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New thoughts on tax avoidance and low tax

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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 06:14 - 18 Feb 2019    Post subject: New thoughts on tax avoidance and low tax Reply with quote

It occurred to me today that certain tax evading companies across the world are nothing but a burden and a drain on their host countries.

I can understand favourable tax measures for companies and industries that are in high requirement. But entities like Starbucks offer nothing that the UK population needs. They make coffee, FFS. They simply take a profit, send it back to their shareholders, and that's it. It's a cafe company, no major western nation is in dire need of more cafes.

I don't understand why such unimportant enterprises are given such an easy deal, allowed to engage in aggressive tax avoidance and siphoning as much as possible out of their host economy.

What I'm wondering is, in the hypothetical scenario where a nation banned non-vital foreign companies like Starbucks and instead promoted homegrown chains, meaning a whole lot more of the profits circulated back into the national economy (regardless of whether it ends up with shareholders, as tax or whatever else), would things be better, worse or the same? Is it viable, and how could it be achieved?
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Sister Sledge
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PostPosted: 08:51 - 18 Feb 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure about what you're asking but what does annoy me is the charity shops we see in the UK.
They're given favourite treatment and ordinary second hand shops cannot compete like that. Also, to add insult to injury the likes of Sue Ryder shops sell a whole heap of brand new goods mixed in with donated goods. Sure there's charitable aid but just look at the true figures for where the money goes. Look how they employ directors on waged accounts, managers too.
(rant mode activated) So certain figures in UK life claim to help by putting their names to a good cause? Add to that greed. Drag them onto the company board (because charities are companies) and you'll spot some horribly greedy people with their fingers in so many pies that they could never offer any help to a company whatsoever..
If someone truly believed in a good cause then they'd do it for free or for very little money.
I refuse to shop in those chains of charity shops. I do shop in community charity shops where locals donate goods and volunteers sell on with the money going directly back into that community.

Sorry for the hijack. My comment has nowt to do with the original but today is Monday and I'm angry.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 11:06 - 18 Feb 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Governments could close tax loopholes if they wanted to.

The question is why don't they?

Maybe they get backhanders or the promise of a seat on the board after they are kicked out of parliament by the great unwashed.

Or maybe they get free coffee. Rolling Eyes
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Skudd
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PostPosted: 11:31 - 18 Feb 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand wanting to pay the least amount of tax possible, but there are so many ways to reduce your tax it is open to abuse. Perhaps if it was simple, everyone no matter how much the same paid 20% tax, if you only earned £100 you would pay £20 if you earned £1000 you would pay £200, same way with companies. If you have a workforce in this country you pay tax on this country. So simple.
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 12:43 - 18 Feb 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 CPT wrote:
Many of the tax loopholes which rob the UK are created and made possible by the EU, such as the Double Irish and Dutch Sandwich. We'll soon be out of the EU and can do more to stop these.

The Double Irish loophole is already closed to new firms, but still open to existing firms until the end of next year. It was great for saving the Irish economy at the expense, mainly of the UK economy.

Facebook.ie, Google Ireland... year right.. Dell Ireland.


These rackets are perfectly possible without the EU so please try again.
After all Apple have been accused quite rightly of keeping cash reserves overseas so they don't have to pay tax when they bring it into the USA. I'm pretty sure the USA isn't part of the EU but perhaps you can confirm that for me? Of course confirming it would mean this is a worldwide problem not one specific to those fiends in the EU that you so enjoy vilifying.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 15:37 - 18 Feb 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg got really upset when I posted this before: The Spider's Web: Britain's Second Empire (Documentary). I don't agree with all their points, I thought the whole offshore thing came about because Britain didn't want to be financially responsible for colonies anymore, but like with all these things look at the evidence and form your own conclusions.
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 18:57 - 18 Feb 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 CPT wrote:
You're purely concentrating on US lost revenue on goods and services provided in Europe, conveniently ignoring the one we should be bothered about, lost UK tax revenue for goods and services provided here.


No I'm not.

mpd72 CPT wrote:
The only reason Google, Facefart and Starbucks can use Ireland as a pretend base and trade in the UK, is because we're both in the EU and both in the single market, which Ireland abused with low corporation tax to get themselves out of recession knowing EU rules would attract firms trading in the UK there, to pay them tax, not us.


No it's because every country in the world sets its own tax rate and in some cases this has been deemed ilegal state subsidy by the EU.

mpd72 CPT wrote:
If we were not in the EU and single market, neither the Double Irish or Dutch sandwich would be possible in the UK.
Sorry, but that's a fact. EU rules make it possible for US firms to avoid paying proper UK tax.


No, WTO trade and taxation rules do that to stop double taxation so no not a fact.
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Grubscrew
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PostPosted: 20:13 - 18 Feb 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I see it the laws are in place, the big corporations follow the rules...by a fine thread, but they follow them and pay as little tax as is possible by employing expensive tax lawyers to use every rule in the book but knowing how to exploit the laws for the corporations gain.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 20:35 - 18 Feb 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grubscrew wrote:
As I see it the laws are in place, the big corporations follow the rules...by a fine thread, but they follow them and pay as little tax as is possible by employing expensive tax lawyers to use every rule in the book but knowing how to exploit the laws for the corporations gain.

What would happen if everyone did it?
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 22:09 - 18 Feb 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
Governments could close tax loopholes if they wanted to.

The question is why don't they?

Maybe they get backhanders or the promise of a seat on the board after they are kicked out of parliament by the great unwashed.

Or maybe they get free coffee. Rolling Eyes


British government cannot close loopholes that exist at European level.

One option might be to apply tax to loan repayments, intellectual property rights and so on where the company is closely linked to another (e.g Google to Alphabet). Major tax reform is required for the digital economy too. Google in that case AFAIK only has a marketing department in the UK so effectively most of its sales in the UK will be untaxed here. They say:
Revenue: £5bn
Profit: £200m
Tax: £40m
That's right, only 4% profit Laughing well after they shift most of the money offshore anyway. For digital companies it probably makes more sense to tax revenue than profits.
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 23:26 - 18 Feb 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 CPT wrote:


The EU already has some control over other countries tax, including our minimum allowed VAT level. It is also removing the veto so it can have full control over taxation in the EU.

Fact.


What's the minimum VAT allowed then? And why aren't all EU countries setting the VAT at the same level?
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 05:23 - 19 Feb 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jewlio Rides Again LLB wrote:
mpd72 CPT wrote:


The EU already has some control over other countries tax, including our minimum allowed VAT level. It is also removing the veto so it can have full control over taxation in the EU.

Fact.


What's the minimum VAT allowed then? And why aren't all EU countries setting the VAT at the same level?


I thought they had to in the EU. We, as in UK, have been getting shit off the EU because boats here are allowed to run on red diesel. The EU has said we have to run boats on standard diesel with vat or it's unfair.

Unfair to who? I'm not going to take my narrowboat over to France anytime soon. Twats.
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 08:52 - 19 Feb 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Germany, France and Holland all have different VAT rates.
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Monkeywrenche...
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PostPosted: 10:27 - 19 Feb 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jewlio Rides Again LLB wrote:


What's the minimum VAT allowed then? And why aren't all EU countries setting the VAT at the same level?


15% with 2 reduced rates allowable no lower than 5%
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bhinso
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PostPosted: 15:28 - 19 Feb 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
What would happen if everyone did it?


Wouldn't happen because plebs can't afford the lawyers, or don't earn enough to make it worth their while.
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Robby
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PostPosted: 16:39 - 19 Feb 2019    Post subject: Re: New thoughts on tax avoidance and low tax Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
What I'm wondering is, in the hypothetical scenario where a nation banned non-vital foreign companies like Starbucks and instead promoted homegrown chains, meaning a whole lot more of the profits circulated back into the national economy (regardless of whether it ends up with shareholders, as tax or whatever else), would things be better, worse or the same? Is it viable, and how could it be achieved?


Companies will avoid paying taxes where possible. Big companies have more money to spend on ways of avoiding tax.
So in your scenario, where it looks like we're replacing Starbucks with a hypothetical British equivalent, the new company will do just the same thing. You give it that kind of money and market share, and it will find new ways to avoid paying tax.

The reason they get away with it is because they're doing nothing illegal, although it is unethical. You're also wrong in your initial premise that they do nothing important. Whilst they don't provide any kind of critical service, people like starbucks coffee. One important factor for a lot of people when choosing a job is the distance to the nearest coffee shop of their choice.

They also employ an awful lot of people, and are largely responsible for making "barista" a profession, which means people who make coffee can get paid more than 20 years ago. Higher pay means higher income tax.

All in all, they get away with, as do the other big tax avoiders, because the overall cost and impact of changing the system isn't worth it.

As for other countries, it is worth mentioning that the big coffee chain in Canada is Tim Horton's, a Canadian company. A big part of the reason they're big is that Canadians like to buy local. A big part of the reason that Starbucks is so popular here is that British people like to buy popular brands. Changing that culture wouldn't be easy, but you would need to start with having some British brands worth buying.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 16:42 - 19 Feb 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

bhinso wrote:
M.C wrote:
What would happen if everyone did it?


Wouldn't happen because plebs can't afford the lawyers, or don't earn enough to make it worth their while.

That's my point Smile If everyone could do it they'd shut that shit down immediately, because only a select few can they let it go on.
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bhinso
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PostPosted: 16:49 - 19 Feb 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
because only a select few can they let it go on.


...and don't forget the bribes.
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 19:12 - 19 Feb 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 CPT wrote:
The EU sets a minimum allowed standard VAT rate, currently at 15%.

No member state can charge lower as a standard rate. So they do already, as I said by Cocklio did his usual ignorant yapping over, have some control over taxation of member states.
With the removing of the veto, soon they'll have a lot more control over each member state.


So your'e saying the EU doesn't have full control at present so it's not their fault but they soon will have full control so will be able to close the loop holes? Why are you arguing for the EU?
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 22:58 - 19 Feb 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never said that the EU had no control over it. I asked you


What's the minimum VAT allowed then? And why aren't all EU countries setting the VAT at the same level?

Perhaps if you had spent time at school actually learning to read, you would have figured that out.

So, care to try again? Why aren't all EU countries setting the VAT at the same level?
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