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 Posted: 02:36 - 10 Jan 2019  Post subject: |
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| stinkwheel wrote: | Actually. Given your sig. Do not buy a ZZR1100. They are too more-ish. |
LOL that's only my sig because I'm currently poodling around on a YBR.
| ThunderGuts wrote: | A 650 Suzuki could be an SV650 |
I think I concluded it was probably an ER6, not a Susuki, sorry.
| kgm wrote: | I rode an er6 for 3 years and didn't get bored. It had limitations which annoyed me (poor handling with pillion, suspension not up to higher speeds on rough roads, etc.) But power wasn't one of them most of the time. It depends how and where you ride. For the often tight and twisty roads I like, a lighter lower powered bike can be more fun.
VFR should be ok ergos wise, it's not as lean over as a supersport, and bar risers are cheap. Typically 600cc in line 4s are quite revvy. They are great when getting on it, but I prefer a 650cc twin for the flexibility it offers around town and on tighter roads. They feel more pokey to me I'm general use than the 600s, which are noticeably quicker if you rev them out. Others will disagree, it's just preference.
Adventure bikes like the vstrom are fine in the twisties, easier even in the tight stuff than many bikes with clip on bars, as the big wide bars offer lots of leverage. If considering the big Strom, consider the 650 too. Considered to be the better bike by many, especially when considering previous generations. The big varadero might suit if you have length to your legs.
The only issue with the big adv bikes is height and weight. No problem if you are tall but some can be a bit top heavy which makes slow control a little harder and can make it easier to drop. This includes the tiger 955 which I'm assuming is the one you were looking at. Not really a problem for me personally, just an adjustment. I'm not that tall but have grown comfortable riding tall bikes just through experience.
The most important thing to decide is what style of bike appeals to you most? What do intend to do with it? Commuting, touring, short hooligan blasts? A bit of everything? That'll narrow it down a bit. I don't think power should be the primary concern and you can always sell it and buy something else at a later date anyway. It's likely what you want from a bike might change in a year's time. Fun can be had in any bike with the right attitude, and improving your cornering is part of that. Any fool can go wide open in a straight line. Some folk need the shove of a litre bike, others have gone back to smaller bikes and found more fun but I think any new rider (and that includes someone in the first few years) probably would struggle to honestly say they've outgrown a middleweight in terms of power and performance (comfort, space, suspension, etc. notwithstanding) |
Thanks that's given me a lot to think about. Having taken everything in, I think I probably will go for a bigger cc, not so I can go screaming up the straights like a lunatic but I like the idea of having lots of torque for lazy, effortless overtaking. Also, larger engined bikes probably haven't been revved so much by previous owners and therefore likelihood on average will have less engine wear and be more reliable? Sounds like a reasonable assumption to me but I may well be talking out of my arse! The taller bikes shouldn't be a problem for me, I'm no giant but a good 6ft dead so should be tall enough to be both balls of the feet on the tarmac on any bike?
That's interesting what you said about the 650 V-Strom being considered by many to be better than the 1000, I watched a review on it where the guy had ridden both and he was saying he wished they just done an 800 to get the best of both worlds.
But yeah I think you're right I need to decide what type of bike I want. I think I've narrowed it down to either a sports tourer or an adventure style bike, and I'm leaning towards adventure, however there's plenty of sports tourers available cheap whereas similar age/mileage adventures seem to be a good few grand more expensive. Maybe just get a cheap sports tourer for now and maybe spend some proper money on something like a GS or an Africa Twin in a few years. I won't be doing any commuting but a social run from Kent to Cambridge once a week or once every two weeks. Probably take it to France for our family holiday every year and make the missus drive the car. Yeah hooligan blasts down the local dual carriageway on one wheel sounds like fun. A good all-rounder is what I'm after which is why I'm not looking at proper sports bikes. Luggage carrying ability not important but I want to be comfortable for at least a 2 hour ride but still have something capable of chucking it through the corners.
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| Posted: 02:40 - 10 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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And thanks to everyone for all your input.
As I said I think I'm looking at big engine sports tourer and hope I don't kill myself. There's a few ZX-12R for around the £2,000 mark I might have a look at those. According to MCN they're better than the Blackbird and the Hayabusa but yeah that's probably subjective! Could get either for under £3,000 or even a ZZR1400!
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| Posted: 05:13 - 10 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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Seems to be an abundance of CBR1100XX really cheap. I think I'd plump for a nice CBR1100XX rather than a tatty ZZR1400.
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| Posted: 21:57 - 10 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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Congrats (belated) on the pass 
I went mid-weight, got my first big bike last week (Bandit 600). Got some solid 125 experience, but even after the bit of training for mod 1 and 2 didn't feel confident enough to go for anything bigger as next bike 
To be fair I am getting used to the 600 quite quickly but can see a huge new learning curve opening up, especially on the curvier bits of road.
Initially I felt a few nerves regarding test rides (600cc was enough) but got over that now and looking forward to getting a ride somehow on one those big boys.
Remains to be seen if I will look back in the future wishing I started on something bigger, let us know how you get on when you get one  |
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| Posted: 02:21 - 11 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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| ThunderGuts wrote: | 
I would think very carefully before committing to a purchase - these are seriously powerful bikes and I think something like a ZX-12R, or a CBR1100XX, is not a good choice for a second bike! You saying you're riding a YBR125 at the moment (I think?) - that's got what, 12bhp or something? You're talking about going from 12bhp to, in the case of the ZX-12R, in the region of 180bhp. That's a phenomenal increase, like going from a milk float to a Bugatti Veyron. Have you checked insurance too on these sorts of bikes? I'd be looking at something 100bhp at the most if I were you, that's loads of power for road use. |
Thanks for your input. I am thinking very carefully, that's why I'm on here asking for advice when I'm still at least a couple of months away from my purchase. Yep currently pottering around on a 10bhp YBR (although I've recently spent nearly £1,000 on tuning it to get it up to 10bhp!). Yes that's correct, that's not a typo', it's now still only 10bhp LOL.
I haven't checked insurance yet but if it's anything in the region of my 476bhp Audi A8 6.0 W12 (which was a shade over £500 as I recall) I think I can probably stomach it. £500 might be eye-watering to some but considering my fleet insurance is about £3,000 per vehicle I've kinda been desensitised to steep insurance premiums (although admittedly those vehicles pay for themselves where as the Audi and the bike will primarily be for leisure, not working vehicles and not earning their keep). I'll eventually be selling the Audi after the bike purchase (the plan is buy the bike, sell the Audi and buy something more practical for work cos at the moment the Audi is my play thing and costing a fortune only doing 12mpg and sometimes I'm ending up using it for work as well when we're short on vehicles so the sale of the Audi will allow me to buy something more practical and economical for work but I won't be too sad to see it go as I'll already have bought a fast bike).
I'm still in a quandary as to what to do. You say 100bhp is plenty for a second bike but I done my DAS on a 72bhp ER6 and felt perfectly comfortable and confident on it. Yes 180bhp is a still a massive leap even from 72bhp but I want a bike I can grow into rather than quickly wishing I'd bought something more powerful.
I kinda feel like I'm being patronised "oooh no you mustn't get anything too powerful, you won't be able to handle it" almost like there's a rite of passage one must undergo (like riding a 600 for 10 years) before one can be allowed on a litre bike LOL and if I'm honest it's kinda what I was expecting, especially as I seem to be arguing against the advice I have asked for. It kinda goes against one of my mottos in life "if you don't like the answer, don't ask the question".
I've been a cabbie for nearly 13 years. I'm doing far fewer driving hours these days because I've got guys working for me now but for at least the first 10 years I was doing 100,000 to 120,000 miles per year (long hours and a phenomenal amount of airport transfers and long distance runs etc.). This is going to sound incredibly arrogant of me but I've got well over a million miles under my belt, at 34 I've gained more experience on the road than most people do in a lifetime. Defensive driving, acute all-round awareness, expecting the unexpected, predicting what that idiot is going to do 10 miles back when most probably wouldn't realise his intentions until they're on his bumper, that's valuable experience. And again it's very conceited of me to say so but I do believe my road awareness has got to be in the top 1% of drivers on the road (which, correct me if I'm wrong but if you're going to come off your bike it's usually at the fault of another road user right?). Other than exercising a bit of discipline and self control on the right wrist and not taking the bends too quickly, I'm not sure what else there can be to it. But maybe I'm just showing my ignorance here.
| stevo as b4 wrote: | That's a bit over simplistic given the age and condition of most ZZR's now. What about if all the chassis bearings are shot which on a big heavy fast bike they probably will be by now, and if the brakes have gone off or warped the discs and seized calipers.
It makes your new shock seem a cheap and easy job. I ain't no wimp but I'm absolutely not interested in riding a bike the weight and power of a ZZR without the brakes and chassis being as good as new. I also know if I bought one I'd easily spend 2-3 times the purchase price making it safe and making it work well if it was a rough one.
The most power and engine size/torque you can afford and fuck how it handles, as cc/speed for a basement budget price tag is all that matters to a new rider? Can't think of anything I'd enjoy less or of a bike I'd much rather leave out to rot in my back garden.
A CB500 with a Maxton front and rear end, 4pot front caliper and some good tyres would be so much more fun for me than a 150bhp Jelly on wheels that I can't afford to fix or justify the spend I'd want to throw at it making it perfect.
Seems like because the OP is 20St we all think he needs well over 1000cc just to get out of his Street? 
And to OP, in my opinion i think the Honda CBR1100XX is a much better all round do everything road bike than a ZX12R. The one good thing that bike is good for is very tall people that are trying to fit on the closest thing they can get to a sportsbike much like the early RSV1000 which fills that brief far better IMO. |
You raise some very good points. I have been considering whether it's worth trying to get something a bit newer (but maybe less powerful) for my budget and then maybe spend a bit more money in a few years time on getting something EVEN newer and/or more powerful. I know I'm contradicting myself now on something I said earlier but I'm not sure I'd want a complete dog. God knows I'm not averse to chucking money at vehicles, anything I buy I would certainly be taking to my local motorcycle mechanic to get him to give it a good looking over and getting him to do anything he recommends but I certainly wouldn't expect it to be 2-3 times the purchase price of the bike. Maybe 50% or maybe I'm being naive. Having said that, the a ZZR14000 I was looking at for £3,000 is a 2008 reg. Is that considered old for a bike???
| chris_hu_cheng wrote: | Congrats (belated) on the pass
I went mid-weight, got my first big bike last week (Bandit 600). Got some solid 125 experience, but even after the bit of training for mod 1 and 2 didn't feel confident enough to go for anything bigger as next bike
To be fair I am getting used to the 600 quite quickly but can see a huge new learning curve opening up, especially on the curvier bits of road.
Initially I felt a few nerves regarding test rides (600cc was enough) but got over that now and looking forward to getting a ride somehow on one those big boys.
Remains to be seen if I will look back in the future wishing I started on something bigger, let us know how you get on when you get one |
Thank you for your kind words. To be honest I've never even test ridden anything bigger than what I done my DAS on, and obviously if I were to test ride something bigger and felt uncomfortable / unsafe on it, I'd have to re-think my decision there and then. I'm just not sure that, with the right attitude and discipline, there's any reason why a new rider shouldn't be able to jump straight on a litre bike and be perfectly fine growing into it??? Again, maybe that's me being naive I just don't see the problem with exercising some self control with the right wrist...
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| Posted: 02:31 - 11 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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| Posted: 02:42 - 11 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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I've just got some insurance quotes and they're come back at around what I was expecting.
2008 ZZR1400 just as an example
Licence for less than one year
No accidents, claims or driving convictions
Pillion passenger
SDP only (no commuting as my office is on my driveway)
No NCD
Comprehensive came out at £1,100 which is a bit more than I was expecting but TPTF came out at £690 which seems reasonable to me. To be perfectly honest unless I was buying something for over £5,000 I probably wouldn't bother with comprehensive anyway. I'm not planning on smashing it up and even if the worst did happen I'd be more concerned about my physical condition rather than the damn bike. It wouldn't be as if I'd lost an absolute fortune and I don't rely on it to get to and from work or anything so if it got written off I'd be acceptant that my toy had gone to the scrap yard in the sky and I may have to save up to buy another in a year or so (assuming I still have all my limbs and spine in tact).
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| Posted: 04:02 - 11 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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| Travis Bickle wrote: | my 476bhp Audi A8 6.0 W12 |
| Travis Bickle wrote: | I done my DAS on a 72bhp ER6 and felt perfectly comfortable and confident on it. |
| Travis Bickle wrote: | I kinda feel like I'm being patronised "oooh no you mustn't get anything too powerful, you won't be able to handle it" almost like there's a rite of passage one must undergo (like riding a 600 for 10 years) before one can be allowed on a litre bike LOL |
| Travis Bickle wrote: | Other than exercising a bit of discipline and self control on the right wrist and not taking the bends too quickly, I'm not sure what else there can be to it. But maybe I'm just showing my ignorance here. |
To be absolutely honest with you, yeah, you're in line for an attitude readjustment.
You have just passed your mod 2 - a 30-minute road-ride at legal limits to show you're not a hazard on the road. You have no racing experience.
This means that an experienced rider on a 1970s CB350 could embarrass you even if you were riding a Kawa H2. Our roads are not straight American roads. Any fool can wind it open but we have REAL bends, gravel, grease, autumn leaves, oncoming traffic, etc. A little humility might be in order. Try a group ride or IAM. Could you hang with me on my boring old 600? Doubt it tbh. I studied and improved with a huge amount of effort, research and practice, and I'm still only just above average, probably, and that's because I keep it up in the winter.
Sorry but anyone can buy something, but in these days of GoPro etc. you can be asked to prove it if you're such a hotshot. Frankly I think a bit more humility is in order. |
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| Posted: 04:41 - 11 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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I'd also like to add that I think my preferred type of bike would be an adventure style with lots of torque. I'm only looking at sports tourers because they're coming up cheaper... And if you can get 180bhp for under £3,000 why the hell not???!!!
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| Posted: 05:49 - 11 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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Because I'm really sad, nerdy and geeky and can't make a decision for myself without someone else telling me what to do or, even better, a computer/spreadsheet telling me what to do with numbers that I can't argue with... I made a spreadsheet of all the bikes I'm interested in (basically all the adventure bikes) using a list of bikes available on the MCN reviews website, including power, torque and weight, then added weight including rider (assuming a rider weight of 150kg which is more than my weight now and hoping to lose weight anyway so gonna favour bikes with more power/torque over lighter ones) and then power to weight including rider ratio and torque to weight including rider ratio. Sorted in order of most torque to weight ratio at the top and proceeded to check prices going down the list starting at the top.
2005 BMW R1200GS with 97,306 miles on the clock coming up at £2,995. I know that's high mileage but does that sound too good to be true?
Also Honda XL1000V Varadero coming up at under £2,000 and just over. Thoughts anyone?
These bikes being similar displacement to the bikes I mentioned before but about half the power output LOL
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| Posted: 07:50 - 11 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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Sorry Pal, but if it's adventure bikes you like the look of, riding position of and features of, then you should go out and test ride a few, to confirm that feeling/hunch or preference. Assuming you find them as comfortable and ideal as you think you will, then at least you have narrowed down and focused your bike search on a shortlist of criteria meeting machines.
Your reasoning for buying a ZZR 1400 with the above in mind is ridiculous and saying well Ive considered X bike just because it's 197bhp for £3000 as if you're somehow getting more or better bike for your money, smacks of both immaturity, and of someone who hasn't been riding over 6months already. In that time and mileage since passing your test you should have a pretty good idea of what your YBR replacement needs to have that you don't have now, and also what kind of style of bike you like, and what kind of riding your likely to do.
The ZZR14 or equivalent IMO is a terrible town bike, daft and uncomfortable for commuting, and 1400cc is going to drink fuel just bimbling around from the size of the engine. These bikes have a fairly long stretched out riding position and are heavy on the wrists at town traffic speeds. IMO the reason they exist is to smash out crossing European countries in a few hours two up, with soft luggage and are probably the most comfortable thing for two up tucked in 130mph+ travelling for several hours.
Also you talk about 180bhp like it's an important target for your next bike to have, yet I don't hear you mention weight? Weight has more bearing on how a bike feels to ride and it's character than power alone does. There's a whole world of difference in how a 30-40bhp/100kg bike rides, compared to a 200bhp/230kg bike. |
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| Posted: 08:20 - 11 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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| stevo as b4 wrote: | Sorry Pal, but if it's adventure bikes you like the look of, riding position of and features of, then you should go out and test ride a few, to confirm that feeling/hunch or preference. Assuming you find them as comfortable and ideal as you think you will, then at least you have narrowed down and focused your bike search on a shortlist of criteria meeting machines.
Your reasoning for buying a ZZR 1400 with the above in mind is ridiculous and saying well Ive considered X bike just because it's 197bhp for £3000 as if you're somehow getting more or better bike for your money, smacks of both immaturity, and of someone who hasn't been riding over 6months already. In that time and mileage since passing your test you should have a pretty good idea of what your YBR replacement needs to have that you don't have now, and also what kind of style of bike you like, and what kind of riding your likely to do.
The ZZR14 or equivalent IMO is a terrible town bike, daft and uncomfortable for commuting, and 1400cc is going to drink fuel just bimbling around from the size of the engine. These bikes have a fairly long stretched out riding position and are heavy on the wrists at town traffic speeds. IMO the reason they exist is to smash out crossing European countries in a few hours two up, with soft luggage and are probably the most comfortable thing for two up tucked in 130mph+ travelling for several hours.
Also you talk about 180bhp like it's an important target for your next bike to have, yet I don't hear you mention weight? Weight has more bearing on how a bike feels to ride and it's character than power alone does. There's a whole world of difference in how a 30-40bhp/100kg bike rides, compared to a 200bhp/230kg bike. |
Thanks again for your helpful words. You're right I should obviously test ride some bikes first, and I wouldn't rush into buying something without test riding it first. I'm just conscious of going out there and test riding a load of bikes and wasting a whole bunch of peoples' time just because I don't know what bike, or what type of bike I want.
So far this is my criteria (in order of most importance at the top:
1) Be comfortable (for both a motorway run of at least 2 hours AND through extended town driving)
2) Have plenty of torque for lazy (my instructor used to call it posh) overtaking rather than screaming the bollocks off it
3) Be nimble enough to have some fun in the corners
4) Be nimble enough to effectively filter through rush hour traffic
Fuel economy isn't really going to bother me, my Audi gets 20mpg if I drive like a granddad, 12mpg on average and 8mpg when I'm having fun in it. Even a ZZR14000 will get 35mpg right?
As I've said I'm leaning towards an adventure bike but the sports tourers just seem more in abundance and the prices are more keen.
Criteria point number 1 even without having ridden one I think it's safe to say that rules out a sports bike. I would have thought a sports tourer would have been a comfortable bike to ride but from what you've just said above that's not necessarily the case especially at lower speeds / town driving? I've learned yet another useful piece of information which proves this discussion is educating me which was after all the whole point of posting it in the first place.
Criteria point number 2 probably rules out anything under 800cc?
Criteria points number 3 & 4 probably rule out a proper tourer?
What am I left with? As far as I could see before your last post either a sports tourer or an adventure but now looking at ruling a sports tourer out now too.
Now I never said 180bhp was a target I was just kinda thinking if you can have a more powerful bike for the same amount of money why the hell not? And yeah, that probably is an immature view to have! I think that's the attitude that landed me with a 6.0 litre car that only does 12mpg that I'm now looking to get rid of because of that very reason LOL
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| Posted: 08:46 - 11 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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Oh yeah how could I forget the most important criteria way above the others? Need a bike that can pull monster wheelies. How's that for maturity???!!!  
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| Posted: 09:43 - 11 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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| Posted: 09:53 - 11 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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| Travis Bickle |
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Travis Bickle
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Joined: 06 Jan 2019
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| Posted: 10:44 - 11 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 5 years, 99 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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