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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 10:25 - 26 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jewlio Rides Again LLB wrote:

The CND had a slogan, probably still do - dirty, dangerous, expensive. Still remains as valid as ever.


CND? What has domestic/industrial energy production got to do with disarmament? Nuclear weapons are supposed to be dangerous Laughing

Campaign for Nuclear Destruction - you know it makes sense!
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 11:38 - 26 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's the problem with sticking nuclear waste on a rocket and firing it into the sun or something similar.

No, it's not cheap but then neither will electricity be when all our fossil fuel generators are shut down.

The only way renewables can plug the gap is with huge investment in projects like the Severn barrage, and no government is going ti invest that much or go up against the greens protecting nesting sites and the like.

https://www.reuk.co.uk/wordpress/tidal/severn-barrage-tidal-power/

Unless there is a breakthrough in some other technology, nuclear is the only mass generation that will work.
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Diggs
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PostPosted: 12:35 - 26 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

To my mind unless we reduce our need for commercially produced energy, whatever that may be, we are up sticky creek. In the future we simply won't be able to plug something in and expect it to work without it costing lots more than it does now.

Likewise we need to reduce our reliance upon goods transported over long distance relatively cheaply. We won't be running about in domestic vehicles on the scale we are now, nor will it be economic to transport high volume, heavy goods quickly by road because carbon-based fuel will be too expensive and a decline in its use will lead to a decline in the production of new vehicles, maintenance of existing ones etc etc etc. It will become a spiral, with the only oil-based transport left at the end that which has commercial viability (like a small engine in a large boat), or a bit of 'speciality' fuel for rich people to run classics.

We won't have to make use of the new generation of nuclear power stations beyond 2040 (my estimate) because use of electricity will decline as it becomes more expensive and the grid will decay to the point where it is uneconomic to repair.

What will grow however is localised CHP and this will continue for those with sufficient wealth and firepower to keep the starving masses at bay.

It is a gloomy picture, however we have a combination of factors unique to our period in time about to converge - overpopulation, global warming and the end of a cheap but environmentally destructive fuel source.

Happy Christmas!
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Sister Sledge
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PostPosted: 12:52 - 26 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

People forget that nuclear generation of electricity began with the making of weapons grade products. Sellafied, or whatever it was called back in its early days had electricity pylons leading to it - they brought electricity to the site and not away!! The public were misled for years.
Nuclear power generates so much crap it's unreal. Sure there's the fuels and byproducts but you also have other contaminated waste from equipment all the way through to overalls and other PPE.
Concrete much at those sites too = CO2.
Thorium reactors are still decades off being acceptable.

What surprised me was the UK and its need for electricity. Think about all of those industries we've lots and how efficient everything is now - yet we use far more electricity these days. I find that staggering.
One wasteful example is lit main roads - why?? Roads not used by pedestrians and vehicles using them have lights so do they illuminate the bloody things? Such a waste that.

I actually hope we head back a bit with our thinking and start using local produce more often. A return to those times seems fair enough. Less use of electricity would be good too.

I have no idea how congestion charges got me here.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 12:55 - 26 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jewlio Rides Again LLB wrote:
Yeah, the security at airports and Buckingham Palace is great too. Rolling Eyes

The CND had a slogan, probably still do - dirty, dangerous, expensive. Still remains as valid as ever.

No really you've got a better chance of molesting the queen.

Polarbear wrote:
What's the problem with sticking nuclear waste on a rocket and firing it into the sun or something similar.

That was my idea to pitch to Elon Musk Folded arms I imagine the danger would be if a rocket went bang Smile
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 18:14 - 26 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fourte wrote:


They really really won't have nuclear engines running in general freighters. The security risks are too great - dirty bombs much. Then there's the need to produce fuel for those extra engines and dealing with the waste and decommissioning.

Electrifying everything is all too well but it simply pushes pollution to other places - notice how London has barely any wind turbines around it? I can take you to places in Northumberland (an area of outstanding natural beauty) and look in any direction and you'll see fug ugly wind farms. Wind farms which transmit power to the National Grid which in turn powers London among other things. Londoners are NIMBYs.

Canals? Far too narrow and far too inefficient due to resistive load on moving things. They also go everywhere except in straight lines. Finally, they only go so far north and then give up. We'd be better off with long conveyor belts running on solar. Need a box sent somewhere? Drop it on the conveyor.


Fair point about nuclear powered transport and the related security isues. I overlooked the fact that submarines and aircraft carriers have their own highly trained security team on board at all times Laughing

Not sure you're correct about wind power though. London and the surroundings probably have fewer turbines because it isn't windy enough. There's no special reason why landowners in Northumberland would agree to wind turbines while those in the south reject them all. It's just more windy on the high ground (and coastal areas).

Oh and I've just found this: The London Array. Second lagest wind farm in the world. The London Array. Laughing

I'd like to recommend a book to you: https://withouthotair.com/download.html

I've shared it on here before. The website is a littly tacky, but the book itself is well respected, written by one of the top physics/engineering blokes at Cambridge uni. It outlines all the sustainable energy options for the UK if the country is to be serious about transitioning away from oil reliance. It's a very unbiased account, but the conclusion quite clearly leans toward two final options: Everyone cuts down on their power consumption, or we get ready for nuclear.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 18:20 - 26 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fourte wrote:

Nuclear power generates so much crap it's unreal.


Nucler power generates far less crap than coal, gas etc.

The amount of energy used by one person in a year could be provided by such a small amount of nuclear fuel that you could fit it in your back pocket.

The same energy from hydrocarbons requires about 70 tons per person, per year.

(A coupld of facts from the book I put in my previous post)

There's also no air pollution, anywhere. A maximally electrified country would be amazing.
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Diggs
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PostPosted: 18:52 - 26 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 CPT wrote:
Diggs wrote:
To my mind unless we reduce our need for commercially produced energy, whatever that may be, we are up sticky creek. In the future we simply won't be able to plug something in and expect it to work without it costing lots more than it does now.

Likewise we need to reduce our reliance upon goods transported over long distance relatively cheaply. We won't be running about in domestic vehicles on the scale we are now, nor will it be economic to transport high volume, heavy goods quickly by road because carbon-based fuel will be too expensive and a decline in its use will lead to a decline in the production of new vehicles, maintenance of existing ones etc etc etc. It will become a spiral, with the only oil-based transport left at the end that which has commercial viability (like a small engine in a large boat), or a bit of 'speciality' fuel for rich people to run classics.

We won't have to make use of the new generation of nuclear power stations beyond 2040 (my estimate) because use of electricity will decline as it becomes more expensive and the grid will decay to the point where it is uneconomic to repair.

What will grow however is localised CHP and this will continue for those with sufficient wealth and firepower to keep the starving masses at bay.

It is a gloomy picture, however we have a combination of factors unique to our period in time about to converge - overpopulation, global warming and the end of a cheap but environmentally destructive fuel source.

Happy Christmas!


Here we go again. More Liberal green fantasy. Wink

Plasma powered horses?


Nothing to do with Liberals or Greens. These are my own ideas.

Still waiting to read what your ideas are....
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Sister Sledge
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PostPosted: 19:47 - 26 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
Fourte wrote:

Nuclear power generates so much crap it's unreal.


Nucler power generates far less crap than coal, gas etc.

The amount of energy used by one person in a year could be provided by such a small amount of nuclear fuel that you could fit it in your back pocket.

The same energy from hydrocarbons requires about 70 tons per person, per year.

(A coupld of facts from the book I put in my previous post)

There's also no air pollution, anywhere. A maximally electrified country would be amazing.


I'd rather have coal on my fire than a piece of uranium in my back pocket..

It's all fair do's though - we definitely need to cut back on wastage.
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 23:04 - 26 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
Jewlio Rides Again LLB wrote:

The CND had a slogan, probably still do - dirty, dangerous, expensive. Still remains as valid as ever.


CND? What has domestic/industrial energy production got to do with disarmament? Nuclear weapons are supposed to be dangerous Laughing

Campaign for Nuclear Destruction - you know it makes sense!


CND isn't UKIP - They do have more than one idea Laughing
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M.C
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PostPosted: 00:56 - 27 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jewlio Rides Again LLB wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:
CND? What has domestic/industrial energy production got to do with disarmament? Nuclear weapons are supposed to be dangerous Laughing

Campaign for Nuclear Destruction - you know it makes sense!


CND isn't UKIP - They do have more than one idea Laughing

If they had one idea (like UKIP) might they have a better chance of achieving it? Smile
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 01:23 - 27 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jewlio Rides Again LLB wrote:


CND isn't UKIP - They do have more than one idea Laughing


Folded arms It's all in the name as far as I'm concerned.
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 06:48 - 27 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://cnduk.org/campaigns/no-nuclear-power/
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Sister Sledge
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PostPosted: 10:23 - 27 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

We can't have nuclear power anyway - I live in one of those 'Nuclear Free Zones' or whatever bollox that is.
Not a single resident voted for that status and one day the signs were silently taken down..
Might have been something to do with it being pointed out to local politicians that medical facilities, industry, education and food services use nuclear materials!
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 15:02 - 27 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jewlio Rides Again LLB wrote:
https://cnduk.org/campaigns/no-nuclear-power/


They're idiots. What does the 'D' in CND stand for? What is an 'armament'? Why don't they change their name? Why not call themselves Campaign for Unmaking Nuclear Technology? Wink
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Diggs
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PostPosted: 10:58 - 06 Jan 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not wishing to reignite this topic, but this is for the benefit of anybody that thinks that we won't turn to alternatives to the internal combustion engine for freight in this country....

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/inland-port-could-be-operational-in-leeds-by-spring-2020-1-9221741
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 12:46 - 06 Jan 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Diggs wrote:
Not wishing to reignite this topic, but this is for the benefit of anybody that thinks that we won't turn to alternatives to the internal combustion engine for freight in this country....

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/inland-port-could-be-operational-in-leeds-by-spring-2020-1-9221741

Diggs, you old romantic! Sadly, (and leaving aside the question of motive power,) industry won't relocate canal-side when the road infrastructure offers greater capacity, speed and convenience. I think if the 1960's Beeching Report hadn't destroyed the railway branch network we'd be in a much better position now with respect to freight transport, road traffic and local services. Too late now though.
Sister Sledge wrote:
We can't have nuclear power anyway - I live in one of those 'Nuclear Free Zones' or whatever bollox that is.
Not a single resident voted for that status and one day the signs were silently taken down.

I think when CO2 and NO2 emissions were outed as bad for the environment, and wind and solar farms were getting a bad press, there was a period where some of The Greens began to think nuclear energy wasn't such a bad alternative. They seem to have backtracked but perhaps it's no surprise the country's only Green MP represents Brighton, which literally has a sea of wind farms to gladden the voters' hearts even if they won't power the town.

Biotechnology is the answer. We have a transport infrastructure and a fuel delivery infrastructure based upon liquid hydrocarbons. Oil companies know the remaining crude oil reserves are increasingly hard to reach so they are planning for their own future by investing in biofuels. Processes which use all manner of waste materials as feedstocks for micro-organisms to produce hydrocarbons are being developed. Currently they all have their own environmental difficulties as well as technological ones but I think biofuels will be the next step forward. No need to step back into the past.

https://biofuel.org.uk


Last edited by Kawasaki Jimbo on 12:58 - 06 Jan 2019; edited 1 time in total
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 12:54 - 06 Jan 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Canal and River Trust are involved it will be an utter fuck up. I deal with them just about every day and they are the epitome of 'Organise, brewery and can't'
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Diggs
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PostPosted: 13:20 - 06 Jan 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
Diggs wrote:
Not wishing to reignite this topic, but this is for the benefit of anybody that thinks that we won't turn to alternatives to the internal combustion engine for freight in this country....

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/inland-port-could-be-operational-in-leeds-by-spring-2020-1-9221741

Diggs, you old romantic! Sadly, (and leaving aside the question of motive power,) industry won't relocate canal-side when the road infrastructure offers greater capacity, speed and convenience. I think if the 1960's Beeching Report hadn't destroyed the railway branch network we'd be in a much better position now with respect to freight transport, road traffic and local services. Too late now though.
Sister Sledge wrote:
We can't have nuclear power anyway - I live in one of those 'Nuclear Free Zones' or whatever bollox that is.
Not a single resident voted for that status and one day the signs were silently taken down.

I think when CO2 and NO2 emissions were outed as bad for the environment, and wind and solar farms were getting a bad press, there was a period where some of The Greens began to think nuclear energy wasn't such a bad alternative. They seem to have backtracked but perhaps it's no surprise the country's only Green MP represents Brighton, which literally has a sea of wind farms to gladden the voters' hearts even if they won't power the town.

Biotechnology is the answer. We have a transport infrastructure and a fuel delivery infrastructure based upon liquid hydrocarbons. Oil companies know the remaining crude oil reserves are increasingly hard to reach so they are planning for their own future by investing in biofuels. Processes which use all manner of waste materials as feedstocks for micro-organisms to produce hydrocarbons are being developed. Currently they all have their own environmental difficulties as well as technological ones but I think biofuels will be the next step forward. No need to step back into the past.

https://biofuel.org.uk


I agree with you about biofuels to a degree, but to produce a corresponding amount of biofuel to the amount of oil we use presently, we would have no land left to grow food.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 13:33 - 06 Jan 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Diggs wrote:
I agree with you about biofuels to a degree, but to produce a corresponding amount of biofuel to the amount of oil we use presently, we would have no land left to grow food.

That's why I specifically dodged that issue by saying we might use waste materials (sewage or chaff) as feedstock for algae or micro-organisms. We could solve two problems in one. Science and technology is usually the answer, although admittedly they often bring new problems with them. That's progress.
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Diggs
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PostPosted: 13:42 - 06 Jan 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

It isn't as daft as it seems in terms of location of industry, because the industrial revolution was originally water-powered, then coal-powered with the coal transported along watercourses. Much of the despoiled land and remaining industry in the UK is close to the canal and inland waterway network for this very reason.
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