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mentalboy
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PostPosted: 12:35 - 03 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Val wrote:


It appears the whole Brexit is based on lame photoshop scam.

You couldn't make that up seriously Laughing Laughing Laughing


Val, you don't seem to have grasped the fact that most Brits on both sides of the current argument have had gripes with the EU since it morphed from the EEC.

People have been pissed with immigrants coming in since the flood gates were opened to our old colonies and the imposition of what was seen as unfair monetary input into a system that favoured French farmers, Italian wine producers, Spanish fishermen, Greek spongers, etc and then had the cheek to try to allow only the sale of straight bananas (just a small sample from a long list).
It wouldn't matter what the money men put into the campaign in advertising, there was always going to be strong support for an exit in this current nationalistic climate where many from first world countries think that going it alone in a global economy is the path to Nirvana.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 13:06 - 03 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Val wrote:
Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
It does seem to be something of a one-sided witch hunt. Both sides were spending multi-millions of public and private money; Remain more so. Anyone who thinks we didn't know what we were voting for Rolling Eyes has to ask, what the hell did both sides do with all that money? Badges, banners and some excellent dinners? Made sod all difference to the result.


Stop lying mate. Remain has not broken the electoral law. Big difference innit?

Where have I lied?
You keep on desperately, obsessively trying to find any means to invalidate a democratic vote which went against you in your adopted country. Let's just think about that for a moment.... Not good, is it?

This still wouldn't be a reason to invalidate the vote, though it would mean a fine. Interestingly the Electoral Commission's report on 'Details of major campaign spending during the EU referendum' which had shown Remain legally spending £7 million more than Leave even without accounting for the government's £9 million pro-EU leafleting campaign, is no longer available to view. If anyone can find the source data (not a newspaper report) elsewhere that would be good but it seems odd. An inconvenient truth, perhaps?
https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i-am-a/journalist/electoral-commission-media-centre/news-releases-donations/details-of-major-campaign-spending-during-eu-referendum-published-by-electoral-commission
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Ste
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PostPosted: 13:08 - 03 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Val wrote:
It appears the whole Brexit is based on lame photoshop scam.

You couldn't make that up seriously Laughing Laughing Laughing

I thought it was all based on the £350 million NHS Brexit bus? Confused
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 13:17 - 03 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

mentalboy wrote:
Val wrote:


It appears the whole Brexit is based on lame photoshop scam.

You couldn't make that up seriously Laughing Laughing Laughing


Val, you don't seem to have grasped the fact that most Brits on both sides of the current argument have had gripes with the EU since it morphed from the EEC.

People have been pissed with immigrants coming in since the flood gates were opened to our old colonies and the imposition of what was seen as unfair monetary input into a system that favoured French farmers, Italian wine producers, Spanish fishermen, Greek spongers, etc and then had the cheek to try to allow only the sale of straight bananas (just a small sample from a long list).
It wouldn't matter what the money men put into the campaign in advertising, there was always going to be strong support for an exit in this current nationalistic climate where many from first world countries think that going it alone in a global economy is the path to Nirvana.


And that is the fact.

If it had stayed as the 12 countries in an economic block it would have been a power house however when they started to admit anyone and everyone in an effort to make a political entity then many brits rejected it.

That, and always getting the shit end of the stick because we seem to be the only county that sticks by all the EU rules (more fool us) means that whatever buffoons like Boris or Cameron said, it wasn't going to change peoples minds.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 13:21 - 03 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
Interestingly the Electoral Commission's report on 'Details of major campaign spending during the EU referendum' which had shown Remain legally spending £7 million more than Leave even without accounting for the government's £9 million pro-EU leafleting campaign, is no longer available to view. If anyone can find the source data (not a newspaper report) elsewhere that would be good but it seems odd. An inconvenient truth, perhaps?
https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i-am-a/journalist/electoral-commission-media-centre/news-releases-donations/details-of-major-campaign-spending-during-eu-referendum-published-by-electoral-commission

Google cache

Screenshot: https://i.imgur.com/HPNEpfw.png
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Val
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PostPosted: 14:04 - 03 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brexit fraud state is going to the top now:

Cressida Dick was asked to investigate Mrs May's £1 billion purchase of 10 DUP MPs on 18 Sept 2017. Someone in the Met actually appears to have blocked that bribery investigation

https://dupbribe.org.uk/assets/pdf/progress/letter_to_commissioner_on_bribery.pdf

Make of that what you want.
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Val
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PostPosted: 14:13 - 03 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:

Where have I lied?
You keep on desperately, obsessively trying to find any means to invalidate a democratic vote which went against you in your adopted country. Let's just think about that for a moment.... Not good, is it?

This still wouldn't be a reason to invalidate the vote, though it would mean a fine. Interestingly the Electoral Commission's report on 'Details of major campaign spending during the EU referendum' which had shown Remain legally spending £7 million more than Leave even without accounting for the government's £9 million pro-EU leafleting campaign, is no longer available to view. If anyone can find the source data (not a newspaper report) elsewhere that would be good but it seems odd. An inconvenient truth, perhaps?


Let's suppose I agree with you and Remain is referred to police too.

How two wrongs make one right?

In all cases the referendum is invalid because it was based on cheating and electoral crimes.

Any other election would have been declared invalid. The only legal reason EU2016 is not anulled is because it is advisory hence not a subject to stringent laws for normal elections and binding referendums.

How is that fair or democratic? Regardless how you voted ro what are the reasons for that vote surely you can't support elections based on fraud.

FYI I was always selected as a stopper playing referee during all socker games in the hood. The reason was I always support fair play and rules even when against my own team.

Fair play was the fact I always liked for UK even 30 years ago when it was not my adopted country.

HTH

I can be a bit obsessive. You don't get to win national championship like me in any sport by being indifferent do you Laughing
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Last edited by Val on 14:25 - 03 Nov 2018; edited 1 time in total
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 14:40 - 03 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Val wrote:
Brexit fraud state is going to the top now:

Cressida Dick was asked to investigate Mrs May's £1 billion purchase of 10 DUP MPs on 18 Sept 2017. Someone in the Met actually appears to have blocked that bribery investigation

https://dupbribe.org.uk/assets/pdf/progress/letter_to_commissioner_on_bribery.pdf

Make of that what you want.


Make of that what you want? It was kicked out by the Hight Court.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 16:29 - 03 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Val, you use the words fairness and democracy yet the campaign spending issue is just one of so many weak arguments you keep digging up to justify annulling the vote and banning Brexit. You're not interested in fairness or democracy.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 16:48 - 03 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riejufixing wrote:
Val wrote:
Brexit fraud state is going to the top now:

Cressida Dick was asked to investigate Mrs May's £1 billion purchase of 10 DUP MPs on 18 Sept 2017. Someone in the Met actually appears to have blocked that bribery investigation

https://dupbribe.org.uk/assets/pdf/progress/letter_to_commissioner_on_bribery.pdf

Make of that what you want.


Make of that what you want? It was kicked out by the Hight Court.


The complainant, Professor Joshua Silver of the University of Oxford Physics Department is another one who seeks any old means to stop Brexit. He cares less about whether or not this was bribery, it's just another excuse. Also check out his Andrew Neil interview after he accused Amber Rudd of "hate speech" for saying British jobs for British workers.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 18:03 - 03 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
Val, you use the words fairness and democracy yet the campaign spending issue is just one of so many weak arguments you keep digging up to justify annulling the vote and banning Brexit. You're not interested in fairness or democracy.

It's like the protesters demanding a vote on the final deal... they're holding stop Brexit placards. If it was deal 1 vs deal 2 they wouldn't be interested, they only want a stop Brexit option.
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 18:23 - 03 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
Val, you use the words fairness and democracy yet the campaign spending issue is just one of so many weak arguments you keep digging up to justify annulling the vote and banning Brexit. You're not interested in fairness or democracy.

It's like the protesters demanding a vote on the final deal... they're holding stop Brexit placards. If it was deal 1 vs deal 2 they wouldn't be interested, they only want a stop Brexit option.


So let them have a deal 1 v deal 2.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 18:59 - 03 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jewlio Rides Again LLB wrote:
So let them have a deal 1 v deal 2.

I think we're having enough trouble negotiating one deal Wink Whatever is agreed (with the EU) will be voted down in Parliament anyway, that was Gina Millers intention.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 19:59 - 03 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
Whatever is agreed (with the EU) will be voted down in Parliament anyway


It seems in fact that it will be likely to pass, to avoid "no deal". That's probably a good thing.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 20:25 - 03 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riejufixing wrote:
M.C wrote:
Whatever is agreed (with the EU) will be voted down in Parliament anyway


It seems in fact that it will be likely to pass, to avoid "no deal". That's probably a good thing.

I'm not so sure, I think Corbyn would happily throw the UK under the bus for his own political gain, assuming we get that far. Davis was the one I had faith in but May obviously knows best Rolling Eyes
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 21:02 - 03 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:

The complainant, Professor Joshua Silver of the University of Oxford Physics Department is another one who seeks any old means to stop Brexit. He cares less about whether or not this was bribery, it's just another excuse. Also check out his Andrew Neil interview after he accused Amber Rudd of "hate speech" for saying British jobs for British workers.


It's definitely a uni to avoid. Full of rich kids and metropolitan elites.

Polarbear wrote:

And that is the fact.

If it had stayed as the 12 countries in an economic block it would have been a power house however when they started to admit anyone and everyone in an effort to make a political entity then many brits rejected it.

That, and always getting the shit end of the stick because we seem to be the only county that sticks by all the EU rules (more fool us) means that whatever buffoons like Boris or Cameron said, it wasn't going to change peoples minds.


The people who really run the EU live in a sort of dreamland.
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barrkel
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PostPosted: 22:58 - 03 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look into the history of the US commerce clause, and its effect on increasing the power of the US federal government, to the detriment of state governments.

The EU common market is going through similar pressures. Regulation is required in order to increase the amount of trade. If you don't agree inter-state standards, then states may end up with beggar-thy-neighbour policies. For example, one country might decide to lower labour standards, or environmental standards, and due to cheap labour or polluting industry, grab a larger share of the market in some sector. The result is that other states either similarly lower their standards in a race to the bottom, or they enact trade barriers and tariffs to compensate for the foreign competition. The end result is that reducing tariffs and barriers to trade requires internationally agreed standards.

(This is why people who blame the EU for red tape are utter fools. The whole shebang cannot possibly work without red tape. The point is to work within the system, and change the kind of tape - outside the system, you're in a much smaller market with far higher barriers to trade, and overcoming those barriers will mean more red tape, red tape you don't have any say in. Utter fools - no other word for the idiots.)

The EU is a standard-producing and standard-enforcing organization. For as long as it has stuck strictly to technical items, it works pretty well. But two flies in the ointment: (a) beggar-thy-neighbour policies aren't restricted to technical regulations, but also some areas that people feel like their government should have the ultimitate say on; and (b) the explicit intent of the EU, ever since it was a European Community, is to integrate such that war would be so economically painful as to be inconceivable.

Because of (b), the EU, in its DNA, doesn't feel restricted in enforcing standards deeper into member states' policies, and because of (a), it has reason to do so, it risks pissing some people off.

Climate change, and the resulting famine in Syria (drought from 2006 to 2011), resulting in civil war and waves of immigrants (also not helped by 9/11 etc.), has caused the EU to try the same technocratic approach to the immigration crisis. Unfortunately, people aren't as willing to accept regulations enforcing immigration as they are in enforcing motorcycle gear safety standards (CE means certified for EU).

This has resulted in a different kind of crisis: a split in populations across Europe, in different proportions, between those who self-identify as European, as part of a pan-EU polis, and those who still think in nationalist terms, in some cases actually reverting to nationalism they had lost for a long time.

(Brexit is English nationalism, not British nationalism. Latent English nationalism from the slow decay of the British empire is emerging, and its lack of a political outlet is in part what drove Brexit. English people who identify as British (as opposed to English) are by and large pro-EU, while Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish people who identify as British are by and large anti-EU. These are fundamental growing cracks in the United Kingdom, and won't be solved by Brexit, because they are caused by English nationalism and disintegration of empire.)

Geopolitically, Putin, and increasingly Trump, are leveraging the split in the European polis to weaken the EU. The EU is nothing militarily, but is a superpower in trade and regulation. Russia is using its hard power to expose EU weakness on the eastern front, and propaganda to encourage political weakness inside the EU. Meanwhile, America is having an identity crisis coming to terms with being second place to China economically, and is increasingly turning to hard power - the one big lever they have left - to try and shore up their economic position. Trump won't be the last big-mouth saber-rattler to occupy the White House. I suspect he will win re-election, and I further suspect he will be succeeded (possibly after a break of 4 or 8 years) by someone much more sinister, who saw how Trump leveraged US voter fear into power. Trump is too old.

Thus Brexit is Britain casting off its moorings and heading out into hostile waters, just when the EU is under attack, the US is not a friend, and all its previous Empire possessions are focused on rising powers, not declining powers like Britain. Australia and New Zealand will be focused on the East - they know what's important to them. Canada will be focused on the US. And the US will be focused on itself, and antagonistic to both China and EU.

Hard to tell how the EU resolves itself. One of the best unifying things that can happen for a movement or a country is a common enemy (bin Laden knew exactly what he was doing when he provoked the US, he was creating future recruits). EU solidarity has been increased by Brexit, and especially by cack-handed attempts by the British to divide the rest of the EU. Brexit is a clear and present danger to Ireland, a hostile act by an unfriendly nation. But Britain isn't a long-term villain, as soon as the British people recognize their situation, their minds will gradually change - the US is not a friendlier port than the EU, and in fact is an increasingly foreign country to Western European values.

Russia, US, China - these are in all probability future EU enemies. Geopolitically and economically, it's hard to see otherwise. The US as a global cop, with moral superiority - those days are over. The US is just as cynically self-interested as everyone else. We'll see how the EU reacts. One thing for sure: if it splits further, it'll be picked off by the other big players.

And Britain alone is a very small player.
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Last edited by barrkel on 23:10 - 03 Nov 2018; edited 1 time in total
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 23:08 - 03 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

barrkel wrote:
Climate change, and the resulting famine in Syria (drought from 2006 to 2011), resulting in civil war and...



Õ.o
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barrkel
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PostPosted: 23:11 - 03 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riejufixing wrote:
barrkel wrote:
Climate change, and the resulting famine in Syria (drought from 2006 to 2011), resulting in civil war and...



Õ.o


https://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/is-a-lack-of-water-to-blame-for-the-conflict-in-syria-72513729/

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/03/science/earth/study-links-syria-conflict-to-drought-caused-by-climate-change.html

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/12/understanding-syria-from-pre-civil-war-to-post-assad/281989/

Find out what's going on in the world, mate. Actions have consequences, and they're going to keep on consequenting, no matter how long people try to pretend they can act with impunity.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 23:16 - 03 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

barrkel wrote:
Find out what's going on in the world, mate.


Perhaps drought was the cause of the "civil war" (sic) in Libya and elsewhere, too, "mate". Edit: You could even read the links you posted.
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 23:31 - 03 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Val seems to think that if we have a fair legal vote then remain will win it.

I wont be changing my vote, and neither will anyone I know.
The leavers want to leave and the remainers want to remain.

There is one oddity where someone who voted remain wants to vote to leave now, but he's a buffoon we all laugh at.
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 23:35 - 03 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:
Val seems to think that if we have a fair legal vote then remain will win it.

I wont be changing my vote, and neither will anyone I know.
The leavers want to leave and the remainers want to remain.

There is one oddity where someone who voted remain wants to vote to leave now, but he's a buffoon we all laugh at.


Bodyguard?
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 23:55 - 03 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:
Val seems to think that if we have a fair legal vote then remain will win it.

I wont be changing my vote, and neither will anyone I know.
The leavers want to leave and the remainers want to remain.

But those who want another vote would deliberately split the Leave vote into different options so 48% Remain becomes the majority. It's a ploy.
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