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Extinction Rebellion or how not to win an argument

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Islander
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PostPosted: 13:50 - 22 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pete. wrote:
Polarbear wrote:
I don't think we can save the planet and population as we know it.


Definitely not. The entire population is sure to die.


That's the only certainty in the longer term. Thumbs Up

The planet however, will recover and new species will arise.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 14:06 - 22 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pete. wrote:
Polarbear wrote:
I don't think we can save the planet and population as we know it.


Definitely not. The entire population is sure to die.


Islander wrote:
That's the only certainty in the longer term. Thumbs Up



Absolute nonsense. It may be that the planet can't sustain the kind of population it has now, especially if it keeps growing, but the complete end to the human race? Ludicrous. Only if humans decide to do it to themselves.
Populations are falling rapidly worldwide. China, Russia, Europe...all are seeing population collapse where natural procreation is concerned. Disease and other blight does its work elsewhere. Nature has a habit of regulating itself. Do you think you are not part of nature? That you have risen above it (or below, as some seem to think)?
What I think would be stupid is deliberate attempts by us to eradicate large portions of our own species. That would mean that all morals are now null and void, and all you leftie loonies would have to shut up Laughing
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Islander
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PostPosted: 14:09 - 22 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:
Islander wrote:

So you don't actually have any solutions? Fair enough.


We have built our civilisation on fossil fuels for getting on for two centuries now. We are totally dependant on them. With the best will in the world, that's not something that can be ripped out and replaced overnight. It's not just the energy systems themselves but our entire infrastructure. And think of all the industrial processes and waste products that will be generated to do it. Net zero by 2030? Laughable. To even try to meet such targets will bring disaster.

I suggest we use nuclear power to power industry, but that means we must make it a priority now, since it takes some years to bring new reactors on line. I don't think we are doing enough here. Meanwhile, we must keep funding the research into clean energy systems, again, taking it seriously, making it a priority. We should also do as Easy suggests, continuing to make our fossil fuel usage less polluting. It may not be the end game, but for now it's what we have, proven.

What we must not do is assume we can just start to rip out all our current energy systems now, before new tech has really established itself into realistically useable replacements. All the renewable systems we talk about; wind, solar, wave...all well and good and they will undoubtedly be a part of whatever we turn to eventually. But we are far from ready to rely on those alone, if we ever will be, and I still need some convincing that will ever be the case. We have to have something that is capable of producing constant energy supplies, where we don't have to worry about days where little is produced. We don't have the energy storage tech for that yet, and frankly, relying on the weather is daft.

It is likely going to be decades before we have what we need to get rid of fossil fuels entirely.

Then there is still the little matter of all the CFCs, lead and God only knows what else we pumped into the atmosphere which will linger for maybe a century or more, continuing to do damage.
Mankind cannot exist without leaving some kind of detrimental footprint on the planet.

In short, work to improve, but at the same time, get real.


Progress is actually being made. It's still not a good outlook at current rates but it's a lot better than it was 10 years ago.

Spot on with fission based nuclear. That's a medium term solution for baseload. We really do need to start work on operational thorium salt reactors though. They're much safer.

We need to keep going with renewable generation. The key here is a mix of technologies. Tidal generation is predictable and consistent. Solar and wind a bit less so but not entirely. With a mix of technology we can guarantee generation pretty much constantly. Pumped storage technology makes for a good ultra high capacity battery. We need to put some real effort into hydrogen powered vehicles rather than EV or ICE. I've said all this stuff before.

Nobody is suggesting we rush into ripping out old technologies immediately but we should be looking at making them more efficient and less polluting. Developing carbon capture technology is a way forward there. We also need to make domestic and commercial power consumption needs to be more efficient.

Commercial shipping (sorry Polarbear Laughing ) needs a huge kick up the arse. Some of the fuels they use are really bad news. Air transport needs to become more efficient and less polluting. In fact commercial transport generally needs to improve.

It can be done.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 14:18 - 22 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:
Pete. wrote:


Definitely not. The entire population is sure to die.


Islander wrote:
That's the only certainty in the longer term. Thumbs Up



Absolute nonsense. It may be that the planet can't sustain the kind of population it has now, especially if it keeps growing, but the complete end to the human race? Ludicrous. Only if humans decide to do it to themselves.
Populations are falling rapidly worldwide. China, Russia, Europe...all are seeing population collapse where natural procreation is concerned. Disease and other blight does its work elsewhere. Nature has a habit of regulating itself. Do you think you are not part of nature? That you have risen above it (or below, as some seem to think)?
What I think would be stupid is deliberate attempts by us to eradicate large portions of our own species. That would mean that all morals are now null and void, and all you leftie loonies would have to shut up Laughing


You're looking at it wrong. Pete wasn't wrong at all and I suspect he was looking at it the same as I was.

The average lifespan of a species is around a million years - maybe two if everything goes well. We were doomed to extinction from the moment the first Homo sapiens was born to our predecessors. Wink

99.9% of every species that ever existed is extinct. We might manage to cheat the odds if we grow up as a species, but then we might destroy ourselves. Or a large impactor could strike an ocean or large land mass. Or one of the many supervolcanos on the planet could erupt. All of these things have happened in the Earth's past with a degree of regularity and all of these caused mass extinctions. Then there's tectonics...

We're doomed as a species on Earth. It's just a matter of when and how. Laughing
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 14:41 - 22 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
Islander wrote:
Or a large impactor could strike an ocean or large land mass.


Give it another 100 years and I reckon we'll have this one licked as well.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 14:52 - 22 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
Islander wrote:
Or a large impactor could strike an ocean or large land mass. Or one of the many supervolcanos on the planet could erupt. All of these things have happened in the Earth's past with a degree of regularity and all of these caused mass extinctions. Then there's tectonics...

We're doomed as a species on Earth. It's just a matter of when and how. Laughing


Oh, how you've changed your tune! Laughing
Careful, or you'll get cramp from all those awkward positions you're taking!

And if you want to extend it out for maybe another 4 billion years, THE PLANET is doomed by solar death. So what exactly is it we're trying to save again? Laughing

This is our time. We ought to make the most of it.
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Last edited by chickenstrip on 14:57 - 22 Jan 2023; edited 1 time in total
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 14:54 - 22 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pete. wrote:
Polarbear wrote:
I don't think we can save the planet and population as we know it.


Definitely not. The entire population is sure to die.


chickenstrip wrote:

Absolute nonsense. It may be that the planet can't sustain the kind of population it has now, especially if it keeps growing, but the complete end to the human race? Ludicrous.


He said the pupulation as we know it. No-one lives for ever so the current population is sure to die.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 14:58 - 22 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pete. wrote:


He said the pupulation as we know it. No-one lives for ever so the current population is sure to die.


So now we're delving into the pointless side of the discussion?
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Islander
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PostPosted: 15:23 - 22 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:
Islander wrote:
Or a large impactor could strike an ocean or large land mass. Or one of the many supervolcanos on the planet could erupt. All of these things have happened in the Earth's past with a degree of regularity and all of these caused mass extinctions. Then there's tectonics...

We're doomed as a species on Earth. It's just a matter of when and how. Laughing


Oh, how you've changed your tune! Laughing
Careful, or you'll get cramp from all those awkward positions you're taking!


Changed? Not at all. I've always said this is an inevitability so no position change and certainly not awkward.

chickenstrip wrote:
And if you want to extend it out for maybe another 4 billion years, THE PLANET is doomed by solar death. So what exactly is it we're trying to save again? Laughing

This is our time. We ought to make the most of it.


That's why I said:

Quote:
We're doomed as a species on Earth. It's just a matter of when and how. Laughing


And I agree, we should make the most of it which is why I always challenge the deniers. Wink
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 15:35 - 22 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
So yes, as I said to Pete, talking natural extinction events here is delving into the pointless side of the conversation. Or just not taking part in this particular conversation at all.

Got anything to get us back on track? You and I, I think, mostly see eye to eye. We clash on use of language, maybe the current degree of the climate change problem, and perhaps a degree or two of ideology, that's all. Oh, and I don't think it's useful to preach doomsday scenarios in that context.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 15:49 - 22 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:
So yes, as I said to Pete, talking natural extinction events here is delving into the pointless side of the conversation. Or just not taking part in this particular conversation at all.

Got anything to get us back on track? You and I, I think, mostly see eye to eye. We clash on use of language, maybe the current degree of the climate change problem, and perhaps a degree or two of ideology, that's all. Oh, and I don't think it's useful to preach doomsday scenarios in that context.


A bit of levity here and there is a good thing. Wink

Preaching? Nope, it's counterproductive. Saying they exist? Well absolutely. Knowing the extent and range of risks is important.

I think we were pretty much on track anyway. Thumbs Up
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 16:23 - 22 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
Islander wrote:
Knowing the extent and range of risks is important.


But in these days of social media, you have to be careful, since there are people who immediately get frightened half to death by the extremes and then it's all they see. Be careful to couch your terms in what is actually likely, as the government's Covid advisors failed to do. Well, perhaps they just didn't know, but then they shouldn't have behaved as though they did. I can see signs of similar happening on the climate change topic.
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 16:58 - 22 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
[quote="chickenstrip"]
Pete. wrote:


So now we're delving into the pointless side of the discussion?


The whole of this conversation is pointless. Two (or more) sides fruitlessly bickering and pinch-hitting for minor points yet achieving a sum total of fuck all.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 17:06 - 22 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pete. wrote:

The whole of this conversation is pointless. Two (or more) sides fruitlessly bickering and pinch-hitting for minor points yet achieving a sum total of fuck all.


You have a point Laughing
My excuse is boredom.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 17:33 - 26 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
From the people that brought you Ursine defecation habits and Papal religious choices...

CLASSIC MOTORCYCLE EMISSIONS "SO SMALL AS TO BE ALMOST INVISIBLE," REPORT FINDS

I doubt the tree-huggers will bother creating counter-propaganda so hopefully this will stay as the last word on the subject and the classic bike CC/ULEZ exemptions will stay in place.
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bhinso
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PostPosted: 17:05 - 08 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
This is predominantly an anti-woke speech, but it's focus is climate change, as a lot of woke people suffer from climate change trauma

https://www.facebook.com/PipGogov/videos/514810630633845

Main points
UK contributes around 2% globally, so even if we disappeared it would make the square root of fcuk all different
The key polluters (e.g. China, Russia, India) have other priorities, such as getting 100's of millions out of poverty
As a country, if we're going to help, it will be by technological breakthroughs
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 18:00 - 08 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
So the solution is to not change our own behaviour?


Creating 2% of.co2 from well less than 2% of the.world population is hard to justify regardless.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 20:34 - 08 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nobby the Bastard wrote:
So the solution is to not change our own behaviour?


Creating 2% of.co2 from well less than 2% of the.world population is hard to justify regardless.


If we change our own behaviour and become the greenest country on the planet and Climate Change still happens will you be happy?

I think the point of the speech was to have some perspective.
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doggone
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PostPosted: 21:30 - 08 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nobby the Bastard wrote:
So the solution is to not change our own behaviour?



All that's happened so far is heavy manufacturing that used to make things by heating stuff up with coal and gas or electricity made from it has been exported - mainly to China.
This is continuing and they have now moved on to trying to do away with as much agriculture as possible - so we can import even more food from wherever is cheapest.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 09:24 - 09 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
In summary Net Zero UK means exporting the main sources of pollution to foreign countries, minimising the use of personal transport and subsidising Green energy by raiding the bank accounts of the poor.

Between the dishonesty and the cruelty is it any wonder there's some scepticism surrounding Climate Change action?
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M.C
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PostPosted: 17:45 - 09 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
Easy-X wrote:
Nobby the Bastard wrote:
So the solution is to not change our own behaviour?


Creating 2% of.co2 from well less than 2% of the.world population is hard to justify regardless.


If we change our own behaviour and become the greenest country on the planet and Climate Change still happens will you be happy?

I think the point of the speech was to have some perspective.

Our reductions in emissions are being completely obliterated by emerging nations, who are doing the same thing (we did), on a much much larger scale, in full knowledge of what they're doing... but we're the ones told to feel guilty.

I also love the logic of "but otherwise they'll be poorer", whilst we're expected to make sacrifices for the greater good.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjqD5i_XkAARzr4.png

Easy-X wrote:
Between the dishonesty and the cruelty is it any wonder there's some scepticism surrounding Climate Change action?

It's an excuse to enact changes they've always wanted, private transportation being a big one.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 18:06 - 09 Feb 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
"15 minute cities" is starting to give off a feudal vibe, serfs tied to the land Thinking
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arry
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PostPosted: 08:15 - 19 Apr 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
M.C wrote:

Our reductions in emissions are being completely obliterated by emerging nations, who are doing the same thing (we did), on a much much larger scale, in full knowledge of what they're doing... but we're the ones told to feel guilty.


Interestingly, Alex Epstein just commented something very similar in an interview with Stossel.

The interesting part is that he reckons the current governmental pressure / finance restrictions / lobbying against fossil fuels won't really affect China and India as they've already started using fossil fuels and to stop something is really difficult. But it's much easier to stop something from starting in the first place - ie paying money to an African dictator to not invest in using fossil fuels, which will mean the people of Africa will continue to suffer in extreme poverty forever.

That sounds well raciss, if you ask me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R00TO3D3f5A

An excellent watch.
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that_impulse_guy
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PostPosted: 18:24 - 19 Apr 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
china has snooker tournaments too. And they build the equivalent of one new coal station per month.

go there...go cause chaos there, where it will actually make a difference.

either theyll stop their over-production of greenhouses gases, or they'll put you in jail.

I win either way.
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arry
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PostPosted: 20:49 - 21 Apr 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ooooof, finally. Some balls shown.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-65263650

Quote:
Trowland was jailed for three years and Decker for two years and seven months.

Both appeared shocked when the sentences were read out.


Yeah, because they thought they would have a lovey judge on-side no doubt. Meanwhile.

Quote:
Prosecutors said the closure caused "gridlock for miles around" and delayed almost 565,000 drivers.

Essex Police claimed small businesses lost hundreds of thousands of pounds, including one that estimated losing up to £170,000 in earnings.

The force also referenced a heavily pregnant woman who needed urgent medical help; a child with additional needs who could not access medication and a person who missed a best friend's funeral.


All sacrifices they are willing to make for you to realise you're the problem.
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