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Electric Vehicle Heavy Thinking Thread

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PostPosted: 12:18 - 27 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 16:50 - 27 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
HardlyDavidson wrote:


Everyman - "Soon we'll all be driving around in electric cars!"
Physics - "Am I a joke to you?"


And how long does it take to change a battery?
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 21:31 - 27 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pete. wrote:
HardlyDavidson wrote:


Everyman - "Soon we'll all be driving around in electric cars!"
Physics - "Am I a joke to you?"


And how long does it take to change a battery?


How long's a piece of string?

If you have a 12Ah battery of whatever volts and you have the matching charger chucking out 4A then it'll take at least 3 hours for a full charge assuming the battery chemistry and support circuitry can handle that charge current.

I suppose we are knocking over the problems one by one...

Electric motors were pretty much perfected a century ago: good torque, high speeds, less need for elaborate gears, over 90% energy efficient (with regards to converting electrical energy into kinetic energy.)

Power transmission @ 450kW? Nice! Probably cost a mint to install at your own house but perfectly acceptable to have at traditional "petrol" stations.

So it just comes down to the batteries really. 450kW is nice and all but you'll not get so many cycles out of your batteries if you fast charge all the time.

IMHO the optimum technology would be Ethanol instead of Petrol and covert cars and bikes over to that (bio-diesel for the trucks.) That would be Stage 1.

Stage 2 would be some boffin creating a fuel cell that catalyses Ethanol and Air to produce electricity.

This would overcome the two major issues with the internal combustion engine: inefficiency (heat and mechanical loses) and nitrogen dioxide emissions (which always come from burning stuff inefficiently with air) while still having the convenience of pouring stuff into a tank.
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 21:49 - 27 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
And this is what you call 'heavy thinking'?

You're still thinking in terms of charging a motive force battery in-car. This is not the only (nor the most efficient) option.

Ever swapped a battery in a mobile phone? How hard was it? Piss-easy and almost impossible to get wrong. Do the same for car batteries.

Many things in a car are already mandatory standardised-fitment and it doesn't take much of a leap of imagination to figure out that if battery packs were standardised fitment then with automated swap-out technology you can pull into a service bay and have your depleted battery exchanged for a fully charged one in a matter of moments. This takes away the need for high-amps chargers and your speculated huge-cross-section conductors because you can have racks of batteries all charging all the time, at optimum charging rates and even using cut-price off-peak electricity.
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Sister Sledge
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PostPosted: 21:56 - 27 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
This ^^
Sadly though, manufacturers build in a particular style or type. By doing that it leaves little or no space to plonk a decent-sized battery pack. Personally I'd much rather have a practical vehicle over something that leaves me stranded while it charges for a day..
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 22:24 - 27 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sister Sledge wrote:
This ^^
Sadly though, manufacturers build in a particular style or type.


For now, but fuel pump receptacles are standardised where once they were all different styles, same as LPG fillers. Standardised battery fitment is just one step further on. Even if the manufacturers do offer bespoke fitments they'll have to make it standard across their own range or when battery-swapping takes off they will get left in the wake for lack of convenience.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 22:25 - 27 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Settling for a standard fitment would suppress innovation. Manufacturers and legislators aren't ready to accept that the current state of battery technology is as good as it's going to get.
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 22:36 - 27 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
Settling for a standard fitment would suppress innovation. Manufacturers and legislators aren't ready to accept that the current state of battery technology is as good as it's going to get.


Standard does not mean perpetually standard. Phone charger leads are mostly standardised fitment but that hasn't suppressed innovation in phone manufacture nor does it mean that new sockets are not being designed.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 22:44 - 27 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
Manufacturers and legislators aren't ready to accept that the current state of battery technology is as good as it's going to get.


I would not be so sure about that. There already are alternative battery designs. It's all about the first manufacturer to risk the potential failure of bringing something new/unusual onto the market. For instance, the ''dual carbon battery'' design promises faster charging and higher energy density than current lithium based batteries. Pretty much supercapacitors.

But as said, it's not feasible for many manufacturers to try something new.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 23:49 - 27 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pete. wrote:
Ever swapped a battery in a mobile phone? How hard was it? Piss-easy and almost impossible to get wrong. Do the same for car batteries.


With all due respect, which century have you travelled from? Phone battery replacement at the very least requires tiny torx bits, a hot air gun and a lot of patience!

But your thinking is not uncommon. My boss at work suggested something similar...

How about a small amount of built-in batteries e.g. giving you 50-mile of range and then "extender" batteries in the boot that you just rent and swap out at the service station. You get a fully charged replacement while they trickle charge your flat one, increasing the battery's longevity, and that goes to someone else the next day.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 23:56 - 27 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
RhynoCZ wrote:
...There already are alternative battery designs. It's all about the first manufacturer to risk the potential failure of bringing something new/unusual onto the market. For instance, the ''dual carbon battery'' design promises faster charging and higher energy density than current lithium based batteries. Pretty much supercapacitors...


The entire concept of "the battery" is a problem: it separates energy storage from energy transmission whereas liquid fuel (petrol, diesel, methanol, etc.) is both storage and transmission in one.

Lithium battery fires are already pretty hairy affairs and require the fire brigade to give specialist training to their guys and girls.

Not that I'm saying a petrol fire isn't a ferocious force of nature just a lot more predictable.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 00:04 - 28 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
HardlyDavidson wrote:
over half the fuel you put in your tank will ultimately be wasted...

Will you ever be able to charge a bike or car battery to 80% full in 5 minutes? Nope, never going to happen.


1) Please explain that.

2) Hence the need for standardised batteries, so you can just pull in to a battery station, swap your discharged battery for a standard size charged one, and drive off (lorries can have one sort of battery, cars another, bikes another.... more powerful machines take multiple "standard" batteries). The "fuel surcharge" pays for recycling/checking/replacing knackered batteries, plus the workers' time, plus the fuel.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 00:06 - 28 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
How big a lithium based battery would have to be to hold charge for 50 miles? How would they swap those batteries? The internet says 424 Km range in Tesla weights 540 Kg that would translate to 0.785 Kg per 1 Km. 50 miles being 80 Km, that makes the pack at least 62.8 Kg.

Not really something one would conveniently just swap whenever. So, you would need some contraption to help with the process = making it even less convenient and expensive.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 00:13 - 28 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Riejufixing wrote:
1) Please explain that.


Dinosaur juice is lovely and convenient and all but burning it to produce kinetic energy isn't very efficient. Half is pretty generous TBH.

I could see "full service" coming back into fashion if the attendant is whizzing about on a teeny-tiny forklift swapping batteries in and out of cars.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 00:55 - 28 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
RhynoCZ wrote:
Not really something one would conveniently just swap whenever. So, you would need some contraption to help with the process = making it even less convenient and expensive.


Of course. Design now is all over the place, and standardisation is something that may now be impossible. However, it's not too late. There are already motorcycles that can take more than one battery, and these are changeable, easily, by hand. Cars? Park "on the spot" on the forecourt, and your old batttery(s) is dropped from underneath, the new one(s) pushed up/on by t'robot. Lorries? Same but bigger, or sideways job, or hoisted/lowered.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 00:57 - 28 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
HardlyDavidson wrote:
Riejufixing wrote:
1) Please explain that.

Half (efficiency) is pretty generous TBH.


I doubt that there's a road-going engine that gets that efficient. I;'d guess most "new" ones are 30%+, some around 40%.
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 06:11 - 28 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
HardlyDavidson wrote:
Pete. wrote:
Ever swapped a battery in a mobile phone? How hard was it? Piss-easy and almost impossible to get wrong. Do the same for car batteries.


With all due respect, which century have you travelled from? Phone battery replacement at the very least requires tiny torx bits, a hot air gun and a lot of patience!


It was an example, and clearly you understand the analogy.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 11:45 - 28 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Riejufixing wrote:
RhynoCZ wrote:
Not really something one would conveniently just swap whenever. So, you would need some contraption to help with the process = making it even less convenient and expensive.


Of course. Design now is all over the place, and standardisation is something that may now be impossible. However, it's not too late. There are already motorcycles that can take more than one battery, and these are changeable, easily, by hand. Cars? Park "on the spot" on the forecourt, and your old batttery(s) is dropped from underneath, the new one(s) pushed up/on by t'robot. Lorries? Same but bigger, or sideways job, or hoisted/lowered.


Do you see the issue here? There's no such infrastructure. There are barely enough places where you can charge the batteries conventionally. Also, would you be willing to pay extra money for having the battery replaced instead of charged in the car? You would also have to alter the whole design of such vehicle, in terms of placement of said replaceable batteries (mobile phone analogy).

By the way Tesla already did the ''party trick'', a quick swap of the battery pack on their model S, with such contraption, that you have described. I think if it was feasible, they would use it.

The rule of the information age is, if you can think of it, there probably is someone already doing it. EDIT: Or is it the porn rule?
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 12:01 - 28 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
I've just watched that Tesla battery swap out. Under 2 minutes and is very impressive.

If that was a standard it could well change the perception of electric vehicles for dinosaurs like me.

HOWEVER

The technology and cost required to fit multiple changers in every fuel station in the land, presuming you could get manufacturers to agree a standard, would be astronomical.

There was no mention of cost for a battery change.

It requires drivers to park in exactly the right place. Laughing

It's a clever trick that actually has very little chance of being implemented in large quantities as a day to day service, probably at best in a major dealership for battery changes when they have deteriorated.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 14:32 - 28 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
RhynoCZ wrote:
Do you see the issue here? There's no such infrastructure.


"These new internal combustion engines will never work there's no infrastructure in place"


RhynoCZ wrote:
There are barely enough places where you can charge the batteries conventionally. Also, would you be willing to pay extra money for having the battery replaced instead of charged in the car? You would also have to alter the whole design of such vehicle, in terms of placement of said replaceable batteries (mobile phone analogy).


Yes dear. Think about it.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 15:11 - 28 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Electric options are only better for the world if they come from non-fossil-fuel sources.

Nuclear is the best option here by far. Typical energy density of nuclear fuel is 80 million joules per litre.

To compare, the energy density of gasoline is 34 million joules per litre.

Nuclear fuel is a 2000 times denser store of energy.

As for Fukushima, any amount of radioactive elements that escaped after that event have long since decayed to safe levels. The idea that everything radioactive is a long term threat to life is a scare story pushed by those who oppose or blindly fear nuclear power.

https://www.livescience.com/61986-fukushima-anniversary-radiation-levels.html

Quote:

Radioactive levels dropped from April to May 2011, largely because most of the material had such short half-lives, the researchers wrote. For instance, with a half-life of eight days, iodine-131 is basically "dead" after 10 half-lives, or 80 days
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 15:14 - 28 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Riejufixing wrote:
RhynoCZ wrote:
Do you see the issue here? There's no such infrastructure.


"These new internal combustion engines will never work there's no infrastructure in place"


But that grew along with the emergence of the car. Here our lords and masters want an instant electric car society while expecting private companies to create and pay for it all instantly.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2202831/With-staggering-36-pumps-141-nozzles-tanks-week-hold-1-3-million-fuel--Britains-biggest-petrol-station-open-business.html

This is 5 years out of date but it has the capacity to serve 3400 motorists a day. Can you imagine a place that would have to capacity to change or charge 3400 batteries a day? It's utterly mind boggling.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 18:25 - 28 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
Nuclear is the best option here by far.rgy.

As for Fukushima, any amount of radioactive elements that escaped after that event have long since decayed to safe levels. The idea that everything radioactive is a long term threat to life is a scare story pushed by those who oppose or blindly fear nuclear power.

https://www.livescience.com/61986-fukushima-anniversary-radiation-levels.html


Yes, I agree about nuclear generation. It's time to put a lot more effort into novel generation techniques invented in the '50s, and the subject of considerble research by China.

"As for Fukushima":

"7 Years After Fukushima Disaster: Little Radioactive Material in US Waters"

In proximity to the area of the origiunal leakage there are still problems. Last year, the (Japanese) government were planning to discharge collected contaminated water into the sea, to dilute it to below the maximum permutted levels, I don't know whether that happened or not. It is a fact that there are long-term issues with radioactive contamination, but that should lead to much better positioning and design features of new nuclear generation sites, IMO, rather than restriction on the use of such.rather than
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 18:31 - 28 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Polarbear wrote:
Can you imagine a place that would have to capacity to change or charge 3400 batteries a day? It's utterly mind boggling.


I hear it took longer than a day to build Rome.

I reckon (looking at the "electric scooter hire" thing) that the gummint ought to offer incentives to increase (petrol) commuter motorcycle use; say £500 for 50ccs, £600 for 125s, just because of the fuel saving, for the interim period until we've all got electric vehicles....
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 21:32 - 28 Apr 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Regarding nuclear power I always remember a conversation I had with my uncle who retired from a lab job as a nuclear chemist for Sizewell A...

When a reactor is dismantled there are broadly 3 categories of radioactive waste:

1) Disposable stuff like old welly boots and gloves - things that were just generally used in the vicinity of the reactor
2) Stuff associated more directly with operations such as the pipes that carried water in and out of the reactor
3) The reactor core components themselves

We were chatting about this on a beach in Cornwall. My uncle kicked a rock. "This would be Category 2."

Hmm... a story for the geologists perhaps but the rabid paranoia over nuclear power is just totally bat shit mad.
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Old Thread Alert!

The last post was made 4 years, 357 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
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