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Jihadi bride Shamima Begum - not coming home

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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 18:09 - 16 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Polarbear wrote:

Shamim a Begum can return to UK to fight citizenship, Court of Appeal rules

If they're going to let her back she's already won. Might as well spare the taxpayer's money and not bother taking her to court, she won't be leaving again whatever happens. I wouldn't care except I doubt this country will be seen by her or supporters as anything but infidel and weak. Don't expect gratitude.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 12:03 - 20 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think there are a fair few grey areas for this, and it'll make an interesting case study for law students in future.

- It's wrong to bring her back because she joined an enemy organisation.

- It's right to bring her back because she's a British national; our country made her so our country is obligated to deal with her.

Which side is correct? Write a 3000 word essay supporting your argument. Late submissions will have marks capped at 70%.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 12:35 - 20 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:


Which side is correct? Write a 3000 word essay supporting your argument. Late submissions will have marks capped at 70%.


And who is going to mark the papers, and by what standards?
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Diggs
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PostPosted: 12:55 - 20 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
The other matter to consider is whether she left the UK as a child and was therefore unable to see the bigger picture, so should be allowed back on humanitarian grounds.

This all comes back to her early interviews, where she showed no remorse for the deeds of ISIS - particularly the Manchester Arena bombing. Had she bowed her head and shed some tears back then, we wouldn't be having this discussion now. She would be on a checkout scanning frozen peas and sanitary towels as we speak, and we would be none the wiser. She didn't understand the PR...
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 15:18 - 20 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Diggs wrote:
The other matter to consider is whether she left the UK as a child and was therefore unable to see the bigger picture, so should be allowed back on humanitarian grounds.

This all comes back to her early interviews, where she showed no remorse for the deeds of ISIS - particularly the Manchester Arena bombing. Had she bowed her head and shed some tears back then, we wouldn't be having this discussion now. She would be on a checkout scanning frozen peas and sanitary towels as we speak, and we would be none the wiser. She didn't understand the PR...


This statement I don't agree with at all. At 15 you know right and wrong. To go get on a plane, fly to Turkey, get across the border and join Isis is not something you decide to do while drinking a bottle of white lightening down the local park. It takes a lot of planning and outright lying to parents and friends which in my view is not something that comes easily to most 'kids'.

Also, we have had many people saying we should allow kids to vote, fine but if they were mature enough to be given the vote they are mature enough to make lifes decisions.

I was at sea on a ship at 15. And no, it was not around the same time as boys were sent up chimneys, I'm not that old. Rolling Eyes I made that choice and I'm sure I knew exactly what I was doing. I sincere believe those 3 girls absolutely knew what they were up to.

But, in the end she will be back here and we will never know what she got up to. She could have put the gun to the heads of prisoners and blown their brains out or she could have help look after them. Guess which her defence team will promulgate.
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Diggs
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PostPosted: 17:03 - 20 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Polarbear wrote:


I was at sea on a ship at 15.



...and you haven't done a squeaky fart since, I'll wager Laughing Laughing Laughing
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bhinso
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PostPosted: 21:24 - 20 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Polarbear wrote:


This statement I don't agree with at all. At 15 you know right and wrong.


Exactly, the prime example being the 15 year old Climate Change expert Greta.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 22:10 - 20 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Diggs wrote:
Polarbear wrote:


I was at sea on a ship at 15.



...and you haven't done a squeaky fart since, I'll wager Laughing Laughing Laughing


I was a very popular young man. I must have been I got lots of hugs off the black gang. Angelic
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 22:49 - 20 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
bhinso wrote:
Exactly, the prime example being the 15 year old Climate Change expert Greta.


At least with the Isis traitor you know someone's slung one up there.

I don't think it was intentional but Count Dankula's recent video on the Jamie Bulger killers is very relevant:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOAuMATiRA0

This is what we can expect from the moment she gets off the plane. Secret identities, safe houses, blanket global injunctions. Millions and millions and millions of tax payers' money will be wasted on this traitor from now until the day she dies... and probably beyond, if she has kids. Still, she's not had a good track record there so maybe we'll get lucky.
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Diggs
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PostPosted: 08:37 - 21 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
One could argue that this is a down-side of us being a sophisticated country with an equitable legal system... We as citizens all enjoy the benefits i.e. civil rights, protection of the law etc which works for us in the vast majority of cases. Occasionally however this works against us when someone we don't like enjoys those benefits also.

If she does come back to face trial and is convicted of a terrorism-related offence, she will have to serve her time in a UK prison because she is a hot-potato and no other country will have her - we need to accept this and get on with it. If she isn't convicted and has her passport returned which is a distinct possibility, she will walk out of the courtroom a 'free' woman. Other than the benefits we are all entitled to if we can't work, I don't see her getting any other support from the State. I imagine she will be tracked to a small flat somewhere where she will live a miserable existence until she either goes mad and ends up back in prison, gets committed or bins herself...

I don't see her as a terrorist mastermind, more a deluded, sad, damaged individual who's life-chances have gone.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 09:33 - 21 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
I understand your point of view even if I don't agree with it.

We will never know what she did. There won't be any witnesses so she will walk, probably with a suspended sentence for being a member of a banned organisation.

The thing is she was a traitor. I know it's fashionable to mock your country nowadays and individuals rights now trump country's rights but she may have been responsible directly for British soldiers being killed. She certainly supported the idea of them being killed and assisted those who indulged in a bit of ethnic cleansing and slavery.

So a slap on the wrists and off you go little girl, it wasn't really your fault.

Yes, I'm angry. No one really gives a toss when our soldiers are killed or mutilated but people are falling over backwards to help this girl. I wouldn't mind so much if it was guaranteed she would get a decent sentence for her crimes but we all know she won't.

Signed Mr. Angry Gammon from white privileged Buckinghamshire.
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Diggs
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PostPosted: 09:52 - 21 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
We have two options - put her on trial as a UK citizen, or leave her there. I'd rather see her convicted and put in prison than free to engage in further acts of terrorism.

The problem comes if we do try her and she isn't found guilty because she will get her passport back and be free to wander around Bethnal Green spitting feathers and offering her poon to the local mujahadin in exchange for cuddles and attention.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 09:54 - 21 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Polarbear wrote:
off you go little girl, it wasn't really your fault.

What if she was groomed and then exploited?
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arry
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PostPosted: 09:56 - 21 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Easy-X wrote:

At least with the Isis traitor you know someone's slung one up there.

I don't think it was intentional but Count Dankula's recent video on the Jamie Bulger killers is very relevant:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOAuMATiRA0

This is what we can expect from the moment she gets off the plane. Secret identities, safe houses, blanket global injunctions. Millions and millions and millions of tax payers' money will be wasted on this traitor from now until the day she dies... and probably beyond, if she has kids. Still, she's not had a good track record there so maybe we'll get lucky.


It is truly insane what went into - and continues to go into - keeping a murdering child porn possessing mentalist 'safe' and how it is that he's not just been kept inside is a good example of how indeterminate sentences do nothing for anyone. Hello Mr Judge yes I'm feeling so much better these days I've barely thought about conducting sexual activities with a minor murdering him and leaving his body to get cut into bits on a railway track, so can I go now? Cracking, thanks Chief Rolling Eyes

I must say I do tend to see the Traitor as Diggs describes rather than a fully competent and evil calculating murderer. But I'm compelled towards Polarbear's views because - well, frankly - fuck her. Fuck Venables too. Serve your time, get released and all bets should be off.
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Diggs
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PostPosted: 10:12 - 21 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Polarbear wrote:
...people are falling over backwards to help this girl.


Are they though? The Government doesn't want her back and will be appealing the decision of the Court of Appeal. The family don't seem that bothered either or they would have collected her by now, and neither does the wider Muslim community. The only people who support her are the Solicitor (who is racking up paid hours...) and silly Guardian columnists.

The decision of the Court of Appeal to let her be tried in the UK was made on legal rather than humanitarian grounds.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 10:17 - 21 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ste wrote:
Polarbear wrote:
off you go little girl, it wasn't really your fault.

What if she was groomed and then exploited?


Someone with more knowledge than me would have to give a definitive answer to that but grooming is a very modern, evocative word associated with sexual exploitation that lifts any guilt from the person being groomed (as it should in those cases). In this case however, is not grooming just a modern label for recruiting a traitor, just like Burgess, Blunt a Philby were at Cambridge. They are still traitors.

I would argue that for 3 friends all to agree to the same momentous life changing decisions they at minimum must have been in agreement with Isis principles to start with. Also t's another easily used and difficult to disproved string to the defence lawyers arsenal.

Anyway, as I said, in the end she is back and will get off. No one is that interested any more.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 10:28 - 21 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Polarbear wrote:
In this case however, is not grooming just a modern label for recruiting a traitor, just like Burgess, Blunt a Philby were at Cambridge. They are still traitors.

I would argue that for 3 friends all to agree to the same momentous life changing decisions they at minimum must have been in agreement with Isis principles to start with. Also t's another easily used and difficult to disproved string to the defence lawyers arsenal.

From one website...

"Grooming is a form of abuse that involves manipulating someone until they’re isolated, dependent, and more vulnerable to exploitation.
Grooming itself is not listed as one of the 10 categories of harm in The Care Act. But many of the types of harm listed in The Care Act, including modern slavery, physical, sexual and financial abuse, can happen as a result of grooming."

If they were groomed then the ISIS principles would have been introduced towards the end of the process after they'd completely gained her trust.
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Diggs
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PostPosted: 10:40 - 21 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Interesting that you compare Ms Begum to the Cambridge Five. On the one hand you have a girl of 15 with limited intelligence, zero life experience and a desire for a husband, and on the other a bunch of upper-class, very intelligent English homosexuals.

They couldn't be further apart in terms of ability to think through the implications of their actions. There is one common denominator however, and that is the desire for foreign cock!
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 10:54 - 21 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ste wrote:
Polarbear wrote:
In this case however, is not grooming just a modern label for recruiting a traitor, just like Burgess, Blunt a Philby were at Cambridge. They are still traitors.

I would argue that for 3 friends all to agree to the same momentous life changing decisions they at minimum must have been in agreement with Isis principles to start with. Also t's another easily used and difficult to disproved string to the defence lawyers arsenal.

From one website...

"Grooming is a form of abuse that involves manipulating someone until they’re isolated, dependent, and more vulnerable to exploitation.
Grooming itself is not listed as one of the 10 categories of harm in The Care Act. But many of the types of harm listed in The Care Act, including modern slavery, physical, sexual and financial abuse, can happen as a result of grooming."

If they were groomed then the ISIS principles would have been introduced towards the end of the process after they'd completely gained her trust.


As I said, I'm no expert but the first sentence...Grooming is a form of abuse that involves manipulating someone until they’re isolated, dependent, and more vulnerable to exploitation.

While I can see how that works in vulnerable people, open to suggestion from desperation, it doesn't ring true about this case. I have seen nothing to say they were vulnerable. They weren't isolated from support, from loving? families.

It's a bit like all the modern day labelling isn't it. Yes, she/they could have been, it's an easier way to explain 3 girls going off the rails rather than blaming their upbringing and families political and religious views. Rolling Eyes

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/jihadi-schoolgirl-s-father-marched-at-flag-burning-rally-anjem-choudary-10138591.html
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Diggs
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PostPosted: 11:03 - 21 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
One could then argue that the anti-western brainwashing began at an early age, before she had ever heard of ISIS.

All ammunition for the defence...

I am playing devil's advocate here, excuse the poor legal pun...
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 11:33 - 21 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
If we're going to mention grooming I'll just give you one word:

Rotherham
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Diggs
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PostPosted: 11:52 - 21 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Easy-X wrote:
If we're going to mention grooming I'll just give you one word:

Rotherham


Slightly different thing though. Those girls were groomed to think giving sexual favours to strangers was/is acceptable. Ms Begum was groomed to think that she would be marrying a hero plus assisting in the fight against the kaffir. One has glamour whereas the other has Coke, crisps and a bit of weed...
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Diggs
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PostPosted: 13:06 - 21 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mind, she doesn't help herself when she comes out with statements like

"I am willing to change"

This tells us is that she still believes the nonsense, and that she uses Prince Andrew's PR team Laughing
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 14:34 - 21 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Diggs wrote:
Mind, she doesn't help herself when she comes out with statements like

"I am willing to change"

This tells us is that she still believes the nonsense, and that she uses Prince Andrew's PR team Laughing


More like 'I can fool you into thinking I have changed'. But it doesn't matter. She's a woman. She's lost 3 kids. She was groomed, she never meant to hurt anyone. She just wanted to protect her religious countrymen and worship Allah. etc. etc.

She' wants to come home because Isis lost. She didn't want to come home before that. She only wants to come home now because she is in a shithole prison camp that is a damn site worse than her parents house in London, or even a women's open prison in Infidel UK. F/all to do with remorse.
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arry
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PostPosted: 14:44 - 21 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
And when she goes off in the street calling for Alan's Snackbar, it'll be because of the UK's institutionally racist policies against her.
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