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Sister Sledge
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PostPosted: 21:40 - 22 May 2019    Post subject: Highway rules Reply with quote

Bit of a mixed bag this one and to be honest doesn't fit into a specific topic on the forum.
I've a few questions for those in the know.

Is pacemaking on the public highway illegal??

I ask because I'm particularly sick and annoyed at something near me. Some cycling groups gather on major routes just north of Newcastle and literally race on a circuit made from various dual and single carriageway roads. I'm talking 60 and 70 mph roads here and what I'd call busy for the North East as a whole.
The cycling group place warning triangles at various points on the route (not many of them) which state 'Cycling Event'.
Tonight it was utter chaos on a dualled flyover roundabout - cyclists hurtling full pelt through busy traffic. Cars and other vehicles slamming to a halt and many near misses too. The road is not closed at all for this. They do have some marshals but they sit into the roadside trees and ignore everything!
The cycling events are mostly fortnightly and have gone on for years.

On a similar subject - people will have seen horses and traps racing on the highway. Are they illegal too?
Are they only illegal because they hinder traffic when racing??

Wise answers most appreciated on this subject - it's bugged me for years. The cycling isn't just faster cycling - it's actual racing with some in smaller groups and others alone but slicing through traffic incredibly dangerously. Not like filtering at all.

Am I a grumpy old bugger? Yes.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 23:37 - 22 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like slackness on the part of the local council.

As I'm on the old 2012 Olympic cycle route and there is a yearly race around part of the old route but it's publicised well in advance, route maps in the local papers, proper signs put up, rolling road closures where needed, etc.

The only ppl who can stop them or make sure it's better organised is the council & police. I would suggest ringing your local constabulary regularly to report a group of dangerous cyclists. If you can rope in friends and family to do the same so much the better. At the same time contact your local councillor and ask if it's an officially sanctioned event.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 00:29 - 23 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's legit.

Page two, point 3-(1)
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1960/250/pdfs/uksi_19600250_en.pdf

And this: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/448260/cycle-racing-response-pdfa.pdf
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thx1138
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PostPosted: 00:38 - 23 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

I Time Trial on public roads once or twice a week.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 02:37 - 23 May 2019    Post subject: Re: Highway rules Reply with quote

Sister Sledge wrote:
Bit of a mixed bag this one and to be honest doesn't fit into a specific topic on the forum.
I've a few questions for those in the know.

Is pacemaking on the public highway illegal??

I ask because I'm particularly sick and annoyed at something near me. Some cycling groups gather on major routes just north of Newcastle and literally race on a circuit made from various dual and single carriageway roads. I'm talking 60 and 70 mph roads here and what I'd call busy for the North East as a whole.
The cycling group place warning triangles at various points on the route (not many of them) which state 'Cycling Event'.
Tonight it was utter chaos on a dualled flyover roundabout - cyclists hurtling full pelt through busy traffic. Cars and other vehicles slamming to a halt and many near misses too. The road is not closed at all for this. They do have some marshals but they sit into the roadside trees and ignore everything!
The cycling events are mostly fortnightly and have gone on for years.

On a similar subject - people will have seen horses and traps racing on the highway. Are they illegal too?
Are they only illegal because they hinder traffic when racing??

Wise answers most appreciated on this subject - it's bugged me for years. The cycling isn't just faster cycling - it's actual racing with some in smaller groups and others alone but slicing through traffic incredibly dangerously. Not like filtering at all.

Am I a grumpy old bugger? Yes.


I think a loud pipe on a motorvehicle is a nuisance.

Sonly people on bicycles man...

And there is a forum for bicycles at BCF.
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Sister Sledge
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PostPosted: 07:28 - 23 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheers Ste: I just couldn't find the legislation - an old old regulation order that so no wonder. I was looking in the wrong place.

I really don't have a problem with cycling as we all have our 'things' and what one person enjoys, the other should respect. That doesn't include swimming with Freddie in Amble Harbour though.

I agree with the cycling section but this for me was more about pacemaking in general without motorised carriages as a whole. I agree that the cycling section could have steered me in the right direction though.

As I'd mentioned, last night was stupid. The roads are wide and provide plenty of passing sections for faster users. It's just that at intersections it was madness and very dangerous. It certainly wasn't safe riding what some were doing - they were indeed racing each other and causing other road users to slam brakes on or take evasive action.

So no regulations covering horse and trap races?
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MCN
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PostPosted: 11:04 - 23 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://youtu.be/MhFlw7r63R8

Sure an' all.

🎶Digga dee dee digga dee. 🎶
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Sister Sledge
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PostPosted: 11:11 - 23 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly that yes ^^
Not having a go at them or anything but that too is pacemaking on the public highway.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 11:21 - 23 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sister Sledge wrote:
Exactly that yes ^^
Not having a go at them or anything but that too is pacemaking on the public highway.


More dangerous.
And 100% illegal.

Pikey Bastirts.

Ste 4 mod.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 13:01 - 23 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

MCN wrote:
https://youtu.be/MhFlw7r63R8

Sure an' all.

🎶Digga dee dee digga dee. 🎶


That's Eire, the police over here wouldn't dare!
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 17:50 - 23 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

You may be allowed to time trial but it is still a statuatory offence to cycle like a cunt.

Quote:
"7. Cycling furiously Cyclists cannot be booked for speeding, but under the 1847 Town Police Clauses Act(link is external), they can be fined for 'cycling furiously'. Under the Offences Against the Person Act 186(link is external)1, cyclists can be convicted and imprisoned for up to two years if found guilty of “wanton and furious driving,” which causes injury to someone other than themselves. Under Section 28 of the Road Traffic Act 1988(link is external) it is an offence for cyclists to ride recklessly or in a dangerous, careless or inconsiderate manner. Dangerous cycling, defined as riding “far below what would be expected of a competent and careful cyclist” is a more serious offence than careless and inconsiderate cycling. The maximum penalty for dangerous cycling is a £2,500 fine. "


https://www.cyclistsdefencefund.org.uk/cycling-offences

Interestingly. The very first person to ride a chain driven bicycle recognisable as such was a blacksmith from the Scottish Borders. He ran over a pedestrian on his way home and was fined for a breach of the peace.
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Dave....
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PostPosted: 18:29 - 23 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

MCN wrote:
https://youtu.be/MhFlw7r63R8

Sure an' all.

🎶Digga dee dee digga dee. 🎶



Needs subtitles.
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Skudd
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PostPosted: 19:30 - 23 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most insurances specifically state not covered for pace making, so if you did it would invalidate your insurance and riding without insurance is illegal, so in effect pace making is illegal.
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Bhud
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PostPosted: 19:54 - 23 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

I saw some pacemaking on the public highway a couple of weeks ago.

It seemed to be a bicycle race or tour, headed by people on motorcycles with big fluorescent signs on them. The motorcyclists were riding in front of the cyclists, in a kind of formation, with forerunners, etc. as well as behind them, and there were motorcycles along the side of the road too.

It happened on a really nice day on a pretty good road (B3024) in the direction from Maidenhead, so I may have touched the brakes when I saw them and didn't know what the fluorescent signs said (I think its was 'cycle event' or something like that). They were coming the opposite way, the bikers nodded but I was too busy watching my speedo, plus I found them a bit creepy. Why? Big, OLD touring bikes, not all the same but an attempt had been made to homogenise their appearance. The signs were large and easily mistaken for some kind of official or police convoy warning. They may have had poles with lights fitted to them, too. I passed one of them which appeared to have broken down, and it was a very old BMW boxer ridden by one of those types who alternate between a strange bike and a Harley or Triumph, but only in the summer months.

Can't be right, having lights and police-like signs while pacemaking on a road that has NSL portions.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 01:59 - 24 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bhud wrote:
I saw some pacemaking on the public highway a couple of weeks ago.

It seemed to be a bicycle race or tour, headed by people on motorcycles with big fluorescent signs on them. The motorcyclists were riding in front of the cyclists, in a kind of formation, with forerunners, etc. as well as behind them, and there were motorcycles along the side of the road too.

It happened on a really nice day on a pretty good road (B3024) in the direction from Maidenhead, so I may have touched the brakes when I saw them and didn't know what the fluorescent signs said (I think its was 'cycle event' or something like that). They were coming the opposite way, the bikers nodded but I was too busy watching my speedo, plus I found them a bit creepy. Why? Big, OLD touring bikes, not all the same but an attempt had been made to homogenise their appearance. The signs were large and easily mistaken for some kind of official or police convoy warning. They may have had poles with lights fitted to them, too. I passed one of them which appeared to have broken down, and it was a very old BMW boxer ridden by one of those types who alternate between a strange bike and a Harley or Triumph, but only in the summer months.

Can't be right, having lights and police-like signs while pacemaking on a road that has NSL portions.


Tour de Maidenhead.
Organised Events have local council permission and law enforcement are notified.
If the event is not a hazard to traffic flow then the PoPo won't be in attendance.
It is not a biggeee.

I haven't identified what the actual problem is with bicycles using the road in groups yet.

Am I missing something?
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Sister Sledge
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PostPosted: 07:34 - 24 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes the furious cycling and combined with insurance.

Was a recent lad not prosecuted for furious cycling in London? His bike was fixed wheel with no brakes and he killed a woman crossing a road?

With insurance, mine (for motor vehicles) specifically states no cover for pacemaking and is probably where half my confusion is coming from.
With the cycling event I regularly witness, would they have insurance to cover their backsides should something bad happen or would that be on each cyclists own back? As said, it was chaos. Let me explain..

Dual carriageway roundabout over a dual carriageway main route (A189). 5 exits off (and 5 on) with two being to dual carriageway. No traffic light controls at all and traffic flows very well with speeds on the large roundabout at around 40 mph average.
The cyclists entering the roundabout were supposed to give way to traffic approaching from their right which was already on the roundabout - they didn't even slow down for it. Instead it was like gunfire as a group of them smashed sideways (no collisions) into the traffic on the roundabout. Not just that but they crossed straight through the two lanes circling around. It was only natural that the motor vehicle drivers already on the roundabout took evasive action. Brakes were slammed on and some cars had to steer to other lanes to avoid them. It wasn't simply a case of a scary fast cyclist overtaking people.
There are no escort vehicles at these time trials - cyclists simply set off on a mapped route at timed intervals. On this occasion it seems that a bunch of them had a manly grudge against each other and had decided to group up for a race within a time trialing event.
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thx1138
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PostPosted: 10:37 - 24 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sister Sledge wrote:
On this occasion it seems that a bunch of them had a manly grudge against each other and had decided to group up for a race within a time trialing event.


They weren't time trialing then. They'd be disqualified for drafting if they bunched up.


As for the rest of it, human beings in charge of all sorts of transport can be utter bell ends, who knew right?
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Bhud
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PostPosted: 15:43 - 24 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

MCN wrote:


I haven't identified what the actual problem is with bicycles using the road in groups yet.

Am I missing something?


Nowt wrong with bicycles on the road, but there might be if their presence is somehow magnified with the help of confusing convoy entourages. I didn't have any problem with the cyclists at all - they were coming from the opposite direction and they weren't in my way. But if I had been going the same way as them, I would have much preferred if they didn't have a volunteer motorcycle company with them. A bicycle is an agile and narrow vehicle - I spot them and pass them safely with lots of space and hard on the throttle to minimise overtaking time, and I always anticipate one being around the next left-hander. No problem at all - nobody is put in danger. Two-abreast cyclist can slightly complicate matters, but what forces my brain to switch to a different program is the sight of a motorcycle. If I'm coming up behind them, I slow down and hang back and try and make sure I'm in their mirror. If they're coming the other way I move over a bit to the left if there's a car in front of them, in case they pull out to overtake. This is a completely different set of mental patterns. With a motorcycle convoy around them, a group of cyclists behaves like a large and dangerous, unpredictable block. They ride closer together. If someone, bike or pushbike, crashes, they're probably all going down. They take up the whole lane so overtaking becomes risky to everyone. They go all over the road instead of holding a line, because of the increased sense of safety. This invariably encourages furious and wanton cycling, which puts road users in general at greatly heightened risk.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 17:00 - 24 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sister Sledge wrote:
Yes the furious cycling and combined with insurance.

Was a recent lad not prosecuted for furious cycling in London? His bike was fixed wheel with no brakes and he killed a woman crossing a road?

With insurance, mine (for motor vehicles) specifically states no cover for pacemaking and is probably where half my confusion is coming from.
With the cycling event I regularly witness, would they have insurance to cover their backsides should something bad happen or would that be on each cyclists own back? As said, it was chaos. Let me explain..

Dual carriageway roundabout over a dual carriageway main route (A189). 5 exits off (and 5 on) with two being to dual carriageway. No traffic light controls at all and traffic flows very well with speeds on the large roundabout at around 40 mph average.
The cyclists entering the roundabout were supposed to give way to traffic approaching from their right which was already on the roundabout - they didn't even slow down for it. Instead it was like gunfire as a group of them smashed sideways (no collisions) into the traffic on the roundabout. Not just that but they crossed straight through the two lanes circling around. It was only natural that the motor vehicle drivers already on the roundabout took evasive action. Brakes were slammed on and some cars had to steer to other lanes to avoid them. It wasn't simply a case of a scary fast cyclist overtaking people.
There are no escort vehicles at these time trials - cyclists simply set off on a mapped route at timed intervals. On this occasion it seems that a bunch of them had a manly grudge against each other and had decided to group up for a race within a time trialing event.


Presently we do not need insurance to ride a bike on public roads.
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Sister Sledge
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PostPosted: 18:11 - 24 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aye. I've heard that bicycle insurance can be had and isn't expensive? Anyone?

Loads of interesting replies and information being posted. I've definitely learnt things which is always good.
I'm not anti-cyclist, but do feel the roads have changed enough to warrant some cycling rule changes.
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weasley
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PostPosted: 19:39 - 24 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’m a member of British Cycling, which includes third party liability insurance. Many organised events will be under the auspices of BC or a similar organisation.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 19:42 - 24 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most of the people who're keen cyclists with expensive bikes are going to have insurance. Wink
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