct 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 CPT wrote:
Hawkeye1250FA wrote:
And let's be honest, someone would soon crack whatever encryption they used on the cards and clone them / find a way of topping up illegally etc.


Do you have a debit card? How would this be any different?

It's a benefits account card, which can only be spent on certain products. If you want it to be non luxuries, just make retailers only take for VAT free goods. It would be easy to set their tills to do this.


Hmm, I think you are over simplifying. It would need to be substantially different from a debit card to limit it to specific goods. Not to mention all someone would need to do in your above solution is sell fags and booze under the table using barcodes for equivalent priced food and electricity. Very easily done.

And yes people do clone debit cards now, so I'm not sure about all of your argument tbh.

I'm not against it, but we don't have the infrastructure at the moment to police it. 👍
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 18:27 - 17 Oct 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 CPT wrote:
Hawkeye1250FA wrote:
And let's be honest, someone would soon crack whatever encryption they used on the cards and clone them / find a way of topping up illegally etc.


Do you have a debit card? How would this be any different?

It's a benefits account card, which can only be spent on certain products. If you want it to be non luxuries, just make retailers only take for VAT free goods. It would be easy to set their tills to do this.



And then you'd have the wierd position that you would be able to buy a grot mag but not tampons.

Edit : and no jaffa cakes either.
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Monkeywrenche...
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PostPosted: 18:45 - 17 Oct 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hawkeye1250FA wrote:


Hmm, I think you are over simplifying. It would need to be substantially different from a debit card to limit it to specific goods. Not to mention all someone would need to do in your above solution is sell fags and booze under the table using barcodes for equivalent priced food and electricity. Very easily done.

And yes people do clone debit cards now, so I'm not sure about all of your argument tbh.

I'm not against it, but we don't have the infrastructure at the moment to police it. 👍


Some good points, cloned cards would still, as now, only have the same value in the account just split over more cards. It wouldn't be easy or cheap but then Universal credit is estimated to cost nearly 16 billion to roll out.
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 19:06 - 17 Oct 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Nobby the Bastard”]


And then you'd have the wierd position that you would be able to buy a grot mag but not tampons. [/quote]

Nice sound bite, but wrong....

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/zero-rating-books-and-printed-matter-for-vat-notice-70110
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 20:17 - 17 Oct 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great idea in principle, but as usual, the implementation of carrying out brain surgery with a golf club.
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 20:40 - 17 Oct 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jewlio Rides Again LLB wrote:
Great idea in principle, but as usual, the implementation of carrying out brain surgery with a golf club.


George Osborne is to blame, and he tried to shift the blame onto IDS.
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