Do winter tyres exist? Any technivs to regain control?

[tara1234]

Hey so I came off twice earlier today both times less than 5 mph on the same road in heavy traffic. I felt the bike going and put my footbdown but still dropped the bike. Is there any technics that I can do to regain control or should I just drop the bike and hope for minimal damage?

Also as I dropped the bike duo to wet conditions are there wet weather tyres I can put on it to make maintaining controleasier.

Lastly will doing DAS actually stop me coming off or am I coming off because I lack experience?

[Howling Terror]

Your tyres will not be the cause of you falling off whilst doing less than 5 mph.
I say this as someone who has rode a bike with a flat front tyre...
hey I was in my 40s and immature.

Secondly, excellent work on surviving/crashing well.

Third is one word. Smooth...esp in wet weather. The best tyres will not stop a slip if you're hamfisted. To help in smoothness you'll be scanning ahead more than currently...to scan effectively go slower (well if you actully manage to break the 5mph barrier that is ). Peripheral spider senses... switch to ON.

Grab some extra tuition whilst you can still afford it...y'know the price of levers ain't dropping.
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[stinkwheel]

There's something wrong with you, your bike or the tyres if you are coming off at low speeds on wet roads.

Let's start with what bike you have, what tyres are fitted, what pressure you have them at, when you last checked this and how old those tyres are.

Then a bit more about what you were doing when this happened. Were you braking or moving off? Which wheel started to slide? What sort of road surface, you say traffic so I'm guessing urban, 30mph, daytime and no chance of it being black ice. Were both falls in the same place?

General advice for technique is keep balanced and upright on the bike, look where you want to go, do not grip the handlebars other than to turn them and avoid sudden/jerky changes in speed, keep it smooth.

You should be able to ride a motorcycle through a series of turns and manouvers at walking pace on a wet road without any problems.

Taking things to an extreme. This guy is on slicks.
https://youtu.be/0V9GVXydp3c
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[stinkwheel]

[Howling Terror]

Barum? No. It was a BT45..I was immature but not a fool.
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[tara1234]

my bike is a yamaha sr 125 2001 tyres seam thin compared to my friends keeway superlight 125.

[stinkwheel]

[Johanna]

I almost came off at slow speed once, but I was pulling away from a junction and went over oil. The bike went squirrely on me but I managed to ride out of it. The reason it was so bad was because I was accelerating to pull away quickly.

Tara, did you possibly ride over something like oil, slippery drain cover or similar? As others have asked, what were you doing at the time? If you were accelerating or braking, cornering and hit something unusually slippery (possibly invisible on the wet road) then the best tyres in the world would still have dropped you.

I thought the question was going to be about cold weather tyres. I know there are specific rain tyres which displace water (and that's what we need in the UK winter) but I've been wondering, for theoretical purposes only, what tyres would be best if riding on hardpacked snow/ice, as they have on the plowed roads in Scandinavia, Canada and so on. Would rain tyres still be best?

[davebike]

Check you tyres !
Check pressure
Check tread 2mm all the way across all the way around !
Yes 1mm is legal but useless in cold and wet !

Do not use the front brake at low speed (sub 15/20)
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NC750Xdct + others at work !
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[BTTD]

I'll second everyone's query on the tyre and it's age. I've ridden two bikes with 15 year old tyres. One was okay, the other was an arse puckering experience of front tyre slides on a 10 mph super tight country lane corner even though it felt manageable at speed. I can't remember what make that tyre was but it had gone super hard and almost like a hard plastic surface.

Alternatively you may be instinctively grabbing front brake and being ham-fisted, but that should be pretty obvious to you.

[Teflon-Mike]

Oh-Kay.... "Winter Tyres'...... well, that's a car 'thing' and peculiarly an American 'thing'.

"No" is the simple answer; and in cars and in the US it's something of a perversity, born of legislation in some states that have laws demand cars be fitted with "Winter Tyres' in winter months.

Away from that legislation, what the americans oft refer to as a 'Winter-Tyre' is more properly called a 'Mud & Snow' tread pattern. On an off-roader like a Landie, that would probably be something a tad more rugged than an 'All-Terrrain' tyre, but needn't be as rugged as a full mud tyre, or a 'paddle-track' or 'bar-tread' tractor or dumper-truck tyre... and they tend to only work 'better' in certain circumstances, in the case of a Mud & Snow tyre, in mud or snow! On tarmac or hard rock or gravel they can be abismal and worse than a more conservative street or even milk-float remould (see later anecdote)!!

On Bikes.... the generic off-road tyre is the knoblie..... in trials, like wot I have been perfecting falling off for four decades..... the 'regulations' stipulate a 'control tyre' with a maximum block heght and spacing, which isn't actually all that 'rugged'. In motorcross and enduro, they are allowed to run 'full-knoblies' which might have six-inch rubber stilleto's for tread, designed to dig in to the surface, where the trials knoblie is an all round tyre designed to grip the surface not quarry it....

Historically these were fitted to road-based 'Trials-Bikes', and they are NOT particularly brilliant on tar-mac, and in recent years the vogue of the 'adventure sport' has lead to tyre makers making much more road-biased 'of-road' tyres, like a sports-bike slick with bigger relief groves..... personally, I consider these like the bikes, a dirt-style tyre rather than one designed for off-road, but it's all in the aspirations and applications, I suppose!

Heading towards an answer, when you get into it, these tend to be described or rated by thier 'off-road' bias as say a 70/30 or 60/40, off-road to road tyre, note more road biased, than a trials tyre that would probably be rated at around 50/50 or the other way 40/60.

A-N-D pertinant to you.. we live in the UK.... weather tends to be pretty crud all year round, and the roads not much better! If you are riding on the roads, then the 'best' tyre is a conventional 'road' tyre.

Off-Road anecdote on topic of milk-float remoulds.... trend in off-roading, taking a Land-Rover down a muddly track, people are convinced that they HAVE to have the mega-rugged Pampa 'mud' tyres that they see the challenge trucks in the mags shod with....

Some years ago, I was leading a School teacher who had renovated an old Series III shorty in the summer holidays, shod with milk-float remolds 'cos tyres for a land-rover is expensive.... I was in Range-Rover on 'street' all-terrians, and had a chap in a challenge wannabee 90, on Pampas, come over, shake his head when I insisted we'd get through a mud-hole, and say, "Yeah, Oh-Kay, well, I'll go attach the strops to pull you both out".. An I am not too sure who was more amazed when the little SIII chugged gently out the other side... its owner, having followed advice to keep off the throttle and hands off the steering wheel and just let the truck chug through finding its own way.... or the chap playing with his HD recovery gear.....

It's a very modern trend to try 'Buy' your way through problems, rather than learn the 'skill' to contend with them....

Tyres is case in point..... good tyres are good, but they are only half the solution, other half is skill, and its the more important half.... as with the Landies, without the skill, the more capable tyres will just let a numpty get further into trouble before they realise they are in trouble.....

Back to original question...

First off the thin tyres are actually an advantage... if you want technical, the amount of grip, or force the tyre can transmit in pure friction, is a pure % of the weight force clamping the tyre to the road... 'theoretically' the area of tyre in contact with the road doesn't come in to the equation... it does, later when it starts getting more complicated... but perversely... at the base level grip is the weight times the co-efficient of friction... and that's pretty much it... you want more grip? Get heavy or fit a stickier tyre....

A-N-D tyres get pumped up to a certain pressure.. on both mine its about 30psi... that's thirty pounds-per-square-inch... my 125 weighs about 280lb.. strick me on it too, I weigh about 200lb... that's around 500lb... at 30psi, that will squash the tyres until there's about 15 square inches of rubber, between the two tyres, pressed against the tarmac....

I can fit tyres as fat as I like or as skinny as I want.... it wont make one iota of difference to how much area of rubber is squashed against the road.... Bike still weighs 280lb, I still weigh 200lb, and the pressure would still be around 30psi.....

The Reasons bigger, heavier bikes have an advantage or three.

First, they tend to be heavier; my Seven-Fifty is almost twice the wight of my 125, so it has almost twice the force clamping tyre to tarmac before you start... yes it has fatter tyres.... THIS does not give it more grip... it gives it more tyre... which when you have a big heavy bike on top, means that it can spread the load a bit through the extra rubber, which means that the tyre 'should' be more stable and longer lasting.... yes, the extra weight at the same pressure will squash more rubber into contact with the tarmac, BUT that extra area isn't the main reason for any more grip, which it may or may not have, it's entirely down to that extra weight squashing more tyre, and the extra weight providing extra clamping force.

Next up... that extra weight... well Force = Mass x Acceleration... or back-to front, acceleration is force divided by mass... less mass you have the less acceleration you get for any applied force... so, a bump in the road makes the bike 'jolt'.. that bump causes a deflecting force trying to shove the bike in a direction it wasn't going... heavier the bike, the less 'effect' that bump will have, as the force has to move more mass.... this 'can' make a heavier bike that much more 'planted' and stable on the road, less wont to react so much or so fast to any deflecting forces, like bumps, or road irregularities or clumsy newby control inputs....

Here-in lies the most likely culprit.... clumsy newby control inputs... aided and abbeted by cheap economy and likely rather old and hard tyres, but still.....

The Learner-Lurch.. I will describe in the 'launch' maneuver pulling away from a start, and its where the mantra "Neat Feet" comes from... but it applies throughout....

Learner... lets out the clutch and gingers on the throttle; as bike starts to move they leave their feet behind, because they forgot the No1 lesson of CBT, the 'safety position'; left foot down, right on the peg covering or applying back brake... but they have forgot that, and feel more comfy with two feet hovering over the floor...... so as bike starts to move, these feet are left behind and they think maybe to lift them up..... BUT.... oooh... bit hesitant, we aren't going very quick, bike might fall over.... need foot on the floor to stop it toppling..... A-N-D so the errors start to compound....

I am about 90Kg depending which way the winds blowing, that's roughly 75% the weight of the bike.... and over 1/3 of my weight is beneath my wast, in my legs.... so, IF my legs flap around on launch, on the 125, that is around 20% of the all-up weight of me and the vehicle RANDOMLY flapping around, that mass subject to the acceleration due to gravity causing a force, making the whole bike try and wag! Same lummox on top of the Seven-Fifty.... same deal, but now the bikes twice as heavy and the amount of mass flapping around in my legs is a much smaller proportion of the all up, and so has a much smaller effect.... add the fact that the bigger bike is also longer, and less agile, and it all adds up, to make it so much more smooth, the weight of the bike damping so much numptiness....

BUT... learn to launch a lightweight... means getting them feet up, on the pegs ASAP, NO FLAPPING. Now feet planted on the pegs, there's not so much weight randomly wobbling around, trying to make the bike chance direction.... more... because the bike is more stable and not wobbling so much, the rider doesn't seem to need to react to that wobble and correct anything... steering leaning backing off the throttle, ALL adding to the competing chaos of forces trying to make you crash.....

Small aside; riding a bike, is an allegory for life; We sit in the middle of a whole host of competing forces, ALL seemingly malevolent trying to make us crash, and we KID ourselves that we are 'in-control' as long as we don't.... the reality is that there are so many forces, so many imponderables, like SMIDSY man, or road-slime, and so little we actually have any real effect over, in throttle, brakes and steering, we are little more than a passenger with influence... and not a lot of influence at that.... but still.... the trick is to make the absolute MOST of the tiny control we have, and NOT think we are 'in control'... we aint! So dont get cocky!

Another Mantra; Crashing happens when confidence and confidence are widely in variance; either revin-kevin, all cahoots they have sussed this riding malarkey, giving it the berrys, OR nervouse-nancy.. teriffied of everything, convinced they are gonna muff it up... in either case, that mis-conception is what will likely cause the trouble, and Revin-Kevin will go great guns and dump it in a hedge on a bend they didn't slow down enough for.... and probably live to tell hero-tale about it, whilst ironically, Nervouse Nancy will most likely do something like slow down too much, too early, terrified of spotting a car nose in a T-Junction, convinced it will SMIDSY them, BUT, giving the car the 'false' signal that they are slowing to let them out, A-N-D misreading that signal WILL pull out and SMIDSY them! Which hurts... means paperwork, and TENDS to be a lot more serious than Revin-Kevin limping home pushing bike with buckled wheel covered in mud.... but still....

So... sat in the middle of a net of competing forces, kidding yourself you are in control, when you are actually no more than a passenger with influence......

YES, its easier on a bigger, heavier bike... usually... that extra weight damps wobbles, and flatters numpty riding.... BUT learn to do it on a light-weight, where its down to YOU and you alone to be smooth, be confident and NOT create the wobbles a bigger heavier bike might damp for you.... get on a bigger heavier bike, them wobbles aint there to need be damped! Bike no need to flatter numpty riding, 'cos you aint numpty riding! SO, that mass, that stability, means you have that much 'more' help to dodge SMIDSY and ride without so much worry on the road.

You have a 125, this is what they are best at, teaching you to do it for yourself and not expect the bike to do it for you or flatter your riding, and build REAL confidence... so stick with it... time on a tiddler is rarely wasted... and you got one, its insurance will likely be a PITA to transfer to a bigger bike in under a year anyway, so you may as well milk the thing for what its worth....

BACK TO TYRES!

SR is going to be pretty old by now, they haven't made any for best part of two-decades, what tyres are on it is unknown, but as low-cost commuter odds is they aint the best, they aint the stickiest and they are likely 'old' and hard.....

Good 'New' tyres, and by that I dont mean something off-e-bay but a known brand, like Dunlop or Mitchelin... I dont think they do them any-more, but I can thoroughly recommend Michelin M45's on a lightweight, they are about £90 a pair, double or treble the price of ecconomy brands, but OH so worth it, and a pittance in the all-up costs, for how long they last... especially considering how soft and sticky they are.. I think they have been superseded by a Pilot, which has less 'tread' and looks more like a slick sports tyre, but has the same soft rubber compound.... and I haven't tried so cant vouch for them, but they don't look so bad a bet.

And that premium on the price? Think of the cost in comparison to handlebars you dont bend, brake levers you dont break, and road-rash you DONT have to rub salve into.... it IS good value. Its a falce ecconomy to try stint on tyres on any bike, but a lightweight that doesn't have the weight to make grip or damp numptyness, its is oh-so much MORE beneficial..... especially when you are a learner trying to figure it all out and dont need any more variables or uncertainties than you got!

BUT, back to the neat-feet, good tyres are worth thier weight, BUT you still have to do your bit, tyres wont do it for you..... and accidents happen when confidence is out of kilter to competance....

When you came off...... it is odds on that regardless of how wonderful or not the tyres might have been... bottom line is that yo muffed up, if only failing to make allowance for less than brilliant tyres.... but, very good odds that you over reacted some-where and caused unnecessary wobble, panic snatched brakes or violently wrenched handlebars, or threw your weight the wrong way... and more that you did that because you either failed to road far enough up the road and predict what you needed to react to, and or over reacted, reacting too much, too early, to too little....

Curiously you don't mention bending a car door or anything in your off... this would tend to suggest either you are an incredibly nervous nervous nancy..... or an incredibly devil-may care revin-kevin.... I would hazard a guess at an over cautious nervous nancy.... which would beg the suggestion that the MAIN thing you need is saddle hours and confidence, which good tyres can help offer.... as much by placebo effect as anything, but who cares as long as it saves the gravel rash! Take any help you can! In which, the biggest gain, after the hit of good, confidence instilling NEW and reputable brand tyres, WILL be from getting GOOD experience... which tends to mean NOT falling off, and lots of it, cranking the miles.... its two-prong attack, some technology in the tyres, but most in the learning and skill, and getting 'smooth' and learning to look up the road and predict hazards before they can hurt you.

In which, DAS training may be a help, BUT DAS training is mostly teaching you how to pass a motorbike test, it isn't necessarily teaching you how to spot the dangers on the road, or dodge them in every situation, in every weather, OR to be smooth... does tend to build confidence quick though, which may help, as long as you dont let it get too far ahead of competrance...

Back to you... its your arse kimo-sabi.....

But No, there's no such thing as a 'winter' tyre, really, even on an american car, in Mitchigen, where they'z law!
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[2Hondas]

Tef, I read the first and last sentence of what you posted and couldn't be bothered to read the rest.

No such thing as a winter tyre? Utter nonsense.

Have you ever been to any cold countries? Scandinavia or areas of eastern europe?

Winter tyres have loads of little blocks on the tread.
More blocks = more movement
more movement = better at heating up, which in turn helps them get to a usable operating temperature.

As for the OP, unless there's black ice or diesel, it must be poor technique, poor tyre maintenance or some utterly terrible nylon tyres.
Were the cars around you also slipping?
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[Teflon-Mike]

[Riejufixing]

[rpsmith79]

[Riejufixing]

Yes, winter tyres ("mud & snow", "M+s") do exist. I've never had them on a bike, but on cars/vans they do make some difference. I've seen a Heidenau M&S tyre on a scooter, and was wondering about getting Anlas Winter Grip tyres for a 125 byt they don't come in the right size.

M&S tyres have a lot of tiny sipes in the tread, like this:

[Riejufixing]

[Johanna]

[rpsmith79]

[chris-red]

[tara1234]

both times it happened when moving off trying to weave round cars in gridlock conditions. Might have been paint markings that seperate lanes.

I may have used the front brake no idea which wheelfell out.


In regards to weight does that mean if my bike is fully loaded, fulltankbag, saddlebags, stuff tied to the back seat that my bike is more stable as it has another 20-50 kg.

[2Hondas]

[Teflon-Mike]

[Evil Hans]

[Riejufixing]