ULEZ Loophole

[Old Sod]

MAG are getting grumpy:

https://wiki.mag-uk.org/images/9/97/20190301163936590.pdf
https://wiki.mag-uk.org/images/e/eb/20190426133423627.pdf

Such organisations can be slated, but if someone doesn't speak out, we all get shat upon that much easier - and more widespread.

[Bhud]

[Old Sod]

Quite so, but if starting with legal accusations the response will be stonewalled. Best to begin friendly with legal advice, then move on from there. If they openly play their hand towards TfL with what comes next, then TfL will have an advantage. As to how long any such deliberations take - how long is a piece of string?

It's something, and that's better than nothing. Though my copy of 'The Road' is largely skimmed, and the first journal that sees the inside of my bin. I don't do road racing; Continental touring; partying, or greatly interested in Mutch's meanderings.

[Bhud]

I've got a little more information about the emissions test in Bow.

They stress that each bike is individual because emissions are affected by how the bike was ridden over its life. I'm not in a position to evaluate how valid the science behind that claim is, but obviously at £175 a shot, it's important that every bike is highly individual and not allowed to benefit from a group exemption for a particular make, year and model. OK WHATEVER business is business.

The test is for 3km on a roller dyno.

During the test they test at many different speeds: "low" speed, "cruising" speed and "high speed" and lots of points in between.

They also test at different load resistances.

At one point in the test they take the bike up to 130 km/h. That's one of their required testing points. This is 81mph, a speed 11mph in excess of the national speed limit, for reasons unknown.

It has been stated here a few times that they would help and try and get your bike through. But different load resistances at all speeds up to 81 mph doesn't sound a lot like help to be honest. Surprised so many bikes are getting through.

[Old Sod]

That's interesting Bhud. I wonder how scooters and mopeds will fare doing 81mph on a dyno!! They'll be shovelling up the pieces . . .

[Bhud]

To be honest, I am cynical about things where money is involved.

The graph provided by that FJR bloke seems to be a relevant point.

This is what I suspect may have happened:

1) FJR man's friend is in an FJR club with FJR man, and so he's a biker-biker sort of biker, if that makes sense. Probably a really nice and friendly and helpful chap but more agreeable and trusting than most people, who do not belong to any club at all, or even belong to MAG.
2) FJR man's friend proudly shares his dyno cert with FJR man, telling him something like "the tester is a proper fellow biker just like us, he's on the old nudge-nudge-wink-wink, and he wants to help us get our bikes through mate!"
3) The bike garage operating the testing centre is fully aware of this large motorcycle forum, and sees the discussion of the ULEZ test here. He doesn't say anything but notes the printed graph posted by FJR man, and thinks... "shit, it's not supposed to be a run to 140km/h, what was that monkey doing thrashing that guy's FJR while I was on my lunch break!"
4) Bike garage thinks of a damage limitation plan.
5) I call bike garage to get more info which MAG couldn't be bothered to find out.
6) The guy on the phone has been briefed with the damage limitation plan, mistakes running a garage for running a govt department, and tells me, yeah we always run the bike to 130km/h in our emissions test. But this is just spinning a line (a lie) to cover up some bloke arsing about with a stranger's bike (FJR man said his friend absented himself during the test).


You're right about scooters (the majority of two-wheelers). Also, there is a speed limit in this country, and so there is NO justification for testing up to 130km/h in any circumstances.

[yen_powell]

[Old Sod]

Send Scruff round to City Hall and ask for Sadiq . . .

[Andy_Pagin]

[Andy_Pagin]

[Old Sod]

[yen_powell]

[BusterGonads]

[Old Sod]

Sounds like you've watched "Snatch", wherein 'Bricktop' is seen feeding pigs some of his former colleagues/competitors.

Ages ago I got a reply from TfL stating they would respond with a detailed reply within ten days. No such reply has been received, so I've fired off another asking if there is a problem and supplying my original.

The usual ignore him, and he'll go away atttude.

[Bhud]

To be fair, everyone knows exactly where Khan stands. He's the guy who calls Trump a fascist while allowing militant Islamist groups such as Hamas and Hezbollah to march through London. He's against everything, and he's in a strong position to subvert as much as he can in the short time he's in office. He wants to tear down the western world - we get it. He isn't that bright, and so he sees things in simple, zero-sum terms. More of my type of voter, less of yours, sort of thing. This is where he should have been countered. Did anyone even think to try a protest rideout where Muslims and Brazilians (who form the majority of riders in London) show that they are bikers too, even though they were foreigners and/or his coreligionists? No. Certainly not MAG, either.

No, Khan isn't to blame for being Khan. There is no mystery behind that guy. Someone here described him as a 5th column - there's more than an element of truth in that. No, the people I blame for this fiasco are MAG people. Why? Because they've been really busy doing all sorts of things except for the stuff described on their website. Mostly partying and BBQs and bike shows and bad rock cover bands. The same old people turn up year after year to MAG events, which resemble a sort of wannabe club scene now more than actual motorcyclists.

This is a MAG event:

Rich commuter on BMW GS you see every day on the roads? Nowhere to be found.
Middle-of-the-road commuter on mid-size parallel twin you see every day on the roads? No, not there either.
Poor commuter on scooter you see every day on the roads? Nope, not in attendance.
Delivery rider/pizza boy on L-plates you see every day on the roads? Nope.

Harley hardly ridden since it took the old hen to the same event last year? Yep, it's wobbled its terrified rider here again.
Triumph or Ducati or whatever mid-lifer who doesn't ride much? Yep.
People who generally didn't make the cut for MC life? Yes, they're all there. Could regard such people negatively (lifelong wannabes, military Walts, alcoholics, people with issues) or positively (motorcycle enthusiasts, free thinkers, libertarians, bon viveurs) - the whos or whys don't matter, but they aren't ordinary people you meet every day in the street.
Bad rock cover bands? Yes.
"Motorcycle-related stuff": patches, army camouflage stuff, vests, keyrings, bad-taste man-jewelry? All for sale.
Motorcycle related stuff: helmets, safety gear, boots, gloves? Nope, sorry, not for sale here.

etc.

Here's what MAG does:

Write a letter or 2 a year? Yes. That's rider's rights advocacy sorted, then.
Hold 30-odd BBQs a year? Of course!
Raise funds by flipping stickers and burgers? Sure. Half-heartedly the same old guys doing the same thing as last year. They don't even know why they still come, or why they started coming. They don't even enjoy it - it's just what they do now.
Hold protest rideouts where the same old group of 10 to 20 pals meet up and get out of the house (can only be a good thing, right?)
Write periodic vague assurances to members that it has the ear of someone important and "stuff" is going on behind the scenes.

Here's what MAG doesn't do:

Tell its membership who to write to, to complain about xyz.
Suggest which council meetings to attend and express an opinion about proposed road and traffic changes at a local level.
Do things like attend schools and colleges, and promote cycle safety (and by extension imprinting the kids with motorcycle awareness).
Distribute any kind of action plan to its members.
Follow-up on any letters it's written to TfL or other councils.
etc.

I'm not saying don't join MAG or support MAG. What MAG actually does is right up some people's street. I'm saying that if someone is paying subscriptions to MAG, they should definitely get involved with MAG and see what they're about, because if they're just sending these people money based on what they read in a flyer or on a website, then it's going to be a trade descriptions issue.

We desperately need an organisation that does what the MAG website says it does. Khan is not a bright guy or unstoppable by any means. It just needs an organisation that is genuinely interested in motorcycle advocacy and not in other things.

[Old Sod]

Well, that's MAG sorted then.

I joined in 1976. I was a despatch rider, and was for the following 28yrs.
I'm still in MAG, but you are correct about the parties and such - never been to one myself. Nor am I interested in their reports of international cruising, or even new bikes - can't afford one! Maybe I'm not the average member. I don't know, though I've done my bit of Harley riding - one of Fred Warr's rebuilt 45's. But that was when I was in my teens.

On the other hand, I have had direct responses from both Colin Brown and Lembit Opik. Ian Mutch I don't have much time for. A former navigation officer and ex-despatch rider who gets lost, wet, and cold - doesn't add up somehow.

Will I remain a member? Good question.

[Bhud]

The question I wonder about when I look at MAG and all this Motorhead cover/tribute band stuff, leather cowboy hats and vests festooned with patches is, why, when Sadiq Khan pulled his first U-turn and declared his war on bikes after having (at first) wooed MAG, didn't MAG get right up there with TV interviews and rideouts with the likes of these (London) bikers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y06x0bIxXPk

Playing him at his own politically correct game, and putting these guys out there in the media would have been how to swing it. These riders themselves have their own bag of media tricks and savvy. The camera loves them. The leftist media would have lapped them up and put them on morning breakfast or as filler, anywhere. They fit the profile the Guardianista and Sadiq Khan voter loves to see. It was easy for me to think of this idea in 2 minutes, so why didn't MAG?

The only answer I am able to draw when I ask myself this is that they're not in the slightest bit interested in ULEZ and all the rest. They couldn't care less about all that. If you went to a MAG bar and ordered a pint, would you really get 568ml, if you catch my drift... They're in bed with some strange and often misunderstood bedfellows but regular people don't mix with them, and that seems to be the way they like it. Everyone has to get their slice of a pie among that lot? Not sure... But there does seem to be a nexus of organisations like it, including a certain one, registered as a charity, that reports annual accounts in the region of £15K while holding biannual raffles in which they apparently give away 2 brand new £20K Indian motorcycles, and the winners all seem to be surname-less burly chaps in leather vests and their spouses, just like themselves (the people who run the charity). Of course, I doubt that anyone is actually getting a free Indian motorcyle (if a charity gets 2 free bikes worth 20K each, then surely it would make sense to sell them both, even for 19K each, and treble their annual income), but membership dues and raffle ticket sales on the other hand sure go somewhere. Defrauding people at, say, a fiver a shot is likely to catch less limelight than defrauding, say, a bank for a million quid. Plus you've then got your trustworthy burly chaps to come up with the proofs and paperwork you need, should anyone come along with questions. Clever, or at least it would be if people didn't get caught (and they do). That's most likely the deal with a red herring called MAG as well.

[Old Sod]

I have eventually received a reply from TfL, though unsurprisingly it does nothing to answer my questions, merely apologises for the delayed response - and letting me know my original communication from the 16th April 2019 had been passed to their Road User Charging team who deal with Congestion Charge and ULEZ enquiries.

Clearly that went in the bin. But I will persevere.

MAG has issued another press release which states they are disappointed with the Mayor's, and TfL's response, though in it, Lembit Opik states [my emphasis] : -

‘If TfL and the Mayor think this issue will simply go away, they are very much mistaken. We hope that Client Earth and others are following this case with interest. If they are not, they should be. Sadiq and his team are actively attacking proposals and policies that would accelerate the reduction of NO2 on the streets of London. This simply does not fit with the claim that he is leading the way on reducing emissions in the shortest time possible. The only thing his “hard hitting” policy is hitting, is the pockets of the very Londoners he claims to work for. He is letting NO2 off the hook.’

"Letting NO2 off the hook"?? Anyone cooking with gas, or heating with gas distributes NOx into their rooms and from their vents to a level far in excess of road traffic - let alone a few bikes. I smell a PC Rat.

Client Earth is a bunch of 'lawyers' bent on 'saving the planet'. The only thing I see them being interested in is commending Khan's policies.
https://www.clientearth.org/what-we-do/

I'm all for stopping pollution, but this Green Deal business is simply a con., a bandwagon to jump onto resulting in the furtherment of impoverishment - and under the umbrella of being a "charity". Guaranteed to raise my hackles.

£20k Indians? Last raffle I entered was for a nearly new MZ RT125, a bike donated after the death of a member from the MZ Riders Club. Don't generally do raffles. The VMCC did. They went in the bin, and no longer a member. Real Classic sometimes send some - bin.

MAG? I'm disappointed. But nor do I see a bunch of Muslim bikers making any inroads to Khan and his like. He's a useless tin-pot career politician, grabbing at anything to further his cause - make a mark, and make some money.

I watched that You Tube video done outside the Ace, and I'm not impressed with anyone who interjects his sentences with Mashallah, no more than I would be of any Christian doing the same with 'praise God'. They want to have a faith - that's fine, I just don't want it chucked in my face in everyday speech. It's totally unnecessary.

Which in the long run leaves us where? Screwed. You can research and discover evidence that shows certain government policies are not worth the paper they are written on, but attempting to present and fight same requires a court action, and there's only one winner there - the legal profession, and government has them in their pockets. Does that leave us as Outlaws?

Probably. As government will use our taxes to get their way - every time. Who's the real outlaw?

I stood up and lobbied against the NERCA 2006 Act being enacted along with hundreds of other individuals and several big organisations. Where did it get us? Nowhere. Banned.

There are no loopholes - only nooses.

Someone, maybe Leonard Cohen, wrote a line - "Hell is in Hello . . "
Got that right.

[Bhud]

You're absolutely, 100% right.

Just focussing on the road ahead, some positive moves, etc. Thinking about how to fix this situation internally and externally.. The position MAG is in right now is that the arguments have been won, the logic has been shown and proved, but the rational outcome (withdrawing ULEZ for bikes) has been refused by TfL.

Assuming that all the facts and data are in place, and this is just an assumption, as I note that they (MAG) haven't yet published TfL's 8-page response to their 2nd letter, the reasonable, logical step now would be legal action. For sure, it would be a win for a lawyer somewhere, but there is no reason to believe, given the facts and history as presented by MAG, that legal action would be either prohibitively expensive or that it would fail.

First hurdle would be to decide which route to take. Either or both of the following:
1) An application for permission to apply for judicial review of the decision to extend ULEZ to motorcycles, on the basis that the decision was wholly irrational and opposite to logic and reason on the basis of clearly demonstrable scientific evidence and facts.
2) An application to the High Court for an injunction to prevent ULEZ's application to motorcycles, either temporarily pending such time as the application for permission to apply for JR has been decided, or otherwise.

One or the other of these would be a move in the direction MAG is supposed to take to secure the rights for motorcyclists. I'm not up to date, but I don't think either option should cost more than a couple of thousand.

The advantagesof legal preactions of this sort are, they get the ball rolling and the ball is then in TfL's court. Because of judicial oversight, it would force them to actually address the points they have so far ignored (or acknowledged and said, we don't care) in a reasoned and structured manner. It would also make it a really serious priority for them to decide if they really want to defend this through the courts, as it will cost them a lot in resources, and will return this issue to the forefront of media currency.

I would also, separately, advocate for the wholesale reform of MAG.

I suspect they will say that even 3 grand or so is deemed too much money to invest in lawyers. But then I would have to ask, what actually makes MAG any more useful than either you or myself writing letters to TfL? Anyone can write a letter. Does MAG really need 20 or more people on its payroll if all it does is write the occasional letter? The way that organisation is run baffles me - I've reached the limit of my knowledge about it. All I know is that it needs to make a clean break with all its dead weight. I would suggest, as stage 1, have a sort of MAG Alumni or MAG Veteranos group separate from MAG itself - let them organise their parties (but call them "reunions" now) and relive the heavy metal years or whatever. That branch should become a separate and self-funded organisation in its own right. It's a harmless hobby and that's all they want, so why not. But let the actual MAG be completely separate from trying to be an MCC or MC. No parties or events, just everything focussed on MAG's stated mission. Write letters, attend council meetings, inform members and tell them when and where to turn up and who to influence, to secure riders' rights. This is what the main body of MAG's membership expects.

[Old Sod]

From an email from Colin Brown this-afternoon, it seems I may have got the wrong end of the stick over MAG's association - or lack of - with Client Earth. Said firm seems to be hounding Khan over something which could be used in MAG's favour. Not clear right now.

[SirFallalot]

I got this when I asked about my 93' CB400

[Old Sod]

That's about as useless as a chocolate tea pot.

I'm sure other manufacturers would follow suit. Basically - they are not interested.

[Old Sod]

Read MAG's latest press release here:

https://www.mag-uk.org/en/newsdetail/a7410

Note the passages from TfL:

“We cannot therefore meet your request that motorcycles be exempt from ULEZ charges.”

& “I trust this answers all of your queries and I look forward to working with you to prepare motorcyclists for the expansion of the ULEZ in October 2021”.

Working with you??? Extracting the urine more like.

It is said that motorcyclists make up 1% of all road traffic. MAG states their membership makes up 1% of all motorcyclists. So what chance do riders have of combatting this extra tax in a small part of London? TfL know this, we are an insignificant nuisance. Period. But with 4,000 riders at £12.50 a day - yeah they'll have that - kerching!

Where will the next ULEZ appear, because it will be coming, and not just to major towns - villages too. Residents and local councillors will be all too ready to want to breathe cleaner air, but will also be totally ignorant of the facts and consequences.

[Easy-X]

I'm all for "saving the planet" but TFL's attitude only makes sense if you go for ideology over facts
____________________
Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter

[Bhud]

Information and facts are needed so that they can be presented when ULEZ rears its ugly and grotesquely misinformed and prejudicial head in other parts of the country.

MAG, please publish the 6-page TfL letter and your 8-page response to it.