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Ste
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 Posted: 16:25 - 31 May 2019  Post subject: |
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Polarbear
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| Posted: 16:30 - 31 May 2019 Post subject: |
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It would be rather brilliant.
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Posted: 16:31 - 31 May 2019  Post subject: |
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| Diggs wrote: | I suppose it will come down to whether Boris intended the statement on the side of the bus to be taken literally to influence the vote in the clear and certain knowledge that it wasn't true. If this is the case, then he is guilty of something - not sure what the actual offence is without Googling it, but definitely guilty. |
He's no more, in fact less guilty than Cameron, Osbourne, May and all the others who've stretched the truth or used selective figures from both sides of the fence.
In fact, the £350M figure is actually a damn sight closer to the truth than most of the sh1te which we've been told during this propaganda war. The membership fee minus rebate is still over £270M a week. Then we have EU fines and carbon taxes to pay. Don't forget that much of the rebate from the EU, which brings the figure down to £270M a week, is in rebates which we must spend on what the EU tells us to, not what we want to spend it on.
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Polarbear
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bhinso
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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Diggs
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| Posted: 14:46 - 07 Jun 2019 Post subject: |
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That's interesting. The beak has decided that Boris has no offence to answer because the statement on the side of the bus formed part of an ongoing public debate and that all the relevant information was in the public realm at the time.
This raises the question of what politicians are actually accountable for when trying to sway public opinion during a campaign.
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Diggs
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| Posted: 14:49 - 07 Jun 2019 Post subject: |
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By that logic any politician can lie about a subject provided the lie takes place during an ongoing debate about the matter and the truth is available within the public realm should people wish to seek it. That has to be wrong! 
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Raffles
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Riejufixing
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| chickenstrip |
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 15:21 - 07 Jun 2019 Post subject: |
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| Diggs wrote: | By that logic any politician can lie about a subject provided the lie takes place during an ongoing debate about the matter and the truth is available within the public realm should people wish to seek it. That has to be wrong! |
It may be wrong but it has been the case since time immemorial. It's what politicians do.
Politicians are almost defined as people who wish to dominate others and tell them how to behave, without (usually) resorting to violence, certainly not on a personal level (because if it came to that, 9 times out of 10 they would lose). But they will go to any other extreme to get their way, including lying, and of course, using others to use force. You can't tell me the bus slogan is the first time you've become aware that a politician is playing fast and loose with the truth?! And yet this time, it seems to have triggered certain people more deeply than usual, even though the effect of the "untruth" probably will have less impact on them at a personal level than many others that virtually passed without comment, or at most with a 
If you wish to talk about playing with the truth, look at all the things Remainers have said will happen, will be the case, many which have not happened in the timescale they predicted, and many others which will probably not happen at all. Others they may be right about, just to keep things on a level, but they don't know that, before it has happened. At best they can make a prediction.
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 15:40 - 07 Jun 2019 Post subject: |
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Besides which, there are very few absolute truths in politics.
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bhinso
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Diggs
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| Posted: 15:57 - 07 Jun 2019 Post subject: |
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| chickenstrip YFPOS wrote: | | Diggs wrote: | By that logic any politician can lie about a subject provided the lie takes place during an ongoing debate about the matter and the truth is available within the public realm should people wish to seek it. That has to be wrong! |
It may be wrong but it has been the case since time immemorial. It's what politicians do.
Politicians are almost defined as people who wish to dominate others and tell them how to behave, without (usually) resorting to violence, certainly not on a personal level (because if it came to that, 9 times out of 10 they would lose). But they will go to any other extreme to get their way, including lying, and of course, using others to use force. You can't tell me the bus slogan is the first time you've become aware that a politician is playing fast and loose with the truth?! And yet this time, it seems to have triggered certain people more deeply than usual, even though the effect of the "untruth" probably will have less impact on them at a personal level than many others that virtually passed without comment, or at most with a
If you wish to talk about playing with the truth, look at all the things Remainers have said will happen, will be the case, many which have not happened in the timescale they predicted, and many others which will probably not happen at all. Others they may be right about, just to keep things on a level, but they don't know that, before it has happened. At best they can make a prediction. |
There is no doubt that both sides embroidered the truth and tried to sway public opinion by giving their own view on what could happen. What was different about this case was that a politician stated something as fact when clearly it was a lie, and was 'called out' on it. The reason I said what I did was because if one follows this logic, it means that it is acceptable in law for politicians to lie for political gain and to not have to worry about the consequences any more. That is different to stating opinion that may or may not prove correct in the future. A very important distinction and one we should be worried about...
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 15:59 - 07 Jun 2019 Post subject: |
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Nope, it was no different to all the other countless times politicians have been disingenuous.
There is only ONE reason that this one has become so high profile, and that is as part of the campaign to nullify the referendum result. Thankfully, it seems it has failed, and I'm not even a Boris groupie.
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Diggs
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| Posted: 16:17 - 07 Jun 2019 Post subject: |
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| chickenstrip YFPOS wrote: | Nope, it was no different to all the other countless times politicians have been disingenuous.
There is only ONE reason that this one has become so high profile, and that is as part of the campaign to nullify the referendum result. Thankfully, it seems it has failed, and I'm not even a Boris groupie. |
I agree with you - it was a politically motivated case and the beak acknowledged that. The difference between this and other times politicians have been caught lying to the public wasn't in the fact of the lie, it was in the fact that it was tested in law and found to be a legally acceptable practice under the circumstances.
It doesn't matter which politician it was, but it does matter that our glorious leaders will use this to justify blatantly lying to us again in the future, thus adding to the distrust of our political system and reducing the effectiveness of our democracy.
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 16:18 - 07 Jun 2019 Post subject: |
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| Diggs wrote: |
It doesn't matter which politician it was, but it does matter that our glorious leaders will use this to justify blatantly lying to us again in the future, thus adding to the distrust of our political system and reducing the effectiveness of our democracy. |
We likely won't even notice a change.
Politics just isn't an exact science. If Johnson had been successfully prosecuted on this, all politicians would have to effectively 
Hang him! 
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Last edited by chickenstrip on 16:22 - 07 Jun 2019; edited 1 time in total |
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Polarbear
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| Posted: 16:20 - 07 Jun 2019 Post subject: |
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Very simply there was no way the Judge was going to allow a trial.
To have politicians being responsible for what they say? It would end Democracy as we know it.
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Diggs
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| Posted: 19:31 - 07 Jun 2019 Post subject: |
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| mpd72 wrote: | | Diggs wrote: | By that logic any politician can lie about a subject provided the lie takes place during an ongoing debate about the matter and the truth is available within the public realm should people wish to seek it. That has to be wrong! |
They did. It was the entire Remain campaign aka “project fear”. |
No, most things said in 'Project Fear' were given as opinion on what may happen, i.e. speculation and shoe-gazing, rather than fact as per BJ's 350 billion. Doesn't matter how you dress it up, Boris blatantly lied to gain political advantage and our legal system effectively condoned it. Not good.
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 4 years, 317 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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