2 stroke 50cc for a learner?

[Derek Noakes]

Hello all (again)

My daughter will be 16 soon and we're looking to put her through her CBT so that she can get to school and, subsequently, college. I've had a 4 stroke 50cc in the past though and they're painfully, possibly dangerously slow. I think you become more of a menace and danger on the roads than something ever so slightly faster that is able to keep up with the traffic.

An Aprilia RS4 50 has caught my attention which is a 2 stroke. I'm not sure what the 'design top speed' is supposed to be but from what I can tell researching the limitations of what a learner can ride, it's not the displacement that matters but the 'design speed' not exceeding 28mph. I.e. a 4 stroke 50cc may be designed or restricted to 28mph but a 2 stroke may be capable of reaching 50mph or even 60mph completely as standard without de-restricting it.

Is anyone able to confirm if this is the case or not please? I.e. would a 2 stroke 50cc (specifically an Aprilia RS4 50) actually be ILLEGAL for a learner? According to others I have spoken to they've been able to obtain insurance for their 16 year-olds on one of these despite them being capable of doing more than 28mph as standard.

I want her to be safe in as much as being able to keep up with the traffic on a busy 40mph road but I also want her to be within the law if questions were asked. If a 2 stroke designed to go faster than 28mph as standard is indeed illegal for a learner, would a de-restricted or tuned 28mph 4 stroke be a better option? And if so, are there certain models out there that are easier to tune and de-restrict than others?

[Ste]

50cc and 28mph is all she's allowed.

Two stroke, four stroke, designed top speed, restricted, completely as standard without de-restricting or however else someone want to describe the bike doesn't matter. The bike cannot be more than 50cc and cannot go faster than 28mph.

Therefore she's not going to be able to keep up with traffic on a busy 40mph road.

[Riejufixing]

[Derek Noakes]

Thank you Ste and Riejufixing.

I think it's fair to say if the design speed of a bike is greater than 28mph then even if you can get insurance, as you've rightly said, if she were involved in an incident or pulled over and questions raised I don't think it would take too much detective work to figure out the bike is faster than she's allowed to ride.

However if she were riding a bike that is designed/restricted to 28mph but it were de-restricted the chances of it being a problem in a roadside stop or incident is greatly diminished. In which case I would be comfortable taking this risk on balance as I feel she would be safer being able to do around 40mph when needed.

With this in mind, does anyone know if the Aprilia RS4 50cc is actually designed/restricted to 28mph? The reason I ask is if this is the case I'd be happy for her to ride one de-restricted. I've been in touch with someone who has one for sale and he's adamant it's been de-restricted and will do 55mph but I have a gut feeling they can do more than 28mph from stock.

Is anyone able to confirm if this is the case or not?

If the Aprilia does more than 28mph from stock it's going to be a no-go, and to be honest I can't really see the point of these bikes and why they would even sell in the first place???!!! And in which case I would be looking for a 28mph scooter that can easily be de-restricted.

Can anyone give any suggestions or recommendations on scooters which are easy to de-restrict? I understand some are more difficult than others, and some are near-impossible to de-restrict.

[Sister Sledge]

Gonna come in hard here.
It's all very well accepting that a de-restricted bike will therefore have void insurance if needed, but remember that insurance doesn't just cover machinery and street furniture should an accident happen.

An example: What if, through her own fault, she has a crash on the de-restricted bike? No other people involved, no problems with the road surface etc. Your daughter could be left crippled and in a wheelchair needing 24 hour support. Who will fund that? The insurance won't.

I'm one of those people who see rules and laws as being things that should be pushed. I know that's not everyone's cup of tea how I live my life.
One thing I will never skimp on is insurance. It's there for a reason and the reasons are peoples lives. Machines can be fixed but people can't.
____________________
CCM 404 DS

[Easy-X]

Depends what you buy. If you buy any bike that's intended for 16yo riders it will be restricted to 28mph... either the ECU, CDI, air intake or exhaust restrictions or a combination of those.

If you buy a bike and say it's for yourself you might be able to get a 50cc one that's derestricted "from the factory" e.g. say you're a racer in a 50cc only class.

The problem with the latter is that it will be noted on the DVLA database as an unrestricted bike and the insurance ppl won't touch it for a 16 yo.

Okay so you go with the former and derestrict it. Some bikes are better than others for this. Certainly you can get more raw speed from a 2 smoke than 4.

Unfortunately if your 16yo has any problems that involve a close inspection of the bike then the insurance will be invalidated which might make for big costs in an accident. AND on top of that no insurance = minimum 6 points and at least a £300 fine. And younger riders/drivers can only tot-up 6 pts before the licence is taken away, not 12 like us old folks.

tl;dr don't do it. Bumble along for a year @ 28mph.
____________________
Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter

[Riejufixing]

Buying new in the UK they will be restricted to 28MPH give or take a gnat's ckc. Seeing as you've set your heart on this particular model "for your daughter", there's not much further advice can do.

[Riejufixing]

[Ste]

[Teflon-Mike]

What you are at here, is looking at the law, saying "That law doesn't suit me! Can I have a different one please? No.. OK, well, then I want to break the law.... how can I do that... but not get cought?" Its very very NIMBY rational.

And it has effall top do with 'Safety'.... and its an utter perversion of logic, trying to justify why you want to break the law, on an inordinately skew set of reasoning based on uitterly nebulous ideas of safety.

Its a Moped.... a MOtorised- PEDal-Cycle... and the legal limitations that frame how fast they aren't allowed to go, are actually not even as high as an ordinary Human Powered push-bike may go.... but that STILL isn't the problem.

Shortyly after you daughter had learned to walk... did YOU stick her on a little push-bike with stabilisers and watch her wobble up and down the pavement? A whileafter that, di you take the stabilisers off, and watch her wobble into the hedge while she learned to balence? Some while later still, did you get her a big wheel geared push-bike, and then have arguments over her leaving the cycle hat at home when she went down the p[ark with her mates?

Get things into proportion here.... CYCLING is dangerous.... and accident stats would suggest that per mile its at least as dangerouse as riding a motorbike, probably more so 'cos push bikes don't make
the stats so easily 'cos they dont have a number-plate or insurance.

DID you have all these qualms about your darlings safety on a push-bike?

If not why not? And why NOW, all of a sudden, given she'd had to have a bit of training, have insurance and display a reg plate, have you suddenly decided to contemplate the 'risks' she is facing.....

And utterly bizarrely, decided that by some dint of illogic, helping her break the law and be at MORE risk, on an illegal and faster still not-a-Moped, is some-how a really great idea and going to make her 'safer'?!?!

It is utterly daft, mate,

When No1-Son was 16, he'd been doing push-bike time trials and cross country racing for a couple of years. He regularly dropped the a 10 mile road-sprint in around 20 minutes, so an average sped a little faster than a Moped is legally allowed to go; and that is not particularly remarkable. The groan-ups, can achieve double that, and more, on the flat for shortish distances!

When I was at Uni, I shared digs with a meat-hed cylo-psyco; and he used to get me to go out when he was 'training' pretending to be 'the pack' for him on my 125, whilst he paced me on his push-bike... and it was always a bit of a mind-warp, when I would be doing a nice steady 60, sat upright to make a 'slip-stream' for him, on straight level bit of road, when he made a 'break' and over took me!

So! Giving No1-Son a moped when he was 16 actually slowed him down a tad! MORE, it encouraged him to wear safety wear a little more protective than a lycra swim-suit and polystyrene flower pot for a hat, and stealing his mother's Imac to do his legs! More STILL, he had a number-plate on the back! He was a little more want then to NOT play laws of convenience, riding on the road when it suited, and jumping on and off the pavement whenever he felt like it, and actually STOP for red traffic lights.... from time to time!

Yeah, boy-stuff... but.

You let them off the leash, they gonna do whatever they gonna do... you CANNOT wrap them in cotton wool thier whole lives, at some point you HAVE to let them go fall over and just hope that they dont hurt themselves too much, and there's a big enough band-aid in the first aid box, when they do!

BUT... get it in perspective... its a MO-PED, its NOT a car not a full size motorbike. Its performance limitations are there, in law, and framed around those of a human powered push bike.... a human powered push bike you probably had no qualms about sticking your daughter on barely as soon as she could walk!

Going faster, is almost never any 'safer'... and if the issue here is the disparity in speed and being over wrought by cars truing to go faster.... then THAT isn't a problem brought by the low performance limits of the bike...

WHERE, would the girl be in traffic travelling at over 30mph? And WHY do YOU let alone her, feel some comunction to go as fast as they are?

WOULD YOU RIDE A PUSH BIKE, in those situations?

Pretty simple really, IF you or daughter dont feel comfy riding in traffic.. DONT RIDE IN TRAFFIC! Its NOT the bike that's the problem, its YOUR expectations and aspirations.

If you wouldn't ride a pedal bike some-where, don't ride a moped there! It's pretty simple!

Its not the fact that the moped is so slow or lacking performance, its 'just' that you or daughter dont really want to accept those limitations, and would like to go as fast as the cars or proper motorbikes....

THIS is not a problem with the bike!!! The bikie is the bike is the bike, and as said, its as fast as a push bike, without having to pedal the thing!

And youlikely did NOT have these worries when you stuck the ghirl on something just as or more dangerouse, without a number plate.

Meanwhile... back to the coton wool!

In the greater scheme of things.. LIFE is dangerous... and for typical teen, its fraught with them.

And riding a push bike or moped REALLY is far from top of the list of stuff likely to hurt them!

More people are seriously injured in 'alcohol related incidents' per participant hour than ever are on a push-bike, motorbike or car combined!

16 Year old Girl? Heading down-town, putting on the war paint to try sneak into a night-club?

THAT is a risk.

And a far more likely one, and one with far more dire possible consequences!

SO! Whilst you ponder the criminal genius of how to sort her an A1 class motorcycle, you can 'blagg' for her to ride on a moped licence entitlement, and how to help her dodge getting cought for that astounding bit of criminal win.....

Will you be following her to town after school? Will you be watching what she drinks, and stopping any-one drop an e in her glass? Will you be following her to the bogs, and taking samples to measure for purity when she goes to buy a party pill?

Will you be hailing her a taxi at the end of the night, and plating barrier on the kerb to stop her toppling into the street on daft heels, half cut?

Etc

Etc

Etc!

In the greater scheme of stuff... the Danger of her riding a perfectly LEGAL moped on the public road, PALE to those she will amd probably has been putting herself into for somewhile, engaging in more usual teen-activity.

Do you REALLY know where she is going when she tells you she is popping round her school freinds to do her home-work? What could she actually be up to? IS it just her home-work and some spare maxi-pads in that big bag on her shoulder, or is she hiding a complete party outfit in there and about to go round some paedophiles party palace having been promiced some really good wiz?

The LAW is the LAW is the LAW, it may be an ass, but it's still the law!

And helping her break the law, and helping her go faster than the law allows, is NOT, really a wonderful idea, and it certainly isn;'t a way to make her any safer.

The while precept is skewed and an argument of your own probably perverse and egocentric perceptions and values.

Has effall to do with 'Safety'... stop kidding yourself, stop kidding your daughter; take a cold hard look at at, it in its entirety.

IF a moped is worth anything; look at what it is, a motorised push bike, that begs petrol, and tax and insurance and a licence, and has to display a number-plate... accept the 28mph speed capability and work WITH it rather than against it... and if that means NOT going up the by-pass in 60mph traffic, cos scary... dont go up the dang bypass! Its not a stuffing Audi, its a moped!

Otherwise... there are a gazilion other dire and imminent threats to the girl, doing what teenage girls do, and the risks that go with that, Utterly unrelated to motorised transport... more than a few that are, and the back-seat of the bus to college springs to mind in that, apparently deserted late night busses a bit more, and teenage girls chucking themselves under taxis falling off low kerbs and high heels even more.... NO MOPED REQUIRED!

What are you actually hoping to do here? Is it in anyway actually appropriate, let alone the best thing you could be doing, and even if it is, is it actually likely to achieve your objective of making her safer?

I really don't think so...

For MY teenage daughter when she came to it... the cost of insurance for a slo-ped, was the deciding factor, and she decided upon a 125 when she was 17 instread... then wanted a car... meanwhile; I inced every time she left the house on a Fiday night, telling me she was 'just' going to youth club.... having some inkling of just what she could be doing instead....

BUT... at some point, you HAVE to let go the baby-reins and let them get on with it... and merely HOPE you have done enough in the years up till, that they have 'some' sense and don't hurt themselves too bad.

What you DONT do, is get the notion that come a Fiday night they are going to head down town and take drugs, so start giving them Heroine, cos you can have some faith its not a bad cut!!!! Which,k is SORT of analogous to this idea of what you are doing trying to get her sorted with an illegal not a moped, on some misguided notion that it is 'safer'!!!!!
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'

[stevo as b4]

A 50cc moped is just another valid way to get from A-B in town centre and city traffic, as is a 125cc or a 1000cc bike or a push bike or a car.

If the person needs transport in an urban environment there are lots of options for that, and a moped isn't the best or the worst option, just one of many.

If the person wants a 50cc moped because they just want one and want to ride a bike for fun or they like bikes, then I simply would strongly advise them not to bother. Where is the fun in riding any size or type of bike on today's traffic congested roads? I don't see it but would be happy to have it explained to me.

If I liked bikes and wanted to spend all my time and money on them, I'd be looking for something interesting to get into or do with them. Racing, track days, off road competition etc.

Its the same with cars too. Some have them like a washing machine, in that they can put people in them and at the end they come out somewhere different that they wanted to go.

It doesn't matter if you're 17 or 70, who on here has ever gone out and bought a car because they just wanted something to thrash round the roads for a laugh and fun. I bet it's no-one tbh!

[Easy-X]

[Derek Noakes]

[Easy-X]

<sigh> let's try again...

At 16 and with a CBT certificate one is entitled to ride a 2-wheeled motor vehicle of less than 50cc, with a top speed not exceeding 28mph.

That is all.

Ride/drive anything else at that age (beyond a tractor for agricultural use, or riding on private land with the owner's permission) and one is committing a crime.

There is no grey area.

Why sell 50cc bikes that do over 28mph? Why not! There's no law against selling bikes, only around personal entitlement to ride a particular type of bike.
____________________
Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter

[Ste]

[The Shaggy D.A.]

Just as an aside and out of interest - the "restricted by one wire" style mopeds, is the wire taking speedo readings? I've driven company vans that are restricted to 65 & 72mph, and you can thrash the shit out of them, but as soon as you hit the limiter, that's your lot.

I think I could cope with a 28mph restriction on a moped as long as it didn't get to a hill and you suddenly find it won't go much above 20.
____________________
Chances are quite high you are not in my Monkeysphere, and I don't care about you. Don't take it personally.
Currently : Royal Enfield 350 Meteor
Previously : CB100N > CB250RS > XJ900F > GT550 > GPZ750R/1000RX > AJS M16 > R100RT > Bullet 500 > CB500 > LS650P > Bullet Electra X & YBR125 > Bullet 350 "Superstar" & YBR125 Custom > Royal Enfield Classic 500 Despatch Limited Edition (28 of 200) & CB Two-Fifty Nighthawk > ER5

[Derek Noakes]

[Derek Noakes]

I mean CVT

Got, comma, separated, values, on, the, brain, for, some, reason.

[Pete.]

[Riejufixing]

[Riejufixing]

[Teflon-Mike]

Just a daft idea here, B-U-T, why on earth would a speed or power limiting device, working on the black-box brain of the Ignition controller... that gets its primary signal to set the spark timing and the advance curve for timing, from a crank-position-sensor, (like points, or a hall-effect trigger) that usually sends that signal to the tacho display.... need to get a signal back from the tacho to tell it to start limiting power?
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'

[Riejufixing]

[Derek Noakes]

[Derek Noakes]