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ThunderGuts |
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ThunderGuts World Chat Champion
Joined: 13 Nov 2018 Karma :
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Posted: 13:04 - 13 Nov 2018 Post subject: Kawasaki ER5 - fuel logic! |
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Afternoon all,
A long time lurker of the forum, it's proved a very useful place for information! I now have a question of my own . .
Last night my 2006 ER5 (bought a few weeks ago and I think it had been standing for a while before purchase, at least 4/5 months, maybe longer) decided to start leaking petrol everywhere when I stopped. It's been ridden about 70 miles since I got it (only got MOT'd last week) and it's been fine until then. Fortunately a fire didn't occur despite it spilling onto the header pipes with impressive quantities of smoke!
Anyway, the bike is home now and I want to try and solve the problem myself if I can. I'm new to bikes (and carb'd engines!) so I'm hoping someone can check to see if my logic is correct?
So, the bike uses a vacuum operated petcock (on/reserve/prime). The bike was leaking petrol out of the airbox (or it looked like that anyway, it was certainly further back than the carbs themselves) and continued to leak until the fuel level was sufficiently low presumably to have dropped to the high level pickup in the tank. The tank itself was lifted and was dry underneath, so the leak isn't from the tank itself or the pipework there.
First conclusion(?) - the connection between the tank and the petcock didn't appear to have any leaks, so for fuel to continue to flow past this point without the engine running must mean the automatic/vacuum petcock had failed? I will double check this by spinning it onto reserve with a can under the fuel pipe and would expect fuel to flow, even though it shouldn't as only the prime should bypass the vacuum diaphragm?
First question: if this is the case, would the carb allow enough fuel through to create the above symptoms (petrol was flowing out almost at a trickle, not quite a steady stream but not far off - it emptied about 7 litres of petrol out in about an hour)?
Second question: I'm reasonably handy with a spanner (used to work on cars, although never touched a carb) - is it easy enough to service a petcock with an eBay type repair kit and check the carbs for cleanliness?
Third (last!) question: I think it'd be good to change the fuel lines as there seems to be splits in at least one of them (although it isn't leaking, the split is on the cut end of the pipe after the sealing clamp); is fuel line just fuel line? I presume I replace the little wire sealing clamps with new ones?
Cheers all and apologies for launching into all this on my first post! ____________________ TG. |
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Suntan Sid |
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Suntan Sid World Chat Champion
Joined: 07 May 2009 Karma :
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Posted: 13:16 - 13 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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Check your engine oil, it's probably now over filled with a lovely petrol/oil mix!
Had exactly the same problem with a mates ER5, check the carb diaphragms for the tiniest hole/split. ____________________ "Everybody needs money, that's why they call it money!" |
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ThunderGuts |
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ThunderGuts World Chat Champion
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jaffa90 |
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jaffa90 World Chat Champion
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pompousporcup... |
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pompousporcup... World Chat Champion
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ThunderGuts |
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ThunderGuts World Chat Champion
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andy_uk |
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andy_uk World Chat Champion
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ThunderGuts |
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ThunderGuts World Chat Champion
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Posted: 22:07 - 13 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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Confirmed - petcock is letting fuel past on reserve, only a little dribble but it shouldn’t be letting anything past. Dismantled it and it’s in a state! Deposits everywhere including where the o ring seats which isn’t going to help it seal! See pic attached.
Repair kid ordered now ____________________ TG. |
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pompousporcup... |
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pompousporcup... World Chat Champion
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Robby |
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Robby Dirty Old Man
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ThunderGuts |
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ThunderGuts World Chat Champion
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Robby |
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Robby Dirty Old Man
Joined: 16 May 2002 Karma :
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Posted: 09:44 - 14 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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Fuel residue does eventually turn into a mixture of brown sludge, brown grit, and greenish crystals. Bear in mind this isn't just fuel turning into strange things all by itself, but it's also carrying little bits of rust from the steel fuel tank, and little bits of alloy corrosion from the fuel tap.
Clean it all up, replace rubber bits where necessary, and it will work.
Normally at this point I would also recommend fitting an inline fuel filter, but I've had them cause problems with vacuum petcocks. The vacuum petcock works by having manifold air pressure on one side, and (uncompressible) fuel on the other. When the engine is running the low pressure from the manifold pulls the diaphragm back against its spring and lets fuel flow.
This is fine until you introduce a big air bubble on the fuel side (at the top of the filter). Then you get inconsistent pressure on the fuel side of the diaphragm, which can allow it to close up and stop the fuel flow.
Varies from bike to bike, but it can be a pain the arse to diagnose. |
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ThunderGuts |
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ThunderGuts World Chat Champion
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Posted: 10:47 - 14 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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Robby wrote: | Fuel residue does eventually turn into a mixture of brown sludge, brown grit, and greenish crystals. Bear in mind this isn't just fuel turning into strange things all by itself, but it's also carrying little bits of rust from the steel fuel tank, and little bits of alloy corrosion from the fuel tap.
Clean it all up, replace rubber bits where necessary, and it will work.
Normally at this point I would also recommend fitting an inline fuel filter, but I've had them cause problems with vacuum petcocks. The vacuum petcock works by having manifold air pressure on one side, and (uncompressible) fuel on the other. When the engine is running the low pressure from the manifold pulls the diaphragm back against its spring and lets fuel flow.
This is fine until you introduce a big air bubble on the fuel side (at the top of the filter). Then you get inconsistent pressure on the fuel side of the diaphragm, which can allow it to close up and stop the fuel flow.
Varies from bike to bike, but it can be a pain the arse to diagnose. |
Cheers. The petcock I don't think should be affected by fuel filters as the vacuum diaphragm pulling the valve open I don't think should have any effect, as long as gravity does the job of letting fuel flow fairly freely through the filters? Intend to put a filter on both main and reserve lines before the petcock to keep that clean too ____________________ TG. |
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Robby |
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Robby Dirty Old Man
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stinkwheel |
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stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :
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Posted: 14:11 - 14 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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Although to be overspilling your both the fuel cock has to be malfunctioning AND the needle valves in the carb need to be leaking.
It's new enough that the needle valves shouldn't be affected by ethanol. I had this problem on a mid 90's GPZ500 motor (very similar to yours) and they were jamming open. So if the needle valves are furry with white alloy corrosion, I'd replace them.
However, to a degree, it's the fuel taps job to stop fuel overspill when parked up. To quote the Bing carburettor company (who make carbs for BMW) when someone complained about leaky carbs. "We make carburettors, not fuel taps, turn the fuel off when it's parked.". Your vacuum tap does this automatically.
One way to check for leaks without taking the carb off is to attach a bit of clear plastic hose to the drain stub on the carburettor and run it up alongside the carb body. Put the fuel tap on prime and open the carb drain screw. If the needle valve is properly closed, the fuel level in the hose will rise to just below the float bowl flange. If it's leaking or there is a problem with the float, it will land up above the flange.
Thanks for keeping us updated, it's good to know how people get on with advice. ____________________ “Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles. |
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pompousporcup... |
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pompousporcup... World Chat Champion
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Posted: 14:42 - 14 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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if you're going to fit a filter, get one for an early zzr600. They fit in the stock fuel line going into the carbs and won't cause fuel starvation like some of the bulky inline filters do
edit:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/2005-Kawasaki-Zzr600-OEM-Carburetor-Fuel-Filter/1030308019
One like this. The squared edged sometimes need to be sanded down so it fits nicely in the fuel intake tube in the carbs. There is a guide on one of the gpz500 forums
ps. get it from Fowlers UK, not ebay
Last edited by pompousporcupine on 10:15 - 15 Nov 2018; edited 1 time in total |
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ThunderGuts |
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ThunderGuts World Chat Champion
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pompousporcup... World Chat Champion
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ThunderGuts |
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ThunderGuts World Chat Champion
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jaffa90 |
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jaffa90 World Chat Champion
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Posted: 11:39 - 15 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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bikenut |
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bikenut World Chat Champion
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Posted: 12:01 - 15 Nov 2018 Post subject: tap |
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Modern coolants dont like to be mixed, so clean/flush your system and pick a suitable coolant, then stick to it.
So tank ( including the fuel filler cap and any vents etc. ) is all clean and ready to go, along with the vac tap.
See cmsnl exploded views for your bike, there is probably a manual for it on here as well.
Clean the outside of the carbs before you "go inside" so that no outside crap joins the inside crap. Study the cmsnl exploded views of the carb and the manual, there is some delicate stuff in them.
Tackle one carb at a time, is it completely necessary to "split" the carbs into individual units ?
I dont have a sonic cleaner, but am saving for one. So the old fashioned way will have to suffice for now. Get a container ( an old gallon plastic can cleaned ) and cut the top off in such a way so that fluid poured in along with the carbs, level so the carbs are completely submerged.
You can also add stuff to displace the cleaning fluid so you don't need so much.
Make a lid form the container.
The fluid i use is petrol dosed with a full bottle of the red ex fuel cleaner, carbs left submerged for a week, agitated during the week ever day, just a lift out and then re drowned.
I strip the carbs of all strippable stuff such as jets, floats, needle valves, pistons and diaphragms and any rubber stuff, anything that the petrol and cleaner will attack, but leave them connected as one unit of 2 carbs.
Keep all carb stuff with that carb so the left float goes back into the left carb etc.. You can leave the jets etc in the cleaning fluid.
Its important to clean the outside crap off the carbs first, saves on cleaning fluid that can be saved ( twill turn black ) and filtered......
When you ready to re assemble the crabs, check all jets are clear, they have tiny holes, and all carb passages etc are all clear. A pump type oil can can prove carb passages are clear, or use a spray with the tiny tube.
Compressed air is great but verify passages and tiny holes are all clear first.
There is ample info on the net to explain how a carb works, if you understand how a plane flies and knopw some plumbing your half way there.
Honda do a good guide how the carbs for there bikes work but there are others.
You have an mot so no worries about a stuck clutch, brakes and valves etc..
enjoy. ____________________ nuts about bikes |
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ThunderGuts |
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ThunderGuts World Chat Champion
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pompousporcup... |
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pompousporcup... World Chat Champion
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Posted: 14:59 - 15 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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ThunderGuts |
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ThunderGuts World Chat Champion
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ThunderGuts |
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ThunderGuts World Chat Champion
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 5 years, 163 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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