A break from Brexit - roundabouts

[Hawkeye1250FA]

So... Question to the masses. I have my opinion on this but am unsure if it is the correct one.

Highway code says two things, give way to the right. And give way to traffic already on the roundabout.

The situation is as follows, you have clear road ahead upto the roundabout and past it, there is a queue of traffic formed left to right trying to go straight across in front of you.

You are not on the roundabout, but are approaching it at a sensible speed (let's say 20 for arguments sake but it's a 30 limit). The cars waiting can see you clearly.

Here's the thing, you are not at the roundabout but will be impeded if the first car pulls out from a standstill, by the time you get to the roundabout entrance they have entered the roundabout, should they have waited knowing that you would get to them before they were gone? Or should you give way to them because they were already on the roundabout (by 6")


Tl:dr blasting along over a clear roundabout - car pulls out. Who gives way?
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1993 RF400R - 2002 Bandit 1200 - 2012 1250 FA

[Ste]

Needs more paint diagram.

[Hawkeye1250FA]

Paint diagram is at 00:00

Assume at point 00:03 the car has moved forwards across the line by 6" and the bike is now at the line about to cross it (but at 20mph)
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1993 RF400R - 2002 Bandit 1200 - 2012 1250 FA

[B5234FT]

They should give way to the right, so if they cannot pull out without impeding you then they shouldnt do/have done so.

That said, if you extend the logic to you approaching at 120mph then they would never be able to pull out as they most likely cant see far enough to anticipate, so an element of caution is required by both parties.

[talkToTheHat]

This very much depends on how big the roundabout is. What should happen is the car gives way to you, but be aware that they might not. But as soon as they are on the roundabout, they have the right of way.
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Bandit. does. everything.

[Hawkeye1250FA]

[Hawkeye1250FA]

[B5234FT]

There is a difference between "on the roundabout" and "almost stationary, wheels 6" over the line, accelerating just enough to be right in the way"

If he had pulled out earlier, before he could see you, and was going more slowly, then of course you should slow down behind him, but to me, nipping out in front of traffic and relying on them to avoid you contravenes "give way to the right"

The bit that changes with roundabout size is the distance at which observations are made and therefore the speed vehicles can safely approach at to allow time for that to happen. It may be acceptable to join an NSL roundabout at 20, but a mini roundabout with any traffic demands everyone is almost stationary.

[Hawkeye1250FA]

[B5234FT]

I'd personally say you were taking the piss a bit approaching a mini roundabout at 20mph when there is stationary traffic waiting to cross, you're expecting him to anticipate your speed and distance a long way from that roundabout.

(Imagine for example approaching an NSL roundabout at 50...)

[Hawkeye1250FA]

[Ste]

Poor obs by both parties, 50:50 liability.

Car shouldn't be at a stand still and then pull out just in time to get in the way of the only other vehicle in sight and the bike shouldn't proceed blindly in the hope that their right of way will save them from injury.

[Hawkeye1250FA]

[Ste]

Mmmmmmmmm. If they can fall off, slide along the road and not hit the car then they also wouldn't have hit the car if they'd braked without then sliding along the road.

If I were the car driver then there would need to be a very convincing argument for why I should accept responsible for the biker being unable to do an emergency stop.

I'm sure there have been examples cited where someone has crashed whilst taking evasive action and it's been ruled as being at least partially the fault of whoever they were trying to avoid even though there was no contact between the vehicle.

Therefore what you describe is going in favour of the car driver, maybe not 100% but something in the region of 80:20.

Is this situation as hypothetical as my legal knowledge?

[stinkwheel]

Not all that relevant at the end of the day anyway. Lying in the road with a broken leg will not hurt any less if you had right of way.

So if the car is coming, you need to anticipate that and give way to it, even if you weren't supposed to.

I would be tempted to sound my horn to alert him to my presence.
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“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[M.C]

[Diggs]

I would slow sufficiently as I approached the roundabout for me to be able to react to the driver, if he sets off. Surely it is all about anticipation - if you see a potential 'situation' ahead, you slow down just in case.

This is a common scenario where I live, particularly with mini-roundabouts...
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[Hawkeye1250FA]

All sums it up nicely 👍 thanks for your input.

Yes it's completely theoretical, the situation happens a lot in Holmes Chapel where there are 2 mini roundabouts together.

It irks me somewhat (rarely a day goes by I don't have to honk to alert them - yes I am here, stop please) that some drivers can't judge speed and anticipate as well as others so I end up braking and allowing for their inevitable pull outs.

Thems the breaks innit.
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1993 RF400R - 2002 Bandit 1200 - 2012 1250 FA

[Pigeon]

Agree to ride assuming the worst and not be angry when it does happen, but be in 1 piece to carry on.


But code does say "give priority to traffic approaching from your right, "

and "watch out for all other road users already on the roundabout"


North, South, East, West.
The one I watch out for is the person sat West, indicating right as you approach from the South.

They should "give priority" to you, but gun it onto the roundabout and swing sharp all the way round. Now your screwed, as they are on your right and expecting you to avoid the collision.

Only really valid for small roundabouts. But there is one near us and I swear people do it at SPEED just so they can bang the horn. They look for the i-am-right fight (not targeting bikes, they look for anyone).

[Arfa__]

[MarJay]

[Hawkeye1250FA]

SSDD innit.

Part and parcel of riding is that we need to make up for other drivers inadequacies.

How does the adage go? There are old bikers, and there are bold bikers. But there are no old bold bikers. Some shit like that anyway. 🤣

My favourite quote from an instructor:

Instructor ; "what does it mean when a cars right indicator is flashing?"
Student : "the car is turning right"
Instructor : "Nope, the bulb is working"
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1993 RF400R - 2002 Bandit 1200 - 2012 1250 FA

[M.C]

[stinkwheel]

[Hong Kong Phooey]

Who gives way?

Well judging that 80% of dashcam videos are at roundabouts, it seems not many people know how they're supposed to behave. Lane discipline goes out of the window, and overtaking then diving off without indicating is to be anticipated.

If you are stopped, and a vehicle enters at a speed that means pulling out impedes their progress, then you're in the wrong, if the approaching vehicle is doing 60mph then you'd both be responsible.

It's akin to pulling out into a one-way system into traffic, you pull out when clear but don't rear end or cut anyone up, just because the road is layed out in a circle shouldn't make much difference.

If the driver has already started their manoeuvre out onto the roundabout, and you're flying out behind them from the right, then you should proceed with caution as poor obs has already been indicated, possibly by both parties.

If both pulling the trigger at the same time, then you give way to traffic already on the roundabout and go behind. No stress as you'll be past the pillock sooner or later.

If he's dilly-dallying and you're on approach from the right then you get to go, until he decides to pull out and then physics/insurance/legal takes care of the rest.

Needs dashcam video posting along with verbal exchanges
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'81 CG125, '97 FZS600 : '99 CBR600F4, '09 KTM RC8