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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 08:56 - 06 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ste wrote:
Bhud wrote:
Some evidence given.

That bit hasn't happened yet. Laughing

For the nth time, it's in Stone's, which has an index, and is easy to use, and which you can read free but not online (edit: your librarian or library assistant in your larger library will find it for you in their reference section, but you will not be allowed to remove it from the reading area, and I don't know their rules about photos/copying), and is not bloody prattypoo where people futilely argue and whitter for the sake of it just like here. Stone's Justices' Manual. Volume 3 I think. If people won't believe it, it's no skin off my nose
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andyscooter
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PostPosted: 17:46 - 06 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

yesterday saw something different

speed camera van with flashing amber lights on it

when parked up looked like a utility vehicle on side of the road in the distance

I know they sit there so slow anyway but they caught out loads of locals yesterday as local facebook grouo was full of its illeagal to look like something else its intrapment etc
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duhawkz
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PostPosted: 18:40 - 06 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its neither entrapment nor illegal to look like something else

Entrapment is when the police encourage you to do something illegal then arrest you for doing it.

And as far as I am aware it pefectly legal for them to do covert speed enforcement without warning.
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andy_uk
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PostPosted: 19:17 - 06 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

duhawkz wrote:
Its neither entrapment nor illegal to look like something else

Entrapment is when the police encourage you to do something illegal then arrest you for doing it.

And as far as I am aware it pefectly legal for them to do covert speed enforcement without warning.

Very true.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11898960/Police-hide-speed-cameras-in-tractors.html
It was against recommendations but not illegal.
Apparently something similar is (or was) used on the roads near Seaways Cafe (East Yorks), as well as a horsebox and camper van.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 22:53 - 06 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riejufixing wrote:
For the nth time, it's in Stone's, which has an index, and is easy to use, and which you can read free but not online (edit: your librarian or library assistant in your larger library will find it for you in their reference section, but you will not be allowed to remove it from the reading area, and I don't know their rules about photos/copying), and is not bloody prattypoo where people futilely argue and whitter for the sake of it just like here. Stone's Justices' Manual. Volume 3 I think. If people won't believe it, it's no skin off my nose

All we want is a name from the case.

Why be so obstructive about giving any details about the case where the defence worked?
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 23:47 - 06 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ste wrote:
All we want is a name from the case.

Why be so obstructive about giving any details about the case where the defence worked?


Don't use the "we" construct, please, it's an unbecoming and ridiculous tactic beloved of wibblers and similar.

I am not being "obstructive", you have exact details of what to look for and where to find it. I am most certainly not giving you details of my "case". You can look it up this defence in Stone's just the same as anyone else can, and as you have an accurate pointer, it should be easy to do that. If you can't be arsed, because it's not online, then as I say, no skin off my nose. If you want to research case law, try Newbury v. David (1974), although I doubt you'll find a details about that one online either.

Should I be in town when the library's open and I'm at a loose end, I will see whether I can note details, but that probably won't satisfy you either, I assume, so it'd all a bit of a waste of my effort. Oh well.

Edit: I've explained (I thought quite clearly) the concept in my comment posted: 01:06 - 06 Jun 2019. I think I'll just leave it at that. No point arguing about it, as you will see it's correct if you look in the book (nth+1).
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duhawkz
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PostPosted: 00:36 - 07 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riejufixing wrote:

No. You either give the borrower permission, or you don't. If you make their use of your machine conditional, it is up to them to comply with your conditions, and they must do that for your permission to have been given.


So what your suggesting is that, if I say "you may borrow my vehicle if you are insured"

then they have your permission if they are insured, but not if they are not insured in which case they would be taking with out the owners consent? which gets you off the hook because you haven't allowed them to drive uninsured.

if I've understood correctly what your saying.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 00:59 - 07 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riejufixing wrote:
Ste wrote:
All we want is a name from the case.

Why be so obstructive about giving any details about the case where the defence worked?


Don't use the "we" construct, please, it's an unbecoming and ridiculous tactic beloved of wibblers and similar.

I am not being "obstructive", you have exact details of what to look for and where to find it. I am most certainly not giving you details of my "case". You can look it up this defence in Stone's just the same as anyone else can, and as you have an accurate pointer, it should be easy to do that. If you can't be arsed, because it's not online, then as I say, no skin off my nose. If you want to research case law, try Newbury v. David (1974), although I doubt you'll find a details about that one online either.

Thank you, that's all that was needed. It took no time at all for me to find details of that case.

https://swarb.co.uk/newbury-v-davis-qbd-1974/

Next question... which case should I look up in Stones? It's all indexed but it will be much easier to find the case you're making reference to if I know the name(s) involved. Thumbs Up

Basically... someone is either getting done for taking without consent or someone is getting done for permitting their vehicle to be used without insurance.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 01:07 - 07 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

duhawkz wrote:
Riejufixing wrote:

No. You either give the borrower permission, or you don't. If you make their use of your machine conditional, it is up to them to comply with your conditions, and they must do that for your permission to have been given.


So what your suggesting is that, if I say "you may borrow my vehicle if you are insured"

then they have your permission if they are insured, but not if they are not insured in which case they would be taking with out the owners consent? which gets you off the hook because you haven't allowed them to drive uninsured.

if I've understood correctly what your saying.


"They have your permission if they are insured, but not if they are not insured" is the nature of the defence against "allowing and permitting". It's up to the borrower whether or not they comply with your stipulation, but that stipulation being made, you cannot be permitting them to use your vehicle without insurance if they do not have such.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 01:13 - 07 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ste wrote:
Thank you, that's all that was needed. It took no time at all for me to find details of that case.

https://swarb.co.uk/newbury-v-davis-qbd-1974/

Next question... which case should I look up in Stones? It's all indexed but it will be much easier to find the case you're making reference to if I know the name(s) involved. Thumbs Up

Basically... someone is either getting done for taking without consent or someone is getting done for permitting their vehicle to be used without insurance.


Whoa! Smile You have risen from your 'arris and done sometrhing! Smile I had npot found old Swarby's stuff in a search, well done, your fingersare nimbler. I am not refeerrring to "a case" (sic).Edit: ther TWOCing is a separate issue, and the uninsured borrower is unlikely to be "done" for it pro variis causis.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 06:28 - 07 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course I did. Razz All I needed was something to work from and 'Newbury v. David' was perfect for that. Mr. Green

Not sure the TWOC'ing would be a separate issue because if you say to me that "You can borrow my bike as long as you are properly insured to ride it" and I'm not insured but borrow it anyway, would that not be taking it without your consent?
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Hetzer
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PostPosted: 20:05 - 07 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

So if the lender states the guy showed him a piece of paper that had the appearance of being an insurance policy the lender is covered.
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iooi
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PostPosted: 20:15 - 07 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riejufixing wrote:

"They have your permission if they are insured, but not if they are not insured" is the nature of the defence against "allowing and permitting". It's up to the borrower whether or not they comply with your stipulation, but that stipulation being made, you cannot be permitting them to use your vehicle without insurance if they do not have such.


So just how do you prove this?

Yes you honour I asked him.... He said yes....

Do you think anyone will believe that?
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 20:37 - 07 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hetzer wrote:
So if the lender states the guy showed him a piece of paper that had the appearance of being an insurance policy the lender is covered.


If the borrower corroborated the lender's story then I can't see why not though if you were both smart you would not mention certificates, just that a told b that they were insured. The situation would already be that the borrower would be up for no insurance anyway so no skin off their nose but if they admitted showing you a false document that could be a lot more painful.

If they didn't back you up, or especially if they denied being the rider altogether then I can see the lender being left holding the baby.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 21:14 - 07 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hetzer wrote:
So if the lender states the guy showed him a piece of paper that had the appearance of being an insurance policy the lender is covered.


No. Again, no! The lender makes the borrower's borrowing conditional on the borrower having insurance. It's then up to the borrower to ensure that he has the necessary. If he rides without insurance, for whatever reason, the lender cannot be guilty of "permitting".
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 21:16 - 07 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regardless of the law you'd want to know some sort of insurance is valid...

Lend a vehicle to a friend and you name them on your policy. In the event of an accident the vehicle is covered.

Lend a vehicle and just ask "have you got your own insurance?" and they go "yeah, whatever man!" is your insurance policy going to cover any accident?

Usually if one has comprehensive cover on vehicle A then one has automatic Third Party cover on vehicle B (if you have permission to use it.) However the insurance company does not have to give you third party cover on other vehicles but they would have to stipulate that when you take out a policy.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 21:16 - 07 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

iooi wrote:
Riejufixing wrote:

"They have your permission if they are insured, but not if they are not insured" is the nature of the defence against "allowing and permitting". It's up to the borrower whether or not they comply with your stipulation, but that stipulation being made, you cannot be permitting them to use your vehicle without insurance if they do not have such.


So just how do you prove this?

Yes you honour I asked him.... He said yes....

Do you think anyone will believe that?


Why ask him? Why on earth do you think you need to do ask him?
You tell him what he must have, and that is all that's needed.

This isn't a difficult concept, so why it's apparently so very hard to grasp is beyond me.


Last edited by Riejufixing on 21:21 - 07 Jun 2019; edited 1 time in total
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 21:19 - 07 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

HardlyDavidson wrote:
Lend a vehicle and just ask "have you got your own insurance?" and they go "yeah, whatever man!" is your insurance policy going to cover any accident?


The defence is against a charge of permitting the use of your bike without insurance, that's all.

Do you think your insurance should cover someone you've lent your bike to? Why?
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 21:48 - 07 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Waiting for someone to mention the case of Pryor v. GMP. Laughing

Can't discuss insurance without it.
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P.
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PostPosted: 21:59 - 07 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riejufixing wrote:
Stuff


I don't dislike you. Please don't turn in to a moany miserable cunt.


Last edited by P. on 21:59 - 07 Jun 2019; edited 1 time in total
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 21:59 - 07 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riejufixing wrote:
The defence is against a charge of permitting the use of your bike without insurance, that's all.

Do you think your insurance should cover someone you've lent your bike to? Why?


Sorry, just thinking that before you even get into worrying about the law you might want to worry "if u iz gonna getz paid" in the event of an unfortunate accident.

Anyhoo, surely it just comes down to who is in charge of a vehicle at the time? If I lease a bike I don't own it but while I'm riding it is my personal responsibility to ensure it's well... insured! and roadworthy and taxed and ridden safely. None of that is the responsibility of the leasing company. Isn't it the same thing if you lend someone a bike?
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 22:01 - 07 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paddy. wrote:
Riejufixing wrote:
Stuff


I don't dislike you. Please don't turn in to a moany miserable cunt.


Thank you! I'm just feeling frustrated, that's all. I hope it will pass soon. Well, I know it will, as of now.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 22:06 - 07 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jewlio Rides Again LLB wrote:
Waiting for someone to mention the case of Pryor v. GMP. Laughing

Can't discuss insurance without it.


This is very interesting...

Quote:
...this did not satisfy the police who phoned Saga and were informed by them (wrongly as it turned out) that Mr Burton was only insured to drive other cars under his policy if the other vehicle had its own insurance cover. According to the police computer the Honda had no cover.


I've heard insurance companies state this before. I shall have to get the magnifying glass out on all my documents now. Thanx Thumbs Up
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 22:30 - 07 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then there's always the fun and games where the courts have held insurance to be valid after the vehicle insured has been sold to a third party.

THat really pissed off the insurance company that had to pay out.
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