The rise of the electric foot?

[Suntan Sid]

I have four bikes, a relatively modern one, a mere whippersnapper, having entered the world in 2006, the other three are 50cc 2T 1974, 125cc 4T 1983 and 600cc 4T, 1986.
All of theses bikes, apart from the youngest, have one thing in common, they have kickstarts and no electric starts!

Whatever happened to kickstarters, why are they not a feature of the more basic, smaller cc bikes any more?
Why do single cylinder 125’s, 50cc scooters etc., both 2 and 4 strokes require electric starters these days.

Surely on simple commuter type bikes/scooters it’s just another layer of, unnecessary, complexity, more weight and more to go wrong.
You’ve only got to look in the workshop section to see numerous threads about dead starter motors, knackered sprag clutches etc.

If I remember correctly, way back when, even my GS550ET had a kickstart, mind you it was the first bike I had that had an electric foot.
In fact thinking about it, I can only think of four bikes I’ve owned that have had an electric start, GS550, CBR600, DRZ400E and my current FZ1.
I can sort of understand the bigger, multi cylinder, bikes not having kick starts, but on the smaller stuff it just seems to be solving a problem that never existed in the first place.

Anyone got an insight into this?
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[bhinso]

I've wondered this myself.

Fear of litigation? (Someone getting hurt trying to kick start their bike)

Maybe the millennial feet are getting weaker?

Certainly means more to go wrong though.

[SDFarsight]

User-friendlyness. Not that it's hard to use a kickstarter but it's all a bit old-hat. I honestly don't know anyone IRL who has a kickstart bike and they're not all millennials.

Kickstarts do still serve a purpose in modern times; if you're playing charades and want to represent a motorbike- like how software still uses floppy disks to represent 'saving'.

Also kickstarts have an air of determination; you can't be a badass while just pressing a button.
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Riding: 2009 Kawasaki ER6f
Previous: Sym Wolf SB125Ni, 2008 Kawasaki ER6f

[Ste]

Because kidz don't want kickstart levers on their bikes.

[Easy-X]

TBH I wouldn't trust a bike without a kickstart - even with a starter motor. Push starting is only slightly less annoying than for a car and a jump usually means removing some covering.

Where electric start really shines is pulling up to a set of lights, not being quick enough on the clutch and stalling it. Quick dab of the starter button and no one's any the wiser!

So yes, noob-friendly
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Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter

[Pete.]

Electric start (or rather, fuel systems) are super-reliable nowadays. Kick starters are not normally needed.
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a.k.a 'Geri'

132.9mph off and walked away. Gear is good, gear is good, gear is very very good

[Baffler186]

It's all about convenience and comfort, the same (though on a smaller scale) than the car industry. Look at all the tech that cars now have that aren't really necessary, but do make life easier for lots of people:

Electronic (push button) hand brake
Electric windows
tyre pressure sensors

It's all about making mechanical things feel less mechanical for the masses. An off-shoot is that many people like me get used to them and then find that they're very convenient and good to have.
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Current: 2009 SV650 S, 1990 Kawasaki GT550
Previous: 2009 CBF125, 1998 GSF600, 2004 FZ6 Fazer, 1978 CB400a Hondamatic

[Easy-X]

Mmm... but there's still something to be said about a classic like a Land Rover: the only tool you need to fix it is a hammer

I miss my old Mk2 Golf (1.8 carb.) Any time anything goes wrong on my current car The AA / Garage just get a laptop out

Feck, even my faux-cruiser has an OBD2 socket!
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Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter

[Suntan Sid]

[SDFarsight]

[Pete.]

[SDFarsight]

[redeem ouzzer]

I like the novelty of the electric start on my X5 but generally prefer kickstart. Less drag and less weight is always a good thing. Problem is most of these millennial cunts aren’t performance focused like my generation.
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[SDFarsight]

[Grubscrew]

.....likewise with cars of today, you don’t see a starting handle strapped to one. Bikes took a little longer to catch on with the electric start issue, but they have got there in the end.
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FJR1300/CBR1000F

[stevo as b4]

We must emphasise we're talking road bikes here not off road competition machines where the kick starter is still the default even though electric start trials, MX and enduro bikes are getting more popular.

Its all pretty obvious why we have electric starts now, but I'll sympathise with Sid's rant anyway.

As Pete said, electric starts are now very reliable and cheap to make and integrate into every machine from a 50cc moped>. In fact I'd say they've been very important/vital to 50cc mopeds and scooters in that they have prolonged their popularity and even though totally pointless, the kind of rider that buys a twist and go today would be horrified at having to jump on a pedal to start the machine.

Imagine a Millenial with a Vespa PX? They'd not even attempt to try and understand how to start or ride one. People want a push button job at the most, and keyless start etc is all some people have ever known now too.

[Howling Terror]

I don't missing having to use a kickstart. Getting an electric start bike was a valued upgrade. I can still bump start it if it's got 10 volts or so to run the ecu and fuel pump.
Batteries have improved.

Survival bike? Yep it'd be gravity fed carbs and a kickstart.

Kickstarts are tres cool though...but that coolness inverts as each kick passes by....then you fiddle with something whilst taking a breather.
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[Suntan Sid]

Oi!

It wasn't a rant, just some idle musing!
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[Teflon-Mike]

Women You dont see many of them perched on the bunny, like you used to either. Girtz iz dowin it for-emselves, or wot the record was. It were a rare woman that could kick an old brit-bike into life. I have known a couple, but they weren't exactly the most lady-like!

And it is a bit of an anomaly, that e-boots started to appear on the multi's and the thumpers were the last to get them. The main resistance to turning over on start-up is compression, and comment on trying to start the big-single had me cuckling in reminiscence, cos on a big single you get all the pressure of compression, maybe what, 150PS, times however many square inches of one big piston, trying to break your ankle or chuck you into orbit!

If you have four 1/4 the capacity cylinders, you still have to overcome the same compression pressure, but its multiplied by a much smaller area, so that much less force on the kickier or e-start. Which is probably why e-starts were first practically employed there, 'cos they could make up for lack of force with extra speed...

Manufacturing wise? Swings and round-a-bouts I think. Yes it does seem more complicated to have an electric motor, and a clutch and a transmission to the crank, b-u-t... with a kicker you have to have much the same by way of transmission from the kicker shaft, and some sort of clutch, even if that's just a one way ratchet for the return of a sector gear. Look at the e-start mechanism on the little Honda Benly motor and you can see the 'value engineering' at work. Simple one way roller on the end of the crank behind the generator rotor, and a chain to the starter motor... job-jobbed... actually fewer bits to assemble than trying to build up a kicker train in the primary drive, and probably not an awful lot of extra weight. Jup needs a beefier battery, but hey ho, you need that for full suit of electrics like indicators anyway... not like the days of old when a 6v mag might have a lighting coil in it so lights only worked when engine running.

Reliability? Hmm... well, I have had to replace more kick-start levers with stripped splines over the years than I ever have e-starters! Probably more swings and round-abouts there, too. Yup, e-starts have habbit of wearing out there brushes... but..... will they do that before the warranty runs out?

From the engineering point of view, an e-start, is at the top of the list a sales feature, that either customers now expect or will pay extra for. Meanwhile, it's something that doesn't add much if any cost to the overall product for it; its reliable 'enough' and it could actually offer cost/complexity savings else-where... I mean, does any-one remember the contortions you had to go through to find and work the kicker on an old full-faired two-stroke? E-start can be stuck wherever is convenient, and so can the button... you just need a bit of extra wire to either from the solenoid!

And women! Once upon a time, Honda Benlys sold to women significantly 'cos of the e-boot, and the convenience that it took away so much of the 'knack' that was needed with a kicker, as well as the contortionism. It made it a much more user-freindly 'product' like a washing-machine, for any-one.... and 'Onda.... CB750K0, pioneering that level of user-freindly, you meet the nicest people, consumerist product design... traded do much of the 'soul' of the bike for that user-freindliness.... but they sold them! Unlike Beeza-Trumpet Rocket-Tridents!
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[Tierbirdy]

Probably because they're redundant on modern bikes. Same with EFI vs carbs. EFI and electric start are just godsends, light push of a button and the bike starts. No fucking about with choke and kickstarts on a cold morning.

The only bike Ive ever had with a kickstart was a old 1990-something YBR125 which had both electric and kick, and it was shit, most of the time the kick start didnt work.

[ThatDippyTwat]

I have kick on my rat. Which is good, because the startermotor went a couple of months ago, and I still CBA sorting it. Given that she'll kick first time, maybe 2nd if it's icy out, it's not a problem.

I was brought up with kick, and while I've not met anyone recently (that rides) that thinks it's hella weird to be using it, I've also not met anyone phased by a bikes lack of it.
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'98 VFR800 (touring) - '12 VFR800 Crosrunner (Commuting) - '01 KDX220 (Big Green Antisocial Machine)

[trevor saxe-coburg-gotha]

I always used to use the kickstart on my w650. It was soft and easy and I could do it in my flipflops. And iirc it started w/ one kick 95% of the time. My much older crm had a kick too - but honestly, I'm not sure I was quite as fond of that. Left stood for a month it would cause a sweat to break out after repeated fannying.

The interesting thing about that particular bike was that it didn't have a battery, so was a genuine attempt to keep things quite light. That said, I did always think the crm was still a bit heavy - and when I replaced it w/ the klx I thought the 4t, electric start (only) arrangement was a very similar weight. Which is hard to believe, I know.

In any case, kick starts are great in the sense that it feels really satisfying to have the machinery spring into life from this comparatively physical moment of effort. That said, they seem somewhat out of place on liquid cooled bikes.
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[Robby]

In the rare event that modern starter motor break, it's usually worn out bushes. Cheap and easy to fix.

When a kick start breaks, it's the return spring. That's an absolute pain in the arse to change.

I bring this comparison up because modern starter motors are very reliable, as are modern batteries and fuel injection. These days if your bike doesn't start, its probably a flat battery.

[linuxyeti]

There are still some bikes around with kickstart as an option, however, in reality, they're nothing more than a novelty/decoration, as in the modern efi world, there needs to be enough power in the battery to power the fuel pump etc, so, unless there is some juice in the battery, you won't start a bike on the kickstart, even bump starting it could prove to be difficult.

In those situations, you'd be better off with one of those portable jump start packs, and stick with the electric start.
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[RhynoCZ]

I don't even use the kickstarter on the MZ, I just push start it every time. It's much easier and quicker way to start the engine, especially when it's cold. Also less harmful for the starter gearing.

The only 4 stroke that I ever tried to kick start was a 80's Honda XR 350, or something like that. Twin carburetor, single cylinder, very strong kick back. In the end, I just gave up and push started it.

The decline of kickstarters is quite obvious. An electric starter is a much more convenient and simpler solution. Batteries and starter motors got also small and efficient, there's no need for exhaust valve lifter (or other means of de-compression) and pushing a button is just so easy. I also think that people just don't want to kick start motorcycles anymore, just like they don't want to hand crank the engine of their car.
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'87 Honda XBR 500, '96 Kawasaki ZX7R P1, '90 Honda CB-1, '88 Kawasaki GPz550, MZ 150 ETZ
'95 Mercedes-Benz w202 C200 CGI, '98 Mercedes-Benz w210 E200 Kompressor