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Fecking speeding ticket but...

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Hetzer
Super Spammer



Joined: 19 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: 12:59 - 05 Jun 2019    Post subject: Fecking speeding ticket but... Reply with quote
I wasn't the rider anyway but unless the law has changed I don't know why they even bothered sending it. The offence was the 5th May, the NIP is dated the 3rd June and I received it today. As far as I'm aware the NIP has to be sent no longer than 14 days after the offence, this one has been sent almost one month after the offence. Is it still the law that it's thus null and void?

TIA, the rider will be chuffed if that's the case (then not so chuffed when I tear him a new arsehole).
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1198
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Joined: 24 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: 15:00 - 05 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Try Pepipoo. They’re experts at just this.
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stinkwheel
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Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 15:09 - 05 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
I believe it to still be the case that an NIP has to be posted within 14 days.

I'm pretty sure you still have to do something though, not just ignore it so make sure your friend doesn't just sit on it.

If it was someone other than the registered keeper riding, it may be that you as the registered keeper still have to provide details of who was riding. Failure to furnish is a seperate offence to the speeding issue.

So yes, it looks like he's got away with it BUT there may still be action that needs to be taken.

Obviously, if you furnish details of someone who wasn't insured to ride the bike, you're both in the shit.
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Riejufixing
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Joined: 24 Jun 2018
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PostPosted: 16:17 - 05 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
Obviously, if you furnish details of someone who wasn't insured to ride the bike, you're both in the shit.


If accused, invoke The Defence immediately.

Everyone should always say, before they lend anyone a bike, "You can ride this as long as you are properly insured to ride it", or words to that effect.
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duhawkz
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Joined: 03 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: 23:36 - 05 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Riejufixing wrote:
stinkwheel wrote:
Obviously, if you furnish details of someone who wasn't insured to ride the bike, you're both in the shit.


If accused, invoke The Defence immediately.

Everyone should always say, before they lend anyone a bike, "You can ride this as long as you are properly insured to ride it", or words to that effect.


Chanting that mantra wouldn't make a shits worth of difference if it turns out you've let someone use your vehicle uninsured, you'd be fucked and your insurer would be picking up the tab if it goes wrong.

It's your responsibility to ensure they are fully insured, you supposed actually check their certificate and license before letting them out on it.
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Riejufixing
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Joined: 24 Jun 2018
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PostPosted: 00:00 - 06 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
duhawkz wrote:
Riejufixing wrote:
Everyone should always say, before they lend anyone a bike, "You can ride this as long as you are properly insured to ride it", or words to that effect.


Chanting that mantra wouldn't make a shits worth of difference if it turns out you've let someone use your vehicle uninsured, you'd be fucked and your insurer would be picking up the tab if it goes wrong.

It's your responsibility to ensure they are fully insured, you supposed actually check their certificate and license before letting them out on it.

That is not true. If you want to think it is, that's fine; else read Stone's and see that it is a defence.
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Ste
Not Work Safe



Joined: 01 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: 00:01 - 06 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Riejufixing wrote:
else read Stone's and see that it is a defence.

Link?
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Riejufixing
World Chat Champion



Joined: 24 Jun 2018
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PostPosted: 00:14 - 06 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ste wrote:
Riejufixing wrote:
else read Stone's and see that it is a defence.

Link?

https://store.lexisnexis.co.uk/products/butterworths-stones-justices-manual-2019-skuuksku9781474311359SJMS682640/details

Or your local library should be able to get a copy.

There are only a few references online; one such is here:

https://www.motorists-lawyer.co.uk/content/services/driving-without-insurance.rhtm
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duhawkz
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Joined: 03 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: 00:15 - 06 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
please provide a source to support your claim i believe you are wrong.

https://www.jmw.co.uk/services-for-you/motoring-law/driving-without-insurance

Quote:
You also have to be very vigilant when allowing someone else to drive your vehicle. It is your responsibility to ensure that they have a valid policy of insurance that would allow them to drive your vehicle.

If you are convicted of causing or permitting someone to drive your vehicle without insurance, you will face the same penalty as though you had driven without insurance yourself.



it is not enough to simple say "you can do it if you're insured", you have to make sure, i.e check their certificate and make sure the policy is valid and cover them to drive your vehicle.

Otherwise you are just guilty as them.
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Ste
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Joined: 01 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: 00:20 - 06 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Riejufixing wrote:
https://store.lexisnexis.co.uk/products/butterworths-stones-justices-manual-2019-skuuksku9781474311359SJMS682640/details

Or your local library should be able to get a copy.

There are only a few references online; one such is here:

https://www.motorists-lawyer.co.uk/content/services/driving-without-insurance.rhtm

I don't need to go to the library, I was expecting that you'd be able to cite cases where that magic defence has worked.

"The fact that you did not know they were uninsured will not be a defence. However, if you gave them permission to drive on the strict condition they were in fact insured, yiu will be ok."

That's a bit of a weak defence without having any cases to reference. Laughing
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Riejufixing
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Joined: 24 Jun 2018
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PostPosted: 00:23 - 06 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
duhawkz wrote:
please provide a source to support your claim i believe you are wrong.

https://www.jmw.co.uk/services-for-you/motoring-law/driving-without-insurance

Quote:
You also have to be very vigilant when allowing someone else to drive your vehicle. It is your responsibility to ensure that they have a valid policy of insurance that would allow them to drive your vehicle.

If you are convicted of causing or permitting someone to drive your vehicle without insurance, you will face the same penalty as though you had driven without insurance yourself.



it is not enough to simple say "you can do it if you're insured", you have to make sure, i.e check their certificate and make sure the policy is valid and cover them to drive your vehicle.

Otherwise you are just guilty as them.


Again; you're just wrong on this point. I have highlighted the salient words in my quote. See my reply to Ste for further information.

Last edited by Riejufixing on 00:27 - 06 Jun 2019; edited 1 time in total
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Riejufixing
World Chat Champion



Joined: 24 Jun 2018
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PostPosted: 00:27 - 06 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ste wrote:
I don't need to go to the library, I was expecting that you'd be able to cite cases where that magic defence has worked.

Indeed, you don't have to go to the library. That's entirely up to you. You could order your copy of Stone's online; I think delivery is free.
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Ste
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Joined: 01 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: 00:36 - 06 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
duhawkz wrote:
you have to make sure, i.e check their certificate and make sure the policy is valid and cover them to drive your vehicle.

Isn't that's where it starts to be a bit of a grey area?

I could show you an insurance certificate which says I'm covered to drive vehicles owned by someone else but it might be a photoshop special. I could show you a genuine insurance certificate which says I'm covered to drive vehicles owned by someone else but I could have cancelled the policy yesterday.

Regardless of the mitigating circumstances, you'd still be guilty of permitting me to drive your car without insurance. Laughing
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Ste
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Joined: 01 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: 00:37 - 06 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Riejufixing wrote:
Ste wrote:
I don't need to go to the library, I was expecting that you'd be able to cite cases where that magic defence has worked.

Indeed, you don't have to go to the library. That's entirely up to you. You could order your copy of Stone's online; I think delivery is free.

Are you aware of any cases where that defence has worked?
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duhawkz
World Chat Champion



Joined: 03 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: 00:43 - 06 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
The Defence
The case against you can be challenged if you believe you were actually insured at the time, and can provide evidence of this within seven days of being stopped. If you fail to comply then a separate charge of failing to produce a certificate can be brought, but the likelihood is that this charge would be abandoned if you can show that you did have the proper insurance.

If you weren’t driving on a road or public place and can demonstrate this then you have not broken the law. This can be quite technical and places that are public at some times can be argued to be private at other times. Putting forth this argument requires experience of law and the court system and must be evaluated on a case by case basis.

In all of these cases, because it is an absolute offense, the burden of proof is on the defendant. In other words you are guilty until proven innocent.

Though it is difficult, it is far from impossible to defend these cases and within the statute that creates the offence there is a special statutory defence for employees. There is also the possibility that a case may have been started incorrectly, for example if police computers were out of date. Even if you admit the charge it is still quite possible to mitigate the charge on the basis of Special Reasons.

Special Reasons may include good reasons to believe that you had insurance at the time, such as your insurance provider failing to notify you of a change to your policy or someone telling you that you that you were insured. In these cases you have still technically broken the law but it will be possible to ask the court not to endorse penalty points on your licence or to fine you. There are also technical arguments that can be made on the basis of the type of permission given when being charged with permitting someone to drive without insurance.


here's what it says in the link you posted.

what is says is "you could have a defence for driving without insurance if you reasonably believed you had insurance when infact you didn't"

it gives an example there where your insurer has failed to notify you of a change to your policy

another example would be your boss telling you where insured to drive a company vehicle, because it is would reasonable to take that at face value and it may not be possible for you to view the insurance certificate yourself because it might be at a head office for example.

the is no defence there for you letting your mate ride your bike, on the basis that "you can do it if your insured", as I have already pointed out it is your responsibility to ensure they are.

Your only possible defence would be if they presented you with a false certificate which led you to reasonable believe a policy was in force
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duhawkz
World Chat Champion



Joined: 03 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: 00:47 - 06 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ste wrote:
duhawkz wrote:
you have to make sure, i.e check their certificate and make sure the policy is valid and cover them to drive your vehicle.

Isn't that's where it starts to be a bit of a grey area?

I could show you an insurance certificate which says I'm covered to drive vehicles owned by someone else but it might be a photoshop special. I could show you a genuine insurance certificate which says I'm covered to drive vehicles owned by someone else but I could have cancelled the policy yesterday.

Regardless of the mitigating circumstances, you'd still be guilty of permitting me to drive your car without insurance. Laughing


true but, you could argue that as the legal owner its up to you to call the insurer and check that the certificate is valid and the policy covers them to use the vehicle.
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duhawkz
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PostPosted: 00:53 - 06 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
I just find it easier not to let people use my vehicles, chances are that even if they have cover it would only be 3rd party so you'd still end up out of pocket if they wreck it.
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Riejufixing
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Joined: 24 Jun 2018
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PostPosted: 00:59 - 06 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ste wrote:
Are you aware of any cases where that defence has worked?

Yes!
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Riejufixing
World Chat Champion



Joined: 24 Jun 2018
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PostPosted: 01:06 - 06 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ste wrote:
duhawkz wrote:
you have to make sure, i.e check their certificate and make sure the policy is valid and cover them to drive your vehicle.

Isn't that's where it starts to be a bit of a grey area?

No. You either give the borrower permission, or you don't. If you make their use of your machine conditional, it is up to them to comply with your conditions, and they must do that for your permission to have been given.
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duhawkz
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PostPosted: 01:11 - 06 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Riejufixing wrote:
Ste wrote:
Are you aware of any cases where that defence has worked?

Yes!


links?
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Riejufixing
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Joined: 24 Jun 2018
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PostPosted: 01:15 - 06 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
duhawkz wrote:
here's what it says in the link you posted

The part you quoted discusses defences to driving without insurance, not the offence of "allowing and permitting".
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Ste
Not Work Safe



Joined: 01 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: 01:27 - 06 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Riejufixing wrote:
Ste wrote:
Are you aware of any cases where that defence has worked?

Yes!

Citation?
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Bhud
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PostPosted: 01:37 - 06 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Seen this pattern before.

Someone gives correct advice about the law. -> Disagreement. ->
Adversarial discussion. -> Some evidence given.

Kick in the nuts given ("Don't ask here, ask on Pepipoo", "Don't take take legal advice from randoms like this guy on the internet", etc.)

Overpaid and hated third-rate lawyer gets some beer money (£20 or whatever on a legal forum, or more through some other means) and a nice review.
Freemen-on-the-land types carry on doing what they do.
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Ste
Not Work Safe



Joined: 01 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: 01:45 - 06 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bhud wrote:
Some evidence given.

That bit hasn't happened yet. Laughing
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