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Rolling Thunder UK 12th April

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Motorhate
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PostPosted: 20:11 - 09 Apr 2019    Post subject: Rolling Thunder UK 12th April Reply with quote

Anybody doing this on Friday? It's a protest in support of Soldier F who the government have seen fit to prosecute for an event that happened over 40 years ago:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/400564117396708/

Reckon there'll be a great turnout with thousands of bikers turning up in London.
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Paddy.
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PostPosted: 08:09 - 10 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

They'd still do the same to anyone suspected of being a nazi.

What does doing something over 40 years ago have to do with it? Still did it, just managed to escape and didn't bother moving to a warmer more hidden country.
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Motorhate
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PostPosted: 08:18 - 10 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paddy. wrote:
They'd still do the same to anyone suspected of being a nazi.

What does doing something over 40 years ago have to do with it? Still did it, just managed to escape and didn't bother moving to a warmer more hidden country.


Well call me old fashioned but when you issue murdering terrorist scum letters of immunity from prosecution under the Good Friday Agreement but see fit to prosecute our own, it's sort of ... you know ... smells of bullshit and hypocrisy.
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jnw010
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PostPosted: 08:54 - 10 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't access the link, but is this going into the ULEZ?
Laughing if it is.
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Motorhate
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PostPosted: 09:03 - 10 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, straight into the ULEZ. I'm sure Mr Khan will be over the moon about it.
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MarJay
But it's British!



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PostPosted: 11:15 - 10 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paddy. wrote:
They'd still do the same to anyone suspected of being a nazi.

What does doing something over 40 years ago have to do with it? Still did it, just managed to escape and didn't bother moving to a warmer more hidden country.


Yeah basically this. They checked all of the other soldiers for wrongdoing, and in the process found this guy did something that was unacceptable then, and is unacceptable now. By trying to protest it, you're applying a level of false equivalence.

If people want to protest it, then fine, but if you look at the makeup of the sort of people who ARE protesting it, well... it'll look a bit like a Tommy Robinson type event I reckon.
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Motorhate
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PostPosted: 11:18 - 10 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarJay wrote:
Yeah basically this. They checked all of the other soldiers for wrongdoing, and in the process found this guy did something that was unacceptable then, and is unacceptable now. By trying to protest it, you're applying a level of false equivalence.


So you're happy with IRA murderers getting letters of immunity from prosecution from the British government after the Good Friday Agreement ? 228 of them to be exact?

Quote:
If people want to protest it, then fine, but if you look at the makeup of the sort of people who ARE protesting it, well... it'll look a bit like a Tommy Robinson type event I reckon.


It's mainly armed forces veterans. Sorry if they don't reach the mark of "acceptable" individuals.
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MarJay
But it's British!



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PostPosted: 11:51 - 10 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Motorhate wrote:
It's mainly armed forces veterans. Sorry if they don't reach the mark of "acceptable" individuals.


Yeah, because there are no white supremacists in the Armed Forces, right? Rolling Eyes

The difference being that the actions of those 228 were acceptable to their own side. Like it or not, we agreed to the Good Friday Agreement. What we did not agree to was some sort of equivalent amnesty on our own side, especially when the actions taken in this case were unacceptable at the time, and remain unacceptable today.

It's not true to say that just because people are on 'our side' that they shouldn't be held to account. If this guy did act without order and initiate what was a political disaster for the whole British isles, then he should have been held to account before now. The fact that he was not is the real issue here.

he'll be fairly tried in a court of law in one of the least corrupt judicial systems in the world. I don't think you can really say much fairer than that. And arguing that it was a long time ago doesn't cut any ice. Jimmy Saville happened a long time ago, but he shouldn't have been allowed to get away with it.
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Motorhate
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PostPosted: 12:18 - 10 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarJay wrote:
Yeah, because there are no white supremacists in the Armed Forces, right? Rolling Eyes


So you've got evidence there'll be a sizeable amount of white supremacists in London on Friday. Wow, who knew? I'll keep an eye open for burning crosses and lynchings.

Quote:
The difference being that the actions of those 228 were acceptable to their own side. Like it or not, we agreed to the Good Friday Agreement.


Just like the actions of ISIS were acceptable to their own side? How does that make it acceptable or indeed have any bearing? "We" never agreed anything. The government agreed to allow terrorists immunity from prosecution for their crimes which IMO stinks.

Quote:
"What we did not agree to was some sort of equivalent amnesty on our own side, especially when the actions taken in this case were unacceptable at the time, and remain unacceptable today."


Which is why the protest is taking place. It appears the terrorists can get away with murder for some reason.

Quote:
It's not true to say that just because people are on 'our side' that they shouldn't be held to account.


I never said that. I'm merely highlighting the one-sided hypocrisy of all this. See my above comment

Quote:
If this guy did act without order and initiate what was a political disaster for the whole British isles, then he should have been held to account before now. The fact that he was not is the real issue here.


The reason being is because all soldiers involved who gave accounts of what happened years ago, were never interviewed under caution. Any evidence would be inadmissible then as it would be now. Some have since died as well. They also gave evidence in two previous enquiries and no evidence was found against them.

Quote:
And arguing that it was a long time ago doesn't cut any ice. Jimmy Saville happened a long time ago, but he shouldn't have been allowed to get away with it.


My point about the length of time was to highlight that the GFA was ratified in 1998. Many many IRA unsolved crimes have not been investigated or even looked at since then. One trial of an IRA man collapsed due to the so-called "comfort letters" the government issued and that seems to have been it.
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 12:42 - 10 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Motorhate wrote:


So you've got evidence there'll be a sizeable amount of white supremacists in London on Friday. Wow, who knew? I'll keep an eye open for burning crosses and lynchings.


Not evidence per se, but a lot of the comments I've seen on the facebook posts trying to promote this are basically Tommy Robinson Red-pill takers. You might not be aware of this, but there are white supremacists who are not members of the Klan...? I reckon there will be an awful lot of slightly portly men wearing St George cross polo shirts though.

Motorhate wrote:

Just like the actions of ISIS were acceptable to their own side? How does that make it acceptable or indeed have any bearing? "We" never agreed anything. The government agreed to allow terrorists immunity from prosecution for their crimes which IMO stinks.
Once again, false equivalence. We have not, nor have ever offered anyone from ISIS an amnesty in exchange for peace. It's also true to say that legitimate nations must hold themselves to a higher ideal than a bunch of terrorist thugs. Shooting civilian protesters is, let's face it, not allowed.

Motorhate wrote:

Which is why the protest is taking place. It appears the terrorists can get away with murder for some reason.
They did, but it's a semantic argument to some extent, and we offered them an amnesty in good faith. Whether or not the terrorists can get away with murder is irrelevant to a soldier who allegedly opened fire on civilians without an order from their superiors to do so. People within the chain of command who are not part of ad hoc terrorist cells should not do this, and if they do they should be held to account. Nobody is saying that there is not some level of injustice in the ulster terrorists getting away with murder, but it has no bearing on this case really. It's very much a "But THEIR side did it mommy, how come *I* can't?" argument.

Motorhate wrote:

I never said that. I'm merely highlighting the one-sided hypocrisy of all this. See my above comment
Again see above. There is a fundamental difference between a professional soldier working for a legitimate nation's armed forces, and a terrorist. I'm sure you'd agree to this, and therefore there should be a difference in how they are treated. If this means the terrorist is shot on sight when committing an act of terrorism then so be it. If it means that the terrorist is not investigated for alleged terrorist acts because of an amnesty that a nation has legitimately offered to them in return for peace, then so be it. It's the price we pay for peace.

Motorhate wrote:

The reason being is because all soldiers involved who gave accounts of what happened years ago, were never interviewed under caution. Any evidence would be inadmissible then as it would be now. Some have since died as well. They also gave evidence in two previous enquiries and no evidence was found against them.
One assumes there is some level of forensic evidence, or something in a statement was missed, or there was an internal cover up within the military hierarchy. Who knows? But if the evidence does come to light, then it should be acted upon. Again if there has been no crime committed, it will likely be discovered during the trial process, and the soldier will be found innocent.

Motorhate wrote:
My point about the length of time was to highlight that the GFA was ratified in 1998. Many many IRA unsolved crimes have not been investigated or even looked at since then. One trial of an IRA man collapsed due to the so-called "comfort letters" the government issued and that seems to have been it.


Meh, again we agreed to an amnesty that was not reciprocated. This is an issue with our negotiation from the time, and our willingness to make certain compromises in the name of peace. What other irish/northern irish people have done in the past is absolutely irrelevant to this case.

A policeman cannot shoot an unarmed suspect, but occasionally suspects shoot unarmed policemen. There is no equivalence between the two, and the primary difference is that in a civilized society we hold our own people accountable for their actions. If this soldier is innocent, then I'm sure he'll be found innocent in the trial process. Protesting him being investigated or arrested or charged is disrespect to the overall judicial process.

By all means protest the supposed terrorists who have gotten away with historic crimes, but nobody seems to be too bothered about doing that. Perhaps that's the real issue here. By not protesting that, surely people are tacitly accepting the Good Friday Agreement as it stands, and therefore can't argue that as a weird false equivalence between a soldier under the command of HM armed forces and a guy who blows people up because some people disagree with his political views.
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Bhud
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PostPosted: 12:49 - 10 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a ride out, OK, so it does have some relevance to bikes.

Doesn't Soldier F want his day in court so he can present his side of the story and establish his innocence once and for all? After all, it's said that he has had a long and distinguished career in the army, and he wouldn't want that tainted by wild allegations.

The circumstances are important. This is a divisive issue, unlike, say, the murder of Lee Rigby, for which everyone, I'm sure, would be willing to go out of their way and show their support by riding out. It's made clear to services personnel when they enlist that the armed forces aren't allowed to break the law (e.g. commit acts of murder) nor the Geneva Convention nor the rules of engagement. The allegation is that this is what happened, and as a result there was a massive injection of popular support for violent insurgency (the IRA). The end result, if not the intention, is said to have been very harmful to the national interest. Yes, breaking the law and the Geneva Convention and the rules of engagement are the reality of how counter-guerrilla warfare is conducted (source: an encyclopedia). But nobody is going to come out and outright acknowledge that fact.

Granted, there are double-standards and hypocrisy. But this is a dirty, dirty affair by anyone's standards. Clearly, the end goal, a state of peace in northern Ireland and a cessation of terrorist acts, has been achieved. In the 80s, I remember, there was, seemingly, a bombing on a regular basis in London. Thankfully, this is history now.

A lot of people deserve to be held to account for crimes other people say they clearly committed. Even so, I don't see how that makes it right for even one person to get off the hook Scot-free. I don't see any reason to believe an open court trial would be rigged. It might all come down to whether you trust the justice system. For trials of lesser offences, I generally don't. That's my personal hangup or whatever. But I fail to see how this is in any way a stitch-up of an ex-paratrooper. The Parachute Regiment itself would probably appreciate having this question aired and the matter cleared or settled one way or another, restoring trust in them on the part of the Republican community in northern Ireland in some small way. What's missing here is the opinion of the Regiment and that of Soldier F himself. For that reason, this is going to remain very much a minority cause.
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mpd72
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PostPosted: 13:59 - 10 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paddy. wrote:
They'd still do the same to anyone suspected of being a nazi.


Or a terrorist? It seems a few hundred IRA, who slaughtered innocent civilians are OK and immune from scapegoat prosecutions, but one soldier eh?

Paddy. wrote:
What does doing something over 40 years ago have to do with it? Still did it, just managed to escape and didn't bother moving to a warmer more hidden country.


Like all the immune, freed, IRA terrorists who are openly living in Ireland. Whilst I see your point, it's a tad one sided.
The bloke is a scapegoat, much like the fella in the Hillesborough disaster, where thousands of Scousers who were once again, as they'd done previously at other matches, trying to force the gates but had nothing what so ever to do with the crowd crushing each other. It was all the fault of the Police officer who gave the order to open the gate where fans were already being crushed to death against, due to nothing to do with thousands of fans surging forward, trying to get in without a ticket as they used to do at all matches back then. Rolling Eyes
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bhinso
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PostPosted: 14:21 - 10 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not really following what white supremacism has to do with it. Unless I'm wrong, most of the IRA were white males too?

It's pretty obvious to me what is going on here. There are many in the IRA/'real IRA'/'true IRA' whatever, who would like a return to hostilities. The situation with Br**it is starting to give them a justification, with a possible hard border in Ireland.

The view of the government seems to be to throw some poor fucker out to dry, and hope that appeases the IRA.
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mpd72
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PostPosted: 14:22 - 10 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

bhinso wrote:

The view of the government seems to be to throw some poor fucker out to dry, and hope that appeases the IRA.


Nailed it. Thumbs Up

That's why it's happening now.
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WimbleHJR
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PostPosted: 14:32 - 10 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
bhinso wrote:

The view of the government seems to be to throw some poor fucker out to dry, and hope that appeases the IRA.


Nailed it. Thumbs Up

That's why it's happening now.


Sure Jan... Rolling Eyes

The man shot unarmed civilians. Why do you think that's acceptable?

Say you go to the protest and get shot by the police/army along with 10 other people... Would it be acceptable? Would your family accept it if, after 40 years, no one was charged?

It's a trial. He will be subject to the law and will have his chance to defend himself.

By all means protest if you want, but while you're there not getting shot, maybe take a moment to realise that you're better off than the people he allegedly shot at.
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mpd72
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PostPosted: 14:45 - 10 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

WimbleHJR wrote:
Sure Jan... Rolling Eyes


Eh?

WimbleHJR wrote:
The man shot unarmed civilians. Why do you think that's acceptable?


So it's not possible the armed members of the crowd suddenly merged in with all the non armed angry mob? The same sort of unarmed mob who'd previously dragged an unarmed of duty soldier from his car and beat him to death?

WimbleHJR wrote:
Say you go to the protest and get shot by the police/army along with 10 other people... Would it be acceptable? Would your family accept it if, after 40 years, no one was charged?


If I blow up innocent civilians with a bomb, I'd be excused form prosecution.

WimbleHJR wrote:
It's a trial. He will be subject to the law and will have his chance to defend himself.


It's a kangaroo court to appease the IRA, he's the scapegoat, Wake up.

WimbleHJR wrote:
By all means protest if you want, but while you're there not getting shot, maybe take a moment to realise that you're better off than the people he allegedly shot at.


Who were allegedly unarmed innocent civilians with hundreds of similar British hating witnesses to back them up.

So, whether this guy was trigger happy or not, why no mention of the IRA murdering terrorists who have been freed, given immunity of prosecution and are laughing watching this bloke get stitched up?
It's just another classic case of a spineless government bowing to terrorists and throwing their own loyal subjects to the lions.

Does it not tick your virtue signalling box?
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WimbleHJR
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PostPosted: 15:06 - 10 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:


So it's not possible the armed members of the crowd suddenly merged in with all the non armed angry mob? The same sort of unarmed mob who'd previously dragged an unarmed of duty soldier from his car and beat him to death? [/b]


Well, His assertion that there were "gunmen and bombers killed" was rejected in Lord Saville's report.



mpd72 wrote:
If I blow up innocent civilians with a bomb, I'd be excused form prosecution. [/b]
How many of the 11 innocent civilians blew someone up?

mpd72 wrote:
It's a kangaroo court to appease the IRA, he's the scapegoat, Wake up. [/b]


Jesus wept, it's a British court of law. He has his legal feels paid by the MOD. He has the British government supporting him

mpd72 wrote:

Who were allegedly unarmed innocent civilians with hundreds of similar British hating witnesses to back them up.

So, whether this guy was trigger happy or not, why no mention of the IRA murdering terrorists who have been freed, given immunity of prosecution and are laughing watching this bloke get stitched up?

Does it not tick your virtue signalling box?


Allegedly unarmed?! 47 years. If after 47 years and an enquiry to look into this that found none of the 11 were posing a threat, your argument is that they were "allegedly unarmed". I mean, I feel like you're just ignoring evidence you don't like now. Which is a lot more pathetic than any virtue signalling.
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bhinso
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PostPosted: 15:22 - 10 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think it's acceptable to kill innocent people if you're feeling a bit trigger happy and get some sort of perverse ego boost from it.

Nor do I feel it's acceptable to celebrate the killing of innocent people (think Palestine, September 11th 2001).

I honestly can't say whether it was justified because I wasn't in this soldier's position.

If someone was coming at me with a knife then I wouldn't have week long trials to decide the right course of action. I'd like to think the survival instinct would kick in. If however, this was a pre-meditated course of action LIKE ALL OF THE IRA BOMBINGS, then he should rightly be convicted.

Is it not a bit coincidental that after all these years, this is all suddenly coming out at the time of Brexit?
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WimbleHJR
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PostPosted: 15:46 - 10 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

bhinso wrote:
I don't think it's acceptable to kill innocent people if you're feeling a bit trigger happy and get some sort of perverse ego boost from it.

Nor do I feel it's acceptable to celebrate the killing of innocent people (think Palestine, September 11th 2001).

I honestly can't say whether it was justified because I wasn't in this soldier's position.

If someone was coming at me with a knife then I wouldn't have week long trials to decide the right course of action. I'd like to think the survival instinct would kick in. If however, this was a pre-meditated course of action LIKE ALL OF THE IRA BOMBINGS, then he should rightly be convicted.

Is it not a bit coincidental that after all these years, this is all suddenly coming out at the time of Brexit?


So you're actually going to protest because you want more trials, not because you don't want Soldier F to be tried?

I honestly don't know when it comes to the timing. Brexit has stirred things up in Ireland/Northern Ireland, but then that was always going to happen so... I personally think, when you look at how long it took for the Hillsborough disaster to come to trial that maybe with something so controversial it needs time to remove the political urgency that then allows a trial like this.

And regarding whether it was justified or not, that's the point of this trial. He hasn't been found guilty yet.

Final point from me, it is a complex situation. I don't think whataboutery regarding the IRA should be relevant, purely because it doesn't make any difference to the victims and ultimately, they are the people that matter.

I respect your right to protest, but I don't agree. It's not virtue signalling, it's a different point of view
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Diggs
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PostPosted: 16:17 - 10 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

My view is that if one side in a conflict is given immunity from prosecution, the other side should be given it too. I don't see what good can come from raking it all up again decades later irrespective of the alleged offence when we have the Good Friday Agreement and it is working.

Remember that the IRA wanted the British Government to treat convicted terrorists as prisioners of war, and some even starved themselves to death for this view. That being the case, surely all the actions of soldiers in Ireland should be treated as acts of war also, and that whatever the soldier did or didn't do should be seen in this context?

I may be a tad biased however, because for two decades we had to check the family car for bombs with a mirror on a stick because of my Dad's job. I can't see how raking up the past with a trial like this can possibly help to maintain peace in Ireland. Only open dialogue can do that.
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mpd72
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PostPosted: 16:26 - 10 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

WimbleHJR wrote:

How many of the 11 innocent civilians blew someone up?


Who knows the truth when it will be well hidden by the IRA and it's supporters. How many innocent civilians did the over 200 IRA terrorists kill? You know, the ones not on trial, who the British government have given "get out of prosecution" cards, whilst using one of their own soldiers as a scapegoat to appease the very same terrorists?

WimbleHJR wrote:
Jesus wept, it's a British court of law. He has his legal feels paid by the MOD. He has the British government supporting him


Want any magic beans? He's a scapegoat to appease the IRA at a time where they're stiring up shit again. Do you really not see this?

WimbleHJR wrote:
Allegedly unarmed?! 47 years. If after 47 years and an enquiry to look into this that found none of the 11 were posing a threat, your argument is that they were "allegedly unarmed". I mean, I feel like you're just ignoring evidence you don't like now. Which is a lot more pathetic than any virtue signalling.


Give over. The only witnesses in the crowd were IRA sympathisers or IRA terrorists. They're hardly going to say, "Yeah to be sure, to be sure, they had guns but we took them away, so we could blame the army". You're never going to hear the truth, much like Hillesborough. It's the spineless government bending over to appease the masses again.
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mpd72
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PostPosted: 16:29 - 10 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Diggs wrote:
My view is that if one side in a conflict is given immunity from prosecution, the other side should be given it too. I don't see what good can come from raking it all up again decades later irrespective of the alleged offence when we have the Good Friday Agreement and it is working.

Remember that the IRA wanted the British Government to treat convicted terrorists as prisioners of war, and some even starved themselves to death for this view. That being the case, surely all the actions of soldiers in Ireland should be treated as acts of war also, and that whatever the soldier did or didn't do should be seen in this context?

I may be a tad biased however, because for two decades we had to check the family car for bombs with a mirror on a stick because of my Dad's job. I can't see how raking up the past with a trial like this can possibly help to maintain peace in Ireland. Only open dialogue can do that.


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bhinso
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PostPosted: 16:58 - 10 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know how much credence to put in the Jimmy Saville report, because if the opposite conclusion was reached it would have angered the IRA.

It's like the way things are moving in Afghanistan, towards a peace deal with the Taliban. If things went down the same route, we'd give immunity to those guilty of bombings, planting IED's, etc. whilst convicting our own?
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wr6133
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PostPosted: 19:47 - 10 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

My 20 pence

As I said in the other thread it's a fucking disgrace that we are prosecuting one of our own while amnesty applies to the Taigs.

I was going to attend this ride but from what I've seen on social media and other places on the web I'm with Marjay that the far right will be trying to get their voice involved, even if that is in small numbers it'll likely become the focus of any reporting related too it (and only harm the poor bastards cause). For that reason I won't attend I will not be associated with Facists.
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Shaft
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PostPosted: 00:00 - 11 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

bhinso wrote:
I don't know how much credence to put in the Jimmy Saville report, because if the opposite conclusion was reached it would have angered the IRA.



I can tell you what I know, based on what I was told by a guy I worked with, who was one of the soldiers who opened fire on that crowd and is probably one of those now unnamed (assuming he's still alive, I heard a while ago he wasn't in a good place)

Their training was simple and drummed into them, until it became a reflex - if you hear a shot, you fire back, twice, in as close as you can get to the direction of that shot, then take cover; that's a standing order, it doesn't require on the spot instruction.

So we have a situation where somebody heard something he fancied to be a shot, he retaliated and his colleagues took that lead and did the same, hence we have a couple of dozen shots fired into a dense crowd - people are going to get killed or seriously injured.

I can only assume that soldier F has been determined to be the one that fired first and set off the chain reaction.

I also have had close acquaintance with people that were involved with the IRA (eg I have sat at a kitchen table with a guy that told me how he built bombs on that same table) and, as far as everyone involved in that conflict was concerned, it was war, which has it's own set of rules, however unpalatable that might be to the more PC members of our latest society.

Regardless of what the Saville report found, the soldiers in that situation were doing what they were intensively trained to do; if anyone is to blame, it's the higher ups that ordered that training to take place, assuming you don't subscribe to the idea that the past is a different country, they did things differently there.

This guy is being hung out to dry, I only hope our justice system works for him, it will be an absolute travesty if it doesn't.
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