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Polarbear
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Joined: 24 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: 11:02 - 08 May 2019    Post subject: I'm doing something wrong Reply with quote
Trump business losses ‘passed a billion dollars in 10 years’

https://home.bt.com/news/world-news/trump-business-losses-passed-a-billion-dollars-in-10-years-11364360660969

How come the bank are on my back when I go £100 OD and he can get away with that? Very Happy

Am I with the wrong bank? Is it because I'm not orange (racist banks).

Big business moguls on here, please explain! Thumbs Up
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Im-a-Ridah
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Joined: 20 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: 12:08 - 08 May 2019    Post subject: Re: I'm doing something wrong Reply with quote
Polarbear wrote:
Trump business losses ‘passed a billion dollars in 10 years’

https://home.bt.com/news/world-news/trump-business-losses-passed-a-billion-dollars-in-10-years-11364360660969

How come the bank are on my back when I go £100 OD and he can get away with that? Very Happy

Am I with the wrong bank? Is it because I'm not orange (racist banks).

Big business moguls on here, please explain! Thumbs Up


Because it's an investment in a revenue generating company. The bank can keep giving you hundreds of pounds and just let you keep it, but it's unlikely you'll ever start giving them hundreds of pounds later on down on the line which you will let them keep! Given that Trumps company seems to be making profits now that would suggest they were right.

If you want to compare then consider how tuition fee debt is written off after 25 years. That's an investment in the person, rather than just plain lost cash. Some asset of value results from the investment.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 12:21 - 08 May 2019    Post subject: Re: I'm doing something wrong Reply with quote
Im-a-Ridah wrote:

Because it's an investment in a revenue generating company. The bank can keep giving you hundreds of pounds and just let you keep it, but it's unlikely you'll ever start giving them hundreds of pounds later on down on the line which you will let them keep! Given that Trumps company seems to be making profits now that would suggest they were right.

If you want to compare then consider how tuition fee debt is written off after 25 years. That's an investment in the person, rather than just plain lost cash. Some asset of value results from the investment.


Woosh Laughing

Which is why I'll never be a millionaire.
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 12:27 - 08 May 2019    Post subject: Re: I'm doing something wrong Reply with quote
Polarbear wrote:
Im-a-Ridah wrote:

Because it's an investment in a revenue generating company. The bank can keep giving you hundreds of pounds and just let you keep it, but it's unlikely you'll ever start giving them hundreds of pounds later on down on the line which you will let them keep! Given that Trumps company seems to be making profits now that would suggest they were right.

If you want to compare then consider how tuition fee debt is written off after 25 years. That's an investment in the person, rather than just plain lost cash. Some asset of value results from the investment.


Woosh Laughing

Which is why I'll never be a millionaire.


TBF you could be a millionaire, but most people don't really want to be. They would rather spend time with their family, watch TV or something like that Smile
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bhinso
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PostPosted: 14:37 - 08 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
On the flip side, Starbucks must be raking it in, with all the Facepenis spurg I've seen about the coffee cup in the Game of Thrones ep.

Who knows, they may even end up paying 50p tax this year Thumbs Up
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iooi
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PostPosted: 20:32 - 08 May 2019    Post subject: Re: I'm doing something wrong Reply with quote
Im-a-Ridah wrote:
[
If you want to compare then consider how tuition fee debt is written off after 25 years. That's an investment in the person, rather than just plain lost cash. Some asset of value results from the investment.


A pretty poor comment.....

If the person has not paid back the loan is 25 years, then that was a waste of money...... And a shit investment...

Perhaps they should reverse the loan payback. The more they earn the less they pay.
Now that is a investment in the person.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 22:06 - 08 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
I don't know what the corporation tax rules are like in the US, but 'building' and 'depreciation' wouldn't really result in repeated losses like that in the uk.

There are tax credits (very limited and regimented) to replace depreciation (because you can make depreciation just about anything you like) on non current assets but this doesn't include land.

I suspect it's just what his accountants told him every time he made a loss to stop him throwing a strop.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 22:52 - 08 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think it was Robert Maxwell who said:

Quote:
If I owe the bank £10,000 I have a problem... if I owe the bank £10 billion they have the problem.

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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 23:24 - 08 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
A company doesn't necessarily have to run at a profit. For example, £10million loss might be offset with £10million of assets.

Also, unless either shareholders or creditors petition for liquidation due to insolvency (or there is some massive and illegal irregularity in accounting that even the SEC/FCA couldn't ignore) then things will tick on just fine!
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Ste
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PostPosted: 23:39 - 08 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
HardlyDavidson wrote:
For example, £10million loss might be offset with £10million of assets.

Ummmm, they can't be offset against each other.

Having £10,000,000 of assets doesn't stop the £10,000,000 loss from existing. The company has £10,000,000 of assets and they've got a £10,000,000 loss, they don't cancel each other out.
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thx1138
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Joined: 06 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: 01:34 - 09 May 2019    Post subject: Re: I'm doing something wrong Reply with quote
Polarbear wrote:
0969

How come the bank are on my back when I go £100 OD and he can get away with that? Very Happy


owe a bank £100 and they will set the wolves on you

owe a bank £100,000,000 and they will send a limousine to fetch you
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 15:22 - 09 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ste wrote:
Having £10,000,000 of assets doesn't stop the £10,000,000 loss from existing. The company has £10,000,000 of assets and they've got a £10,000,000 loss, they don't cancel each other out.


Um, balance sheet? Okay, I was trying to keep it simple but essentially a company is technically insolvent if its liabilities are greater than its assets. I say "technically" because it doesn't actually go up in a puff of smoke in the event of insolvency - someone has to push the issue; creditors usually.

Actually, we can make it much simpler: for a publicly traded company its financial performance (profit/loss) is secondary to the faith the market has for the company and its directors.

For example, look at the investment, trading price, profit/loss, loans, etc. with Tesla.
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bhinso
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Joined: 21 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: 15:23 - 09 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
HardlyDavidson wrote:
I think it was Robert Maxwell who said:

Quote:
If I owe the bank £10,000 I have a problem... if I owe the bank £10 billion they have the problem.


No Robert Maxwell said
Quote:
Fuuuuuuuuuck!!!! glug glug.
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Nobby the Bastard
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Joined: 16 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: 17:26 - 09 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
mpd72 wrote:
Nobby the Bastard wrote:
I don't know what the corporation tax rules are like in the US, but 'building' and 'depreciation' wouldn't really result in repeated losses like that in the uk.

There are tax credits (very limited and regimented) to replace depreciation (because you can make depreciation just about anything you like) on non current assets but this doesn't include land.

I suspect it's just what his accountants told him every time he made a loss to stop him throwing a strop.


Or to minimise tax, the accountant made sure the companies made a loss year on year as the profits were invested elsewhere.


It doesn't work like that. Expenditure on capital (i.e. building) is specifically excluded from accounts for tax purposes aside from the credits I mentioned.
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Nobby the Bastard
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Joined: 16 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: 17:27 - 09 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ste wrote:
HardlyDavidson wrote:
For example, £10million loss might be offset with £10million of assets.

Ummmm, they can't be offset against each other.

Having £10,000,000 of assets doesn't stop the £10,000,000 loss from existing. The company has £10,000,000 of assets and they've got a £10,000,000 loss, they don't cancel each other out.


You do listen, then....
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Nobby the Bastard
Harley Gaydar



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PostPosted: 17:31 - 09 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
HardlyDavidson wrote:
Ste wrote:
Having £10,000,000 of assets doesn't stop the £10,000,000 loss from existing. The company has £10,000,000 of assets and they've got a £10,000,000 loss, they don't cancel each other out.


Um, balance sheet? Okay, I was trying to keep it simple but essentially a company is technically insolvent if its liabilities are greater than its assets. I say "technically" because it doesn't actually go up in a puff of smoke in the event of insolvency - someone has to push the issue; creditors usually.

Actually, we can make it much simpler: for a publicly traded company its financial performance (profit/loss) is secondary to the faith the market has for the company and its directors.

For example, look at the investment, trading price, profit/loss, loans, etc. with Tesla.


Simply put, the only only thing yopu can offset against profit to avoid paying tax (aside from charitable payments) is losses in prior years.

And then you only offset enough losses that you don't end up paying tax. You, don't declare a further loss, it scares banks and shareholders.

Having losses of £1 bil in ten years with no profits is appalling.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 18:10 - 09 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
mpd72 wrote:


That’s not true and the main reason companies often invest in IT just before year end. Are you also saying that tax bills can’t be lowered through spending on a sponsorship deal which would provide advertising?

Both are legitimate costs, both lower profit, lowering tax liability.


Most IT isn't classed as non current assets and the main reason is to use up budget (use it or loose it the following year.) It takes a lot of effort to spend so much that you loosses are I bil over 10 years.

If you were to sponsor a registered charity, yes. If not, no.

Vodaphone(UK) manage to nopt make money because their profits just manage to meet the charges demanded by their parent group (based no doubt in a tax haven outside of the EU) for the use of the trademark.

Starbucks have to purchase their beans from the parent etc, etc.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 18:26 - 09 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
To get a 100 mil per year loss in perspective., the uk spends 4 bil a year on equipment for the armed services and that includes purchasing nuclear subs, the bombs themselves, the aircraft carriers etc etc.

To lose 1/40th of that when you are in business to make a profit is horrific and unnecessary to avoid tax.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 18:36 - 09 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Arm forces and their spending habits might not be the best example...

e.g. building an aircraft carrier that you don't have planes for!
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 18:41 - 09 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
HardlyDavidson wrote:
Arm forces and their spending habits might not be the best example...

e.g. building an aircraft carrier that you don't have planes for!


Yes we do. Its called the lightning ii and I've removed some of the information I nearly posted. ..
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Last edited by Nobby the Bastard on 18:42 - 09 May 2019; edited 1 time in total
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grr666
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PostPosted: 18:41 - 09 May 2019    Post subject: Re: I'm doing something wrong Reply with quote
HardlyDavidson wrote:
Arm forces and their spending habits might not be the best example...

It's an area he has some experience in.

Polarbear wrote:
Which is why I'll never be a millionaire.

Tbh it's about £5m you'll need for the never having to work again and can do whatever you please scenario. Getting
to £1m is relatively easy but as soon as you spend any of it you're just an ordinary pleb again... Millionaire is aiming low,
multi millionaire is always the goal.
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Last edited by grr666 on 19:07 - 09 May 2019; edited 1 time in total
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