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Suntan Sid |
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Suntan Sid World Chat Champion
Joined: 07 May 2009 Karma :
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Posted: 16:08 - 21 Mar 2019 Post subject: The rise of the electric foot? |
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I have four bikes, a relatively modern one, a mere whippersnapper, having entered the world in 2006, the other three are 50cc 2T 1974, 125cc 4T 1983 and 600cc 4T, 1986.
All of theses bikes, apart from the youngest, have one thing in common, they have kickstarts and no electric starts!
Whatever happened to kickstarters, why are they not a feature of the more basic, smaller cc bikes any more?
Why do single cylinder 125’s, 50cc scooters etc., both 2 and 4 strokes require electric starters these days.
Surely on simple commuter type bikes/scooters it’s just another layer of, unnecessary, complexity, more weight and more to go wrong.
You’ve only got to look in the workshop section to see numerous threads about dead starter motors, knackered sprag clutches etc.
If I remember correctly, way back when, even my GS550ET had a kickstart, mind you it was the first bike I had that had an electric foot.
In fact thinking about it, I can only think of four bikes I’ve owned that have had an electric start, GS550, CBR600, DRZ400E and my current FZ1.
I can sort of understand the bigger, multi cylinder, bikes not having kick starts, but on the smaller stuff it just seems to be solving a problem that never existed in the first place.
Anyone got an insight into this? ____________________ "Everybody needs money, that's why they call it money!" |
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bhinso |
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bhinso World Chat Champion
Joined: 21 Jun 2008 Karma :
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SDFarsight |
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SDFarsight Nova Slayer
Joined: 02 May 2017 Karma :
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Ste |
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Ste Not Work Safe
Joined: 01 Sep 2002 Karma :
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Easy-X |
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Easy-X Super Spammer
Joined: 08 Mar 2019 Karma :
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Posted: 17:00 - 21 Mar 2019 Post subject: |
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TBH I wouldn't trust a bike without a kickstart - even with a starter motor. Push starting is only slightly less annoying than for a car and a jump usually means removing some covering.
Where electric start really shines is pulling up to a set of lights, not being quick enough on the clutch and stalling it. Quick dab of the starter button and no one's any the wiser!
So yes, noob-friendly ____________________ Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter |
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Pete. |
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Pete. Super Spammer
Joined: 22 Aug 2006 Karma :
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Posted: 17:04 - 21 Mar 2019 Post subject: |
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Electric start (or rather, fuel systems) are super-reliable nowadays. Kick starters are not normally needed. ____________________ a.k.a 'Geri'
132.9mph off and walked away. Gear is good, gear is good, gear is very very good |
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Baffler186 |
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Baffler186 World Chat Champion
Joined: 31 May 2013 Karma :
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Easy-X |
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Easy-X Super Spammer
Joined: 08 Mar 2019 Karma :
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Posted: 17:16 - 21 Mar 2019 Post subject: |
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Mmm... but there's still something to be said about a classic like a Land Rover: the only tool you need to fix it is a hammer
I miss my old Mk2 Golf (1.8 carb.) Any time anything goes wrong on my current car The AA / Garage just get a laptop out
Feck, even my faux-cruiser has an OBD2 socket! ____________________ Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter |
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Suntan Sid |
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Suntan Sid World Chat Champion
Joined: 07 May 2009 Karma :
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Posted: 17:43 - 21 Mar 2019 Post subject: |
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Pete. wrote: | Electric start (or rather, fuel systems) are super-reliable nowadays. Kick starters are not normally needed. |
Until the starter motor packs up!
When I first got my DR600, it was a steep learning curve, when it came to starting it, get it over TDC, pull de-compressor lever, give it a good positive kick and pray.
Of course what I didn't know, having only ridden 2 strokes previously, was that under no circumstances must you give it a handful of throttle while you kick it!
You only do this once, because walking around with a limp for the next ten days is a constant reminder.
My 50cc you can push the kick start by hand to start it.
The 125 is a bit awkward, over TDC and it will fire, keeping it going once while it warms up is not so easy.
The 600 single is actually the easiest, always starts first or second kick.
Over TDC the auto de-compressor clicks and you give it one kick!
I quite like the ritual of kick starting, feels like you've actually achieved something! ____________________ "Everybody needs money, that's why they call it money!" |
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SDFarsight |
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SDFarsight Nova Slayer
Joined: 02 May 2017 Karma :
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Pete. |
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Pete. Super Spammer
Joined: 22 Aug 2006 Karma :
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Posted: 18:13 - 21 Mar 2019 Post subject: |
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SDFarsight |
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SDFarsight Nova Slayer
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redeem ouzzer |
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redeem ouzzer World Chat Champion
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SDFarsight |
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SDFarsight Nova Slayer
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Grubscrew |
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Grubscrew Scooby Slapper
Joined: 23 Dec 2018 Karma :
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stevo as b4 |
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stevo as b4 World Chat Champion
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Howling Terror |
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Howling Terror Super Spammer
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Posted: 20:42 - 21 Mar 2019 Post subject: |
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I don't missing having to use a kickstart. Getting an electric start bike was a valued upgrade. I can still bump start it if it's got 10 volts or so to run the ecu and fuel pump.
Batteries have improved.
Survival bike? Yep it'd be gravity fed carbs and a kickstart.
Kickstarts are tres cool though...but that coolness inverts as each kick passes by....then you fiddle with something whilst taking a breather. ____________________ Diabolical homemade music Bandcamp and Soundcloud
Singer songwriter, Artist and allround good bloke Listen to Andrew Susan Johnston here
The Harry Turner Project |
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Suntan Sid |
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Suntan Sid World Chat Champion
Joined: 07 May 2009 Karma :
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Posted: 21:49 - 21 Mar 2019 Post subject: |
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Oi!
It wasn't a rant, just some idle musing! ____________________ "Everybody needs money, that's why they call it money!" |
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Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike tl;dr
Joined: 01 Jun 2010 Karma :
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Posted: 22:35 - 21 Mar 2019 Post subject: |
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Women You dont see many of them perched on the bunny, like you used to either. Girtz iz dowin it for-emselves, or wot the record was. It were a rare woman that could kick an old brit-bike into life. I have known a couple, but they weren't exactly the most lady-like!
And it is a bit of an anomaly, that e-boots started to appear on the multi's and the thumpers were the last to get them. The main resistance to turning over on start-up is compression, and comment on trying to start the big-single had me cuckling in reminiscence, cos on a big single you get all the pressure of compression, maybe what, 150PS, times however many square inches of one big piston, trying to break your ankle or chuck you into orbit!
If you have four 1/4 the capacity cylinders, you still have to overcome the same compression pressure, but its multiplied by a much smaller area, so that much less force on the kickier or e-start. Which is probably why e-starts were first practically employed there, 'cos they could make up for lack of force with extra speed...
Manufacturing wise? Swings and round-a-bouts I think. Yes it does seem more complicated to have an electric motor, and a clutch and a transmission to the crank, b-u-t... with a kicker you have to have much the same by way of transmission from the kicker shaft, and some sort of clutch, even if that's just a one way ratchet for the return of a sector gear. Look at the e-start mechanism on the little Honda Benly motor and you can see the 'value engineering' at work. Simple one way roller on the end of the crank behind the generator rotor, and a chain to the starter motor... job-jobbed... actually fewer bits to assemble than trying to build up a kicker train in the primary drive, and probably not an awful lot of extra weight. Jup needs a beefier battery, but hey ho, you need that for full suit of electrics like indicators anyway... not like the days of old when a 6v mag might have a lighting coil in it so lights only worked when engine running.
Reliability? Hmm... well, I have had to replace more kick-start levers with stripped splines over the years than I ever have e-starters! Probably more swings and round-abouts there, too. Yup, e-starts have habbit of wearing out there brushes... but..... will they do that before the warranty runs out?
From the engineering point of view, an e-start, is at the top of the list a sales feature, that either customers now expect or will pay extra for. Meanwhile, it's something that doesn't add much if any cost to the overall product for it; its reliable 'enough' and it could actually offer cost/complexity savings else-where... I mean, does any-one remember the contortions you had to go through to find and work the kicker on an old full-faired two-stroke? E-start can be stuck wherever is convenient, and so can the button... you just need a bit of extra wire to either from the solenoid!
And women! Once upon a time, Honda Benlys sold to women significantly 'cos of the e-boot, and the convenience that it took away so much of the 'knack' that was needed with a kicker, as well as the contortionism. It made it a much more user-freindly 'product' like a washing-machine, for any-one.... and 'Onda.... CB750K0, pioneering that level of user-freindly, you meet the nicest people, consumerist product design... traded do much of the 'soul' of the bike for that user-freindliness.... but they sold them! Unlike Beeza-Trumpet Rocket-Tridents! ____________________ My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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Tierbirdy |
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Tierbirdy Spanner Monkey
Joined: 25 Jun 2014 Karma :
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ThatDippyTwat |
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ThatDippyTwat World Chat Champion
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha |
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha World Chat Champion
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Robby |
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Robby Dirty Old Man
Joined: 16 May 2002 Karma :
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linuxyeti |
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linuxyeti World Chat Champion
Joined: 06 Oct 2006 Karma :
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Posted: 22:11 - 22 Mar 2019 Post subject: |
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There are still some bikes around with kickstart as an option, however, in reality, they're nothing more than a novelty/decoration, as in the modern efi world, there needs to be enough power in the battery to power the fuel pump etc, so, unless there is some juice in the battery, you won't start a bike on the kickstart, even bump starting it could prove to be difficult.
In those situations, you'd be better off with one of those portable jump start packs, and stick with the electric start. ____________________ Beware what photos you upload, or link to on here, especially if you have family members on them |
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RhynoCZ |
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RhynoCZ Super Spammer
Joined: 09 Mar 2012 Karma :
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Posted: 22:12 - 22 Mar 2019 Post subject: |
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I don't even use the kickstarter on the MZ, I just push start it every time. It's much easier and quicker way to start the engine, especially when it's cold. Also less harmful for the starter gearing.
The only 4 stroke that I ever tried to kick start was a 80's Honda XR 350, or something like that. Twin carburetor, single cylinder, very strong kick back. In the end, I just gave up and push started it.
The decline of kickstarters is quite obvious. An electric starter is a much more convenient and simpler solution. Batteries and starter motors got also small and efficient, there's no need for exhaust valve lifter (or other means of de-compression) and pushing a button is just so easy. I also think that people just don't want to kick start motorcycles anymore, just like they don't want to hand crank the engine of their car. ____________________ '87 Honda XBR 500, '96 Kawasaki ZX7R P1, '90 Honda CB-1, '88 Kawasaki GPz550, MZ 150 ETZ
'95 Mercedes-Benz w202 C200 CGI, '98 Mercedes-Benz w210 E200 Kompressor |
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 5 years, 28 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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