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M.C
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PostPosted: 18:14 - 29 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Motorhate wrote:
And were these pads on vehicles that were in regular use? If they'd been sat for months in damp conditions then I'd possibly understand it, but I'd wager these weren't on vehicles in regular use. Even so, that still wouldn't persuade me to smear copper grease on my brake pads.

No idea, just random 'customer' cars that turned up.

Monkeywrencher wrote:
M.C wrote:

Define stuck. I've seen loads where the pads have been effectively welded with rust to the piston. Obviously they still come out but it's whether or not you think that's a good thing.


Define loads, I've changed thousands of sets of pads and I can't remember ever not being able to get the pad away from the piston because it was rusted to it, greased or not.
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Monkeywrenche...
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PostPosted: 18:19 - 29 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:

Monkeywrencher wrote:
M.C wrote:

Define stuck. I've seen loads where the pads have been effectively welded with rust to the piston. Obviously they still come out but it's whether or not you think that's a good thing.


Define loads, I've changed thousands of sets of pads and I can't remember ever not being able to get the pad away from the piston because it was rusted to it, greased or not.


I mean not stuck at all to the Piston...you said "effectively welded" never seen it..also some cars have springs which actually hold the pad to the piston and sometimes the caliper as well, so I don't think it's a bad thing hell, vauxhall puts glue on the pads to stck them there.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 18:23 - 29 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you've never seen a ring of rust around the piston/on the pad? Eh?
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Monkeywrenche...
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PostPosted: 18:26 - 29 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
So you've never seen a ring of rust around the piston/on the pad? Eh?


"Effectively welding" a pad to the piston, no never. Where a pad has rusted and the piston has protected the area beneath it, sure.

For that to happen though the pad would need to overheat enough to burn off the protective coating preventing it from rusting in the first place.
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Last edited by Monkeywrencher on 18:28 - 29 Nov 2018; edited 1 time in total
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Sister Sledge
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PostPosted: 18:26 - 29 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

kerr wrote:
Personally i'v never used copper grease on the back of pads, weither it be on cars, vans, motorbikes and i'v never had brakes squeal.
Isn't it a thing from back in the day when brakes were shite?


This.
If you look at how Delboy applies Copperslip he literally covers the whole of the back of the pad and with quite a lot of Copperslip - the pistons only touch on a small circle. He puts it on like you'd put butter on a bun. Delboy also makes completely false claims about lots of things and when spouting crap about brakes then it's potentially dangerous. Many people head to the internet for information like that and they could well believe his spoken word - his workshop looks professional so why doubt him??

When things heat up then grease will flow and seep around things - too much and it reaches the actual friction material.
Remember too that friction material is actually porous and will wick in any nearby lubricants.

Watch Matts video and he shows how more modern brakes utilise interesting shims that eliminate brake squeal as long as they're well maintained (clean and free moving). Those modern shims sometimes also have lots of holes through them and again it's to eliminate squeal and also help cool things down.

Finally - Matt. Sure he's funny but I do agree he's a right motormouth. Too many blue smarties or does he have a slight learning disability? It would explain why he can't let some things go.
If I met Matt I'd probably last 30 minutes. He just never shuts up!
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M.C
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PostPosted: 19:02 - 29 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkeywrencher wrote:
M.C wrote:
So you've never seen a ring of rust around the piston/on the pad? Eh?


"Effectively welding" a pad to the piston, no never. Where a pad has rusted and the piston has protected the area beneath it, sure.

For that to happen though the pad would need to overheat enough to burn off the protective coating preventing it from rusting in the first place.

Obviously that never happens:
https://www.exx.se/maintenance/brake_pad_disc_e87/1695.jpg

It sounds like now you're trying to describe the same thing I am? With less overall rust than above you can get a build-up, 2 or 3 mil' and it does indeed look like a rust weld, or bond if you prefer that term. I can't explain it anymore simply than that.
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notabikeranym...
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meef



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PostPosted: 19:14 - 29 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

If a brake pad is getting hot enough to weld to a fucking brake piston you have bigger issues with your brakes.

Copper slip is stupid on the backs of brake pads. It serves no measurable perfomance or longevity benefit and it's dangerous if it's not done "properly", I.e. more than just a smudge (which again, no fucking benefit).

Have you seen how quickly copper slip becomes a runny mess when it's heated up to hot brake temps? There's a real risk of that shit leaking around and onto your brakepads depending how high up you put it, and even more likely to get onto a brake rotor.

I don't know why Yamaha slathered the crap on the back of my old pads when they serviced my bike back when I had the R6, but it's not advised by Yamaha anywhere in their service manual and it's not advised by EBC who supply the brakepads.

If manufacturers of brake pads and calipers are advising AGAINST using copper slip and state themselves that there is no measurable performance benefit to cooling/performance, and there are no repeated studies that have proven that it causes your pads to last longer or operate better then what the fuck is the point in doing something so pointless? force of habit?

Seems like an old word-of-mouth myth/bad habit that's been carried down through generations of self taught mechanics. No engineer or brake specialist seems to have openly agreed with or argued that it gives any tangible difference and until then I won't be sticking that shit anywhere near my brakes.

Copper grease probably helps slow rusting at best, but if your brakes are rusting to fuck maybe clean the cunts out once in a while instead of using a risky method to cover up the problem.


Last edited by notabikeranymore on 17:25 - 01 Dec 2018; edited 1 time in total
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talkToTheHat
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PostPosted: 00:41 - 30 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Motorhate wrote:
talkToTheHat wrote:
I think it's a bit harsh to have a go at dellboy for accepted practices* ? It's still done by Doncaster Motorcycles' Kev and Neil who frequently appear in (is it their own column or are they just media whores?) MCN's workshop warstories. And yes they're my local competent and freindly mechanics and I live in fear of finding my bike in MCN...


Do they actually use it on the back of the pad or on the pins?



Didn't watch them do my bandit, but will investigate. The pins defintely have copperslip on. I've not dared or needed to poke at my brakes since the bent carrier issue, so don't know exactly what they did there.

On my XV535 with its 80s spec single piston caliper and blue brembo (ceramic) pads? That needed some of the runs in the blue lacquer grinding off, and had copper grease on the backs of the bads and sliding surfaces. I was told in no uncertain terms to use as little as i thought i could get away with and then less still.

HOWEVER, ceramic and organic pads don't conduct heat any way near as well as metallic sintered pads, so procedures may well be different. Note that calipers designed for use with semi-metallic pads tend to have more cooling oriented features, I note the Tokico twin pots on my GSF600 have what appear to be cooling fins, although these are more of a styling tweak on the structural design than an efficient cooling design.
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talkToTheHat
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PostPosted: 02:24 - 30 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

The EBC email from the video:

https://cdn.bcf.44bytes.net/files/screenshot_2018-11-30_01.18.51.png

I would be inclined to agree with this advice of "very little, where it slides" and will look into ceramic paste over my tin of copper grease for brake use.
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Monkeywrenche...
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PostPosted: 09:41 - 30 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:

Obviously that never happens:
https://www.exx.se/maintenance/brake_pad_disc_e87/1695.jpg

It sounds like now you're trying to describe the same thing I am? With less overall rust than above you can get a build-up, 2 or 3 mil' and it does indeed look like a rust weld, or bond if you prefer that term. I can't explain it anymore simply than that.


That Pad was not "effectively welded with rust to the piston" and to expand on what I was getting at, even if it was lack of movement btewwn the pad and piston is not detrimental to braking performance and some applications even take steps to ensure there is none so it's not an argument for applying copperslip to the back of a pad.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 16:07 - 30 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
Monkeywrencher wrote:
For that to happen though the pad would need to overheat enough to burn off the protective coating preventing it from rusting in the first place.

Obviously that never happens:
https://www.exx.se/maintenance/brake_pad_disc_e87/1695.jpg

^ There as you seem to be struggling in following the conversation.

I don't care anymore, you obviously think components rusting together is a good thing. I worked with a guy who didn't use grease on headset bearings, he was adamant you didn't need any...
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 17:57 - 30 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I fitted new brake pads to the wifes CB500 the other day. Squealed like hell. Put a smear of copper grease on the back of the pads, stopped squealing.

The squealing was being caused by vibration/rubbing between the piston and the back of the pad at a particular resonance, the grease reduced the friction and stopped the squeal. Copper grease used because the grease part will burn off to nothing after a short while. The copper retains some lubricating properties without spreading.

I find pistons with open ends are particularly bad for this type of squeal.
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Monkeywrenche...
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PostPosted: 18:32 - 30 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:

I don't care anymore, you obviously think components rusting together is a good thing. I worked with a guy who didn't use grease on headset bearings, he was adamant you didn't need any...


Well obviously as I don't think Putting grease on a Brake pad is necessary it follows that all lubrication is redundant. Rolling Eyes Those components didn't rust together they may both be rusted but they weren't siezed together by the rusting, if they were it would prevent squeal and have no detrimental effect on brake performance.

putting copper slip between the pad and piston will stop a squeal, but it can also be stopped other ways, you just need to find out whats causing the resonation, probably the disc surface if the pads are new or glazed pads if they're old. Putting copper grease there as a matter of course is unnecessary. if it was you'd be able to find a brake pad manufacturer or Car manufacturer who advises so in their instructions/service manual. As I said before decent Car brake pads have something on the back anyway to prevent squeal or shims are involved.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 19:38 - 30 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkeywrencher wrote:
Well obviously as I don't think Putting grease on a Brake pad is necessary it follows that all lubrication is redundant. Rolling Eyes

It was an example of how anyone can convince themself of a 'good' working practice. Generally you do whatever the place you're working at do, otherwise it ends up a real shitshow.

Monkeywrencher wrote:
putting copper slip between the pad and piston will stop a squeal, but it can also be stopped other ways, you just need to find out whats causing the resonation, probably the disc surface if the pads are new or glazed pads if they're old. Putting copper grease there as a matter of course is unnecessary.

As I said on the last page, thanks for that insight Rolling Eyes

Anyway I am really fucking bored of this now.
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Monkeywrenche...
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PostPosted: 10:29 - 01 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:

As I said on the last page, thanks for that insight Rolling Eyes

Anyway I am really fucking bored of this now.


Agreed,No need to get snippy.

I think we're arguing different points and getting nowhere re the rusting.

But what you said about working practices cuts to the base of the Grease situation. copperslip is still being slathered on brakes because it's handed down in workshops as good practice "the way I've always done it" but technologies move on and brake systems should be treated with the best available products which is currently Ceramic Brake grease, it's better suited technically to the application and shouldbe used in place of copperslip which wasn't developed for the use.

Putting it on the pad back is a good low cost way of silencing a squeal and My guys do it when the Need arises, although I always ask the customer which remedy they prefer and give them the cost/benefit. alot of the time the "right" answer will be grease the pad, put in new discs with the next set of pads. But new pads don't get greased as a matter of course, as that is not the currnet best practice according to manufacturers of cars and brake components.

TLDR; Buy some Ceramic grease use it sparingly
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Old Thread Alert!

The last post was made 5 years, 120 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
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