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What sort of Brexit do you want?

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What type of Brexit do you want?
No Deal, properly leave.
66%
 66%  [ 41 ]
May's Leave in name only deal.
1%
 1%  [ 1 ]
Let the EU and establishment keep us in the EU
25%
 25%  [ 16 ]
Other. (Specify)
6%
 6%  [ 4 ]
Total Votes : 62

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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 01:08 - 15 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Jewlio Rides Again LLB wrote:
mpd72 wrote:

It's at the top of the page pal. I know you won't accept it because it doesn't agree with your infallible agenda and proves you wrong, but I seriously doubt this forum is that far from the public as a whole, that Remoan claims of 15% wanting no deal Brexit are actually 75%.

All the other polls on here regarding Brexit were almost spot on with how the vote went, so why does this one not hold water with you?

I wonder... Rolling Eyes


Which Party?
Conservative Party
41%
41% [ 42 ]
Labour Party
27%
27% [ 28 ]
Liberal Democrats
9%
9% [ 10 ]
UK Independence Party
11%
11% [ 12 ]
Green Party
3%
3% [ 4 ]
Scottish National Party
0%
0% [ 1 ]
Social Democratic and Labour Party
0%
0% [ 0 ]
Co-operative Party
0%
0% [ 1 ]
Democratic Unionist Party
1%
1% [ 2 ]
Plaid Cymru
1%
1% [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 102


My post above, pointing out that yet again you are wrong, is redundant? Keep me on ignore like a good little snowflake, instead of unblocking to neg, you little peeping Tom.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 01:54 - 15 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Riejufixing wrote:
It seems that one idea they're discussing is to do with specifying a trade agreement start date, or some committment to attaining an agreement and start date, which is a very interesting sidestep vis-à-vis a "backstop" end date, and which would presumably form part of the Political Decleration which accompanies the negotiated interim agreement.

Most of the arguments for the last two years on here have been about how long trade deals take Smile I don't think the EU have any notion of reaching a trade deal within the given timeframe, backed up by repeated references to the transition period being extended.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 14:06 - 15 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
M.C wrote:
Riejufixing wrote:
It seems that one idea they're discussing is to do with specifying a trade agreement start date, or some committment to attaining an agreement and start date, which is a very interesting sidestep vis-à-vis a "backstop" end date, and which would presumably form part of the Political Decleration which accompanies the negotiated interim agreement.

Most of the arguments for the last two years on here have been about how long trade deals take Smile I don't think the EU have any notion of reaching a trade deal within the given timeframe, backed up by repeated references to the transition period being extended.


Remember all the stupid hysteria about the draft of the interim agreement document?

All that "OMG it's awful we could be kept in to 2099 because it says year 20XX in the document AND Barnier said '20XX' weep cry rage"[1]?

Well, in the actual document it turned into guess what? "...extended once, for a maximum of one or two years".

Bear in mind, again, that Remainers hate the idea of any deal, because they will be turned into "rejoiners", and THAT makes it far, far harder for them. So they slag off "the deal", the PM, Cabinet and government, and their slagging off is very eagerly swallowed by gillible Leavers[1].

EDIT: [1] Yep, green ink man again:

https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=4595414

mpd72 wrote:
There are some crackers in the draft statement, which people are now spotting in the small print, including this gem..

(“Notwithstanding Article 126, the Joint Committee may, before 1 July 2020, adopt a single decision extending the transition period up to [31 December 20XX].”)

Yes, that really could mean up until 2099.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 14:14 - 15 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Riejufixing wrote:
and their slagging off is very eagerly swallowed by gullible Leavers.


FTFY?
And I think that is an unfair generalisation, or worse, a misjudgement.

I'll ask you again: Do you agree that this draft agreement leaves the potential for the EU to make life very difficult for us if they so chose?

And following on from that, why would you trust them not to? Ok, I've heard you say it is not in their interests. So why have the backstop in the first place? Why have a veto over the UK's implementation of trade agreements in the document? Why have any possibility of extending the draft agreement at all? Where does the trust come from? What precedent can you point to for all this?
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 00:30 - 16 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:
Riejufixing wrote:
and their slagging off is very eagerly swallowed by gullible Leavers.


FTFY?
And I think that is an unfair generalisation, or worse, a misjudgement.

I'll ask you again: Do you agree that this draft agreement leaves the potential for the EU to make life very difficult for us if they so chose?

And following on from that, why would you trust them not to? Ok, I've heard you say it is not in their interests. So why have the backstop in the first place? Why have a veto over the UK's implementation of trade agreements in the document? Why have any possibility of extending the draft agreement at all? Where does the trust come from? What precedent can you point to for all this?


You might think it's an unfair generalisation, but all I've heard you say is about the same as the now-plonked green-ink man. You do not seem to want to comprehend anything, or to be able or willing to do your own research, or say that you can do anything bar complain. Correct me if my impression is a wrong one. I'm not trying to be rude to you but I am exceedingly pissed off in general with the misinformation there is going around.

To answer your question - which I do not think you have asked before, but if you have you could point out where - yes, there is potential for them to make life difficult for us, BUT there are aalso legal safeguards against them doing that thing. By the way, it is NOT a "draft agreement". It was agreed between the Cabinet and the EC nearly THREE WEEKS ago (Nov 25th).

"why would you trust them not to? Ok, I've heard you say it is not in their interests"? Well, there are legal safeguards in the form of the proposed treaty. Ultimately, if they break the treaty, it ceases to apply.

"Why have a veto over the UK's implementation of trade agreements in the document?"

What?? They DO NOT have a veto over our implementation of trade agreements. In SOME cases (where there is an "EU competence), we would have to implement our trade deals AFTER the transition period, but not in all cases.

Say that there is country A that the EU has a trade agreement with. What would happen, legally, if WE, already having a trade agreement with A, because we were still in the interim period, implemented a completely separate agreement with A? There would be two agreements simultaneously and both at the same time. It's unworkable. So, our implementation of our trade agreement with A would come after the implementation period.

Now say that there's country B, which has no trade agreement with the EU. We could, immediately after March 29th., implement a trade agreement with B, because it would not clash with the EU's one, as the EU does not have one.

There is nothing in the withdrawal agreement to stop us making an agreement with A during the interim period, and implementing it immediately after the implementation period.

"Why have any possibility of extending the draft agreement at all?"

Because we want a trade agreement AND NOT the bloody backstop!!!!!! Again, it's NOT a "draft agreement". It's been accepted by the Cabinet and the EC, but needs to be accepted by our parliament, and the governments of EU countries.


"Where does the trust come from?" As before, it's in the treaty! BOTH parties are legally bound by that. If THEY break the treaty, general world approbrium will descend on THEIR heads, and the treaty will cease to apply.

Lastly, "What precedent can you point to for all this?"; there isn't one. However, general legal principles are well established.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 01:24 - 16 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ok, in your opinion, if we go with this agreement, what is the worst thing that could happen for the UK on the basis of it?
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Ste
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PostPosted: 02:25 - 16 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:
what is the worst thing that could happen for the UK on the basis of it?

Corbyn.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 15:56 - 16 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Unless he's said something new in the last interview I saw he seemed to be talking about a no deal brexit, but was clearly anti any brexit. It makes sense with him being a (successful) businessman and wanting to keep the status quo.

None of these high profile endorsements are working for me anyway, show me a working class scumbag, then tell me exactly how they'll be worse off and I might listen.

On a side note can we go back to one Brexit thread? This is getting even harder to follow Smile
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M.C
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PostPosted: 18:02 - 16 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
It sounds like the same one: "A hard Brexit would be more damaging to Great Britain than almost the Second World War". I took that as a no deal brexit as apposed to May's Brexit, but as I said his anti-brexit stance was clear.
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Diggs
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PostPosted: 18:10 - 16 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
A working class scumbag will be worse off if the economy dips (as it is widely predicted to do even by brexiteers), because tax revenue will dip also and said scumbag will experience less spend on education, police, armed forces, roads, pensions, NHS etc etc etc. This means that the cost of his fags and lager will rise to compensate.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 20:45 - 16 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Diggs wrote:
less spend on education, police, armed forces, roads, pensions, NHS

Sounds like a Tory government Thinking
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 20:51 - 16 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Diggs wrote:
A working class scumbag will be worse off if the economy dips (as it is widely predicted to do even by brexiteers), because tax revenue will dip also and said scumbag will experience less spend on education, police, armed forces, roads, pensions, NHS etc etc etc. This means that the cost of his fags and lager will rise to compensate.


And that is why the referendum was a very irresponsible mistake, that will fill up the Politics textbooks all over the world. None, or next to none, of those people knew or even realise the consequences of their choice. Not to even mention how easy it is to influence/change the public opinion, in the era of the internet/social media. There is a reason why political agitation in the polling place is illegal in pretty much every single democracy on this planet.

Brexit is a very complicated matter, that should have been decided by well educated people. Yes, mpd72, you are very educated when it comes to the EU, politics and economy. Isn't making educated decision why we have representative democracy? I mean, ask ordinary people what would they change and they would most likely lower the taxes and then whatever a certain group of people wants (for instance, higher benefits for unemployed; roads for free for motorists; public transport for free for non-motorists... and so on).

I do not question the democracy of the Brexit. I do question all those people who voted for leave the EU to only bitch about it the very next day on facetube. If they were responsible voters, they would at least listen to what the both sides had to say/offer. The red bus with £350 m written on it probably moved towards Brexit more people, than the actual issues the UK had/has with the EU.

Being a lawyer, I don't do uninformed/uneducated decisions. That's also why I do not vote, as I don't have the time, nor interest in studying politics.

To get back to what Diggs says. Yes, that is exactly what is going to happen and always happens. What's even sadder, these people often work in international companies, that only have their factories in the country because it was beneficial to them. So, once the UK (any EU country) leaves, I would not be surprised if those said companies would move their factories elsewhere in the EU, which for those people means unemployment and for the gov. a burden.
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Sload
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PostPosted: 21:00 - 16 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
RhynoCZ wrote:
Interesting POV

Don't get sucked in Laughing
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 21:11 - 16 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sload wrote:
RhynoCZ wrote:
Interesting POV

Don't get sucked in Laughing


It is rather simple, just think about it. When you need a surgery, do you ask your neighbor Steve the car mechanic, or you seek a medical professional with all the necessary qualification required to safely undertake such procedure? That £350m bus is/was your mate Steve.
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Val
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PostPosted: 00:05 - 17 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
RhynoCZ wrote:


1. And that is why the referendum was a very irresponsible mistake, that will fill up the Politics textbooks all over the world. None, or next to none, of those people knew or even realise the consequences of their choice.

2. I do not question the democracy of the Brexit.


3. Being a lawyer, I don't do uninformed/uneducated decisions.


Being a mathematician I see logical contradiction in what you have said above Rhyno.

If 1 and 3 are true surely that is exactly the reasons to question democracy and validity of Brexit? Democracy can't be based on lies and fantasies.

BTW exactly your points 1 and 3 are the resons why Swiss disregarded their referendum on FoM.

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/take-it-from-the-swiss-the-brexit-referendum-wasnt-legitimate

https://t.co/9Hq4aZdh6o
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 00:14 - 17 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Val wrote:
RhynoCZ wrote:


1. And that is why the referendum was a very irresponsible mistake, that will fill up the Politics textbooks all over the world. None, or next to none, of those people knew or even realise the consequences of their choice.

2. I do not question the democracy of the Brexit.


3. Being a lawyer, I don't do uninformed/uneducated decisions.


Being a mathematician I see logical contradiction in what you have said above Rhyno.

If 1 and 3 are true surely that is exactly the reasons to question democracy and validity of Brexit? Democracy can't be based on lies and fantasies.

BTW exactly your points 1 and 3 are the resons why Swiss disregarded their referendum on FoM.

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/take-it-from-the-swiss-the-brexit-referendum-wasnt-legitimate

https://t.co/9Hq4aZdh6o


Being the guy who cleans your office I know you are talking BS.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 00:50 - 17 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Val wrote:
RhynoCZ wrote:


1. And that is why the referendum was a very irresponsible mistake, that will fill up the Politics textbooks all over the world. None, or next to none, of those people knew or even realise the consequences of their choice.

2. I do not question the democracy of the Brexit.


3. Being a lawyer, I don't do uninformed/uneducated decisions.


Being a mathematician I see logical contradiction in what you have said above Rhyno.

If 1 and 3 are true surely that is exactly the reasons to question democracy and validity of Brexit? Democracy can't be based on lies and fantasies.

BTW exactly your points 1 and 3 are the resons why Swiss disregarded their referendum on FoM.

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/take-it-from-the-swiss-the-brexit-referendum-wasnt-legitimate

https://t.co/9Hq4aZdh6o


How similar do you think the Swiss and the UK law systems are, that you assume, that whatever goes in Switzerland should as well go in the UK? That is a serious question.

We do know far too well, that the Brexit referendum was not legally binding. However, the democratically elected UK gov. decided to go with it.

Was Cameron stupid to even suggest the referendum? Yes, he was, very stupid, a publicity stunt gone wrong. Did many people vote leave because of ''Steve''? Maybe. Was the referendum an expression of direct democracy? Yes, it was.

TL; DR: UK is leaving, people have spoken, the gov. has decided. Also, your Swiss article is not applicable here at all. 6 referendums to decide what the maternity leave should look like is hardly comparable with a country leaving the EU after years of integration and cooperation. Having 6 Brexit referendums would lead to incredible legal and economical uncertainty and would render UK unworthy of any major investments from abroad. Investing in such country would pure gambling.
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Last edited by RhynoCZ on 00:51 - 17 Dec 2018; edited 1 time in total
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M.C
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PostPosted: 00:51 - 17 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
RhynoCZ wrote:
And that is why the referendum was a very irresponsible mistake, that will fill up the Politics textbooks all over the world. None, or next to none, of those people knew or even realise the consequences of their choice. Not to even mention how easy it is to influence/change the public opinion, in the era of the internet/social media. There is a reason why political agitation in the polling place is illegal in pretty much every single democracy on this planet.

It was a mistake for Cameron, for UKIP and Tory brexiteers it was what they had been campaigning for (for decades). Only one side sent a leaflet to every house in the UK (thinking that was job done), then realising they'd underestimated public feeling extended voter registration and launched a social media campaign... but still that bus Rolling Eyes

RhynoCZ wrote:
I do not question the democracy of the Brexit. I do question all those people who voted for leave the EU to only bitch about it the very next day on facetube. If they were responsible voters, they would at least listen to what the both sides had to say/offer. The red bus with £350 m written on it probably moved towards Brexit more people, than the actual issues the UK had/has with the EU.

The bus wasn't a big issue at the time Rolling Eyes It became a big issue afterwards when people where looking for any excuse to nullify a referendum result. For the last sodding time, most people had their mind made up way before the referendum. I said to myself years ago I would only register to vote if we had a referendum (already knowing how I'd vote), but yeah I was swayed buy a bus Rolling Eyes
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 00:56 - 17 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
M.C wrote:
The bus wasn't a big issue at the time Rolling Eyes It became a big issue afterwards when people where looking for any excuse to nullify a referendum result. For the last sodding time, most people had their mind made up way before the referendum. I said to myself years ago I would only register to vote if we had a referendum (already knowing how I'd vote), but yeah I was swayed but a bus Rolling Eyes


The bus was only an example.

You say you've always wanted to leave, well the statistics show that before Cameron had his publicity stunt only 6% of people wasn't happy with the EU. Sure, this could be a fake number, why not, but it is very plausible. People only get pissed about something, if there's someone shouting loud enough about what they're supposed to be pissed about.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 01:10 - 17 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
RhynoCZ wrote:
The bus was only an example.

...
RhynoCZ wrote:
The red bus with £350 m written on it probably moved towards Brexit more people, than the actual issues the UK had/has with the EU.

That's more moronic than anything Val has come up with. To re-iterate there has been years of anti-eu feeling, growing all the time, had Cameron not called the referendum it would have continued to grow.

RhynoCZ wrote:
You say you've always wanted to leave, well the statistics show that before Cameron had his publicity stunt only 6% of people wasn't happy with the EU. Sure, this could be a fake number, why not, but it is very plausible. People only get pissed about something, if there's someone shouting loud enough about what they're supposed to be pissed about.

Is this that graph you posted the other day when people were asked about their main concern?

I do like how you're not in the UK and feel you have a better read of public opinion Neutral
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