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Daytona Sprinter 50cc DIM HEADLIGHT

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Tankie
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PostPosted: 19:42 - 14 Feb 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

What are the capacitors for? to act as a battery , or just a buffer
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Elektroniker
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PostPosted: 20:25 - 14 Feb 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tankie wrote:
What are the capacitors for? to act as a battery , or just a buffer

The output from the single-phase magneto is AC. Approximately a sine wave, such as you'd get from a basic mains transformer, except that its frequency changes with rpm. (Also the voltage increases with rpm.)
The 13.8v regulator requires a fairly smooth DC input so, to achieve that, I used a bridge rectifier followed by the two 4700µF reservoir capacitors (connected in parallel to make approx. 10,000 µF).

See a good explanation here:
https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/analogue_circuits/power-supply-electronics/capacitor-smoothing-circuits.php

The reason for using the specific 13.8v regulator is that it works from 9v to 36v input, meaning that the battery is still charging at low rpm. Almost down to tickover speed, in fact.

Unfortunately, I miscalculated. The capacitors that I used were rated at only 25 vDC and also their ripple current rating was only around 1 Amp. As a result, they worked fine for about 5 minutes then overheated and exploded! That wouldn't have mattered so much but it meant that the regulator was now being fed full-wave rectified AC, which it didn't like, so it failed.

So, I have new capacitors and regulator on order (up to 7 weeks from China) so the bike is running with the old regulator once more.

I've realised that bike manufacturers save money by NOT using a proper regulator system. Instead, they use just the bridge rectifier with maybe some component to limit the peak voltage to protect the battery. In my case this latter item seems to have failed and the battery is seeing up to 15.5 volts, which will kill it fairly quickly.

So I'm toying with the idea of making my own version of this system, which doesn't require expensive, unreliable reservoir capacitors. The regulation won't be as good but I can live with that. Something like this:
https://www.circuitstoday.com/10a-adjustable-voltage-regulator
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Tankie
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PostPosted: 09:02 - 15 Feb 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your thinking far too hard, this is the item you need

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ROYAL-ENFIELD-BULLET-4-PIN-12v-VOLT-AC-REGULATOR-RECTIFIER-112242-SWISS-790/222106244557?hash=item33b69055cd:g:EwcAAOSwiYFXKKpE:rk:2:pf:0
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Elektroniker
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PostPosted: 22:44 - 15 Feb 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tankie wrote:
Your thinking far too hard,


My thinking far too hard?

Tankie wrote:
this is the item you need

ROYAL-ENFIELD-BULLET-4-PIN-12v-VOLT-AC-REGULATOR-RECTIFIER


Thanks. I'm not sure what that is or what it does or how to connect it. My battery needs 13.8 volts DC to charge it (or the equivalent rectified AC).

I've ordered this to try:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/323653962833

I'm a little concerned that it states "12 volts DC" as that won't charge the battery but I'm hoping that it will be suitable and will work better than the old "regulator" that came with the bike.

If it works really well, I won't bother with my design using capacitors.

I'll report back.
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WD Forte
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Joined: 17 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: 00:04 - 16 Feb 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

12v is just a nominal value.
Bikes/cars etc have an actual working voltage closer to 14V

Both of those above would work and be set to regulate at around 13.8V DC
They're basically bridge rectifers with a voltage controlled shunt to ground to prevent over voltage
larger bike rectifier regulators work the same way except they use
3 phase stators and rectifiers
( unless they have exterior alternators)
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Elektroniker
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PostPosted: 10:38 - 16 Feb 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

WD Forte wrote:
Both of those above would work and be set to regulate at around 13.8V DC
They're basically bridge rectifers with a voltage controlled shunt to ground to prevent over voltage.

Thanks. Is that voltage shunt integral in all similar regulators or is it sometimes a separate unit?

(Wherever it is, it's not working on my bike as I see the battery voltage sometimes as high as 15.5 volts.)
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WD Forte
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PostPosted: 19:31 - 16 Feb 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Elektroniker wrote:
WD Forte wrote:
Both of those above would work and be set to regulate at around 13.8V DC
They're basically bridge rectifers with a voltage controlled shunt to ground to prevent over voltage.

Thanks. Is that voltage shunt integral in all similar regulators or is it sometimes a separate unit?

(Wherever it is, it's not working on my bike as I see the battery voltage sometimes as high as 15.5 volts.)


The shunt is internal on most bike RRs hence the finned case
to dissipate heat when dumping excess power
Some get a reference voltage internally but some use an external 'sense' line to compensate for voltage drop in the cables.
If the external sense cables connections are poor, the voltage on it can 'float' and this will drive the RR output high.
Also poor grounding and ground line commoning can have a similar effect.
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Tankie
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PostPosted: 19:44 - 16 Feb 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

This man know what he is talking about, the theory is called " applied electronics"
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Elektroniker
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PostPosted: 20:38 - 16 Feb 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, WD Forte.

Do you know of an internal circuit diagram for one of these bridge rectifier/shunt "regulators"?

For the shunt to work, I'd guess there's a low value, high wattage resistor to drop the voltage (and avoid overloading the magneto coil), right?
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WD Forte
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PostPosted: 22:56 - 16 Feb 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Internal circuitry will depend on many things but whatever the bike
It will still have two main functions
1 Rectify ( AC to DC)
2 Regulate output voltage

older ones were crude but effective and were little more than rectifier diode/s and a zener
in a heat sink which was bolted to the frame.
Some later ones mixed and matched by using AC for the headlamp and DC for other circuits.

Most RRs still use silicon rectifer diodes but have extra components in a feedback control loop
with a zener for a reference voltage and transistors switched on and of to do the heavy lifting re regulation.
Some may have an SCR linked to one phase to momentarly short that phases power to ground when the output voltage exceeds the
reference voltage.

Some modern RRs use mosfets in a more complex 'zero switching' circuit to switch the AC on and off
which is more efficient than the common linear types.

Last year I fixed up an old moped for a guy and played around with its basic unregulated AC system to get a a more consistent
output so I could fit led lamps to it as although as was nominally a 6V system, he said it even blew the 12v bulbs he put in.
It's still working BTW

https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=324407
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Elektroniker
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PostPosted: 20:38 - 22 Feb 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your comments. Smile
The "universal" regulator arrived today. I removed the plug, which didn't suit my connections, and crimped 1/4" spade (male Lucar) connectors onto the four wires. It works fine and even charges the battery when the lights are on. However, the voltage still goes above 15 volts so I need to do something about that. Maybe a low value resistor and a thumping big zener, both on a heatsink?

Another problem has arisen. Please refer to the carburettor photo near the bottom of this page:
https://www.DuckPoo.com/daytona/
We had a week of rain, after which the bike wouldn't start. I traced the problem to a float chamber full of water! I'm not sure how it got there but, as you can see in the photo, the air filter is a basic wire mesh device, which is immediately behind the front wheel. I suspect that the plastic faring above it fills with water spray every time I ride on a wet road. The air filter probably sucks in water. I don't see how it would get into the float chamber but I'd like to protect the carburettor from water anyway. The gap between the air filter and mudguard is only about 1.5 cm. I guess, for starters, I'm looking for a rubber inlet hose with air filter box that could be mounted higher.
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