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Extinction Rebellion or how not to win an argument

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Islander
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PostPosted: 15:28 - 21 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
I can understand the hatred of politicians, but your rabid hatred of scientists is bizarre. When are you going to start with the witch burnings?


Books first. Wink
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 15:56 - 21 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby's an idiot, hence my blocking him. What is this claim of "my rabid hatred of scientists"? Can he not understand plain English?
His head is like a pinball machine: lots of flashing lights, buzzers and bells, but nothing of any substance going on in there.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 16:08 - 21 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be clear: it's not the concept of Climate Change people generally have a problem with it's the inept solutions.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 16:29 - 21 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:
To be clear: it's not the concept of Climate Change people generally have a problem with it's the inept solutions.


Really?

My own experience suggests otherwise on here and in other places as well.

Suggest some solutions then? Remembering that the objective is to prevent tipping points being reached by reducing the amount of CO2 being released into the atmosphere and limiting the rise of the GMST to 1.5c or less...

For clarity, the tipping points are:

Runaway melting of the Greenland ice sheet
Runaway melting of the West Antarctica ice sheet
Changes to the Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation (AMOC) caused by fresh melt water from melting ice sheets
Transitioning of the Amazon from rainforest to savannah
Melting of permafrost and release of methane stored in clathrates
Preventing catastrophic change to the El NiƱo-Southern Oscillation

There can be no brinksmanship on any of the above. Reach a tipping point and you have catastrophic runaway caused by positive feedback mechanisms. Any one of the above can have major effects on one or more of the others.

Off you go.


Last edited by Islander on 18:39 - 21 Jan 2023; edited 1 time in total
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 16:33 - 21 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:
To be clear: it's not the concept of Climate Change people generally have a problem with it's the inept solutions.


And despite what Islander might say, the degree of the problem is far from clear, whereas some of the extreme policies considered to tackle it will obviously have very far-reaching consequences. And that's assuming any of these daft ideas would actually achieve anything substantial according to intention. Why save millions if they have to then live in poverty or worse to do it? Where's the logic in that? It was the same stupidity and narrow-mindedness with the Covid response.

Tbf, I haven't seen Islander come out with extremes of policy ideas - just what I consider to be a bit of blind optimism on the solutions currently touted. I'm with him on pushing research into less polluting forms of energy, and continuing to work to reduce pollution generally. But the politicians all seem rather cynical about it when their actions are considered. Or just plain stupid.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 16:46 - 21 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:
Easy-X wrote:
To be clear: it's not the concept of Climate Change people generally have a problem with it's the inept solutions.


Really?

My own experience suggests otherwise on here and in other places as well.


Perhaps you assign those voices too much importance?
None of us here in this discussion are going to have a great deal of effect on all this as individuals, and no one is persuaded by insult and arrogance - quite the opposite.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 17:07 - 21 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once again, pot, kettle.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 22:07 - 21 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's an interesting little revelation, nothing brand new but still:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/exxon-knew-about-climate-change-almost-40-years-ago/

[url]https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abk0063
[/url]
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2009/jul/01/exxon-mobil-climate-change-sceptics-funding

Yes, I know that's the Grauniad but you'll find the same story in a lot of news articles across the spectrum.

So, even the oil companies knew about climate change as far back as the 1970s. Of course they did the right thing by the world, didn't they?

Did they fuck. They funded the climate change deniers instead.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 22:15 - 21 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:


Perhaps you assign those voices too much importance?
None of us here in this discussion are going to have a great deal of effect on all this as individuals, and no one is persuaded by insult and arrogance - quite the opposite.


I don't really assign them much importance at all. If I can put the record straight then I will. If they still put their dogmatic filters on then frankly, meh.

You're quite right. It's highly unlikely that we'll make any real difference as individuals but if by presenting the data and facts I can change some minds from denial to acceptance then that's more people to add their voices and I consider that objective to be worth the effort. I've shifted a number of people that way and they in turn might shift others.

Of course for the absolute no-hope nutjobs (Donk, Rebel, Doggone, etc) it's a waste of time. Poking fun at them is worth it though. Laughing
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 22:16 - 21 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hardly surprising. It's a re-run of what the tobacco companies did and what Pfizer is doing now with the Covid "vaccines."

With regards to real solutions to Climate Change: declare war on China, reform the Empire and take back India, the Americas and Africa by force. We can then dictate agricultural, industrial and energy generation policies on a scale large enough to make a difference.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 22:21 - 21 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:
Hardly surprising. It's a re-run of what the tobacco companies did and what Pfizer is doing now with the Covid "vaccines."

With regards to real solutions to Climate Change: declare war on China, reform the Empire and take back India, the Americas and Africa by force. We can then dictate agricultural, industrial and energy generation policies on a scale large enough to make a difference.


Oh dear. You started quite well. Then it turned to ordure with the Pfizer comment. It was downhill from there.

So are you saying you have no real idea of solutions we could use to solve the issue? Or that you're just not going to engage seriously.

Back atcha. Laughing
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 23:14 - 21 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Without getting the USA, India, China onside and supressing the development of Africa and South American I would suggest Climate Change will only get much, much worse Sad The sort of shenanigans the Chinese are willing to pull it's pretty much a fait accompli at this point.

And how did you get in the pocket of Pfizer? Even I'd consider selling my soul for that sort of money Smile
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Islander
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PostPosted: 23:35 - 21 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:
Without getting the USA, India, China onside and supressing the development of Africa and South American I would suggest Climate Change will only get much, much worse Sad The sort of shenanigans the Chinese are willing to pull it's pretty much a fait accompli at this point.

And how did you get in the pocket of Pfizer? Even I'd consider selling my soul for that sort of money Smile


The Chinese have set carbon reduction targets including reducing coal fired power stations. Whether they stick to them we'll have to wait and see. The USA is onside for now until they elect another rabid right wing ultra religious nutter of course... Brazil has a sensible president again...

In any case, changes still have to be made by those who will. Now, would you like to stop avoiding the question by playing politics and suggest some actual solutions for mitigating climate change as requested? Laughing

Whatever your opinion of Pfizer as a company there's no denying that the development of mRNA vaccine technology is a game changer for so many preventions and treatments. Theirs was undoubtably the more effective of the various Covid vaccines.
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doggone
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PostPosted: 23:51 - 21 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:


Whatever your opinion of Pfizer as a company there's no denying that the development of mRNA vaccine technology is a game changer for so many preventions and treatments. Theirs was undoubtably the more effective of the various Covid vaccines.


You seem very trusting of a company which has already had to pay out over $2bn for false claims and malpractice with much more pending.
https://www.drugdangers.com/manufacturers/pfizer/
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 00:04 - 22 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:
Now, would you like to stop avoiding the question by playing politics and suggest some actual solutions for mitigating climate change as requested? Laughing


I'm not exactly sure what you want. Any viable solution to tackling Climate Change en masse is dead in the water unless someone somewhere can make enough money to pay the politicians to look the other way. As for "real world" solutions I've already said: cancel the futile 2030 EV edict and continue to improve ICE technology that would benefit not just us but the developing world in the future.

In general money should be focused on research with tangible solutions that offer improvements so useful you'd have to be an idiot not buy in. Going back to EVs: they are being imposed precisely because they're a much worse solution than current EVs.

Personally I'd spend my money on a way to recycle end-of-life solar panels economically.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 00:13 - 22 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:


I'm not exactly sure what you want. Any viable solution to tackling Climate Change en masse is dead in the water unless someone somewhere can make enough money to pay the politicians to look the other way. As for "real world" solutions I've already said: cancel the futile 2030 EV edict and continue to improve ICE technology that would benefit not just us but the developing world in the future.

In general money should be focused on research with tangible solutions that offer improvements so useful you'd have to be an idiot not buy in. Going back to EVs: they are being imposed precisely because they're a much worse solution than current EVs.

Personally I'd spend my money on a way to recycle end-of-life solar panels economically.


So you don't actually have any solutions? Fair enough.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 00:21 - 22 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

doggone wrote:
Islander wrote:


Whatever your opinion of Pfizer as a company there's no denying that the development of mRNA vaccine technology is a game changer for so many preventions and treatments. Theirs was undoubtably the more effective of the various Covid vaccines.


You seem very trusting of a company which has already had to pay out over $2bn for false claims and malpractice with much more pending.
https://www.drugdangers.com/manufacturers/pfizer/


You seem very trusting of an ambulance chaser website looking to drum up business.

You also either don't bother reading what's said or just twist it to suit your own views. Let me refresh your memory as to what I actually said:

Quote:
Whatever your opinion of Pfizer as a company there's no denying that the development of mRNA vaccine technology is a game changer for so many preventions and treatments. Theirs was undoubtably the more effective of the various Covid vaccines"


There are no inaccuracies in that statement whatsoever.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 00:44 - 22 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:
So you don't actually have any ideologically approved solutions?


FTFY
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Islander
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PostPosted: 00:57 - 22 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:
Islander wrote:
So you don't actually have any ideologically approved solutions?


FTFY


So, I try to engage you in a serious discussion about real world problems. First off you avoid answering the questions by playing politics, then you apparently don't have any realistic ideas about possible solutions to mitigate the issue. When I call you on that, you resort to changing my words into frankly, a pathetic snipe.

Disappointing. 0/10
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 01:43 - 22 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

My job is computer programming, my hobby is restoration, repair and servicing of motorcycles and I study psychology. Why you would think me capable of a technical solution to Climate Change? (Hang on! I think I saw a Terraforming device behind the sofa... damn, no it's my Raspberry Pi.)

I offered a general direction of travel: continue the progress of improving ICE technology (more power, less emissions) which you've flatly ignored. I stated my reasons: to pass said improvements onto developing countries which I would reason would not be so quick to replace all their vehicles with EVs and would be grateful of such improvements. Again, ignored.

Sorry, but if you want technical specifications ask a Climatologist! If it all hinges on what I can come up with after 4 cans of cider we really are fucked.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 11:02 - 22 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:
To be clear: it's not the concept of Climate Change people generally have a problem with it's the inept solutions.

People get pissed off at middle class people with seemingly nothing more pressing to do than block roads and glue themselves to shit.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 12:47 - 22 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:

So you don't actually have any solutions? Fair enough.


We have built our civilisation on fossil fuels for getting on for two centuries now. We are totally dependant on them. With the best will in the world, that's not something that can be ripped out and replaced overnight. It's not just the energy systems themselves but our entire infrastructure. And think of all the industrial processes and waste products that will be generated to do it. Net zero by 2030? Laughable. To even try to meet such targets will bring disaster.

I suggest we use nuclear power to power industry, but that means we must make it a priority now, since it takes some years to bring new reactors on line. I don't think we are doing enough here. Meanwhile, we must keep funding the research into clean energy systems, again, taking it seriously, making it a priority. We should also do as Easy suggests, continuing to make our fossil fuel usage less polluting. It may not be the end game, but for now it's what we have, proven.

What we must not do is assume we can just start to rip out all our current energy systems now, before new tech has really established itself into realistically useable replacements. All the renewable systems we talk about; wind, solar, wave...all well and good and they will undoubtedly be a part of whatever we turn to eventually. But we are far from ready to rely on those alone, if we ever will be, and I still need some convincing that will ever be the case. We have to have something that is capable of producing constant energy supplies, where we don't have to worry about days where little is produced. We don't have the energy storage tech for that yet, and frankly, relying on the weather is daft.

It is likely going to be decades before we have what we need to get rid of fossil fuels entirely.

Then there is still the little matter of all the CFCs, lead and God only knows what else we pumped into the atmosphere which will linger for maybe a century or more, continuing to do damage.
Mankind cannot exist without leaving some kind of detrimental footprint on the planet.

In short, work to improve, but at the same time, get real.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 12:55 - 22 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Four decades for the ozone layer to recover fully, apparently.

https://www.unep.org/news-and-stories/press-release/ozone-layer-recovery-track-helping-avoid-global-warming-05degc
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 13:35 - 22 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think we can save the planet and population as we know it.

If the temperature rise isn't due to humans then nothing we do will stop it. If it is due to humans then we will never get it under control while 3/4 of the worlds population want what the other 1/4 have.

China says it will get it's coal fired powerstations offline in 30 years, maybe it will as it has the tecnology and the will to do that but is that soon enough.

India doesn't have the will, the infrastructue or the inclination. It puts billions of tonnes of human waste directly into rivers and oceans. It burns anyhing and everything to create electricity and of it's billion+ people most are more interested in where there next meal is coming from and how to charge their Iphones than saving the human race.

I'm not picking on them for any other reason than they are the bigges pollters with the largest population, If they (and the US) aren't onside nothing will suceed.

We need to control the worlds population, 1 kid then compulsory steralisation or something like that. But it isn't going to work is it. It's a 'human right' Rolling Eyes to have kids and as China showed, it's not an easy thing to enforce even with a powerful state controlling society.

Then we will have to do other unpalatable things. Take the Amazon. Scientists say ff Brazil will not stop logging and deforrestation the Amazon wont beable to act as the CO2 sink it now is. If true there is only one answer, invade and stop them. Yes people will die but the human race might survive. It wont if we wipe out ecologically critical regions.

Don't bother saying pay them to stop, that doesn't work, it never has and never will. Money just dissapears into some random persons pocket as all the charity donations for African projects has shown and everything proceeds as before.

What else? You think the migrants heading to Europe and North America is bad now? Wait untill mass starvation pushes millions into taking the risk of migrating.

But hey, the electric car will sort everything out. Thumbs Up

Yes, I'm pretty cynical about the whole thing.
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 13:43 - 22 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
I don't think we can save the planet and population as we know it.


Definitely not. The entire population is sure to die.
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