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Pjay
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PostPosted: 12:02 - 30 Oct 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a hobbyist these days, just doing python scripts for my raspberry pi projects.

I hate coding, it makes my brain turn into logic machine if I do it for too long.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 12:52 - 30 Oct 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
So what qualities does a good programmer need?


A good GCSE in English, and at least some maths, and an interest in doing the job.
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The Shaggy D.A.
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PostPosted: 13:18 - 30 Oct 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riejufixing wrote:
Lord Percy wrote:
So what qualities does a good programmer need?


A good GCSE in English, and at least some maths, and an interest in doing the job.


And a healthy dollop of autism/Asperger's.
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barrkel
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PostPosted: 15:53 - 30 Oct 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riejufixing wrote:

A good GCSE in English, and at least some maths, and an interest in doing the job.

That'll get you to programmer, maybe, not enough to be good.

The Shaggy D.A. wrote:
And a healthy dollop of autism/Asperger's.

I've worked with people further out on the spectrum than me Smile and there are definitely diminishing returns. One chap was absolutely fearless, technically; but he was completely blinkered, focused on his immediate goal, and didn't consider the systematic ramifications of his changes. We had to let him go - we would have had to pair him up with a QA guy full time to stop him breaking other stuff. Others are opinionated on a technical spectrum but don't consider the people factor; or focus on technical excellence at the cost of immediate return to the business, and get lost in rabbit-holes; or get frustrated with the general shittiness of everything without understanding how things got to the way they are now, and how to pragmatically improve things without starting yet another aborted initiative that ends up just adding to the mess.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 20:35 - 30 Oct 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

barrkel wrote:
Riejufixing wrote:

A good GCSE in English, and at least some maths, and an interest in doing the job.

That'll get you to programmer, maybe, not enough to be good.


I disagree. It seems to be what's necessary. There don't seem to be any other indicative qualifications.
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thx1138
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PostPosted: 20:43 - 30 Oct 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

WD Forte wrote:
10 CLS
20 PRINT "hellow rold"
30 PRINT "no not that"
40 PRINT "hello world"
50 PRINT "ther thas betterer"
60 REM going to terlit
70 END



10 REM THXs Guess a Number Game in One Line of BASIC.
20 LET X=INT(RND*999):FOR G=1 TO 99:INPUT "NR.=";A:PRINT "><"((X>A)+1);A,G:NEXT G


RUN
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 21:45 - 30 Oct 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riejufixing wrote:
Lord Percy wrote:
So what qualities does a good programmer need?


A good GCSE in English, and at least some maths, and an interest in doing the job.


I have a GCSE Very Happy

I can be programmer? Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 21:55 - 30 Oct 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im-a-Ridah wrote:
Riejufixing wrote:
(So what qualities does a good programmer need?)

A good GCSE in English, and at least some maths, and an interest in doing the job.


I have a GCSE Very Happy

I can be programmer? Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green


"Of course you can, Malcolm!".

Question is, would you want to be?

A great friend of mine over the years claimed he'd only got a 15-Yard Swimming Certificate, and nothing else from school at all. It is possible, I suppose, he certainly did not go to university. Wonderful chap, excellent programmer, thoroughly decent all-round good chap, and once upon a time my boss! Smile Wink
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thx1138
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PostPosted: 23:15 - 30 Oct 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riejufixing wrote:


A great friend of mine over the years claimed he'd only got a 15-Yard Swimming Certificate, and nothing else from school at all. It is possible, I suppose, he certainly did not go to university. Wonderful chap, excellent programmer, thoroughly decent all-round good chap, and once upon a time my boss! Smile Wink


I got a couple of GCSE's, and ended up running a dept. where everyone under me had a degree, or a doctorate. Not programming, but yeah, same sorta thing.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 04:11 - 31 Oct 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

@barrkel

Cheers, useful info :karma:

I'm currently the programmer guy for a startup here in Chengdu. Things are going really well so far, and I think you may be right that it's down to us (well, him - it's his business idea) having adult heads on. It isn't an "automatic toaster" app or some other stupid tech bro thing.

As for the other stuff, bigO etc, yeah that's not a thing I find myself needing to focus on at the moment. I mostly use libraries that have already been optimised enough by other people.

I may regret that though. I've read that there's always a weigh up between "doing it right" and "doing it quickly for your boss". I ran a test on the database for our website with a few million dummy entries. Everything was a bit sluggish, but rewriting it to scale up to that many users would have been too much of a task. Luckily the business will never reach that many users (or if it does it'll be earning tens of millions, ha). Still, I failed a bit on the 'scalability' part. Oh well, still pleased for a first major project.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 14:39 - 31 Oct 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
I ran a test on the database for our website with a few million dummy entries. Everything was a bit sluggish


You need to be very careful, when you're testing, of the nature of your data and database structure, as the performance of your application may depend on those things.
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Andy_Pagin
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PostPosted: 14:54 - 31 Oct 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Worst thing about being a programmer is you have an above average understanding of how our modern hight-tech world actually works ...
its horrifying, and knowledge gained can never be forgotton.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 02:19 - 01 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riejufixing wrote:
Lord Percy wrote:
I ran a test on the database for our website with a few million dummy entries. Everything was a bit sluggish


You need to be very careful, when you're testing, of the nature of your data and database structure, as the performance of your application may depend on those things.


Oh it absolutely depends on those things.

I'm staring at the code right now and can see exactly where optimisation may need to be done. Some important stuff would need rewriting though, and right now it isn't worth the time or risk of messing things up. It can sit there as 'technical debt' for a while yet.

As far as database structure goes, I at the very least made sure to keep user profile images in a separate table from user profile data. I can thank stackoverflow for that fine advice Very Happy . Actually I can thank stackoverflow for a bloody lot. Password and database security were all new to me, until I googled them*.

*On the topic of security, and the ease with which I googled how to do it properly. I almost took on a project a few weeks ago, inheriting a code base from an Indian company who had monumentally failed on their promised timeline (3 months turned into 12 and it still wasn't done) so the client relieved them of their duties. I looked at their code, which was all very nice for the most part, then discovered somebody had set it so user passwords are saved as base64 ecnoded strings. This was production-ready code that just needed some bits doing on the front end.

On the day I taught myself how to deal properly with passwords, this image was one of the first things I saw.

https://paragonie.com/files/blog/base64_a_password.png

I guess some programmers are too proud to google what they don't know.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 02:22 - 01 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy_Pagin wrote:
Worst thing about being a programmer is you have an above average understanding of how our modern hight-tech world actually works ...
its horrifying, and knowledge gained can never be forgotton.


Heh, yeah, and it gives a whole new understanding of the "patented new blockchain hash function Cyberdyne technology!" techno-babble all the startups and kickstarter campaigns like to use.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 02:46 - 01 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
As far as database structure goes, I at the very least made sure to keep user profile images in a separate table from user profile data.


Oh dear. I'm asking something I ought not to, since I'm recovering at the moment. In remission from IT as it were. Damn. What database product?

Edit:

Lord Percy wrote:
Some important stuff would need rewriting though, and right now it isn't worth the time or risk of messing things up. It can sit there as 'technical debt' for a while yet.


It'll stay there "FOR EVER!!!!* (hollow laugh)..... when you're gone, some poor bugger will find it after a horrible event, and say "What c- wrote that?! We can't change it now!"
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 12:15 - 01 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riejufixing wrote:

Oh dear. I'm asking something I ought not to, since I'm recovering at the moment. In remission from IT as it were. Damn. What database product?


Honestly I'm still too new to it all to speak with any authority using database lingo, but here's what I can say.

The project was a rebuild of a website that was initially made on Wordpress. I had to export the data as CSVs and used multiple methods to get it all nicely into a new database, which is of the MSSQL variety.

I didn't do much SQLing at all though. When building/editing it I found it easier to use the T-SQL stuff in Visual Studio, and LINQ for all the querying and data manipulation. I only used SQL Management Studio to make .bak files for bunging it onto the web host when needed.

Basically I've been databased up to my eyeballs for 6 months without using any old school querying language at all. I do understand basic SQL though. My main weakness is in database theory, how to connect things properly with foreign keys and all that other stuff. Might get myself round to learning it sometime soon.

Quote:

Lord Percy wrote:
'technical debt'


It'll stay there "FOR EVER!!!!* (hollow laugh)..... when you're gone, some poor bugger will find it after a horrible event, and say "What c- wrote that?! We can't change it now!"


Heh, there's a lot in the code that could be rewritten. I've been refactoring it fairly well when I get the time though. It's just the javascript that has become a slight maze. I know my way around it, but if I leave it for a year it might not be nice. I daresay it's probably not the absolute worst you'll find out there.
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 12:45 - 01 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can I tell you the worst thing that being a professional programmer (for a year - I wasn't great at it) has done to me?

Ruined Superman III Laughing
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Hong Kong Phooey
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PostPosted: 11:11 - 04 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

panrider_uk wrote:
I did COBOL programming back in the day.

A smattering of BASIC, Fortran, Z80 assembler and Pascal


I think somebody is showing their age! Laughing Wink

I did A-level computer science and didn't use it in my career path until the last 15 years. I've been programming since the age of 10.

BASIC & C as a hobby, then in the last 15 years in the workplace, VBA, VBscript, more recently (last 5 years) Javascript, PHP, HTML and some server side shell scripting. A bit of SQL, and a lot of reporting experience as an advanced user.

What I've learned is that VBA can do a hell of a lot of useful things. It might not be the fastest at runtime, but the agility of being able to develop something there and then, and its ubiquity more makes up for that. It's IDE is simple to use, and its integration into the apps everybody uses (Excel, Access, Word) means I'm forever being called upon to streamline everybody elses job. I joke (with some irony) that I'll program them out of a job within the next 5 years.

I have adapted to use other languages as the basics are similar, I tend to google the solution, a lot of Stack Exchange is solving the same issue, which can easily be adapted. It's the most pragmatic & fastest way sometimes, and for sure gives inspiration & niche streamlined methods that I would never have considered in solitude. Once you've built a little library of these gems, they tend to get reused quite a lot.

I've spent a lot of my time shifting data from one platform to another, this is also an ongoing theme in any industry. Extract, transform, check, upload, verify. Also a hell of a lot of time programming purely because I want to avoid doing the work, and get the computer to sort it out.

All of the above are in addition to my main job!
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panrider_uk
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PostPosted: 15:01 - 04 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hong Kong Phooey wrote:
panrider_uk wrote:
I did COBOL programming back in the day.

A smattering of BASIC, Fortran, Z80 assembler and Pascal


I think somebody is showing their age! Laughing Wink

I did A-level computer science and didn't use it in my career path until the last 15 years. I've been programming since the age of 10.

BASIC & C as a hobby, then in the last 15 years in the workplace, VBA, VBscript, more recently (last 5 years) Javascript, PHP, HTML and some server side shell scripting. A bit of SQL, and a lot of reporting experience as an advanced user.

What I've learned is that VBA can do a hell of a lot of useful things. It might not be the fastest at runtime, but the agility of being able to develop something there and then, and its ubiquity more makes up for that. It's IDE is simple to use, and its integration into the apps everybody uses (Excel, Access, Word) means I'm forever being called upon to streamline everybody elses job. I joke (with some irony) that I'll program them out of a job within the next 5 years.

I have adapted to use other languages as the basics are similar, I tend to google the solution, a lot of Stack Exchange is solving the same issue, which can easily be adapted. It's the most pragmatic & fastest way sometimes, and for sure gives inspiration & niche streamlined methods that I would never have considered in solitude. Once you've built a little library of these gems, they tend to get reused quite a lot.

I've spent a lot of my time shifting data from one platform to another, this is also an ongoing theme in any industry. Extract, transform, check, upload, verify. Also a hell of a lot of time programming purely because I want to avoid doing the work, and get the computer to sort it out.

All of the above are in addition to my main job!


At least I avoided slide rules (just) Smile

VBSEdit is a nice little editor for vba which will compile your little utilities into .exe files.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 15:17 - 04 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hong Kong Phooey wrote:
panrider_uk wrote:
I did COBOL programming back in the day.

A smattering of BASIC, Fortran, Z80 assembler and Pascal


I think somebody is showing their age! Laughing Wink

I did A-level computer science and didn't use it in my career path until the last 15 years. I've been programming since the age of 10.

BASIC & C as a hobby, then in the last 15 years in the workplace, VBA, VBscript, more recently (last 5 years) Javascript, PHP, HTML and some server side shell scripting. A bit of SQL, and a lot of reporting experience as an advanced user.

What I've learned is that VBA can do a hell of a lot of useful things. It might not be the fastest at runtime, but the agility of being able to develop something there and then, and its ubiquity more makes up for that. It's IDE is simple to use, and its integration into the apps everybody uses (Excel, Access, Word) means I'm forever being called upon to streamline everybody elses job. I joke (with some irony) that I'll program them out of a job within the next 5 years.

I have adapted to use other languages as the basics are similar, I tend to google the solution, a lot of Stack Exchange is solving the same issue, which can easily be adapted. It's the most pragmatic & fastest way sometimes, and for sure gives inspiration & niche streamlined methods that I would never have considered in solitude. Once you've built a little library of these gems, they tend to get reused quite a lot.

I've spent a lot of my time shifting data from one platform to another, this is also an ongoing theme in any industry. Extract, transform, check, upload, verify. Also a hell of a lot of time programming purely because I want to avoid doing the work, and get the computer to sort it out.

All of the above are in addition to my main job!

Bit of a hijack here but what would you recommend for a total noob starting out? I did an introductory Codeacademy course recently, and learnt about the gender pay gap, a lack of diversity within the range of makeup on sale, and the Bechdel test... not a lot of coding though Thinking

I was thinking python as I have a Raspberry Pi although would it be better going back to the roots of coding (basic etc.)? I've downloaded the Spectrum coding manual (its like 200 pages Smile). Sorry again for the hijack just wanted to ask while the experts are in the room.
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Hong Kong Phooey
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PostPosted: 18:09 - 04 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

VBA wouldn't be a bad place to learn a high level language. If you can record a macro in Excel then you can amplify the power of that macro by editing it in the developer environment, shortcut is alt+f11. By looking at the code generated by macros is also a simple way to learn.

You can for example rename a worksheet, and reuse bits of that macro in your own routine then wrap it in a for each worksheet in thisworkbook type loop and add one on to the worksheet name variable to consecutively number and rename every sheet. It's a poor example but you get the idea.

It's also very well explained on the net, fairly forgiving with loose variable types (a pain and a blessing), and you can add in other library reference functions as you get more advanced. Every place I've worked I've used VBA. It doesn't have to do anything at all in a workbook, you can use the Windows filesystem objects to touch files.

Downside is if you need managed code. Then it's the devil incarnate as it's spread throughout hundreds of secreted docs. You could write a VBA app to gather it all up though Thinking



---edit---

If that doesn't float your boat then you could always look at installing a LAMP/WAMP stack, this is a web server install with php and mysql. It's a great way of learning how to setup and configure a web server and the apps and databases that run on them. It's also free, as in open source.
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Last edited by Hong Kong Phooey on 20:40 - 04 Nov 2018; edited 1 time in total
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Hong Kong Phooey
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PostPosted: 18:11 - 04 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

panrider_uk wrote:


VBSEdit is a nice little editor for vba which will compile your little utilities into .exe files.


Does it create a single .exe, or also a folder with dependencies?
I've used the Windows VBS environment and that compiles with those extras required for distribution.
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talkToTheHat
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PostPosted: 23:39 - 04 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm doing a little R for doing analysis and presentation of frequency response of audio equipment. I probably should be just calling GGPlot from python and doing the heavy lifting there as OOP in R is something of an afterthought but it's the easy way to get data from different sources (csv or tab delimited txt from a data logger, spice simulation output) to conform to an R data set I can do easy lispy/FP stuff to...

Got into programming from some embedded systems work in mech/auto eng, floated around the comp-sci department probing the dead ends of functional meshes in Haskell for a while. Obligitory dabblings in python/java/various C derivitives. Much beer courtesy of IBM and MS recruitment attempts. Been out of academia 10 years now and not really industry connected any more.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 03:56 - 05 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:

Bit of a hijack here but what would you recommend for a total noob starting out? I did an introductory Codeacademy course recently, and learnt about the gender pay gap, a lack of diversity within the range of makeup on sale, and the Bechdel test... not a lot of coding though Thinking

I was thinking python as I have a Raspberry Pi although would it be better going back to the roots of coding (basic etc.)? I've downloaded the Spectrum coding manual (its like 200 pages Smile). Sorry again for the hijack just wanted to ask while the experts are in the room.


Going to have to go against the words of Mr Hong Kong Phoeey here.

VBA is frankly a little bit of a dinosaur now, I've not heard of it being used at all for anything any more, other than Excel spreadsheet stuff. Of all the things I think I should learn in order to broaden my career prospects, VBA isn't a consideration at all.

Here's what I would recommend.

1. Sign up to Code Academy. And learn Java first (not Javascript, SQL, Python, R or whatever). I can't stress this enough. Learning Java will teach you good habits and give you a much better understanding of how to program properly. The other languages are too niche, too industry-specific, or are just crap. If CodeAcademy isn't enough for you, try learning C# here instead. C# is almost exactly the same as Java, but a little bit better technically. I learned C# first and it's what got me my first programming job.

2. "Why shouldn't I learn Javascript? It's the most popular and widely used!" you may ask. In industry Javascript is seen as a massive zit on the programming world. It just happens to have become the language of web browsers, meaning its global footprint is huge. That doesn't make it good though. The Javascript language was created in 10 days. It's terrible. Do not learn Javascript first. Sure, learn it at some point because it's essential for making websites. Just don't learn it first.

3. Join Quora and follow the programming topics on there. The advice is frankly brilliant. Loads of common sense attitudes that people tend to overlook. For example, in newbie programmers there's a belief that algorithm knowledge or how many lines of code you type in a session are measures of your ability. In reality, the most important factor is whether you can make stuff that works. It's more like being a car mechanic than a rocket scientist, you just need to put the right bits together. The folk on Quora are full of great common sense advice like that.

Finally, have a look at the 2018 Stack Overflow developer survey . Loads of interesting stats in there. But try to keep in mind that it's heavily skewed by industry, society and academia (where people are taught easy/'accessible' languages instead of robust ones), rather than technical standards.

Quote:
I've downloaded the Spectrum coding manual (its like 200 pages Smile)


I used C# 5.0 and the .Net Framework.
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