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Motorhate
Nearly there...



Joined: 02 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: 09:33 - 29 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
MCN wrote:
Ceramic Paste is the New Gloop for brake pads. 😎

BMW recommended part for car brakes.

I clean out the sliding areas of the calipers on my bikes and smear a smidgen of ceramic paste on the sliding surfaces of pads. Some where the piston pushes the pad too.

It was used mainly as an anti-squeal remedy. Steel to steel will chatter/vibrate/resonate in a disc brake system. Interrupting the vibration path limits the possibility of squeal.
Pads (some) now come with a plastic shim to prevent squeal..


Thing is, he says EBC recommend using copper slip on the pads when they actually say no such thing. I've never used any grease on a brake PAD as there's no need. It'll just attract dirt and dust and there's no need. Possibly on the pins that the pads slide on but never on the pads.


talkToTheHat wrote:
I think it's a bit harsh to have a go at dellboy for accepted practices* ? It's still done by Doncaster Motorcycles' Kev and Neil who frequently appear in (is it their own column or are they just media whores?) MCN's workshop warstories. And yes they're my local competent and freindly mechanics and I live in fear of finding my bike in MCN...


Do they actually use it on the back of the pad or on the pins?

Quote:
But Dellboy advocates increasing preload until there is no sag becasue more preload means stiffer suspention. I call dangerous bullshit.


Yes, this is the sort of shit that he comes out with that's downright dangerous. Another one was sanding off the chicken strips on a set of tyres - WHY OH FUCKING WHY?

Quote:
I make and heat treat my own inlay chisels, partly after watching delboy actually get semi-satisfactory results and having a high turnover of quite expensive fine chisels becasue of the nature of the work. I've not busted up a screwdriver that came with a decently tempered head, if I kill a screwdriver it's usually because it's made of something akin to chocolate rather than steel that can be hardened.


There really is no need to do this if you buy good quality tools and use them for what they were designed for (in the case of chisels used on wood). Dellboy has a habit of using tools in a manner they were not designed for. His piece de resistance is putting an angle-grinder in a vice and using it like bench grinder, when in the background he has a bench grinder sitting on a bench? Why?
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MCN
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Joined: 22 Jul 2015
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PostPosted: 09:35 - 29 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
talkToTheHat wrote:
What is this ceramic paste? Link to a product please?

Is copper grease on pins and backplates not a thing now? What about red rubber grease on the pistons?

I think it's a bit harsh to have a go at dellboy for accepted practices* ? It's still done by Doncaster Motorcycles' Kev and Neil who frequently appear in (is it their own column or are they just media whores?) MCN's workshop warstories. And yes they're my local competent and freindly mechanics and I live in fear of finding my bike in MCN...

But Dellboy advocates increasing preload until there is no sag becasue more preload means stiffer suspention. I call dangerous bullshit.

I make and heat treat my own inlay chisels, partly after watching delboy actually get semi-satisfactory results and having a high turnover of quite expensive fine chisels becasue of the nature of the work. I've not busted up a screwdriver that came with a decently tempered head, if I kill a screwdriver it's usually becasue it's made of something akin to chocoloate rather than steel that can be hardened. It's occaisonally handy to watch a doofus take somehting apart knowing they're more likely to trip over the things that you can scew up with, whereas a pro technician will have something apart in seconds and make it look easy.

That said my favourite stunt when sumoned to deal with a freind's car that is being difficult it to spray plusgas on the rolling disasterpiece and perhaps hit it with a hammer where needed beofre knocking on the door. One coffee later than the impossile disassembly is usally easy....


*As detailed in Haynes Bandit (95-04); Haynes Motorcycle Maintainance Techbook; Hugo Wilson Motorcycle Owner's Manual to name the first three books that came to hand.


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Putoline-Ceramic-Grease-Brake-Assembly-Paste-100-G-Tube-up-to-1500-C/332725558977?epid=1831722475&hash=item4d77fd1ec1:g:tIwAAOSwpJdbT0Hi

Copper Slip is still an acceptable remedy too.

The only issue is is some cnut slabbers too much on or contaminates the friction surfaces due to being a fcukin Mong-Tard.

If a pressure washer is used on the vehicle then of course scooting it into the brake calipers will wash out the magic.
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Monkeywrenche...
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Joined: 27 Mar 2015
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PostPosted: 10:50 - 29 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Almost all of the good quality Brake pads I fit come with a coating or laquer on the back that negates the need for additional priducts, those that don't usually have a shim that goes in there. No brake pad manufacturer recommends putting copper slip anywhere on a pad as far as I can see, with plenty specifically saying not to. the sliding surfaces should be treated with Ceramic grease though.
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rpsmith79
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Joined: 31 Jan 2017
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PostPosted: 10:55 - 29 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
mpd72 CPT wrote:
Motorhate wrote:

Thing is, he says EBC recommend using copper slip on the pads when they actually say no such thing. I've never used any grease on a brake PAD as there's no need. It'll just attract dirt and dust and there's no need. Possibly on the pins that the pads slide on but never on the pads.


You are meant to put a quick smear on the back of the pad to stop brake squeel. A lot of car pads will turn up with a small plastic sachet of high temp grease, Copperslip is also used as it's good for high temps.

I'll be honest, I never normally bother on a bike, but on a car I do.


But that is not what Delbollocks was saying, have a watch of this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3MDXUT8RtA&t=1023s
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Sister Sledge
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Joined: 17 Aug 2018
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PostPosted: 11:30 - 29 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
I've been watching the Matt/Delboy saga for some time and the problem is Delboy appearing to sell out over time and start plugging some basically shite products. He started out as not too bad but his videos are nothing but cheap adverts. Any decent reviewer will point out bad bits as well as good bits - Delboy never has a bad thing to say and that should tell you all.

My problem is with safety and newbies not realising that things Delboy does can be incredibly dangerous and quite lethal. The Copperslip being just one example. Matt goes into great detail to explain the reasons why Copperslip is now not needed on most pads but also the engineering behind brake squeal and what the actual issue is - Copperslip is literally masking over a brake problem..

If we admit the truth to ourselves we'll accept that life can be and is shit. It can be very boring too. We goo for weeks sometimes and nothing exciting happens.
This YouTuber gets on my tits. She's leggy, blonde and attractive. Viewers care little about the actual content and just want to ride her.
Look at some footage - just about any of her videos will do. If you've ever been down to a gravelly riverbank and looked around, you'll know fine well that 'finds' just don't show themselves the way they do to her. Most of her stuff is fake and placed there. Dry finds on wet med where everything else is wet except her find. Stuff with no dirt inside or perhaps dry inside. The list goes on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s980MmUtAuk

Edit: The clean coin find at around 10 minutes is a prime example.
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inline4
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Joined: 20 May 2015
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PostPosted: 14:12 - 29 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Fourte wrote:
I've been watching the Matt/Delboy saga for some time


Saw a short youtube clip on this Matt chap's channel some weeks ago and regardless of what he claims to know comes across as a bit of a know it all and quite condescending. Bit of a Prima donna.
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Motorhate
Nearly there...



Joined: 02 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: 14:28 - 29 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
mpd72 CPT wrote:
You are meant to put a quick smear on the back of the pad to stop brake squeel. A lot of car pads will turn up with a small plastic sachet of high temp grease, Copperslip is also used as it's good for high temps.

I'll be honest, I never normally bother on a bike, but on a car I do.


NO YOU'RE NOT!!! Brake squeal is there for a reason. It's to alert you to the fact that your pads need changing. If you put grease on to stop this, you are putting yourself and any of your passengers at risk. Brakes are designed to squeal!


*** EDIT **** just seen the post above which explains this
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MarJay
But it's British!



Joined: 15 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: 14:41 - 29 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Motorhate wrote:


NO YOU'RE NOT!!! Brake squeal is there for a reason. It's to alert you to the fact that your pads need changing. If you put grease on to stop this, you are putting yourself and any of your passengers at risk. Brakes are designed to squeal!


*** EDIT **** just seen the post above which explains this


I don't think this is correct. I have plenty of bikes which have 'Anti squeal shims' on the back of the pads. So many Haynes manuals reccomend a smear of copper grease on the rear of the pad where the piston makes contact.

I think you are confusing Squeal shims on cars. My Mazda MX3 had these U shaped springs on the brake calipers which touch the discs when the pads are worn. This generates a kind of artificial squeal to warn you to change the brakes.
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M.C
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Joined: 29 Sep 2015
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PostPosted: 14:43 - 29 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Motorhate wrote:
mpd72 CPT wrote:
You are meant to put a quick smear on the back of the pad to stop brake squeel. A lot of car pads will turn up with a small plastic sachet of high temp grease, Copperslip is also used as it's good for high temps.

I'll be honest, I never normally bother on a bike, but on a car I do.


NO YOU'RE NOT!!! Brake squeal is there for a reason. It's to alert you to the fact that your pads need changing. If you put grease on to stop this, you are putting yourself and any of your passengers at risk. Brakes are designed to squeal!


*** EDIT **** just seen the post above which explains this

Not sure about that one, I thought the squeal was when the friction material has worn down, or sometimes when they're glazed or whatever (new brakes can also squeal for a bit). We used to often get people coming in with "oh my brakes are squealing" when they were fine.

I find a spirited ride or drive can also cause my brakes to squeal for a bit.
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Motorhate
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Joined: 02 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: 15:00 - 29 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
MarJay wrote:
I don't think this is correct. I have plenty of bikes which have 'Anti squeal shims' on the back of the pads. So many Haynes manuals reccomend a smear of copper grease on the rear of the pad where the piston makes contact.


Yes, cars sometimes have these shims (which are usually rubber and self-adhesive) to allow for slight imperfections in fit, although personally I don't think I've seen these on bikes. Sorry to say, the Haynes manual is wrong. On older cars if you are told to by the manufacturer, you should be using a high temperature ceramic grease (not copper grease) although on modern cars I don't think any manufacturer recommends using grease on a brake pad. As for bikes, I can't see any brake manufacturer recommending using copper grease on the pads.

Quote:
I think you are confusing Squeal shims on cars. My Mazda MX3 had these U shaped springs on the brake calipers which touch the discs when the pads are worn. This generates a kind of artificial squeal to warn you to change the brakes.


Possibly, and apologies for being slightly misleading on that, but if you smear the back of a brake pad with grease then you'll be getting a false reading from these squeal shims.

The bottom line is, as long as you buy good quality pads (that have shims if required) you just fit them on dry - there's no need for grease of any kind on motorcycle brake pads.
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MarJay
But it's British!



Joined: 15 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: 15:18 - 29 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Motorhate wrote:

Possibly, and apologies for being slightly misleading on that, but if you smear the back of a brake pad with grease then you'll be getting a false reading from these squeal shims.


you're definitely wrong on that one, because the squeal shims don't go anywhere near the actual pads, they stick out of the caliper, and move with the pads so the end of the U piece touches the disc and then is moved back and forth with friction to generate the high pitched squeal.

I've always put copper grease on pads, and I'm pretty sure I have some genuine workshop manuals which reccomend it. Copper grease is used exactly for its high temperature properties, and you wouldn't use it in pretty much any other circumstance. The brake pistons should not have copper grease put on their sides, as it can attack the rubber seals. You can use red rubber grease however.

I've never heard of brake squeal being used as any kind of indicator of brake wear, except for these U shaped shims, which are basically pre brake pad sensors. I've certainly never heard of that related to motorcycles.

I agree that most of what your friend on Youtube says sounds to be nonsense, but in this case I think he's right.

It's also worth pointing out that a lot of brake pads have a T shaped key piece which slots into a groove in the caliper. Since these surfaces move in relation to each other, they will need lubrication, and as such putting copper grease on the edges of the pad backs especially on keying surfaces is a good idea. I've definitely encountered seized brakes which are basically down to dirt on these surfaces, and lack of lubrication.

So, whilst I get your incredulity, there are perfectly valid reasons to put copper grease on the metal backs of the pads, but obviously care must be taken not to get any on the friction material itself.
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Baffler186
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Joined: 31 May 2013
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PostPosted: 15:22 - 29 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
I've always put a light smear of copper grease on the back of my pads. IME mine have often started to squeal 6 months or so after a caliper maintenance session. With everything cleaned, checked, re-assembled with fresh copper grease, they stop squealing until the next time. And I was doing that before I started to watch Dellboy.

I wouldn't really call that dangerous. If you put grease near or on the friction surface then you didn't ought to be doing your own maintenance anyway.
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Motorhate
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PostPosted: 15:33 - 29 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
MarJay wrote:
you're definitely wrong on that one, because the squeal shims don't go anywhere near the actual pads, they stick out of the calliper, and move with the pads so the end of the U piece touches the disc and then is moved back and forth with friction to generate the high pitched squeal.


Confusingly, the shims used to stop the rattle are called anti-squeal shims and they sit on the back of the brake pad. The springs you mention are clipped to the brake pads as per the below:

https://forum.ih8mud.com/attachments/dsc00948-jpg.510639/

Some brakes have a small metal part attached to the pad that acts as a wear indicator:

https://mikeduman.com/sites/default/files/blog_images/disc-pad.jpg

Quote:
I've always put copper grease on pads, and I'm pretty sure I have some genuine workshop manuals which recommend it.


As I said, these will most probably be old workshop manuals. I'd doubt any manufacturer would recommend smearing copper grease on the back of a brake pad nowadays.


Quote:
Copper grease is used exactly for its high temperature properties, and you wouldn't use it in pretty much any other circumstance.


Copper grease is widely used as an anti-sieze on bolts, in lieu of having not having any genuine anti-sieze.

Quote:
The brake pistons should not have copper grease put on their sides, as it can attack the rubber seals. You can use red rubber grease however.


Agreed, although I never inferred that they should have copper grease on the pistons.

[youtube]It's also worth pointing out that a lot of brake pads have a T shaped key piece which slots into a groove in the caliper. Since these surfaces move in relation to each other, they will need lubrication, and as such putting copper grease on the edges of the pad backs especially on keying surfaces is a good idea. I've definitely encountered seized brakes which are basically down to dirt on these surfaces, and lack of lubrication.[/quote]

I'd disagree with that, especially as grease will only attract road dirt and dust. I have no problem with the pins that the pads move on being greased, by the actual pads IMO shouldn't have any copper grease on them at all.

Quote:
So, whilst I get your incredulity, there are perfectly valid reasons to put copper grease on the metal backs of the pads, but obviously care must be taken not to get any on the friction material itself.


I really don't want to sound arsey and all self-righteous so I'll agree to disagree with you, mainly because quality brake pads usually have a lacquer already applied that will prevent the pots / pistons from sticking to the pads.
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Last edited by Motorhate on 15:45 - 29 Nov 2018; edited 1 time in total
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MarJay
But it's British!



Joined: 15 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: 15:44 - 29 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
I've replaced brake pads just recently that have no lacquer on them. Brand new EBC ones for my VFR and for my Street Triple R.

Also I've seen both squeal shims and anti squeal shims. I've also seen the squeal shims called 'wear indicators'. In my MX3 workshop manual, they were called 'Squeal shims'.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 15:46 - 29 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Brake Squeal is due to vibration resonating at a certain audible frequency.
Interrupting the vibration stops the noise.

Simple.

Brake dust/residue stuck to the disc can cause squeal too. Drilling out the dust and abraiding the disc surface will cure that.
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Motorhate
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PostPosted: 15:59 - 29 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
MarJay wrote:
I've replaced brake pads just recently that have no lacquer on them. Brand new EBC ones for my VFR and for my Street Triple R.


I'd wager that on them brakes that you've replaced, nowhere do EBC recommend using copper grease on the rear. I guarantee that if you put them in dry, they'll work just as well as they're treated so as the pot doesn't stick to the pad (a rare occurrence in normal circumstances anyway). The addition of any grease to the backs of the pads is only encouraging a build up of dirt and dust which has it's own problems in that area. It's worth asking yourself, how many times have you come across a piston stuck to the rear of a brake pad? Not a stuck piston, but a piston stuck to a brake pad.

Quote:
Also I've seen both squeal shims and anti squeal shims. I've also seen the squeal shims called 'wear indicators'. In my MX3 workshop manual, they were called 'Squeal shims'.


In all the instances on cars I've come across, they're all in some way, hooked up to the brake pad.

At the end of the day, if you want to put copper grease on the back of your brake pads, then be my guest. I'm merely stating why I (and almost all modern brake manufacturers) wouldn't recommend using copper grease anywhere on a brake pad.
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Baffler186
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PostPosted: 16:38 - 29 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Motorhate wrote:
how many times have you come across a piston stuck to the rear of a brake pad?
No times, but that's not what Dellboy is saying (and I'm agreeing with). It's to prevent anti-squeal. And also when I did a stint as a mechanic years ago, they all put generic anti-squeal grease on the back of car pads so it's not a totally "dangerous" thing to do.

Even if you think there's no point to it, that's fine. But you can't just say it's dangerous just because you don't agree with it. In fact, I've not heard Dellboy suggest anything dangerous, he just says "this is what I do". If someone puts grease on the front of pads then that's their mistake.
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rpsmith79
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PostPosted: 16:44 - 29 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Baffler186 wrote:

Even if you think there's no point to it, that's fine. But you can't just say it's dangerous just because you don't agree with it. In fact, I've not heard Dellboy suggest anything dangerous, he just says "this is what I do". If someone puts grease on the front of pads then that's their mistake.


But he clearly did not say that did he, he said, and i quote "as advised by EBC"

https://youtu.be/V3MDXUT8RtA?t=105
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M.C
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PostPosted: 16:46 - 29 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Motorhate wrote:
It's worth asking yourself, how many times have you come across a piston stuck to the rear of a brake pad? Not a stuck piston, but a piston stuck to a brake pad.

Define stuck. I've seen loads where the pads have been effectively welded with rust to the piston. Obviously they still come out but it's whether or not you think that's a good thing.
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Baffler186
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PostPosted: 17:04 - 29 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
rpsmith79 wrote:
Baffler186 wrote:

Even if you think there's no point to it, that's fine. But you can't just say it's dangerous just because you don't agree with it. In fact, I've not heard Dellboy suggest anything dangerous, he just says "this is what I do". If someone puts grease on the front of pads then that's their mistake.


But he clearly did not say that did he, he said, and i quote "as advised by EBC"

https://youtu.be/V3MDXUT8RtA?t=105
ok I stand corrected
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Motorhate
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PostPosted: 17:19 - 29 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
M.C wrote:

Define stuck. I've seen loads where the pads have been effectively welded with rust to the piston. Obviously they still come out but it's whether or not you think that's a good thing.


And were these pads on vehicles that were in regular use? If they'd been sat for months in damp conditions then I'd possibly understand it, but I'd wager these weren't on vehicles in regular use. Even so, that still wouldn't persuade me to smear copper grease on my brake pads.
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kerr
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PostPosted: 17:55 - 29 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Personally i'v never used copper grease on the back of pads, weither it be on cars, vans, motorbikes and i'v never had brakes squeal.
Isn't it a thing from back in the day when brakes were shite?
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Motorhate
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PostPosted: 18:01 - 29 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
kerr wrote:

Isn't it a thing from back in the day when brakes were shite?


Exactly. It's why none of the manufacturers recommend using it nowadays.
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Monkeywrenche...
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PostPosted: 18:04 - 29 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
M.C wrote:
Motorhate wrote:
It's worth asking yourself, how many times have you come across a piston stuck to the rear of a brake pad? Not a stuck piston, but a piston stuck to a brake pad.

Define stuck. I've seen loads where the pads have been effectively welded with rust to the piston. Obviously they still come out but it's whether or not you think that's a good thing.


Define loads, I've changed thousands of sets of pads and I can't remember ever not being able to get the pad away from the piston because it was rusted to it, greased or not.
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