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af1 125 sintesi stator help

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27alan
L Plate Warrior



Joined: 25 Nov 2018
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PostPosted: 22:15 - 25 Nov 2018    Post subject: af1 125 sintesi stator help Reply with quote

Hi, im new to this forum and stuck on an electrical problem with an af1.
It has the rotax 123 engine. the bike was running well and then just cut out, found it has no spark, when i checked a few things out i found the ht lead in the coil had snapped the screw fitting so coil was us. I purchased another coil/cdi with the same numbers (blue one ) but no joy with a spark, any ideas would be great thanks Alan

ps, is there any way of checking output from stator, i have a multi meter and not a lot of knowledge of electrics.
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bikenut
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PostPosted: 11:17 - 26 Nov 2018    Post subject: wiring Reply with quote

same old same old, get a wiring diagram !

some pics of engine and stator and wires and cdi etc would help. Did the engine just cut out dead or did it seem down on power, or splutter, then die ?

How are you checking for spark ?

multi meter has acv setting say 2v, 20v and 200v AC ??

You have the correct ht coil ?

And, probably the first question to ask, how is the handle bar ign kill switch, how is the ign killed, by earthing a cdi wire ??
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rs700
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PostPosted: 12:19 - 26 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

check the magnets on your flywheel. If they have hit the magneto your ignition will no longer work.
unfortunately i cant load pictures on how to check the magneto on here.
Dont know why, the picture number wont load, not telling me why.
(message me with your email by message and i ll send pictures)

there are aftermarket options ( a good oe sem magneto costs £200 p!us, most ebay crap ones are broken !)

https://www.hpi.be/item.php?item=ST5525L
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27alan
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Joined: 25 Nov 2018
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PostPosted: 21:00 - 26 Nov 2018    Post subject: af1 sintesi stator help Reply with quote

Thanks for the reply, i have a wiring diagram, and the bike is wired the same, the bike just cut out, was not down on power.
The cdi is part of the coil, which has 4 wires, The stator has 5 wires 2 go to the regulater and the other 3 to the coil, The cutout woks on the ign switch and stop switch on the bars, all seem to work ok with a continuity test.
Am i right thinking that the stator must be in 2 parts, one part for charging and the other part to power coil/cdi ? if so how do i check the part that powers coil /cdi
thanks in advance, Alan
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rs700
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PostPosted: 15:44 - 27 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

i cant post a picture , the readings from the rotax manual is
red to black 1665 ohms
redto green 1687
green to black 24
lighting cables light blue tolight blue 0.3 ohms
tolerance is +- 15%

the sem stator is very weak. They break for no reason. They break if they are clipped by the flywheel, andthe magnets on the flywheel fall of, they break the stator, (if you dont use the correct puller the magnets fall off)
dont buy second hand stators from ebay, they are always broken.

The 122 flywheel and stator wont fit.
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rs700
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PostPosted: 01:30 - 29 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

hpi do direct replacement for the stator, you use the original flywheel.
They list ....
https://www.hpi.be/sem.php
direct replacement for the sem stator.
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27alan
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Joined: 25 Nov 2018
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PostPosted: 20:39 - 29 Nov 2018    Post subject: af1 125 sintesi stator help Reply with quote

Thanks for the info rs700, i saw a few others selling the complete kit including the flywheel, cdi and seperate coil, but you cant use electric start with them.
I will do some more checking over the weekend on the bike and then make a decision,

Cheers Alan
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Nobby the Bastard
Harley Gaydar



Joined: 16 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: 21:19 - 29 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

The stator isn't directly responsible for the spark unless you have no battery.

The stator generates 12v dc (via a rectifier/regulatorl the same as a battery.
Start with checking the voltage over the battery.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 21:35 - 29 Nov 2018    Post subject: Re: af1 sintesi stator help Reply with quote

27alan wrote:
Thanks for the reply, i have a wiring diagram, and the bike is wired the same, the bike just cut out, was not down on power.
The cdi is part of the coil, which has 4 wires, The stator has 5 wires 2 go to the regulater and the other 3 to the coil, The cutout woks on the ign switch and stop switch on the bars, all seem to work ok with a continuity test.
Am i right thinking that the stator must be in 2 parts, one part for charging and the other part to power coil/cdi ? if so how do i check the part that powers coil /cdi
thanks in advance, Alan


You seem to be using magneto and stator interchangeably. A magneto generates ac for lights. A stator works in conjunction with a Reg/rec to make 12v dc (actually nearer 14v) to charge a battery.

I've never come across a case where magnets on a flywheel have either twatted something or come loose except immediately after a badly done rebuild or when the crank bearings have failed.

If its the later of those two the lack of spark is the least of your problems.
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 13:31 - 08 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

The Sintesi uses a basic SEM ignition system. There is no separate cdi unit, just the stator and coil. It doesn’t rely on the battery at all. There are only 3 wires to the rest of the electrics. One from the coil, and earthing that acts to kill the sparks , and two from the stator carrying AC to the regulator/ rectifier.

First check is to disconnect the wire from the coil to the kill switch. If it then sparks the fault is in the main wiring to the ignition or kill switch.

The stator can fail, as can the coils. But think Electrex sell replacements of these. Flywheels are the difficult bit as they crack and lose the magnets. They are also pretty much unavailable. There is a company who makes replacement flywheels, stator sand coils, but it has no provisions for a starter motor.

Katy
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Robby
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PostPosted: 17:23 - 08 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

The CB250RS uses a somewhat similar setup. One of the tricks when that won't spark is to disconnect the feed from the alternator to the reg/rec. By whatever magic is in play, this seems to let the alternator coil for the ignition get a bit more power.

The other thing to do is see if you have any output from the alternator on the ignition wire. Set your multimeter to AC volts, probably in the 20-200V range. Put the red probe on the wire from the alternator, put the black probe on the frame. Hit the starter button or kick it over, and see if you get any reading at all.
If you get anything at all (it will be intermittent and variable) then the problem is more likely to be in the ignition coil. If you get nothing, the problem is more likely to be in the alternator.
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27alan
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Joined: 25 Nov 2018
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PostPosted: 20:57 - 08 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, thanks for the replies,i will have a check on monday and see what voltages i am getting from the stator. The flywheel looks in good condition, all magnets in place and not loose or chipped, although 1 tooth is damaged from the ring gear. I have tried disconnecting the wire that goes to the kill switch, no difference. When i have checked the voltages i will post the results, i had put it down to stator and was just going to order a new one from electrex, or the firm in belgum that are a bit cheaper.

Cheers Alan.
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27alan
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PostPosted: 16:53 - 10 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the help so far, i have just checked the voltages from the stator, 5 wires, 2 x blue (to the reg/rec) 0.8v ac when cranking jumping to 75-80 volt as i release the button, the wires to the coil were,
Red 21v dc when cranking, 80 v as i release button
Green 0.3v dc when cranking, 30v as i release the button
Black 0.6v dc when cranking, 60v as i release the button.

The readings seem strange that they jump so high as i release the starter button, surely this cant be right ?
Any ideas would be great.
cheers Alan
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bikenut
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PostPosted: 17:00 - 10 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Post the wiring diagram....
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27alan
L Plate Warrior



Joined: 25 Nov 2018
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PostPosted: 21:06 - 10 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

here are some photos, sorry about quality,
for some reason it wont let me upload the wiring diagram
its the standard af1 sintesi diagram from the net
https://cdn.bcf.44bytes.net/files/wiring_554.jpg

thanks in advance, Alan
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bikenut
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PostPosted: 10:44 - 11 Dec 2018    Post subject: stator Reply with quote

The pictures tell me very little apart form the fact that the "unit" is slightly adjustable where it fits onto the engine, is sealed and has only a few wires visible.

How many wires are coming out of this stator, just the 2 blues and the black?

I assume you have not done any painting on the bike and the stator has a good earth, which may not be required.

You can see the windings under the clearish epoxy, can you suss out how it is wired and are any windings "burnt". Does the stator give off the electrical burnt out smell?

Post the wiring diagram which will show much more.

Is the ign system battery dependent ? the wiring diagram will show if it is.
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Meatybeaty
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PostPosted: 11:21 - 11 Dec 2018    Post subject: Wiring Reply with quote

Diagram
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rs700
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PostPosted: 18:57 - 11 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

did you check the results with the multimeter as on 27 nov post ?
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27alan
L Plate Warrior



Joined: 25 Nov 2018
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PostPosted: 22:15 - 11 Dec 2018    Post subject: af1 125 sintesi stator help Reply with quote

Hi, thanks for the replies, the stator has 5 wires as per the diagram meatybeaty posted (thanks).
The ignition system is not battery dependant, and there is no sign or smell of burning from the stator, i was riding the bike when it cut out dead

Cheers Alan
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Nobby the Bastard
Harley Gaydar



Joined: 16 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: 22:45 - 11 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are 3 wires to the cdi.

One neutral/return.
One trigger. (a momentary pulse to trigger the cdi)
One that powers the capacitor.

You should be able to get continuity with a measurabe resistance between two out of the three potential pairs to the cdi and no continuity in the third if thats the case.

I have the horrid feeling that the centre of the stqtor is connecting to different coils as it rotates though. Which complicates matters....
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27alan
L Plate Warrior



Joined: 25 Nov 2018
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PostPosted: 01:44 - 18 Jan 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a quick update, thanks for all the help and advice.
I bought a coil and tried that, still no spark, so i ordered a used stator from germany (£60 with postage ) fitted that and hey presto up she fired, so ive got to put all the fairings back on and get it up the garage for its mot
fingers crossed for that now.
thanks again for all the advice.
cheers Alan
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rs700
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PostPosted: 18:38 - 18 Jan 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

keep an eye out for another "spare" ! The SEM is not reliable, and will go wrong like the first 2. Its the flywheel that can kill the magneto !
here is my af1
https://i.postimg.cc/RJwDzCXn/KGr-Hq-MOKoo-FGW6-Th-KDi-BRv-Hq-Fwy-WQ48-27-zpsa8c7b901.jpg

picture of the bike please !
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bikenut
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PostPosted: 11:22 - 19 Jan 2019    Post subject: genny Reply with quote

make a note of resistances and outputs of the "new" genny and compare with the old.......for your future needs
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