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oldpink
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PostPosted: 22:36 - 24 Nov 2018    Post subject: Does this class me as a bicycleist Reply with quote

so for the last few years my brother has been custom building E bikes
he started off with imported batteries but found they were badly made and never near the claimed output
so now he builds his own with a lot more output and efficiency
he also custom spokes the wheels to handle the torque

up till now I have resisted but I finally borrowed one of his older test bikes with a Chinese battery thats a bit crap according to my brother
with a range of 15 miles on the power and about 20 mph on a flat road with no peddle input

I needed something to go to the shops or up to 10 mile round trips over the winter as my 600 RR isn't good on snow and ice

TBH I was surprised with the torque and it felt pretty quick and I only peddled when I wanted to
this model has a twist throttle so has power on tap when you want unlike the new E Bikes that have to be peddle assist only
and you can select low med or high output if you want speed or range

only issue I have is I kept forgetting I was not on the RR and should be on the side of the road not the middle
and it has no wing mirrors that I kept looking down for and it was just a bit tall with the seat full down for me

may look at getting him to build me one like his as he's had it over 35 mph and over 50 mile range even if your heavy on the right wrist Wink
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I have become comfortably numb

Theory & hazard 24-may 2016, CBT 8th June 2016, MOD 1 2nd Aug 2016 Mod 2 2nd-Nov 2016 - Current bike CBR 600 RR
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M.C
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PostPosted: 22:55 - 24 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought electric bikes could only legally do 15mph on the battery? If we ever get the faster ones they have in Europe then I'll be interested.
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oldpink
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PostPosted: 23:05 - 24 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was well over 15mph with just battery today
I'll be talking to my brother later I'll ask, he did tell me this bike falls outside the current rules as it was built before they changes some regulations

but I have been on my RR and my brother was keeping up with me till over 30 mph a few months back and that was up a hill
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Theory & hazard 24-may 2016, CBT 8th June 2016, MOD 1 2nd Aug 2016 Mod 2 2nd-Nov 2016 - Current bike CBR 600 RR
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oldpink
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PostPosted: 23:14 - 24 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

quick check on the rules and I think this explains why he's over the spec's
he did tell me he has invoices for the throttle assembly's from before the reg change
and if I was stopped to tell the cops it was under grandfather rules Thumbs Up

Quote:
E-bikes controlled by a throttle where there is no need for the pedals to be turning to engage the motor – so-called ‘twist and go’ machines. New models of these kind are now classified under EU law under the L1e-A ‘powered cycles’ category that allows power up to 1000w, with power assistance cutting out at 15.5mph. Twist and gos are potentially very helpful for those with any kind of condition that severely limits a pedalling action, but the procedure and exact requirements for registering them remain unclear. Note twist and go e-bikes bought before the introduction of the new laws and limited to a 250W motor rating remain effectively legal and so can be legally purchased and used as second hand models.

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I have become comfortably numb

Theory & hazard 24-may 2016, CBT 8th June 2016, MOD 1 2nd Aug 2016 Mod 2 2nd-Nov 2016 - Current bike CBR 600 RR


Last edited by oldpink on 23:20 - 24 Nov 2018; edited 1 time in total
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Bikeless
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PostPosted: 23:17 - 24 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Needs road tyres for moar speed.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 23:22 - 24 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

For use on snow or ice, these are handy: http://www.wiggle.co.uk/schwalbe-marathon-winter-performance-rigid-mtb-tyre-1/
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oldpink
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PostPosted: 23:43 - 24 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

apparently my brothers has a 500w motor in his front hub
his "customer" bikes have 250w motors
he's also messing with some mid drives that allow you to use the gears

he pointed out even with a provisional you can register the bike as an E bike for £50 and drive a full power one and insure it
and no MOT or tax as long as it has brakes it will basically pass
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I have become comfortably numb

Theory & hazard 24-may 2016, CBT 8th June 2016, MOD 1 2nd Aug 2016 Mod 2 2nd-Nov 2016 - Current bike CBR 600 RR
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M.C
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PostPosted: 23:45 - 24 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

oldpink wrote:
quick check on the rules and I think this explains why he's over the spec's
he did tell me he has invoices for the throttle assembly's from before the reg change
and if I was stopped to tell the cops it was under grandfather rules Thumbs Up

Quote:
E-bikes controlled by a throttle where there is no need for the pedals to be turning to engage the motor – so-called ‘twist and go’ machines. New models of these kind are now classified under EU law under the L1e-A ‘powered cycles’ category that allows power up to 1000w, with power assistance cutting out at 15.5mph. Twist and gos are potentially very helpful for those with any kind of condition that severely limits a pedalling action, but the procedure and exact requirements for registering them remain unclear. Note twist and go e-bikes bought before the introduction of the new laws and limited to a 250W motor rating remain effectively legal and so can be legally purchased and used as second hand models.

AFAIK the old twist and go ebikes (pre-2016 I think) were still limited to 15mph.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 23:46 - 24 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

oldpink wrote:
he pointed out even with a provisional you can register the bike as an E bike for £50 and drive a full power one and insure it
and no MOT or tax as long as it has brakes it will basically pass

Interesting. Did he mention who insures them? I think Germany has a government scheme.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 00:00 - 25 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules
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oldpink
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PostPosted: 00:16 - 25 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
AFAIK the old twist and go ebikes (pre-2016 I think) were still limited to 15mph.


my brother said no there was no limit in the Uk (possibly some EU conuntry's were different)

as to ins he said there are some motorcycle insurers that cover E bikes already (you can buy full class E motocycles these days) and some specialist cycle company's

but as he said who's to tell when or who made the bike as it doesn't have a log book so what can the cops prove Wink
esp on a custom made bike you could have built from a kit

the law is pretty vague on it
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I have become comfortably numb

Theory & hazard 24-may 2016, CBT 8th June 2016, MOD 1 2nd Aug 2016 Mod 2 2nd-Nov 2016 - Current bike CBR 600 RR


Last edited by oldpink on 00:22 - 25 Nov 2018; edited 1 time in total
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oldpink
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PostPosted: 00:21 - 25 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riejufixing wrote:
https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules


only applies to bikes built after 2016 Thumbs Up
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I have become comfortably numb

Theory & hazard 24-may 2016, CBT 8th June 2016, MOD 1 2nd Aug 2016 Mod 2 2nd-Nov 2016 - Current bike CBR 600 RR
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 01:40 - 25 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

oldpink wrote:
Riejufixing wrote:
https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules


only applies to bikes built after 2016 Thumbs Up


"may look at getting him to build me one like his as he's had it over 35 mph and over 50 mile range even if your heavy on the right wrist Wink"

It would apply to that one, regardless of whether it uses old components or not.
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oldpink
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PostPosted: 01:58 - 25 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riejufixing wrote:
It would apply to that one, regardless of whether it uses old components or not.


yep correct
he is seeking guidance on registering them as its a grey area
its like a track bike with a daytime MOT you don't need lights or indicators
basically as long as you can stop it (he uses disk brakes) you pass the regulations

but your average copper hasn't a clue as to the rules and reg's regarding E bikes
he does have an A1 full bike license so its a matter of what the regs say he needs
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I have become comfortably numb

Theory & hazard 24-may 2016, CBT 8th June 2016, MOD 1 2nd Aug 2016 Mod 2 2nd-Nov 2016 - Current bike CBR 600 RR
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M.C
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PostPosted: 02:03 - 25 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

oldpink wrote:
M.C wrote:
AFAIK the old twist and go ebikes (pre-2016 I think) were still limited to 15mph.


my brother said no there was no limit in the Uk (possibly some EU conuntry's were different)

There was: 'cannot propel the vehicle when it is travelling at more than 15 miles per hour.' I rode a couple before the law change and both cut out at 15mph. Under the new rules the throttle can (apparently) only be used up to 6kph, but that doesn't mean on older bikes you can do 30 mph.

I'm not having an internet argument here Smile, its just that there have been a few cases where people have been riding an 'illegal' ebike, one of them the guy got hit by a bus who refused to pay out because he shouldn't have been on the rode or some shite.
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oldpink
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PostPosted: 22:24 - 25 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
I'm not having an internet argument here Smile, its just that there have been a few cases where people have been riding an 'illegal' ebike, one of them the guy got hit by a bus who refused to pay out because he shouldn't have been on the rode or some shite.


I'm not up on the laws on it but my brother is and says yes you are correct but he markets and sells some of his bikes as off road
as well as ones compliant with the post 2016 changes the more powerful ones are sold as "off road models"
then its down to the rider not the manufacturer as to how its used

he's also working on kits to allow people to upgrade or build their own
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I have become comfortably numb

Theory & hazard 24-may 2016, CBT 8th June 2016, MOD 1 2nd Aug 2016 Mod 2 2nd-Nov 2016 - Current bike CBR 600 RR
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Sload
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PostPosted: 20:43 - 04 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, from my understandings the limitings are finals and there are no grey areas, also it will only go one way with it ala more authoritarian as more people flaunt it and hurt or kill etc.

As to your first question sure. Some peeps turn their nose up at E bikes, those noses deserve punching. If it gets you out when otherwise you couldn't, rock on.
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oldpink
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PostPosted: 01:45 - 06 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

well so far I'm loving it
so much I'm upgrading for more range and a bit more oomph
I used a geo tracker that said I was hitting 18.5 mph with the current setup but the Chinese battery is the weak link
as I have a fair knowledge of electronics's and circuits my brother wants me to help with the future design and construction of the battery's and cells and charging option

the plan is to build a custom bike for myself with some trick parts inc a mid drive motor
we want to test a variable rear hub gearing system as trying to use the conventional gears is not a real option
its like you need a quick shifter to cut the power while the chain changes sprockets
it tends to jump teeth and chew sprockets
the variable hub allows a smooth transition via another twist grip on the left bar or a thumb lever

I have been having fun on some green lane and off road cycle tracks on it
and having it to nip to the shops is great

these 2 are new off the production line
the blue one has a mid drive 750w motor the other is my brothers new bike thats been tested and run over 40mph in open mode
but has a limiter for city use and can operate in assisted power mode to comply with regulations
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I have become comfortably numb

Theory & hazard 24-may 2016, CBT 8th June 2016, MOD 1 2nd Aug 2016 Mod 2 2nd-Nov 2016 - Current bike CBR 600 RR
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struan80
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PostPosted: 23:09 - 08 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeez matey you have a lot going on. Did you see the panoramic of Mars that was taken? Smile
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G
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PostPosted: 10:37 - 10 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
he pointed out even with a provisional you can register the bike as an E bike for £50 and drive a full power one and insure it
and no MOT or tax as long as it has brakes it will basically pass

Did he mention needing to get it through an MSVA test too?
Because you do.
Some details of some one that's done it:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=42887&p=626945&hilit=register+an+electric+bike+uk#p626945
(They had this bike up for sale at a later point, I was tempted to buy it, but didn't in the end.

oldpink wrote:

but has a limiter for city use and can operate in assisted power mode to comply with regulations

If it's easily swappable, then it's questionable if it's legal I believe.

My latest project I haven't used much is a light weight full size folder. Intend for festival use. I've got a load of 4ah or so 36v battery packs I can use with this - hopefully I'll only need one or two at most per trip.
https://i.imgur.com/lfFl5wx.jpg
I plan to add a CVT rear hub (or internal geared).
I also have a direct drive hub drive 1000w which has a trailer with a further two geared hub motors (high windings for slow speed/more torque) each set at around 1000w.
https://i.imgur.com/py4iVI2.jpg
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G
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PostPosted: 09:57 - 11 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, I hadn't realised the laws had moved on a bit, which is nice...
You can now have up to 1000w on an approved bike - either type approval or get your own one approved I believe, providing it's also limited to 25kph/15.5mph, you're legal to use it anywhere a push bike can be.

Hopefully a really good move for town and city commuters.
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Sload
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PostPosted: 10:08 - 11 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

G wrote:
Okay, I hadn't realised the laws had moved on a bit, which is nice...
You can now have up to 1000w on an approved bike - either type approval or get your own one approved I believe, providing it's also limited to 25kph/15.5mph, you're legal to use it anywhere a push bike can be.

Hopefully a really good move for town and city commuters.


Oh that is interesting. 1kW is massive overkill mind.
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G
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PostPosted: 12:50 - 11 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speak for yourself Wink.

1kw mid drive through gears in low gears should be reasonably rapid.

I think I've irked a cruiser before when the push bike matched their rather noisy launch acceleration Smile.
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Sload
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PostPosted: 14:17 - 11 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, without the limiter Wink Very rapid.

I nearly went E bike at the start of this year, glad I didn't as my fitness bumped up pretty well. looking at the century next.

Still for towing that trailer, bet its nice Laughing

I went the other way and fitted an anti motor

https://cdn.bcf.44bytes.net/files/img_20181117_082149.jpg
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G
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PostPosted: 15:24 - 11 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sload wrote:
Yes, without the limiter Wink Very rapid.

The limiter only an issue for speed rather than slower speed acceleration. Often the direct drive 1000w is power limited, so gearing not an issue.

In the end, it's 1000W, not a 1000cc bike making 150kw!

As per the post, the trailer gets an extra 2x 1kw. Which with it empty does actually speed it up a little, working as a 'pusher' unit.
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